bhaktatraveler

Posts from Shakti-fan, Astrobhadauria, Guest of Prabhupada are all of the nectar that we seek. To spead this sankirtan movement.

CBR

Dear shakti fan , dandavat pranam,<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

1.You gave Swami B.V. Narayan's Instructions on Venice Beach Temple as an example that he don't want to introduce Varnasram dharma, but shuddha bhakti, ... but he alegedly tries to do both.

2.You cannot endeavor for both, if you want to practice shuddha bhakti.. He himself acknowledged in this case that practicing varna-ashram dharma is detrimental for bhakti,– he forgot to specify: always! , and also please look the whole theory, as will be, and it is/ was understood and practiced by his followers (see also the case of the “Prabhupadanugas”), and here it is the hardcore:

3.Can you please quote where Srila Sanatana Gosvami in his Hari-bhakti-vilasa, speak that to practice bhakti one needs a daiva-varnasrama dharma?

2.In which scripture is spoken that previously was established daiva-varnsarama dharma instead of Varnashram dharma?

 

4. Or Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati had come to "reestablish" something that never existed, and Mahaprabhu rejected it in its true form: varnasrama-dharma.

5. There is no word of re - establishing a daiva-varnasrama which never existed, than if you read Mahabharata you will see that Arjuna did’t want to compete with Karna because he was not born as a Kshatria King, and was considered the son of a suta, not because Karna would not had the qualities of a Kshatria.

This is not an invention of smarta Brahmanism that would have created an alliance with the traditional gaudiya vaishnavas (that follow the tradition of gaudiya bhakti as always practiced), as Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati pretended.

Definition of smarta:<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>

smarta - one of a group of brahmans who uphold nonsectarian orthodoxy according to the Shankara Vedanta <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place></st1:place><u1:p></u1:p>

Adi Shankara siddhanta is followed by Smarta Brahmins<u1:p></u1:p>.

The three sampradayas (traditions) of Brahmins, especially in South India are the Smarta sampradaya, the Sri-vaishnava sampradaya and the Madhva sampradaya.

Dear Anadi

For the followers of this line, Gaudiya-Math and ISKCON, we do not care for your muni wranglings. We do as our Guru's say to us. Your points are nothing for us to address directly because it is only fault finding our Gurus conclutions and of no more importance i.e. NONE!

And you have used a statement I used to talk about my cousin Godbrother NM. This again is family. I can say not YOU. You have no right to jump in the middle as an outsider and make dirogatory comments based on what I have said. I spoke out of great respect for my older cousin, knowing him to be more advanced than me. But I speak because I have to say in MY family.

All we know or CARE to know is what our Prabhupada's have told us. Your continued on slot of diatribe fertal brain road blocks will not stop this movement/caravan from forward motion. You will see DVD take hold as presented. Guru's have spoken, their words are spiritually dynamic. Devotees of Lord Caitanya will also be developed from the 'most fallen' as it should be.

Your an outsider to this discusion as it is concerning a particular sampradya's preaching methods, that you are not part of. And show emnity toward! A family discussion. Which I can see by your above post, you have no respect for. Then you are now a troll.

Please stop posting offensive replies to this sampadaya's concideration as to "what" is Daivi-Varnasrama-Dharma. It, apparently, is not in you capasity to understand, nor help in any way to impliment. So you should not comment further, just to diswade any ideas of following our Guru's instructions.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

Burden of proof of outrageous claims is yours, not mine. So far it is very weak. One instance where eating meat was discussed. Not enough to risk eating meat, maybe for you but who else believes this? NOT ME!

All of Srila Prabhupada's vani, BG, SB conversations and lectures have the same discriptions and definitions of sudra and ksatriya. No difference, not an isolated occurrence. From 74 on Srila Prabhupada preached to instill this DVD in to ISKCON management, multiple times. There's a book of quotes with much more than I posted here. Get a book and read it.

Who beleives this? They are out there, they heard.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti raja

So now there is hope for meat eaters. Now because of his noticing a special instruction to him within Prabhupada's conversations, an instruction that is apparant only to him and one other, the meat eaters can now join the team.

 

Of course since 98% of Prabhupada's western disciples came from the meat eating class without worrying about their varna. Just the Holy name and prasadam was all medicine that Prabhupada gave them.

You know, I don't think even one time have you posted a piece of a conversation that I posted and then had a civil discusion with either Bk Devarsi or Me on the matter. But you have been an excelent help.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti raja

Comparing sudras to dogs does not help if one is trying to establish varnashrama dharma. No wonder nobody wants to be a sudra in Iskcon.

“First of all pay the fee; then you can come and learn Bhagavad-gita.” We never say that. But these so-called teachers who first of all bargain for a salary—“What salary will you give me?”—that is a dog’s concern. That is not a brahmana’s concern. A brahmana will never ask about a salary. A brahmana is eager to see that people are educated. “Take free education and be educated; be a human being”—this is a brahmana’s concern: You see? I came here not to ask for any money but to give instruction

Sudra is not dog. The brahmana that takes a salary is a dog.

CBr

That doesn't prove you have permission from Srila Prabhupada to eat meat. Let alone preach that you do. Only a fool would follow you.

An other one? do you boys do tag team matches?

You could please read and post the part of the conversation that you think I have wrong?

Only a fool speaks with no support from sadhu/guru. You spoke with no support. The entire conversation is about introducing DVD in ISKCON. A 12 yrs old child can understand.

CBr

Proxy. You are not a ksatriya. Say it; "I am not a ksatriya" now take a deep breath...

Your cherry picking again and it is just a diversion, what about the rest?

CBr

This is in no way quoting Srila Swami Maharaj.

Doesn't matter to me one way or an other. That's all fluff. Did you read post #114? Thats the real thing on my mind now with you. Did you read and what do you have to say?

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti raja

I was talking about you.

And I you

Post #114, read it.

CBr

Funny how those asking for proof of questionable claims are called fanatics. Kali Yuge in full force.

He has asked and been shown numerous times but rejects plan talk. And then says rediculous things in an attempt to discreadite Srila Prabhupada's plain words on the DVD subject. Again in post #114, I gave more. If I could post the whole conversation I would, it is just to big and doesn't post. All prof has been put forward.

The rejectable fanatic is the one that will not submit when shown evidence to countermaned his point.

The other fanatics are the cent-percent devotees of Krsna. Fanatic is not a bad word.

CBr

Ah, I never said Srila Swami Maharaj said that, it is the name of this thread, started by your buddy Bhakti Devarsi.

Yes, you did in post #111. And I posted more conversations snipits for your edification as who where and when. Have you looked? Post #114. Yes, you had to see.

CBr

Just a theory but maybe these fanatics saw the movie "The Deer Hunter" from 1978. To me that movie illustrated the connection between animal killing and modern warfare. Of course the day after we saw the movie in Visalia we went shooting in Three Rivers. Boys will be boys and Ksatriyas will be kings. Oh well.

The jester has entered the court. Joker-raja

CBr

Who set up 'Ritvikism'? Prabhupada. So you are saying Prabhupada's own system that he set up divorces Prabhupada from his own guru-varga? lol what nonsense. And please stop using this bogus term 'ritviksim' as it is a pathetic atempt to make the bonafide Ritvik System the Prabhupada put in place seem like a concoction. The term 'ritvikism' is bogus and never used by Prabhupada.

 

 

 

Prejudiced?! Did Prabhupada also have a predudiced view when he gave orders not to associate with the Gaudia Math and that none of his godbrothers are qualified to be acharya? So following Prabhupada's orders is being predudiced and negative?

 

 

 

 

Right if your a Ritvik your a deerhunter now lol this is ludicrous!! utter madness!!

 

I know this is an off topic and I appologise.

 

Hare Krishna

Passion for Srila Prabhupada! I love it, it's like a gulabjaman.

CBr

Caturbahu das Bhakti raja Prabhu I hear you loud and clear and agree with you 100%

 

Again I find if shocking when devotees like Mahak completely dismiss so many quotes by Prabhupada and contradict them.

 

There is nothing to debate here Prabhupada made some very clear statements on the matter, his quotes are clear.

 

That some heavily conditioned individuals who are attracted to Krishna con. could be given some leeway so that they can gradually come to the level of the 4 regs.

 

Thats it bas.

Thank you I think it is quite rudimentry plain also.

CBr

Remember Srila Prabhupada had his Srila Prabhupada:

Yes, parampara is in tact. Thank you!

CBr

Parivrajakacarya: Would the...? The persons who would take part in such program, they would have to be devotees in the first place. Is that...?

Prabhupada: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this varnasrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position.

Parivrajakacarya: So the students, also, they must all be devotees.

Prabhupada: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul.

Satsvarupa: And the idea is that after they’ve finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as vaisya or...

Prabhupada: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody’s taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. “Plunder all these big men.” Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopis, even up to the point of becoming prostitute—for Krishna. So for Krishna’s sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Krishna we have to do that.

Hridayananda: So, Prabhupada, in our temples, we have so many devotees. Should the devotees...?

Prabhupada: They should be engaged.

Hridayananda: Should they be trained in a particular...?

Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plough department, agriculture.

Hridayananda: Those who cannot preach.

Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as kshatriya or vaisya, or as sudra.

Hridayananda: And sometimes...

Prabhupada: :Not he’s sudra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy.

Caturbahu das Bhakti raja

It didn't post, sorry! must be to big. But I will post another snipit.

CB-r

Ah, but try and see that I have no interest in proving you wrong. If you have the evidence that clearly, without a doubt states that eating meat as an initiated disciple is bona fide then present it. I am willing to accept it, I have no sentimental feeling against killing, my body is a battlefield as I type this, but I neither slay nor am slain. That isn't the point. The question about if the Acharya intends his disciples to eat meat based on the conversation you quoted from 74, that is the question. I haven't seen enough to suggest that it is the case. Preliminary help extends how long? 30 years into your practicing life? Is this really what he wanted or is it that you are too charmed with the thought of being a mighty king, a ksatriya? He said if they are intelligent they will realize it isn't worth it. Please with an open heart consider this.

Prabhupada never said anything about 'preliminary help' Hrdayananda did....your cherry picking to prove wrong when the truth is plain.............

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Krishna consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they’ll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Krishna consciousness. And this is the method—varnasrama.

Hridayananda: So just to clarify, Prabhupada, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnasrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gita and then, side by side, they learn a...

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

Hridayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: But if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you’ll find, the kshatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That’s all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, “Oh, the ruler is very strong.” And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. “Kill him.” That’s all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

Thanks for the advice. Obviously from my life experience I am very passionate about caring for animals, and feel saddened from experience. Sometimes sitting and watching birds is nice. Slowing life down and appreciating Lord GaurangaKrsna in all things are special moments. Each creature is individual and full of character. Even the trees and plants are conscious...as you know.

 

Also I appreciate your post and know this is what Srila Prabhupada had in mind. Mercy is unlimited, and to raise all souls to higher vision is the desire of great Acarya's. But I feel these things must be taught well and by example.

 

Caturbahu dasa...do you still hunt animals?

For the record?

CB-r

I don't know what this may have to do with the subject at hand, but here you go. Sorry some of us work and can't post on demand:

 

 

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 4.17.25

 

 

 

 

amusham kshut-paritanam

artanam paridevitam

samayishyami mad-banair

bhinnayas tava medasa

 

 

 

 

SYNONYMS

amusham -- of all of them; kshut-paritanam -- suffering from hunger; artanam -- of the distressed; paridevitam -- the lamentation; samayishyamiI shall pacify; mat-banaih -- by my arrows; bhinnayah -- being cut totava -- of you; medasa -- by the flesh.

 

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

Now, with the help of my arrows, I shall cut you -- pieces; to pieces and with your flesh satisfy the hunger-stricken citizens, who are now crying for want of grains. Thus I shall satisfy the crying citizens of my kingdom.

 

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

 

Here we find some indication of how the government can arrange for the eating of cow flesh. It is here indicated that in a rare circumstance when there is no supply of grains, the government may sanction the eating of meat. However, when there is sufficient food, the government should not allow the eating of cow's flesh just to satisfy the fastidious tongue. In other words, in rare circumstances, when people are suffering for want of grains, meat-eating or flesh-eating can be allowed, but not otherwise. The maintenance of slaughterhouses for the satisfaction of the tongue and the killing of animals unnecessarily should never be sanctioned by a government.

 

As described in a previous verse, cows and other animals should be given sufficient grass to eat. If despite a sufficient supply of grass a cow does not supply milk, and if there is an acute shortage of food, the dried-up cow may be utilized to feed the hungry masses of people. According to the law of necessity, first of all human society must try to produce food grains and vegetables, but if they fail in this, they can indulge in flesh-eating. Otherwise not. As human society is presently structured, there is sufficient production of grains all over the world. Therefore the opening of slaughterhouses cannot be supported. In some nations there is so much surplus grain that sometimes extra grain is thrown into the sea, and sometimes the government forbids further production of grain. The conclusion is that the earth produces sufficient grain to feed the entire population, but the distribution of this grain is restricted due to trade regulations and a desire for profit. Consequently in some places there is scarcity of grain and in others profuse production. If there were one government on the surface of the earth to handle the distribution of grain, there would be no question of scarcity, no necessity to open slaughterhouses, and no need to present false theories about over-population.

 

Please don't turn this into some license to eat cows in ashrams. This is the 108th post in this topic BTW.

This not to condone killing cows. It is emergency only, after much effort in regular activites to produce food stuff has failed.

Very good it is the only place in the Bhagvatam that a cow is killed in service to the population by a religious king.

What is the point? Get over that which you(figurative) do not know much about. Have a cool mind and study for some time before just rejecting at first glance. Re-read all these conversations in the company of others and talk about the posibility that all I and Bk Devarsi have said could be true as presented.

Instead of reading to find us wrong, switch places and read to prove us right. Try it. The initial reaction to DVD is knee jerk, jusy like the reaction to killing a cow was. But cow can be killed under the most extreme conditons. DVD is not even that extreme, it is just vedic for devotee's. And all varnas are concidered vaisnava, not just brahman.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

What do you mean by 'for practice and beyond?'

Beyond is application of practice.

CB-r

Is any one here who's interested in Mother Goddess KALI!?!?!? If so, please rite to me on Private Messages!

No, don't know a thing about this Goddess. Is Kali the same as Candi? I do know that once a month sudra can offer wine/alcohol to her(Candi). Do you know any of the mantras for this?

Hare Krsna,, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

I don't understand why you would want to shoot such a creature. His face is beautiful isn't it?

 

Bhaktatraveller, I remember as a child I was given my first gun at around nine years of age. Each year my father used to go away on shooting trips in the Outback of Australia. He used to bring home presents for me. Goat horns, goat skins, used bullets and things like that. In fact he still carries a two inch bullet hanging of his key ring.

 

I can remember as a child I used play in our back yard. Over the back fence there was paddocks to a river. So I used to go off hunting with my BB rifle and shoot birds. I still recall the last animal I shot. It was an australian magpie (no pun intended-or the FBI might get called:rolleyes:). They are quite a large bird, and very beautiful. After I shot it I walked up to it...it was gasping for breath as it lay dying. I think at that point (I was eleven years old) I realized that what my father was teaching me was not right. I looked into the magpies eyes, while it was dying, and it was looking back at me. I saw it's expression, it's agony and pain. I saw it was conscious and feeling. It is the last animal I ever shot.

 

Have you ever looked into the eyes of animals. Seen their internal expressions. Their consciousness, their minds, their feelings...their beauty.

 

Srila Prabhupada said this...Srila Prabhupada said that. Inability to back up with scripture, you continually say. It is all irrelevant once you see the beauty of the soul within. No need to back up with Prabhupada said...this and that.

 

I could post a picture of a big juicy deer steak (from google) with a side dish of potatoes and peas. But I am not that insensitive. Wake up Prabhu!

Nice story, Or to say sad story. I'm sorry you had to experience the death of anything.

Yes, I have looked into the eyes of death, what I have killed. It is for practice and beyond.

But you miss the point of DVD, thats OK too, I guess. Please do not post the picture, I have no attraction. Again you miss the point of ksatriya's practice. You will need to study SB, BG, conversations and chant 64 rounds a day for some time before you can understand it. Maybe Mahabharata too, Ganguli edition. Srila Prabhupada understood and gave it to me.

What about the cow killing? do you have an answer?

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

I don't understand why you would want to shoot such a creature. His face is beautiful isn't it?

I'm asking the big scholars that rejected all I posted on DVD to test them a little bit or you, if you would like. I did not say shoot either, kill is the word I used. Kill a cow is the question. All the nay sayers especially. At least four I think there were. Yes? It is just mental exersize. Who's in?

CB-r

I would say that of all the urges, the urge of lust or sex, is the strongest. I read somewhere that Srila Prabhupada said that lust is the cause of all problems. It seems to be very true. Perhaps you can throw more light on that.

Vaidhi bhakti is the solution to lust. Lust is way beyond just sex, that's only a gross messure. Fame, aderation, I, me, mine and distinction are the eliments of the last covering of the spirit soul. It was lust or the subtle eliments that ensnared us after our fall from Krsna's service, It was the cause of this fall. Don't know much more, you need a brahman to explain better, I'm definately second class.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja