bhaktatraveler

Demigod worship is part of Vedic Culture also. What about Krsna stopping the Indra yajna in Vraja, i.e. Govardhana Hill. What is the meaning of that lila in relation to your statement?

That your purposefullly mixing apples and oranges to negate the very Guru you claim to follow. Opps, sorry you don't follow. And that most people like you do not have a clue as to the cosmology of the movement Srila Prabhupada implimented and how this division by guna and karma is explained in the Gita and Prabhuipada for US to utilize. You still reject 50%, like the Tamal's/etc all, taught you.

You and I can talk in person if you so desire, but to what use? I have tried, we are not of the same ilk. Then why interpose here? You like the sound of your mind spinning I dare say. Post your cutesy little articals on the Sun and leave me alone. Or face me in person and we will use the vani of Srila Prabhupada and see if context is right!

RCB

TRANSLATION Bg 18:66

 

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.

 

 

PURPORT

The Lord has described various kinds of knowledge,processes of religion, knowledge of the Supreme Brahman, knowledge ofthe Supersoul, knowledge of the different types of orders and statusesof social life, knowledge of the renounced order of life, knowledge ofnonattachment, sense and mind control, meditation, etc. He hasdescribed in so many ways different types of religion. Now, insummarizing Bhagavad-gītā, the Lord saysthat Arjuna should give up all the processes that have been explainedto him; he should simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That surrender will savehim from all kinds of sinful reactions, for the Lord personallypromises to protect him.

 

 

In the Eighth Chapter it was said that onlyone who has become free from all sinful reactions can take to theworship of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Thus one may think that unless he is free fromall sinful reactions he cannot take to the surrendering process. To such doubts it is here said that even if one is not free from allsinful reactions, simply by the process of surrendering to Śrī Kṛṣṇa he is automatically freed. There is no need of strenuous effort to freeoneself from sinful reactions. One should unhesitatingly accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme savior of all living entities. With faith and love, oneshould surrender unto Him.

According to the devotional process, one should simply accept such religious principles that will leadultimately to the devotional service of the Lord. One may perform a particular occupational duty according to his position in the social order, but if by executing his duty one does not come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all his activities are in vain.

Anything that does not lead to theperfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be avoided. One should be confident that in all circumstances Kṛṣṇa will protect him from all difficulties. There is no need of thinking how one should keep the body and soul together. Kṛṣṇa will see to that. One should always think himself helpless and should consider Kṛṣṇa the only basis for hisprogress in life. As soon as one seriously engages himself in devotional service to the Lord in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, at once he becomes freed from all contamination of material nature. There are different processes of religion and purificatory processes by cultivation of knowledge, meditation in the mystic yoga system, etc., but one who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa does not have to execute so many methods. That simple surrender unto Kṛṣṇa will save him from unnecessarily wasting time. One can thus make all progress at once and be freed from all sinful reaction.

One should be attracted by the beautiful vision of Kṛṣṇa. His name is Kṛṣṇa because He is all-attractive. Onewho becomes attracted by the beautiful, all-powerful, omnipotent visionof Kṛṣṇa is fortunate. There are different kinds oftranscendentalists-some of them are attached to the impersonal Brahmanvision, some of them are attracted by the Supersoul feature, etc., but one who is attracted to the personal feature of the Supreme Personalityof Godhead, and, above all, one who is attracted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead as Kṛṣṇa Himself, is the most perfect transcendentalist. In other words, devotional service to Kṛṣṇa, in full consciousness, is the most confidential part of knowledge, and this is the essence of the whole Bhagavad-gītā. Karma-yogīs,empiric philosophers, mystics, and devotees are all called transcendentalists, but one who is a pure devotee is the best of all.The particular words used here, mā śucaḥ,"Don't fear, don't hesitate, don't worry," are very significant. One may be perplexed as to how one can give up all kinds of religious forms and simply surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, but such worry is useless.

Prabhupada: Yes, Palika. [break] ...business, that requires so many other things. But if you take to agriculture you can do it immediately. Krishi-go-rakshya. That... We are going to do that. Krishi... This is beginning, family life, maintenance, body and soul together. This is the beginning. Business is there when there is excess. Krishi-go-rakshya-vanijyam [bg. 18.44]. First of all you take care of the cows and engage yourself in agricultural products. Then when there is excess production, you trade, get some money for other purposes. But you... Agriculture means you work for producing food. That is wanted. Why immediately go to trade? Trade is required when there is excess product. Everything is there. Krishi-go-rakshya. And the krishi you can produce independently. You simply work. You have got your hands and legs. You till the ground and throw some seed, and it will come. One kilo seeds, you’ll get one hundred mounds. Then, when the product is excess, you trade. Everything is there. If you produce food grain, you’ll eat nicely and you’ll be strong. You’ll be able to work more. Our point is take Krishna’s instruction. Everything will be perfect. Not that Krishna is advising immediately sarva-dharman parityajya [bg. 18.66]. For that stage you are not prepared. That I know. But in your present stage what you’ll do, that is perfect.

Giriraja: You mean I should leave everything and start a farm?

Prabhupada: Where is the question of leaving? Agriculture... You take to agriculture—that means you leave everything?

Giriraja: Well, what I have now.

Prabhupada: And what you have got? You are asking that “I require now food.” That means you have nothing. You have no food even. (aside:) Oh, you have brought it very quickly. Very nice. All right. [break] Live very comfortably, eat very comfortably and work. Chant Hare Krishna. Simply wasting time, the civilization... srama eva hi kevalam. Working hard and wasting valuable time of... Misguided. Andha yathandhair upaniya... When I think of their position... So every Vaishnava should be para-duhkha-duhkhi. So you like it?(END)

Prabhupada: Yes, Palika. [break] ...business, that requires so many other things. But if you take to agriculture you can do it immediately. Krishi-go-rakshya. That... We are going to do that. Krishi... This is beginning, family life, maintenance, body and soul together. This is the beginning. Business is there when there is excess. Krishi-go-rakshya-vanijyam [bg. 18.44]. First of all you take care of the cows and engage yourself in agricultural products. Then when there is excess production, you trade, get some money for other purposes. But you... Agriculture means you work for producing food. That is wanted. Why immediately go to trade? Trade is required when there is excess product. Everything is there. Krishi-go-rakshya. And the krishi you can produce independently. You simply work. You have got your hands and legs. You till the ground and throw some seed, and it will come. One kilo seeds, you’ll get one hundred mounds. Then, when the product is excess, you trade. Everything is there. If you produce food grain, you’ll eat nicely and you’ll be strong. You’ll be able to work more. Our point is take Krishna’s instruction. Everything will be perfect. Not that Krishna is advising immediately sarva-dharman parityajya [bg. 18.66]. For that stage you are not prepared. That I know. But in your present stage what you’ll do, that is perfect.

Giriraja: You mean I should leave everything and start a farm?

Prabhupada: Where is the question of leaving? Agriculture... You take to agriculture—that means you leave everything?

Giriraja: Well, what I have now.

Prabhupada: And what you have got? You are asking that “I require now food.” That means you have nothing. You have no food even. (aside:) Oh, you have brought it very quickly. Very nice. All right. [break] Live very comfortably, eat very comfortably and work. Chant Hare Krishna. Simply wasting time, the civilization... srama eva hi kevalam. Working hard and wasting valuable time of... Misguided. Andha yathandhair upaniya... When I think of their position... So every Vaishnava should be para-duhkha-duhkhi. So you like it?(END)

Vedic culture is from Krsna and not to be rejected like common religion. Remember this!

RCB

I have read in the Srimad Bhagavatam that Srila Prabhupada said in a purport when Lord Parasarama chastised the ksatriya order many times over some of those ksatriyas fled. Egypt and Europe were settled by ksatriyas fleeing reprisal from Lord Parasarama.

RCB

Let me quote myself from a previous post on this thread:

 

"I don't busy myself with devotees faults or stumblings until they start to affect the lives of others and Rameswara misled literally hundreds of devotees, most of which have left KC.

 

My biggest concern is how quickly devotees with some past credentials are glamorized and idealized beyond reason and reality. 'Now don't be a fault-finder' is the old saw that keeps the spin factory of guru-glitter going. I don't dare say anthing. Never breathed how I found him ridiculous, a saffron show queen being worshipped. Ah but the Emperor said I in my childish candor is...

 

That's how the guru phenomenon manages to keep going. They run the celeb circuit and are lionized like stars. And then one day, they fall down and these groupies are all angry and disillusioned. I was at New Dwarka when Rameswara was the acting acarya. I was never impressed, never taken up by the hype. So when he fell down, I wasn't too surprised. I had just seen him strutting around town in his sanyassi robes and trindunda going to clothing stores and strip malls. I chuckled then as I chuckle now when I hear of his sheepish return."

 

Seeing things as they are is not tantamount to hatred - that's a sappy cliche. In fact that vision is essential on the spiritual path - because it's not just sentimentality.

Well said prabhu, I was also in the neighborhood of New Dwarka at that time. As for his return? Just take note of who swoons and now praises, then avoid that person. Not all that came to Srila Prabhupada were devotees of good intent. Some were/are very duplicious and 'ill' motivated. And their cheerleaders are just as dangerous. Didn't Srila Prabhupada mention a 'sinister movement' implying within ISKCON?

Hare Krsna,

CB

Those partial life reviews where everything seemed to recorded on a tape made a profound impression on me in my day to day life. It is exactly like this body that I now identify with is simply a projected image like a character in a movie along with all the other surrounding associated images and their interactions moving long on the ethereal screen A tape far more subtle than 32 mm to be sure.

 

It feels like if I could just stop identifying with this character known here as theist and elsewhere with different names it would all still play out without me. The character would still go on until it's death with me even being conscious of it.

 

Curious stuff, now back to the sac.

Interesting, to be sure. These experiances keep us going/enthused on our paths back to Godhead.

I didn't think you ever slept, 11,000 post and still posting, He keeps going and going and going. He is the energizer Theist.

Just fun, love you dude/dudette.

Hare Krsna,

CBR

That is an interesting, no a VERY interesting account of your NDE and I believe in the reality of what you say. Of course NDE's are always colored by the beliefs we carry into the NDE. The same mind that was embodied is now disembodied by carrying the same conceptions.

 

And on you entering your fathers semen...I had an experience one time on a pyschedelic trip with baby hawaiian wood rose seeds i which I found exoerienced myself just prebirth. I was in an ocean of nondual substance with full sense of individuality and could sense a Supra intelligent being directing my path forward. I had no sense of motion yet I knew I was approahing a destination. Then i saw a group of spermatazoia and received a telepathic message that I was going to enter one for my birth on earth.

 

I also believe in the account of the Bhagavatam but just not in all the details.

 

Interesting in your account of reliving your entire life past before regaining consciousness the time seqence could not fit with our earth conception of time.

 

Another question that will make sense only if we have had a shared experience here; while reliving your life did you have the impression that your life was captured on a tape and that you were experiencing a replaying of that tape equipted with emotion states etc.?

 

I have had minature life reviews where this was the case. Something akin to one's life passing before your eyes just prior to death.

 

Anyway...

Cool! "Ocean of nondual substance' love it!

It all felt real time, not like a replay. It was almost like a reajustment or reintroduction back into the body I was in to begin with(this life). Maybe do to the souls leaving under the terms of near death, I had to be reaquanted with this body? This I don't know.

But as far as the SB discription goes of the womb goes, it is very real, as explained, to me. Concidering that hole experience was a true replay, I would have to conclude that my impresion of the womb would also be a fact.

Hare Krsna,

CBR

You are challenging blind faith in shastra but not blind faith in science.

You are quite secure to have blind faith in science and the Bible, but you are very quick to challenge blind faith in the Bhagavatam.

 

This selective blind faith that you promote is a scam.

 

If you are going to challenge blind faith, then why don't you challenge blind faith in the mundane instead of blind faith in the inconceivable?

 

Your attack on blind faith has an agenda and is not unbiased and objective.

 

You only challenge blind faith where blind faith is the only thing we have.

 

You encourage blind faith in mundane science and mundane religion.

 

So, it's quite obvious that you have a prejudice and an agenda that is not objective.

You just got to love this guy. Hare Krsna.

SB 3.31.5: Deriving its nutrition from the food and drink taken by the mother, the fetus grows and remains in that abominable residence of stools and urine, which is the breeding place of all kinds of worms.

SB 3.31.6: Bitten again and again all over the body by the hungry worms in the abdomen itself, the child suffers terrible agony because of his tenderness. He thus becomes unconscious moment after moment because of the terrible condition.

 

 

From the American Pregnncy Association

 

What is the amniotic sac and what does it do?

 

The amniotic sac is filled with the amniotic fluid. This sac is your baby's home, gymnasium, and protection from outside knocks, bumps, and other external pressures. The amniotic sac allows the fetus ample room to swim and move around which helps build muscle tone. To keep the baby cozy, the amniotic sac and fluid maintain a slightly higher temperature than the mother's body, usually 99.7 F.

At week 10, there is around 30 ml of fluid present. The amniotic fluid will reach it's peak around weeks 34-36 at about 1 liter. When your water breaks, it is this sac that ruptures and this fluid that leaves the body. Your baby's life is still being supported by the umbilical cord, and you should be meeting your baby soon!

 

 

 

 

Are devotees comfortable using the Bhagavatam's quotes about the fetus living in stool and urine and being bitten by worms and going in and out of consciousness in light of modern medical knowledge?

Dear Theist,

I had a near death experiance during a motorcycle accident on PCH just North of Santa Monica. There was a 10 car accident and as good as I was on 1000cc super bikes, I was cought by a bumper and flipped off the bike. I did numerous summersaults and hit the groud flat on my back. My first reaction was to take a mental assesment of my physical condition. I was sure that I was going to die, so I chanted the maha mantra-- Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rame Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.

I was in an instant transported to the court of Yamaraj. But not in front of Him for judgement. I came in from His left side, like from the wings next to His throne and stood, looking up, at the biggest(25 ft) most beautifull person I have ever seen. He looked down at me and said 'You do not belong here, go back'. I instantly was put in the body of my father, injected into the womb of my mother. I relived every infinitesimal moment from the time of awakening as sperm in my fathers body, up to the actual instant of regaining consciuosness lying on the pavment in great pain from the accident.

I have full memory now of the womb and I tell you it is just as the Srimad Bhagavatam discribes. And we do see Lord Visnu in that hellish condition. But forget Him at the time of birth.

Hare Krsna,

CBR

Caturbahu prabhu ... one of those rare ritviks who applies Vaisnava etiquettes in his life inspite of his differences with mainstream ISKCON and who you can actually have a pleasant conversation with and not be insulted. Pleasure to see you back prabhu. Where have you been of late? You're needed here to allow the ritviks folk to have some credibility!

Hare Krsna Prabhu

Thank you for your kind words. Just been watching lately. Not much to say. Its just the books make me warm and fuzzy inside, so I have to support their distribution and printing of the same books that made me a devotee. I do have a problem with post samadhi reediting. I didn't know that I'm now a 'book-vadhi', but I like it. And wear it proudly.

As for 'ritvic' conclution, it is not a fix all in and of it's self. It is one part of a hole that the ISKCON mission should be. I do not support 'ritvic' as a movement. Just what to do about initiations after the samadhi of Srila Prabhupada. In ISKCON only, outside is up to the Guru of that mission to make that determination. Just as Srila B R Sridhara Maharaja has done the same as our Guru. If one is wrong, both are. Personally I think these two Godbrothers are the quintessential preminant disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja and beyond misstakes.

I'm a little suprised to see the word 'credible' and Caturbahu in the same sentence used positivly and not derogatory. Thanks, I try to repeat as I have read and heard from Srila Prabhupada. Though I am a condition/motivated soul. Thanks again.

Hare Krsna,

CBR

Jai Srila Prabhupada !!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: Until these world leaders read my books and take to this Vedic culture, what kind of civilization will they have? Dog race. Horse race. They want this. Rat race. That's all. Their civilization is a race. Dog race. Horse race. Rat race. The citizens do not know anything about this great science of the soul. Modern civilization means that people are simply becoming rascals, animals. Of course, strictly speaking, theirs is a motor race. They have advanced beyond the common dog race to a motor race. But if a doggish person is running not on four legs but on four wheels, does that mean he is not a dog? It is the same race. The same race--whether by running on four legs or on four wheels. The race is the same, and the dog is the same.

So this civilization is a glorified dog race. Modern man does not know, "I may feel proud of racing around in a car, but is there any value if I do not understand the meaning of my life?" Hmm? So this is going on. A big, big highway for dog racing--that is modern civilization.

And when rascal yogis and swamis present their version of the Vedic culture, they say something like, "By this transcendental meditation you will keep your dog race very nice." In reality, these yogis and swamis are bewildered by this materialistic civilization. "Oh, very nice. It is very nice." That's all. In Bhagavad-gita Krishna describes such personalities. Mohitam nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam: "Bewildered by the modes of material nature, fools and rascals do not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible." The modern world is filled with such mudhas, rascals. So, again, the only hope is that you distribute my books as much as possible.

In London there is a big stadium for dog racing. Do you know that? Many people go to see the dogs race.

Disciple: In America dog racing is very popular, as well. Here in Denver, people love to go.

Srila Prabhupada: To the dog race? [Laughter.]

Disciple: We've gone there, too, Srila Prabhupada, to distribute your books.

Srila Prabhupada: In Australia, also--Sydney--oh, they are very fond of dog racing. Many men take their big dogs for racing.

(morning walk in Denver, Colorado, on June 28, 1975)

Yeah well, you can rely on someone with an agenda to make a loaded point. Either it's ritviks, or "original books", or Narayana Maharaja, or poison, or "we fell from Goloka", or something else entirely.

 

Maybe when devotees can liberate themselves from their strongly-held conceptions about some issues can any genuine discussions about spiritual issues take place. The soul is free - Be Free!

Agenda? I have no agenda that has been put forward yet.

A point was raised by my dear friend Guruvani and I happen to agree hole heartedly with him that books are the bases.

Many devotees have long, wonderful stories about how they came to Krsna. Mine is simple and short, I got Bhagavad-gita in a book store and was convinced solely by the potency of Srila Prabhupada's words. Sweet and simple, a book. Of the most divine nature. The changes to that book(BG) has altered the divinity of it and redered the effect to be a level of impotency. This is a natural fact, not my agenda.

No agenda, be free, while you can, exersize your will.

Hare Krsna.

CBR

If the books alone can get the job done, HOW COME THE JOB IS NOT DONE after distributing millions and millions of books?

 

Think, for crying out loud!

Free will of the individual and changed books with no potency!

I got BG before I ever met one devotee and was cent per cent convinced months before entering ISKCON and meeting that first devotee. Yes, original books make devotees if they want, it is free will.

Yes, job is not done! Let us print more 'original' books and distribute profusely. Someone out there is waiting and wanting. We need to do our job.

Hare Krsna,

CBR

As far as a 'concept' ritvic was introduced by Srila Prabhupada. Please be clear on this. The begining of this controvercy was early 1978, just after the samadhi of Srila Prabhupada. I was in LA at that time and distinctly remember this discussion going on then, what to speak of now. Ritvic is not a knee jurk reaction to fallen souls cheating others. It is vani from Guru.

This comes from Guru, Srila Prabhupada. No other Gaudiya guru's previously said to do like this. So you cann't just jump around as whimsy dictates and say, let me do as I want. I can be initiated as Rupa gosvami's disciple. No, you can not because Rupa Gosvami did not say for you to do like that. Srila Prabhupada said 'ritvic, yes'. And Prabhupada's dear most Godbrother B. R. Sridara Maharaja did/said the same 'Ritvic' after His passing for the SCS Math.

Hare Krsna,

Caturbahu das Bhakti

Hare Krsna, All prabhus

I'm of the liking dhotis club.

I generally wear one to the temple on Sundays or anytime I go for functions. I also am know to only use silk for formal attire in the non secular world too. I would wear a dhoti all the time, except for physical daily work. Then pants are the only way to go. But for temple sadhana I like dhoti best but do not use white.

I combine Ritz dye, 1 package of Sunsine Yellow and 1 of Traupe in the washer and dye all my white funeral color cloth for daily wear. Sort of a toned down yellow/beige. I hate to wear white. I was told Srila Prabhupada originally wanted us to use the color yellow. But the devotees started to go to India and came back in white cloth. It was said Prabhupada let it go, but did not like the change to white and said upon first sight "Who died"

Hare Krsna,

Caturbahu das

Maybe he is saying a devotee needs to be properly trained up before taking a wife, and that an online service doesn't take this into consideration? I don't know.

Yes, of course. Simple, no tricks. Just be careful whom you agree to live with in marrage. Thats all, be trained up, not third class picked up.

You asked for context, I posted context.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

What is the context of this quote?

Why? You don't like it that we should be train up men and not "ordinary karmi's"? Your going to love this conversation.

CBR

Room Conversation with Devotees

--

August 1, 1975, New Orleans

750801rc.no

Prabhupada: That is time for punishment. They should build up their character, samah, damah, fully controlled. When they like, they become grihasthas. Otherwise they are controlled. That is brahmana. For brahmana it is not compulsory to marry. Kshatriyas may marry more than one wife. They can take. So all girls must be married. That is... They must...They must have one husband, even the husband has got fifty wives. Then the problem of girls’ marriage will be solved. And as soon as one girl is pregnant, she should be separated.

Hridayananda: From the husband.

Prabhupada: At least for one and half years.

Upendra: At the moment of pregnancy? From the moment of pregnancy one and a half years?

Prabhupada: Yes. Pregnancy is understood at three months. From that month till further, sixteen months at least, she should not come to be near husband. That is eka-kadi (?). The child does not live. And they are not inclined to come unless a man induces. So the man, if he has got more than one wife, so man will not disturb her. And she will take rest for the next eighteen months. So after ten months she will give birth to the child, and for six months continually she will take care of the child. Feeding the child with breast milk, the child will be healthy. If the child can take mother’s milk for six months at least continually, he’ll become healthy for life.

Upendra: Where do they send that mother?

Prabhupada: Where they’ll take care.

Upendra: If the man sends the woman away, where does she...?

Prabhupada: Our aim is not to give help, but not... Generally she goes to the father’s house. So you can have separate building for that.

Nityananda: Are you saying that our men should have more than one wife?

Prabhupada: I have no objection.

Satsvarupa: That’s a difficult proposition.

Prabhupada: Why?

Satsvarupa: It’s not allowed in this country. It’s illegal. It’s against the law.

Devotee: It’s against the law.

Nityananda: No, it’s a matter of... No one knows who is married or unmarried, but if you have...

Prabhupada: That is not very difficult.

Satsvarupa: Well, the other difficulty, you brought this up several years ago, was that the men who take many wives have to be very select. Otherwise men will be attracted to join our movement for sex life, having different wives.

Prabhupada: No, no, unless our men are trained up, why you should allow to stay here and to wife. We want trained up men, not third-class picked-up. We want men who will follow the rules and regulations and fully trained up. Otherwise we don’t want. We don’t want ordinary karmis and... And if he agrees to be trained up, then we’ll take. Otherwise what is the use of bringing some useless men? He must agree to produce his own food, and work. Our rules and regulations, he must follow. Then it will be ideal community. Otherwise, if you bring from here and there some men and fill up, that is not good thing. This is a training institution, to become devotee.

Satsvarupa: Everything we do, we don’t hide it. We show the world what we’re doing. I don’t see how we could hide that one man had many different wives.

Prabhupada: If you don’t call wife, you can have. The law allows you to keep boyfriend, girlfriend. Then the... Instead of calling “husband,” call “friend.” That’s all. But, er, it is risky and the man must be responsible to keep... To keep more than one wife by trained-up man is not disallowed.

Brahmananda : But I think they thought that he could get it legally established, at least in the state of California.

Prabhupada: Well then go and marry there. If the state of California allows that, then they all can go to California.

Nityananda: The general public objects to that... It’s very...

Prabhupada: Public we don’t care. We... What is the public? We have got our own public here. So pub... What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and topless dance, bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don’t give any importance to this class of public, only after sense gratification, that’s all. They have no ideals of life. They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public? Mudhas, they have been described, mudhas. You know the meaning of mudha?

Devotee (1): Ass.

Prabhupada: Ass. Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah paramam mama.

Nityananda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and produce the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food independently?

Prabhupada: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Community means work everything for the community.

Devotee (1): Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the cows, some men... They can (indistinct) responsible.

Prabhupada: No, it is service (?).

Upendra: One question I have, Prabhupada... When I heard about New Vrindaban... I’ve not been there myself, so I cannot say firsthand, but I’ve talked with devotees have been there.

Prabhupada: Near.

Upendra: One would think because there’s land and room for vegetables and there are so many cows that there would be a plentiful supply of milk, but I understand that they use powdered milk. The devotees use powdered milk there.

Prabhupada: Why?

Upendra: Because they make all the milk into ghee and distribute it. And vegetables... I heard that at the temple that they use powdered milk. In Philadelphia I questioned the... That carpenter who made your table? He (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Why powdered milk if there is sufficient milk?

Upendra: I don’t know. I can’t say firsthand, but from the man who lived there, one of the householders who lived there, he said powdered milk...

Prabhupada: I don’t think so.

Devotee (1): I have heard that.

Prabhupada: No. This is not good. Ghee should be prepared where there is no more use. The Indian village, simply by keeping cows, they... Just like Nanda Maharaja was keeping cows. Similarly there are many villages. So the system is: they have got a big pan, and whatever milk is collected, put into that pan. It is being warmed. So they drink, the whole family members. They drink milk whenever they like. So whatever milk remains at night, they have to convert it into yogurt. The next day they use milk and yogurt also, as he likes. Then, after converting the milk into yogurt, still, it remains. It is stocked. So when there is sufficient old yogurt, they churn it and then butter comes out. So they take the butter, and the water separated from the butter, that is called whey? Whey, yes. So they... Instead of dahl, they use this whey, for chapati. It will be very healthy and tasty. And then the butter they turn into ghee. So where is the loss, (indistinct)? You require (indistinct).

Satsvarupa: Only after the whole milk is consumed, then the other...

Prabhupada: Milk you are collecting. So put in the pan. I have already explained. From milk stage to yogurt, yogurt to old yogurt, from old yogurt to butter, and then water, that whey. Then butter convert into ghee and whey, you can use, instead of drinking water, drink whey. Not a single drop of milk will be wasted, if you know how to do it. And you can take as much milk as possible, because ultimately it is going to be ghee. So if you start in the cities, nice restaurant, so ghee can be sold there. They’ll pay for that. And they can prepare nice preparations, kachoris, samosa, sweetballs. Or milk, if you don’t convert into yogurt, then naturally it will become... What is called?

Brahmananda: Curd.

Prabhupada: Curd. So curd you can send to the city. They will convert into sandesa, rasagulla and other preparations, and ghee. That is being done. In India the villagers, they do that. They are, keep cows. Convert them into curd or ghee, and ghee and curd sent to the city, they have got regular price for that. There is no question of waste of milk at any stage. One must know how to do it. So you can keep as many cows as possible and collect as much milk from them. You can utilize. And if some of the villagers trained up, they can open nice restaurant in the city. Utilize the ghee, curd, for making nice confectionary. People will purchase like anything. Just like in our Rathayatra festival, whatever sweets they prepared, all sold at good profit. Your countrymen, they did not see such nice things. And when they taste it—“Very nice.”

Brahmananda: They were selling one gulabjamin for seventy-five cents.

Prabhupada: Just see. (laughs) It may cost two cent. And you have got your sugar also. In this way organize. Avoid machine. Keep everyone employed as brahmana, as kshatriya, as vaisya. Nobody should sit down. Brahmanas, they are writers, editors, lecturers, instructors, worshiping Deity, ideal character. They have no anxiety for food, for clothing. Others should supply them. They haven’t got to work. Sannyasi is always preaching, going outside. In this way keep everyone fully engaged. Then it will be ideal. Otherwise people will criticize that we are simply eating and sleeping, escaping, so many, so many. And actually that is the position. Unless one is fully engaged, oh, that is not good. That is tamo-guna. Tamo-guna, and rajo-guna very active, and sattva-guna, intellectual activity. Both of them, active, only tamo-guna, not active. (indistinct) Tamo-guna means sleeping and laziness. These are the symptoms of tamo-guna. Every saintly man can avoid these two things—laziness and sleeping. Of course, as much you require, sleeping allowed, not more than... And keep everyone active, man or woman—all. Then it will be ideal society.

Nityananda: Without a machine how can you make sugar from the cane?

Prabhupada: Hand machine.

Nityananda: Hand machine?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Nityananda: Metal?

Prabhupada: Yes, they manufacture, hand, hand in the sugar cane, two men. Even we can prepare hand machine by cutting the wood. They do that. We are not against machine. You can utilize machine. But we should not allow others unemployed and use machine. This should be point. You can use. Use machine, that’s good, but not at the risk of keeping others unemployed. This should be noted. First thing is that everyone should be employed. If you have got many men, then why should you engage machine. These rascals, they do not know. They’re taking machine and keeping so many men unemployed. And the welfare department is paying them. They do not know how to organize society. And therefore hippies are coming out. Crime, criminals are coming out. (indistinct) The government is paying for becoming criminals and hippies and prostitutes. And how you can be happy, a society full of prostitutes, hippies, and criminals.

Brahmananda: In New York City they now have one million people who are receiving welfare.

Prabhupada: And all criminals.

Brahmananda: Yes. All criminals, prostitutes, and hippies.

Prabhupada: Because the government is paying for that, and they are now thinking that “What to do about crime?” This is rascaldom. You act in such a way, then repent later on.

Brahmananda: There was one boy from Sweden, he was our devotee. And then he fell into maya. He returned to Sweden. Now he’s getting from the government fifty dollars a week. So he’s using that money to buy drugs. So now he’s completely trapped.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: He gets money regularly, and he can never get out of the habit.

Prabhupada: In your country also. One keeps a girlfriend, the girl’s getting welfare, and he is purchasing drugs, and then their husband goes. I have seen. Some of our students have been. I have seen them.

Satsvarupa: That’s very prominent.

Prabhupada: And making trade. That is going on.

Brahmananda: So this is the varnasrama system that you are...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: This varnasrama college...

Prabhupada: Yes. Varnasrama means everyone should be engaged. There will be no, I mean to say, (indistinct).

Jagadisa: Srila Prabhupada, what exactly do the... Do the vaisyas cultivate the fields or the sudras cultivate the fields?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Jagadisa: Is it the duty of the vaisyas to cultivate the fields or...?

Prabhupada: Actually it is the duty of the vaisyas, but the sudras can help everyone, the helpers. The sudras will help the brahmanas, the kshatriyas, as well as the vaisyas. Those who have no brain—simply they can carry out order—they are sudras. And those who have got brain, they can act as brahmana, kshatriya, or vaisya. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying sastras, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is brahmana. They haven’t got to work as kshatriya, as vaisya. They are simply intellectuals. This is brahmana, with good character.

Devotee (1): Distributing books?

Prabhupada: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaisya, trade. It is a trade. Krishi-go-rakshya-vanijyam [bg. 18.44]. Krishi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaisya. So vaisya does not require any university degree or any... Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brahmana should be very highly learned scholar. So the brahmanas will give advice to the kshatriya how to rule, and the kshatriya will levy tax, and vaisyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.

Devotee: What kind of tax?

Prabhupada: Hm? Tax means... Everyone must have some income for maintaining. So brahmanas, they(?) doesn’t require any... They will live on the contribution of the society. Because they are giving for free service, so valuable service, knowledge, so they are provided by the kshatriyas and the vaisyas. So they have no anxiety for earning livelihood. Things are coming. Just like we are maintained. At least people give to me contribution. So similarly, brahmana will live at the cost of others’ contribution. That is source of income. Kshatriyas, they’ll levy tax. Kshatriya is given land. Now he divides the land. I have got, say, two thousand acres of land. So I divide to the vaisyas, one thousand this man, one thousand this man, one thousand. So on condition that “I give you this land. You produce foodstuff or utilize any way. You give me twenty-five percent.”

Brahmananda: Twenty-five percent of the produce?

Prabhupada: Whatever you have produced.

Brahmananda: Not necessarily money.

Prabhupada: No.

Brahmananda: But the produce.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: The grains or the milk or whatever.

Prabhupada: Whatever, yes. “Give me twenty-five percent. You can utilize the land.” So that is resource of the land.

Devotee (1): How does the kshatriya build a palace for himself or something like that?

Prabhupada: That will be done. To keep a prestigious position, they’ll have building, servant, soldiers. Otherwise how they will fear? How they’ll have respect?

Devotee (1): So the kshatriya is the predominator of the land.

Prabhupada: Yes. Kshatriya is the owner of the land.

Devotee (1): And he can take the stones and men and build a big, nice...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: ...palace.

Prabhupada: They, sudras are there. Give him his eating, and some hand, pocket expense, hand expense, regular. If one can eat, then he has no demand. So the laborer has to be given to eat sumptuously. “Eat and work, take some pocket...” They will be (indistinct). Not that you call professional laborer and you have to pay twenty-five dollars per hour. That is nuisance. They’ll drink. That’s all. And not that everyone should have nice house. Why? What is the use? Go in the village, live simple, produce food. That’s all. Eat. Why this electricity and three-hundred story building and...? And then you don’t produce anything, eat fish. “And let me eat...” Artificial. It is very easy to take the animals in the city and slaughter. A little vegetable and milk, they are satisfied.

Jagadisa: Even in the culture of Europe they had kings who had a certain territory and then they would appoint men called vassals to take care of different sections and then the serfs would work on the land.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is system, whole world. They were called... In India they were called zamindars, Mohammedans, and the Hindu zamindars, small kings. The zamindars are called king also. Anyone who owns land, he is called king.

Devotee (1): Just like Nanda Maharaja, he also had land. Nanda Maharaja.

Prabhupada: Yes. He was therefore called king. But he was a vaisya. He engaged his land for agriculture and cow keeping. And Krishna took charge of the cows, the calves, although still calf, He, (indistinct) This is the system. He was going with the calves whole day, playing with the boys and taking care of the cows, in the evening come back. Mother then washes and bathes and gives nice food. And immediately goes to sleep. And Krishna is clever. At night He goes to the gopis. (laughter) Then mother Yasoda did not know, when she thought, “My good son is sleeping.” And the gopis also would come at a place and they’ll dance. This is called life, childhood life. And when He was grown up, then He was brought to, I mean to say, Mathura and He fought with His maternal uncle, killed him, and then His father Vasudeva, took care, sent Him to, what is that? Sandipani Muni. He was educated. He was learning every subject every day. Then He was taken to Dvaraka, married so many queens, and became king. In the Krishna’s life, He’s always busy. Krishna... You’ll never find from the very beginning of His life He’s busy killing Putana, Aghasura, Bakasura, and His friends, they are confident. They’ll enter into the mouth of Aghasura. “Oh, Krishna is there. He will kill.” This is Vrindavana. There is no need and I don’t find in Bhagavata big factory and slaughterhouse, no. Nothing. The whole atmosphere is surcharged with sinful life. How people will be happy? Now they are coming to crimes and hippies and so many things, problems, diplomacy, CIA and what other? So many unnecessary waste of energy, time, and money. Vicious condition. Better give up city. Make Vrindavana, like this. City life is abominable. If you don’t live in the city, you don’t require petrol, motor car. It is no use. They may criticize that “You are going to the farm in a car.” So for the time being, there is no vehicle. Otherwise bullock cart—where is the difficulty? Suppose you are coming, one hour, and it takes one day. And if you are satisfied, such life, there is no question of moving. Maybe local moving, from this village to that village. That is sufficient, bullock carts. Why motor car? Drive here and park problem. Not only park problem, there are so many things. There are three thousand parts, motor car. You have to produce them, big factory.

Satsvarupa: Insurance.

Prabhupada: Insur... So much! Everyone is being (indistinct). We do not decry, but we point out, “In this way our valuable time of life is being wasted.” They say it is primitive life, but it is peaceful life. We want peaceful life and save time for Krishna consciousness. That is not primitive. That is intelligent life.

Satsvarupa: In order to evidence this, should we consider that we have to act as kshatriyas or shall we just preach and try to get others...

Prabhupada: No... Kshatriyas, I have already explained who is brahmana and kshatriya according to guna-karma-vibhagasah, as you work, as you are fit for. If you are fit to become brahmana, become brahmana. If you are fit to become kshatriya, become kshatriya. If you are fit to become sudra, do it. Three... Then... And a man who cannot become fit for any other purpose, he is sudra. That’s all. “Help. Help the brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya and take your food and little pocket expense. That’s all.” Little pocket expenditure. But in our society we don’t require, but even if it is required we can give.

Brahmananda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members...

Prabhupada: Yes, just to show people how to... The first-class men, brahmana, second-class, kshatriya, third-class, vaisya, fourth-class...

Satsvarupa: But all in our society are Vaishnavas.

Prabhupada: That is our real position. This is for management.

Nityananda: How many kshatriyas can I have on this farm? How many kshatriyas can we have on one farm?

Prabhupada: I told. Find out who is going to be kshatriya. Then... Take your time (?).

Nityananda: You can have more than one?

Prabhupada: No, no. (Why not??) There is no rule. As according to the work, if people are interested to work as vaisya, let them become vaisya. If he is intelligent, if he wants to work as brahmana, let him work as brahmana. Let him work as kshatriya. And the fourth-class, let him work as sudra. So the management should see that nobody is unemployed or not engaged, men, women. Woman can take care of the milk products or spining (spinning). And sudras can be engaged for working as weaver, as a blacksmith, a goldsmith. There are so many things.

Jagadisa: Cobbler?

Prabhupada: Cobbler is less than sudra. Yes. Cobbler means when the cows die, the cobbler may take it. If he wants, he can eat the flesh, and he can utilize the bone, hoofs. He can prepare... He gets the skin without any price. So he can make shoes and he’ll make some profit. And because he is cobbler, he can be allowed to eat meat, fifth-class... Not that “Professor such-and-such,” and eating meat. This is the degradation of society. He is doing the work of a brahmana—teacher means brahmana—and eating meat—Oh, horrible! Syamasundara? So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I’ll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole... Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change. Then the whole world... And it is the duty because they are kept in darkness and ignorance, then the human life is being spoiled. These rascals, because they do not know how to live... Andha yathandhair... They are blind, and they are leading... Others are blind, and they are leading and they, all of them, going to ditch. So it is the duty. There is... Caitanya has explained, para-upakara. Save them. If it is not possible to save everyone, as many as possible... This is human life. This is Krishna consciousness, to save others who are in the darkness. It is not a profession: “Now, Krishna consciousness is my profession. I’m getting very easily food and shelter.” Just like the Indians, they are doing, a profession, say another means of livelihood. Not like that. It is for para-upakara, actually benefiting the others. That is Krishna consciousness. Then Krishna will be very much pleased: “Oh, he is trying.” ’Cause Krishna personally comes for doing this benefit to the people, and if you do, then how much Krishna will be pleased. Then? Just like I am traveling in my centers, and if I see that my students, my men are doing very nice, everything is going nice, how much pleased I will be, that I’ll save my labors and now write books for the rest of my time. Similarly, if Krishna sees that you are, on behalf of Krishna, you are trying to save these rascals, then He’ll be very (indistinct) with you. They are rascals. The leaders are rascals and the followers are rascals and they’re all going to hell. Nature’s law is very strict. Daivi hy esha gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [bg. 7.14]. You cannot avoid it. Nature is all-powerful. Krishna has given: “You work in this way.” She’ll work. She’ll work. She’ll punish. As soon as there is little discrepancy—you have eaten, eaten more than is necessary—indigestion. “Indigestion, starve.” This is nature’s law. Nature will act. But you have to (indistinct) them with knowledge that “You don’t do this. Otherwise you will be under the control of nature life after life. Simply miseries.” Para-duhkha-duhkhi. Vaishnava’s qualification is para-duhkha-duhkhi. He is unhappy by seeing others’ distress. This is Vaishnava. (end)

Prabhupada: No, no, unless our men are trained up, why you should allow to stay here and to wife. We want trained up men, not third-class picked-up. We want men who will follow the rules and regulations and fully trained up. Otherwise we don’t want. We don’t want ordinary karmis and... And if he agrees to be trained up, then we’ll take. Otherwise what is the use of bringing some useless men? He must agree to produce his own food, and work. Our rules and regulations, he must follow. Then it will be ideal community. Otherwise, if you bring from here and there some men and fill up, that is not good thing. This is a training institution, to become devotee.

(END)

CBR

This is the subject, DVD, Begger. Your quote and retoric is irrelivent to this thread. Just as much as Anadi's

TEXT 26

TEXT

PaurizSv>aavivihTaaNa( YaQaav<A| p YaQaai[MaMa( )<>

vEraGYaraGaaePaaiDa>YaaMaaManaTaae>aYal/+a<AANA( p 26 )) ))<> purusha-sva-bhava-vihitan

yatha-varnam yathasramam

vairagya-ragopadhibhyam

amnatobhaya-lakshanan

SYNONYMS

purusha—the human being; sva-bhava—by his own acquired qualities; vihitan—prescribed; yatha—according to; varnam—classification of castes; yatha—according to; asramam—orders of life; vairagya—detachment; raga—attachment; upadhibhyam—out of such designations; amnata—systematically; ubhaya—both; lakshanan—symptoms.

TRANSLATION

At Maharaja Yudhishthira’s inquiry, Bhishmadeva first defined all the classifications of castes and orders of life in terms of the individual’s qualifications. Then he systematically, in twofold divisions, described counteraction by detachment and interaction by attachment.

PURPORT

The conception of four castes and four orders of life, as planned by the Lord Himself (Bg. 4.13), is to accelerate transcendental qualities of the individual person so that he may gradually realize his spiritual identity and thus act accordingly to get free from material bondage, or conditional life. In almost all the Puranas the subject matter is described in the same spirit, and so also in the Mahabharata it is more elaborately described by Bhishmadeva in the Santi-parva, beginning from the sixtieth chapter.

The varnasrama-dharma is prescribed for the civilized human being just to train him to successfully terminate human life. Self-realization is distinguished from the life of the lower animals engaged in eating, sleeping, fearing and mating. Bhishmadeva advised for all human beings nine qualifications: (1) not to become angry, (2) not to lie, (3) to equally distribute wealth, (4) to forgive, (5) to beget children only by one’s legitimate wife, (6) to be pure in mind and hygienic in body, (7) not to be inimical toward anyone, (8) to be simple, and (9) to support servants or subordinates. One cannot be called a civilized person without acquiring the above-mentioned preliminary qualities. Besides these, the brahmanas (the intelligent men), the administrative men, the mercantile community and the laborer class must acquire special qualities in terms of occupational duties mentioned in all the Vedic scriptures. For the intelligent men, controlling the senses is the most essential qualification. It is the basis of morality. Sex indulgence even with a legitimate wife must also be controlled, and thereby family control will automatically follow. An intelligent man abuses his great qualifications if he does not follow the Vedic way of life. This means he must seriously make a study of the Vedic literatures, especially of the Srimad-Bhagavatam and the Bhagavad-gita. For learning Vedic knowledge, one must approach a person who is cent percent engaged in devotional service. He must not do things which are forbidden in the sastras. A person cannot be a teacher if he drinks or smokes. In the modern system of education the teacher’s academic qualification is taken into consideration without evaluation of his moral life. Therefore, the result of education is misuse of high intelligence in so many ways.

The kshatriya, the member of the administrative class, is especially advised to give charity and not to accept charity in any circumstances. Modern administrators raise subscriptions for some political functions, but never give charity to the citizens in any state function. It is just the reverse in the injunctions of the sastras. The administrative class must be well versed in the sastras, but must not take to the profession of teachers. The administrators should never pretend to become nonviolent and thereby go to hell. When Arjuna wanted to become a nonviolent coward on the Battlefield of Kurukshetra, he was severely chastised by Lord Krishna. The Lord degraded Arjuna at that time to the status of an uncivilized man for his avowed acceptance of the cult of nonviolence. The administrative class must be personally trained in military education. Cowards should not be elevated to the presidential throne by dint of numerical votes only. The monarchs were all chivalrous personalities, and therefore monarchy should be maintained provided the monarch is regularly trained in the occupational duties of a king. In fighting, the king or the president should never return home without being hurt by the enemy. The so-called king of today never visits the warfield. He is very much expert in artificially encouraging the fighting strength in the hope of false national prestige. As soon as the administrative class is turned into a gang of mercantile and laborer men, the whole machinery of government becomes polluted.

The vaisyas, the members of the mercantile communities, are especially advised to protect the cows. Cow protection means increasing the milk productions, namely curd and butter. Agriculture and distribution of the foodstuff are the primary duties of the mercantile community backed by education in Vedic knowledge and trained to give in charity. As the kshatriyas were given charge of the protection of the citizens, vaisyas were given the charge of the protection of animals. Animals are never meant to be killed. Killing of animals is a symptom of barbarian society. For a human being, agricultural produce, fruits and milk are sufficient and compatible foodstuffs. The human society should give more attention to animal protection. The productive energy of the laborer is misused when he is occupied by industrial enterprises. Industry of various types cannot produce the essential needs of man, namely rice, wheat, grains, milk, fruits and vegetables. The production of machines and machine tools increases the artificial living fashion of a class of vested interests and keeps thousands of men in starvation and unrest. This should not be the standard of civilization.

The sudra class is less intelligent and should have no independence. They are meant for rendering sincere service to the three higher sections of the society. The sudra class can attain all comforts of life simply by rendering service to the higher classes. It is especially enjoined that a sudra should never bank money. As soon as the sudras accumulate wealth, it will be misused for sinful activities in wine, women and gambling. Wine, women and gambling indicate that the population is degraded to less than sudra quality. The higher castes should always look after the maintenance of the sudras, and they should provide them with old and used garments. A sudra should not leave his master when the master is old and invalid, and the master should keep the servants satisfied in all respects. The sudras must first of all be satisfied by sumptuous food and clothing before any sacrifice is performed. In this age so many functions are held by spending millions, but the poor laborer is not sumptuously fed or given charity, clothing, etc. The laborers are thus dissatisfied, and so they make agitation.

The varnas are, so to speak, classifications of different occupations, and asrama-dharma is gradual progress on the path of self-realization. Both are interrelated, and one is dependent on the other. The main purpose of asrama-dharma is to awaken knowledge and detachment. The brahmacari asrama is the training ground for the prospective candidates. In this asrama it is instructed that this material world is not actually the home of the living being. The conditioned souls under material bondage are prisoners of matter, and therefore self-realization is the ultimate aim of life. The whole system of asrama-dharma is a means to detachment. One who fails to assimilate this spirit of detachment is allowed to enter into family life with the same spirit of detachment. Therefore, one who attains detachment may at once adopt the fourth order, namely, renounced, and thus live on charity only, not to accumulate wealth, but just to keep body and soul together for ultimate realization. Household life is for one who is attached, and the vanaprastha and sannyasa orders of life are for those who are detached from material life. The brahmacari-asrama is especially meant for training both the attached and detached.

(END)

CBR

Catur prabhu ... you explained the nned to kill innocent deer for 'practice' as Ksatriya. But why do you have to eat it's meat after you've killed the animal?

Have to? I have not said. Option only is available. Option! Not just deer, wild animals, dangerous ones. Not rabbits, squirrels, birds.....no hidding, stalking. More, the brahmans have not said to me. Do you know?

CBR

Hare Krsna Bhatatraveller,

 

thank you for spending time for posting this important conversation on DVD.

 

 

I can see from your understandings that Srila Prabhupada's vision was to build this house where all can live. So yes...even the person who is caught up in grosser activities, and and is unable presently to chant is given the chance (as per Srila Prabhupada's vision) to purify himself through regulated activity ie. dvd.

 

What is of the essence, is to give the engossed souls an oppurtunity for higher sation, so that oneday they may be able to take to the process of chanting the Holy Names.

 

So yes I can see your point. We must use any means possible at our disposal to bring about the well being of the engrossed soul. I agree with Srila Prabhupada's concept here. Use any means possible.

 

We can see from the conversation that Srila Prabhupada is saying that the people are unable to chant like Sri Caitanya or Haridas Thakura. And what is this chanting...it is pure offenseless constant chanting of the Maha-mantra.

 

As per Hari-Naam-Cintamani the only way to become free of offenseless chanting is to chant constantly day and night. And Srila Prabhupada says in your quote they cannot even chant their quota of sixteen rounds daily.

 

 

So who of us is able to chant this way. Possibly not many of us. But we all must understand that the goal is to attain love of Godhead. And any essential implementation aimed at bringing about this goal is of necessity. So we can see that the prime and essential activity is chanting the Holy Name without offence. DVD is surely essential...I agree.

 

But what is the most essential thing for the suffering souls in this age.

 

 

So we can see from the conversation that you posted Srila Prabhupada considered very few are able to chant like Mahaprabhu or Haridas. And as per Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura constant chanting of the Mahamantra is the only solution to removing the offences in chanting the Mahamantra.

 

But we can see from the highlighted purple verses there is another solution.

That by taking regular shelter of Gaura-Nityananda Naam, even with slight faith, the chanter is very quickly freed from offences. And we can also see from the purport that there is no consideration of offences in taking full and regular shelter of Gaura-Nityananda and their holy names. Even the most fallen (whatever the gross sins) can chant these names without offence.

 

Srila Prabhupada stresses here that taking shelter of Sri Caitanya's name is even more essential than the chanting of the Mahamantra. He has mercifully given us the Panca-Tattva Mantra, Gaura-Nitai deity installations,

so many things to focus us on their regular shelter. There is even no scriptural injunction that stops one from vibrating Gaura-Nityananda Naam constantly, no injunction anywhere in Gaudiya literature. This is essential for the neophyte devotee. Every chance we get we should cry out (or murmur quietly) with feeling...Gaura-Nityananda...Gaura-Nityananda...Gaura-Nityananda..

 

So yes by any means shower mercy upon the poor suffering souls to grant them the qualification to take up the pure chanting of the Mahamantra. And DVD is surely in Srila Prabhupada's master plan. And it is essential.

 

But what is the most essential thing for the fallen...Considering the position of the people of this age, however, the chanting of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's name is more essential than the chanting of the Hare Krsna mahamantra because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the most magnanimous incarnation and His mercy is very easily achieved....CC adi lila 8.31 purport.

 

Now we can easily understand how essential is chanting of the Mahamantra...so how much even more so is this more essential thing than the essential.

 

 

 

And what qualification is needed...even slight faith ( CC adi 8.31).

 

So we must implement every means of mercy for the fallen souls...yes absolutely dvd...but most importantly and essentially implementation of these truths which I have elaborated on. It is so important to press home to the beginners in spiritual life to constantly seek Lords Nityananda Gauranga's mercy. I have observed a lacking of this in some preaching cicles. Especially from my own initial encounters with Krsna consciousness and instruction from devotees.

 

Srila Prabhupada says in(CC adi lila 8.31 purport) A neophyte student who is not sufficiently educated or enlightened should not indulge in the worship of Sri Radha and Krsna or the chanting of the Hare Krsna mahamantra. Even if he does so, he cannot get the desired result.

But instead...One should therefore chant the names of Nitai-Gaura and worship Them without false prestige.

 

So along side of our strong preaching efforts of spreading the Mahamantra lets impress home to the conditioned souls...Gaura-Naam-Tattva. And yes ofcourse Bhaktatraveller...by all means I encourage your efforts in spreading knowledge of DVD to the general masses. Let us walk side by side in our humble attempts and preaching moods.

 

This is one of the best posts for days now. Yes, the chanting will not stop. That was never a contention from me, I have never said that DVD is the goal. It(DVD) is to improve our material condition to make the way easier...not the end goal.

Great post Bija.

CBR

Hare Krsna

Anadi and Begger did you read the converstion snippit I just posted? No? to bad for both of you. Anadi you already reject Srila Prabhupada, so bullocks to you. You are non.

Begger, I have shown you a number of quotes that you conveniently ignore, so then I do not care for your responces either. Srila Prabhupada uses Bhima as example of a pure devotee that eats meat in these conversations. Prabhupada's example. Did you miss this? When mother Sita was left in the hermatage alone and Ravana kidnaped Her, Rama was hunting a deer. Mother Sita wanted and not as a pet!

So far no one on this forum has posted anything tangible that would show the DVD explanations to be false or not for us ISKCON devotees to accept as said.

CBR

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.1.69 From Purport

Vinā paśu-ghnāt. The word paśu means "animal." An animal killer, paśu-ghna, cannot enter into Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, therefore, animal killing is completely prohibited.

Uttamaśloka-guṇānuvādāt. The word uttamaśloka means "one who is famous as the best of those who are good." The Lord is good in all circumstances. That is His natural reputation. His goodness is unlimited, and He uses it unlimitedly. A devotee is also sometimes described as uttamaśloka, meaning that he is eager to glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead or the Lord's devotees. Glorifying the Lord and glorifying the Lord's devotees are the same. Or, rather, glorifying the devotee is more important than glorifying the Lord directly. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura explains this fact: chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava-sevā, nistāra pāyeche kebā. One cannot be liberated from material contamination without sincerely serving a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.

Bhavauṣadhāt means "from the universal remedy." Chanting the holy name and glorifying the Supreme Lord are the universal remedy for all the miseries of materialistic life. Persons who desire to be freed from this material world are called mumukṣu. Such persons can understand the miseries of materialistic life, and by glorifying the activities of the Lord they can be released from all these miseries. The transcendental sound vibrations concerning the Lord's name, fame, form, qualities and paraphernalia are all nondifferent from the Lord. Therefore the very sound vibration of the Lord's glorification and name are pleasing to the ears, and by understanding the absolute nature of the Lord's name, form and qualities the devotee becomes joyful. Even those who are not devotees, however, enjoy the pleasing narrations of the Lord's transcendental activities. Even ordinary persons not very much advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness take pleasure in describing the narrations depicted in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. When a materialistic person is purified in this way, he engages in hearing and chanting the glories of the Lord. Because glorification of the Lord's pastimes is very pleasing to the ear and heart of the devotee, it is simultaneously his subject and object.

Begger you have a problem. In these conversations meat eating is said by Srila Prabhupada, for the devotees in ISKCON. And in your quoted post it appears Prabhupada says different. Both are said by Guru. Do you reject Guru's words from one source and give the other validity? Are both simultainiously valid? How to satisfy both and not reject either? Do to the amount of information we have to do DVD it would seem that there is no dought that is the direction we were to take.

The key is under regulation. Just like sex for procreation is still concidered celibasy. My way accepts all the words of Guru and your conclutions reject to much of the instructions to imbide DVD. And all the explantions that go along with it. I take the DVD way first, formost and always, I will try.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

Hare Krsna Bija

There is "Essential" and then there is essential. Which essential comes first? Like climing a mountain, say Everest. Or baking a cake. Which step is more 'essential' and which part is just in the way or to be rejected? To my understanding the 'essential' steps would be that which are needed to complete the trask. For the vast majority we need the DVD step in order to practice 'Gauranga-naam'....

Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.

Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, “I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this.” He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srishtam [bg. 4.13]. So we are Krishna..., preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.

Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who’ll chant?

Satsvarupa: But if they won’t chant, then neither will they train up in the varnasrama. That’s the easiest.

Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible.

Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that.

Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya’s chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, kshatriyas. There must be regular education.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

Hare Krsna

I'm also weighing in on the side of caution also. "Erotic' is to close to a mundain connotation and to have even a tinge of mundain disqualifies us from these subjects contained in such books as the Vilapa Kusumanjali.

Especially on a public fourm.

And it is not the subject of the topic.

CBR

PS. The more I think about this the madder I get. Anadi you brought us to this thought of "Erotic" with your insistence that we 'NOT' follow DVD! Just like Theist said earlier, 'I'm still working on ahum brahmasmi'!!! And that is the fact. For all of us, you to, or what the Hell are you doing on line playing on this forum? Not qualified to read Vilapa Kusumanjali. And then the subject matter goes in a desending way to the "Erotic" pastimes of Radha and Krsna. Shame on you.

I really do not care to have any deaper conversation with you, I have seen as you speak with others, it will go no where. This thread is about DVD, not you or me.

And concidering the school of thought you are coming from why would you be interested one way or another except to be a pain in the bead bag of those devotees outside of the Babaji's school.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja