bhaktatraveler

But the householders that aren't following know they aren't following, that it is illicit (at least they should know). And Caturbahu Prabhu isn't acdvocating doing anything illicit, he is saying it would be within the regs, just different for different varnas. So it is from his perspective anyway.

Thank you Braj, but really I haven't said anything of my own here. I hope to repeat as good as I can from Srila Prabhupada and not embelish nor neglect information as to DVD cosmology.

And yes, you have explain it rightly. Still 4 regs are there, but only once in a month for meat, intox, sex.

So much trouble for once a month meat and then having to take the animals body next to fulfil the promise of reciprecation. Be that as it may, it is still within 4 regulative priciples of the Krsna comsciousness movement.

Even in marriage it is so much botheration for a little taste of sex. Best to give it up. But we cann't, so there is consideration of marriage. With duties and great responsibility.

CB-r

CB-r

I want to be a hare krsna, but I still drink, still smoke pot and cigs, I play the lottery and go to vegas now and then, and have sex every now and then with whenever the urge strikes. I eat two eggs for breakfast, and eat meat every now and then, but Im really a good person. Since I work for a living, Im a sudra.

 

So can I still be a devotee, even though I dont care one iota about "pillars of Spiritual life", regulative principles, pleasing my spiritual master, and my whole consciousness is that I will do what I want and never listen to anyone who says I cant do what I want. And when I read, my mind will not register anything other that permission to carry on with my way to godhead.

 

I mean, really, Im the master here, why should I care about any discipline.

 

mahaksadasa

Devotees can come from all spheres of life. If you do not improve at least up to the regulative principles of DVD, then you will not please Srila Prabhupada.

4/20/74 conver. Hyderabad

Prabhupada: Any engagement, any engagement for Krishna, he is Vaishnava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaishnava. He is above all these.

I see 'according to the directions' don't you Mahaksa? 2 weeks before this conversation the directions were given for sudra as once in a month for intox and meat, on dark moon night. Not as in your above post as a daily regiment or by slaughterhause.

CB-r

So no second initiation. It doesn't say no 4 regulative principals for 1st initiation.

Yes, Yes. Every thing he gets........initiations still go on.

4/20/74 Hyderabad

Nitai: One question came up the other day when I was talking with this clergyman.

Prabhupada: Clergyman?

Nitai: Yes, that man I was talking to was a clergyman.

Prabhupada: Where he was?

Nitai: He was on the airplane when we were coming here to Hyderabad. And he was asking what our program was. And I was telling him that first of all, in order to relieve the confusion of society, we wanted to establish the Vedic culture with this varnasrama system. And he asked me what would be the program that we would have for a man who works in the factory...

Prabhupada: He is a sudra.

Nitai: Would we retrain him as a farmer?

Prabhupada: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that sudra also.

Nitai: He can remain in the factory.

Prabhupada: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brahmana. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, sudra is as important as the brahmana, provided he helps the movement, Krishna conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a sudra should be working as a brahmana, no. But everyone should be engaged in Krishna consciousness. That is required.

Nitai: So in that case he is a sudra, and he is also doing the work of a...

Prabhupada: Then he is not a sudra. One who is engaged in Krishna’s service, he is neither brahmana nor sudra. He is devotee. He is brahma-bhuta. Brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. Apparently he looks like sudra. Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more. Vaishnave jati-buddhih. Therefore anyone who takes, “Oh, here is an American Vaishnava, here is an Indian Vaishnava,” that is naraki. He is Vaishnava. That understanding required.

Mahamsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Krishna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mahamsa: He is a devotee. He is not a sudra making garlands.

Prabhupada: No. He is not a ordinary gardener.

Pancadravida: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges.

Prabhupada: Any engagement, any engagement for Krishna, he is Vaishnava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaishnava. He is above all these.

Pancadravida: A sudra, if he is working, he cannot take brahmana initiation, but he can take hari-nama, is that it?

Prabhupada: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brahmana, as sudra, as kshatriya, like that.

sa gunan samatityaitan

brahma-bhuyaya kalpate

mam ca vyabhicarini

bhakti-yogena yah sevate

[bg. 14.26]

A devotee, because he is working as a sudra, he is not a sudra; neither he is a brahmana. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the sudra’s work nicely—let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?

Mahamsa: Does he get second initiation?

Prabhupada: Everything he will get.

Mahamsa: He gets.

Prabhupada: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: “Now he has become fully competent Vaishnava.” Just like master is teaching the servant, “Now you give massage in this way, this way.” But that does not mean he has become servant.

Pancadravida: What if the person working as sudra says, “I can do so much. I can...,”

Prabhupada: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brahmana nor sudra. He may act like a sudra, but he is not sudra. He may act like a brahmana; he is not brahmana. He is Vaishnava. Just like gopis. The gopis, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brahmana class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramya kacid upasana vrajavadhu-vargena. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Krishna. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Krishna? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Krishna. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brahmana, a sudra or vaisya. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. The only business is to see: sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... [sB 1.2.6]. Aiye. Hare Krishna. Jaya. That is wanted.

I was referring to the bhaktisiddhanta quote. Sorry for confusing you.

Yes I was looking at that too! And I see Srila Prabhupada's new DVD mood for ISKCON as coming from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada. This is the thing, nothing is being invented outside of our Guru parampara, just continuing to unfold.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Not necessarily. sudra and devotee acting as sudra may be different. there are taken from different conversations so maybe people here are misunderstanding.

better to be careful i agree.

No different, Prabhupada says to do in ISKCON, though acting as sudra he is still devotee. Regs are not missing. Regs are different for different varnas.

CB-r

This definitely isn't referring to those taking initiation but attending a meeting. To think otherwise really is misunderstanding the point.

this is not evidence to support disciples eating meat.

All of these DVD conversations refer to ISKCON in particular and the greater world in general.

The death of your creapers gentlemen is your adversion, rejection with no DVD post to back up you contentions that this is not for ISKCON. IT IS GET OVEN IT.........

Coversation on February 14 1977.

Satsvarüpa: Religion professors.

Prabhupäda: Whatever it may be, higher studies...

Satsvarüpa: Yes. “Send us some of your men.”

Prabhupäda: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That’s all. This is only interest.

Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.

Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform...

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

(CB-r) Has to mean from 4 reg's or?

Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You’ll be ha...

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

Yes, this is for ISKCON and all Srila Prabhupada's disciples. Accept or show the conversation context wrong. This is great copy, there is no mistake.

Hare Krsna

Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

TRANSLATION

 

All the rules and regulations apply equally to the householder and the sannyāsī, the member of the renounced order of life. The gṛhastha, however, is given permission by the spiritual master to indulge in sex during the period favorable for procreation.

 

PURPORT

 

It is sometimes misunderstood that a gṛhastha, a householder, is permitted to indulge in sex at any time. This is a wrong conception of gṛhastha life. In spiritual life, whether one is a gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsī or brahmacārī, everyone is under the control of the spiritual master. For brahmacārīs and sannyāsīs there are strong restrictions on sexual indulgence. Similarly, there are strong restrictions for gṛhasthas. Gṛhasthas should indulge in sex life only in accordance with the order of the guru. Therefore it is mentioned here that one must follow the orders of the spiritual master (guru-vṛttir vikalpena). When the spiritual master orders, the gṛhastha may accept sex life. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (7.11). Dharmāviruddho bhūteṣu kāmo 'smi: indulgence in sex life without disobedience to the religious rules and regulations constitutes a religious principle. The gṛhastha is allowed to indulge in sex life during the period favorable for procreation and in accordance with the spiritual master's order. If the spiritual master's orders allow a gṛhastha to engage in sex life at a particular time, then the gṛhastha may do so; otherwise, if the spiritual master orders against it, the gṛhastha should abstain. The gṛhastha must obtain permission from the spiritual master to observe the ritualistic ceremony of garbhādhāna-saḿskāra. Then he may approach his wife to beget children, otherwise not. A brāhmaṇa generally remains a brahmacārī throughout his entire life, but although some brāhmaṇas become gṛhasthas and indulge in sex life, they do so under the complete control of the spiritual master. The kṣatriya is allowed to marry more than one wife, but this also must be in accordance with the instructions of the spiritual master. It is not that because one is a gṛhastha he may marry as many times as he likes and indulge in sex life as he likes. This is not spiritual life. In spiritual life, one must conduct one's whole life under the guidance of the guru. Only one who executes his spiritual life under the direction of the spiritual master can achieve the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. If one desires to advance in spiritual life but he acts whimsically, not following the orders of the spiritual master, he has no shelter. Yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. Without the spiritual master's order, even the gṛhastha should not indulge in sex life. SB 7.12.11

-----------------------

It should be also clear to any sober person that the present global system of taxing people is so much kali-yuga that to open a vedic farm is even impossible when someone is so materially fortunate to be the proprietor of his own farm with sufficient feedlots. In order for a farmer to make an income for properly maintaining his family and pay his bills he has to first of all successfully sell his products. And exactly here is the crux, if he doesnt produce foodstuffs on his farm which are specified by the mleccha global governments his farm runs straight into bankruptcy. Next he has to borrow on mortgage in order to survive and finally he will give his indebted farm to the bank for a song. This is reality, everything else an illusion.

Hare Krsna.

This post is compleatly off topic. Then I guess we did diverge a bit. LOL. But on a favored topic of mine. The title is a bit misleading too when we read the verse used for support. Your text is also not congruent with the verse either.

None the less what you say is very true about todays farmer. How to help is a big broad subject and has many 'ifs' in it as not. We can hope to help by example, show what to do by having in place a working village to give encouragement and support. Tall order but if we do not start for real then never will it be done. A long journey starts with the first step. That is at least the correct idea of DVD and the particulars included.

CB-r

That could be a tricky situation. You could have all these meat-eating folks claiming to be sudra and thereby authorized to eat meat with no attempt to give it up. In effect, the 4 regulative principles would become 3 because in kali-yuga, everyone is a Sudra. Therefore everyone can eat meat according to your post.

 

I don't think it was intended that way. The DVD system is great but the 4 principles cannot be compromised within that system.

Prabhupada says that the restriction is not for encouragement, but a deterrent to the slaughterhouse and unregulated killing of animals. And equates the once a month meat reg to be the same as once a month sex reg in marriage. Still concidered that 4 regs are intact. Regulation means restriction.

This is from Srila Prabhupada and not some concoctions of a fertal mind like so much now days is. It is not for us to speculate and give OUR opinion. Take the opinion of Guru and be safe, otherwise we tread a dangerous path. I have stayed true and not post contrary to Prabhupada. The nay sayers should take note that I have given a true account and 'they' are contrary. This is from Prabhupada's vani, not made up.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhatki-raja

I don't see how the King of Bhakti could have so little devotion as to not be able to give up an ignorant activity such as eating meat. Surely even if this is tolerated by Srila Prabhupada for someone starting out it isn't the ideal and not the behavior of a devotee. What necessity exists for this 'service?'

The King is repeating Srila Prabhupada's words, you should be a little more respectful to those words. If there is disagreement, still Guru should not be disrespected. To much National Enquirer mood on this thread from people that claim such a high place by retoric, as to speak non stop whether or not they offernd or otherwise condem the instructions of Srila Prabhupada.

No one said this was going to easy, understanding the different direction for ISKCON, but you should open you hearts and stop with the insult to Prabhupada's vani. I wonder what are the priorities of this form. I have not said anything that is not said first by Prabhupada, in the context it was spoken. And the form members make fun, poke, chide, insult and otherwise demean the posts that are just taken word for word form the source of Guru of ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada. What is wrong with you people?

You cann't defeat DVD for ISKCON, so you like monkey throw rocks? And stand on high and claim Vaisnava standards? No, you have not acted like Vaisnava, very much less than that.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Concessions? I say nonsense. For a so called vaisnava to clamor for a right to eat dead carcasses, to eat bhoga, to eat garbage that is not offered to the supreme lord, what nonsense.

 

Well here is Srila Prabhupada's nonsense regarding concessions.

March 14 1974 Morning walk, Vrndaban.

 

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hridayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

Hridayananda: But never the cow.

Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat.

 

Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition.

 

And here is the nonsense about how to go about pleasing the GODDESS KALI.

July 11 1976 Evening Darshan

 

That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing, there will be a class of men who will eat meat—to give them some concession. So this is recommended, “All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice.” Amongst the Hindus, just like Kali-puja, Durga-puja, the animal eaters, they are given this concession, that “If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kali,” and this goddess Kali-worshiping is recommended on the amavasya, the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he’ll automatically give it up.

 

“So much botheration, better give it up.” Actually deny. “Yes, you can eat once in a month at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal...” These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he’ll accept it, “Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up.”

 

Compassion for all.

If the DVD theorists were right, I believe most of the world would take to Krishna Consciousness like fish to water. Meat eating allowed and perhaps a little bit of intoxication. So why not. And needless to say, most of them would choose the Sudra or Ksatriya varna so they can eat meat & carry weapons.

This is not a license for a free for all either. Still restictions are in place. Like sex for procreation, it is once a month only. Intoxiction also, same same, 1 time a month for sudra.

But I agree, that this could be a new wave to hit the bead bags for 16 rounds. Plus 4 varnas and 4 asrama, a killer combo. Pun intended.

No unresticted gun carring for sudra, only in service to ksatriyas. On duty, like for guarding.

Hare Krsna,

CB-r

Caturbahu prabhu ... so what kinds of meat do you eat?

 

I ask because chicken & fish are hardly challenging kills, in that it won't help your Ksatriya skills. So I imagine you're probably killing some of the bigger animals and eating them. Please pardon me if the question sounds offensive but it's a delicate subject and there must be more clarity, so the question.

Not delicate to me, Guru has spoken, I'm only repeating.

Ksatriya killing means dangerous animals, boar, bear, big cats. Deer is also included though. No birds, rabbits, fish or any of the sudra type offerings to Mother Durga.

The hunt must be by stalking and not hidden then shooting. Nor feeding, then waiting in a tree. Like a big cat you will not have 100% success, many misses, much stealthy walking, stalking. Great fun for the wariror mind.

SB 6.4.9

TRANSLATION

By nature’s arrangement, fruits and flowers are considered the food of insects and birds; grass and other legless living entities are meant to be the food of four-legged animals like cows and buffalo; animals that cannot use their front legs as hands are meant to be the food of animals like tigers, which have claws; and four-legged animals like deer and goats, as well as food grains, are meant to be the food of human beings.

PURPORT

By nature’s law, or the arrangement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one kind of living entity is eatable by other living entities. As mentioned herein, dvi-padam ca catush-padah: the four-legged animals (catush-padah), as well as food grains, are eatables for human beings (dvi-padam). These four-legged animals are those such as deer and goats, not cows, which are meant to be protected. Generally the men of the higher classes of society—the brahmanas, kshatriyas and vaisyas—do not eat meat. Sometimes kshatriyas go to the forest to kill animals like deer because they have to learn the art of killing, and sometimes they eat the animals also. Sudras, too, eat animals such as goats.

CB-r

Yes it is as clear an instruction as is possible. Yet the animal killing advocates just try to ignore it. Amazing.

Srila Prabhupada advicates killing practice for the ksatriya, you are on the edge of aparadhi. Oh! I forgot you are not a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Still you are on the edge.

Not rejected, augmented by Srila Prabhupada.......you reject the augmentation. Natural in your present condition.

Conv. 3/14/74

Hridayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hridayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

Hridayananda: But never the cow.

Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition

(End quote)

That means reg's are intact.

Similary sex life in marriage is the example of how to understand regulated meat eating.

Later in the same conversation......

Hridayananda: So just to clarify, Prabhupada, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnasrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gita and then, side by side, they learn a...

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

Hridayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: But if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you’ll find, the kshatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That’s all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, “Oh, the ruler is very strong.” And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. “Kill him.” That’s all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

Yaduvara: How would the kshatriyas kill the animals?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow?

Prabhupada: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kshatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun.

CB-r

Guest .... andra!! LOL!

 

 

 

 

Agree with all your points. The asrama must be respected. One who cannot adhere to the rules of that asrama must step out it.

 

Actually, come to think of it ... if one cannot control his or her urges, one may simply be honest about it and go to another asrama. Such as from sannyasa asrama to grihastha. While it may seem like a step down, Grhastaha is also a recognized asrama. UI therefore do not understand why some people try to conceal their defects adn remain in that particular category (asrama) while it is possible to just go to another category and satisy the urges. In this context, by urge, I mean the desire to enjoy with the opposite sex.

This from the story of the elephant Gajenra.......

SB 8/2/30

TRANSLATION

Thereafter, because of being pulled into the water and fighting for many long years, the elephant became diminished in his mental, physical and sensual strength. The crocodile, on the contrary, being an animal of the water, increased in enthusiasm, physical strength and sensual power.

PURPORT

In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with maya we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Krishna consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Krishna consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varnasrama—brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacarya, grihastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyasa.

asvamedham gavalambham

sannyasam pala-paitrikam

devarena sutotpattim

kalau panca vivarjayet

[Cc. Adi 17.164]

(Brahma-vaivarta Purana)

From this we can understand that in this age the sannyasa-asrama is forbidden because people are not strong. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed us an example in taking sannyasa at the age of twenty-four years, but even Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya advised Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to be extremely careful because He had taken sannyasa at an early age. For preaching we give young boys sannyasa, but actually it is being experienced that they are not fit for sannyasa. There is no harm, however, if one thinks that he is unfit for sannyasa; if he is very much agitated sexually, he should go to the asrama where sex is allowed, namely the grihastha-asrama. That one has been found to be very weak in one place does not mean that he should stop fighting the crocodile of maya. One should take shelter of the lotus feet of Krishna, as we shall see Gajendra do, and at the same time one can be a grihastha if he is satisfied with sexual indulgence. There is no need to give up the fight. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore recommended, sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. One may stay in whichever asrama is suitable for him; it is not essential that one take sannyasa. If one is sexually agitated, he can enter the grihastha-asrama. But one must continue fighting. For one who is not in a transcendental position, to take sannyasa artificially is not a very great credit. If sannyasa is not suitable, one may enter the grihastha-asrama and fight maya with great strength. But one should not give up the fighting and go away.

CB-r

I have personally found a marked switch from the reflection of the name to the shadow of the name, ever since I got real about my true material situation by understanding where I fit in Daivi Varnasrama Dharma, and knowing more about DVD has helped me understand where others around me are really at.

 

So I make much less offenses, I am able to judge people by their fruit without being afraid of "offending" them, and thus I am much more comfortable with myself, and do not project my disappointment in life upon the name while I am chanting.

 

Srila Prabhupada must be pleased with these efforts, because my chanting has taken a quantum leap, and I am ecstatic about it.

 

Hare Krsna

What Devarsi said is very good, but for me I find in addition to that, the earlier I get up in the morning, like between 2-4, the better for my mind to be calm. The modes are especially condusive at that time for chanting. Even up till sun raise, after that I'm dead for good rounds an average.

The difference between goodness and passion.

If I'm chanting during the day it is mostly gibber japa. unless I find some seclutions from outside influences.

CB-r

That is in line with Srila Swami Maharaj wanting the varnashrama colleges set up. In my opinion, once they have faith, then they take initiation. That should be the way it is handled right now, but surely the faithless get initiated anyway. My experience has been that I see people all too eager to get someone initiated when they should just be encouraging them to develop their faith. Like some sort of sport to win souls or something. 'Our team got another point!' I think this is what Srila Swami Maharaj was saying when he was referring to the people recommending bhaktas for initiation. I know devotees are also eager to share the mercy, so please forgive my words here, it's not like the intention is necessarily wrong. Just the outcome if the devotee isn't ready to follow the regulations.

Your opinon has been defeated numerous times. Yet you still speak the same errorneous standards for ISKCON's DVD cosmology.

CB-r

Bhaktirasamrtasindhu, verse 1.2.246, by Sri Rupa Goswami:

 

sammatam bhakti-vijnanam bhakty-angatvam na karmanam

Translation: The consensus of those knowledgeable of bhakti is that karma (varnashrama duties) is not an anga (part) of bhakti.

 

Visvanatha Cakravarti commentary:

 

The statements of Visnu Purana that approve of varnashama as bhakti have been spoken only to encourage those persons who are not qualified to engage in pure bhakti.

Srila Rupa Goswami states in this verse that the consensus (sammatam) of those thorougly experienced in bhakti, the pure devotees, including even Parasara Rsi, is thus:

O Maitreya, King Bharata simply said, "O master of sacrifice, O Acyuta, O Govinda, Madhava, Ananta, Keshava, Krishna, Visnu, Hrishikesha". He said nothing else, even in his dreams, and by engaging in chanting alone, by bhakti alone, he attained perfection . Visnu Purana 1.13.10

Sri Jiva Goswami commentary.

 

This verse explains the circumstances in which the performance of varnashrama is applicable. One should perform varnashrama duties until one reaches detachment from enjoyment and develops faith in bhakti.

Yes, we should perform DVD until and after detachment is reached. Or how else are you going to live? Now I'm detached let me go to work in the factory, or big office building? No, Ever Krsna lives by these general standards. As a great(pure) man does, common men will follow.

For followers of Srila Prabhupada we will engage our lives now and after perfection in the sociology of DVD. It is not just of the begining, DVD is how we will live in our material bodies always.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

LOL prabhu! No, you don't need to live elsewhere! I certainly cannot accept someone like that as brahman varna.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What do I think? Well, I just accept what you have stated. However, I would go on to say that such persons should be given another chance if, and after , they feel remose for their actions and atone for it. Atonement may include punishment by the law (I'm not sure how punishment is meted out in a DVD system). The reason I say they must be given a second chance is because most people are offenders util they're purified by a suitable process, supremely potent among which is Krishna Consciousness. If we were to reject every offender (and I don't just mean child offenders), we would just have a society of outcasts.

 

Please be aware that I'm in no way advocating protection for such people but just more compassion to help them deal with their tendencies. If they don't reform, then more drastic measures are necesary.

 

Let me know if this post doesn't make sense. I'm not an expert in such matters or any matter at all but since you asked for deductive reasoning, I have attempted to chip in

Hare Krsna Guest......andra

Good post, no problemo.

Minor infractions are tolerated in all asramas and varnas, we are coming from dog life what else can we do? But only minor. It will take generations of DVD life style to purify us to any degree along with the chanting of the holy names of Krsna, Hari, Rama and following the perscriptions of sadhana. This concideration everyone gets.

The big things would mean that actions of an other kind must happen in the degree the infraction necessitates. And that can be open to interpitation as to the offence commited.

If we have a sannyas fall to sex then he is out of that asrama for good or the asrama becomes ludricous. Forgive? Yes, in an other asrama. That is only for man/woman fall down. We are not talking about with a child. Then he goes to jail or..........

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

This only tells half the story. It is a prescription for getting out of the mundane world as well, in conjunction with chanting the Maha-Mantra, and it actually supports our chanting of the Maha-Mantra by aiding us to chant it offensively.

 

That said, I read where Srila Prabhupada wrote in a foreward or preface to his original Delhi production of the First canto in 3 parts, where he said the entire philosophy of Gaudiya Vaisnavism was contained in those three books.

 

I wish I had saved that quote, because I have scoured the internet and cannot find it.

 

It may actually be in the First book of the Delhi set. But that is out on loan, and inaccessible.

 

So for a bunch of mudhas, how do we qualify to chant the name offenselessly, when it is obvious that we have begun and continue to waver between the reflection and the shadow of the name?

 

Use the support system offered by the Lord and his Acharya, the one that is supposed to assist the name, the one that assists material minded people to come closer to goodness, and get the full benefit of the name.

 

We are all disciples to the degree we are strictly following, and anyone from any varna may relate their honest experience with their sadhana of chanting and living in a devotional community (DVD), and if the person they are speaking to is receptive and not trying to flee the scene, they are acting as good as acharya.

 

Such behavior is rare, but perfectly possible.

 

Hare Krsna

Yes rare indead, like one in a million. In those DVD conversations, especially on 2/15/77 He says 'who will chant like Lord Caitanya'

Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don’t we do that also?

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krishna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Nishkincana. But we are not going to be nishkincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, “I do not take much interest in this.” Bahya. “It is external.” He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.

Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.

Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, “I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this.” He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srishtam [bg. 4.13]. So we are Krishna..., preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.

Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who’ll chant?

Satsvarupa: But if they won’t chant, then neither will they train up in the varnasrama. That’s the easiest.

Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible.

Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that.

Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.

CB-r

Hare Krsna Braj

Here is again the augmented instruction....3/12/74

Prabhupada: No. According to our present calculated, about 180 mounds. So there should be 120 mounds excess of grain. Instead of excess, they want ten thousand rupees for maintenance. This is... This management is going on. These things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussion was there? Simply talking? No practical? And the estimate of budget was presented for ten thousand rupees per month. And... And when it was scrutinizingly studied, immediately it came down to six thousand. So what kind of budget? So management should be in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he’ll fall sick. Sickness means idleness. Or excess eating, sleeping. No excess, no less. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati duhkha-ha. Yukta. Yukta means actually what you need. (aside:) Hare Krishna. So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varnasrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely.

Hridayananda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation?

Prabhupada: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, sudra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Krishna. Krishna was acting as a kshatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaisya. But Krishna is neither kshatriya nor, nor brahmana. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaisya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kshatriya. He was marrying as a kshatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kshatriya, sometimes as vaisya, but He’s neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna...

Nitai: Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Nitai: What should the kshatriyas be taught?

Prabhupada: Kshatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must see that everyone is engaged. And if there is any fight, they must come forward to fight. This is kshatriya’s business. There may be fight. Somebody may attack us. Not that chanting, “Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna...” No. They must come forward. “Yes, we are prepared to fight.” That is kshatriya.

Tamala-Krishna: Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Eh.

Tamala-Krishna: In our centers we are awarding brahmana initiation, second initiation...

Prabhupada: No, no. Initiation should go on. Even... You do not understand what I have said, that that is for Vaishnava. A Vaishnava and Vishnu... Just like Krishna is Vishnu, He’s not human being, but He was acting like human being, similarly, Vaishnava is transcendental. But for proper management of the material world, one should be acting like brahmana, one should be acting like kshatriya. That is required. Just like actually we are doing so. Some of you are preaching, and some of you are cleansing the temple. It does not mean that a sannyasi who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The... Their position as Vaishnava is the same. But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It is not that “Because I have taken sannyasa, therefore I cannot any more do anything.” If need be, he has to act as kshatriya. Or a sudra. It doesn’t matter.

Hridayananda: Oh.

I also appologise Prabhuji, I was quite harsh with you and I am sorry for that. I am just very passionate and angry about the way that the predators are protected and the poor children are neglected which has been the case in Iskcon.

 

Hare Krishna

Hare Krsna GuestJack

No worries on my side, I feel your pain and have some of my own. I like the passion, keep it up.

CB-r

I wasn't cheated.

I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to a Theist. And yes you were. But for you it is OK. Your not ISKCON affiliated. But you came because Srila Prabhupada opened up the world to the Hare Krsna sankirtan movement. It is because of Prabhupada you know anything of Govinda Maharaja. Until Prabhupada started this ISKCON the Gaudiya Maths, SCS were asleep at the wheel of world wide preaching. And they will be asleep for the next shift into the higher gear of DVD introduction.

CB-r

Where is initiation mentioned regarding any changes in the regulative principals? Within ISKCON you can have uninitiated bhakta students that haven't made a vow to follow anything, they are only studying (presumably in the varnashrama colleges). It seems Srila Swami Maharaj is saying the adjustment is to be made with the men recommending disciples for initiation:

 

 

 

Please show me where he is saying there should be a change in the regulative principals of initiated disciples. He does say different regs for sudras and ksatriyas, but these were general statements on varnashrama colleges and not on discipleship. I feel that if he were sayingto change the regs for disciples taking initiation it would have been very explicit.

Spend some time reading these conversations. The whole conversations, 3/12-14/74, 4/20/74, 3/15/77. I've posted prof of ISKCON partisipation. I posted change of principles for partisipants in DVD. I post Prabhupada said in our centers now, among our men. It is just to simply plane for you?

Members of ISKCON are disciples of Srila Prabhupada. When Prabhupada says everything sudras gets, do you think He forgot to say if the sudra follows 4 reg??? If it is as important as you say why did Prabhupada not say 4 regs anywhere in these conversations??? Prabhupada says if he follows the rules of sudra, not 4 regs. You think Prabhupada really forgot??? Have you become mad???

Hare Krsna

CB-r

Your business.Your choice. Just drop the true representative of Srila Prabhupada act. You have one follower. Be satisifed with that.

Not my follower, Devarsi is a Prabhupada man long before I met him. He already knew about these conversations and there impact on ISKCON. We meet on line. He was fishing and I was fishing, we caught each other using DVD hooks, so to speak. Each of us came to the same conclutions separately. yrs before we met. These same conclusions have been exchanged with others that were much closer than I to Srila Prabhupada. Its is all as I've said and you were all cheated after 74.

CB-r

I leave it. Better to practice killing for real than playing make believe games with paint ball guns. I'll take the blood of my killed deer over colored water any day. Srila Prabhupada said ksatriyas have to practice killing, you say different.

You sound like a bhogus devotee at odds every step of the way with these conversations and you reject the words of Guru. Are you?

Find in this quote where sudra is said to have to follow 4 regs. It is not said in any of the DVD conversations like that. Not just this one, none of them. And that is the point, IT IS CHANGED. You are at odds with a Guru you claim your following.

2/14/77 conv.

Satsvarupa: Yes. “Send us some of your men.”

Prabhupada: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That’s all. This is only interest.

Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.

Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform...

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

Fall down means breaking 4 reg, yes?

Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You’ll be ha...

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

Sudra does accordingly, pricnciples of sudra, work of sudra. He get perfection. No mention of 4 regs again. Has Prabhupada forgotten? No!

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

No 4 regs again conspicuious by absents. Purposely not mentioned. Only rules and regulations of sudra.

Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krishna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krishna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.

Fall down means what? 4 regs fault, yes? That is the change.

Hari-sauri: So we’d have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they’re falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krishna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?

What is the fall down? 4 regs again. now change "There is no need" of force

Hari-sauri:

sve sve karmany abhiratah

samsiddhim labhate narah

sva-karma-niratah siddhim

yatha vindati tac chrinu

“By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.”

Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. He can... As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.

How is the checking done? Change of regs.

Hari-sauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.

Prabhupada: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He’s also not following them. (laughs)

No 4 regs as previously understood. though regulations are still in place.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja