Jump to content


  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by bhaktatraveler


    there are two kinds of brahmanas -- by birth and by qualities . there are some qualities which is traditionally thought to be characteristics of any brahmana such as , daya (compassion) , suchita(hygene) , satyavadi (truthful ) etc. in the later vedic period the varna system became rigid and the process of determining a brahmana by guna(qualities) became obsolete. it was the late 19th century hindu reform movements which recognised and introduced method of initiating people as brahmanas based on their qualities.


    but that doesnt make brahmanas by birth less valuable either. thousands of years of gloroius ancestry , education and many other qualities do pass on to the next generation . so if someone is born as a brahmana it makes no sense to get his thread removed and handed over again after harinaam-brahmin initiation . it would definitely be a disregard of a 3000 year old tradition and a forcefull glorification of gaudiya vaishnavism , which i think is not very respectfull . there are many other religious orders who does not remove the thread but give a second gaayatri initiation later as a method of reinforcing the individua's already existing , but dormant brahminical qualities.


    it wiser and better to bring out the brahminical qualities than tear off the thread with no respect to the age old custom.


    There is no such thing as brahman by birth. Always by quality ownly. To be born in a family of brahmanas is also a big question. I have read Srila Prabhupada questioning the validity of family gotra because guna and karma could not be truthfully assertained. So first let us 'see' the guna and karma of brahmana, then we will talk of the sons birth.


    Taking for granted that the son's birth is in fact in a brahman family, then we still have to see that he has embodied the same satva guna qualities. If he has? Then I can agree to not take off the old thead. But for useless tradition we do not care. It can only be by guna and karma that one is a brahman. Not by birth in any stage of the game. Even if the game has been going on for three thousand yrs


    Hare Krsna




    Sambya, I'd like to again refer you and anyone else interested in this subject to Jaiva-Dharma. Please do take a look. There are quite a few things there explained, relevant to your question. But just to give you a sample...

    Perhaps one of the most potentially confusing things for brahmins in Vaisnava behavior is how they choose their association. A vaisnava born in a brahmana family will not hesitate to take the association of a superior vaisnava from a non-brahmana family. In fact it is considered to be an offense to even think of a pure vaisnava in terms of his social background. This is in terms of spiritual association. However in social dealings vaisnava-brahmana will follow the 'standard' rules for his social group. For example, he won't marry a girl from a non-brahmana family, etc. In Jaiva-Dharma you will find much more on this and many other points relevant to your question.

    There you will also find an extended and highly important discussion on some very possible difference on how the vaisnavas and the nowadays brahmanas see (understand) sadhana and sadhya.


    Nice responce!


    Srila Prabhupada signed the DOM document yet later on he did many things that were contrary to it, such as appointing temple presidents and GBCs without a vote and making GBCs a position for life.


    My point was that SP himself was changing his own decisions as he saw fit at a particular time. Prabhupada wanted to make sure things WORKED, producing desired RESULTS. That what was constant, and that is what should NOT CHANGE.


    I like it! I my not argee with the application, but the generality is good.








    I remember when these men were sincere and trusted and loved by Srila Prabhupada.

    I don't think they are trying to be evil.

    If they were so evil and nasty I think Srila Prabhupada in all his wisdom would have seen through the facade.


    They are just neophytes that pretended to be advanced devotees.


    Obviously, the idea of an "advanced devotee" was a very naive and simplistic notion in ISKCON back in them days.


    No, I am the demon false devotee.

    I have plenty of proof of that.


    They are all more sincere than me.


    At least that is the way a humble person is supposed to think.


    I am not humble, but I can't even fool myself about being some authentic Vaishnava.

    I am not even close.


    That I'm not vaisnava does not mean that I can't make discrimination according to scripture. I think you are more than Sats any day! I've talked to both of you. You get my vote, he gets the moat. I say kill them all and let Krsna sort it out! LOL(thats a joke Vern)


    Hare Krsna




    I have to essentially agree with the most Evil Kaisersose in his post #25.

    But the entire brahmana/non-brahmana issue, in the context of Gaudiya Saraswat Vaisnava diksa is really a smoke screen to promote an iconoclastic outlook and therefore a much more ambitious agenda. Actually we are comparing apples and oranges, but since we don't even agree on definitions, when we go to grab the oranges they turn into tangerines. So these threads which really appear to be about this subject are just some kind of hodge podge where the protagonists will raise just about any argument to make their point. The non-Saraswat Gaudiyas could just as well debate this with the Saraswat Gaudiyas as both have distinctly different opinions on the subject which the Kaiser, Justin and Raghu seem to be unaware. Each different Vaisnava and even Advaitan sect would have, then again even another opinion. Each side will take the stand that they have the correct interpretation of the Vedic and Puranic concepts, so the arguments will go on without cessation and we can all join in gleefully in an orgy of tale chasing (more canine analogies), an avocation that the good (Evil) Kaiser is so expert at, with all of us idlers who have way too much time on our hands.


    That sounds about right!




    You will have to do better than that. Show me evidence that the Indian caste system was the reason for Indian colonization or are you just repeating something you heard somewhere without thinking it out?


    And then, please explain how the British colonized almost the entire world, but it is only in the case of India that caste was the reason.


    I'll wait,




    Our spiritual master has said that India is suffering because of the on set of Kali yuga. That started with the first fallen brahamna Srigi(?) He cursed the faltless emperor. Then down hill from there, that would include loss of a society based on guna and karma, sanatana dharma. Thereby opening the door to retribution from foreign invaders.


    Hare Krsna




    PS. for someone whom posses as a stalwart vedic Indian, I would say you are less Indian. More British by the us of 'cheers' as the british do.


    Sats is surrounded by sycophants. He could read The Playboy Adviser before japa and the yes men would tell him that its the right thing to do. He had siksa gurus in Sridhar Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja and he was forced by the GBC to renounce them in the 80's and 90's respectively. And I really believe that he was forced to be a Zonal by the GBC of the time. The whole thing drove him crazy and there are persons who will have to answer for what they have done. On the other hand there are many who want a watered down version of Iskcon, and now they are getting what they desire.

    No one forces anyone! Sats was bad news bears in 77. I know from personal conversations with him on DVD. . Do not be fooled.




    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


    new varna ?!! which vedic text says that ?



    and yet gurus .........



    does that suggest that krishna never understood that they are not yet qualified to become gurus or brahmana and consequently gave a wrong instruction !!!!!???:)


    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>so behaving ( or pretending )as vaishnavas is the thing thats needed . wow !!! never thought realization's so easy................!!!!


    Nothing new here, Vaisnava has always been above the varnas, including brahmana. Thats not us, we are 'aspireing' not yet pure. But the pure Vaisnava is beyond reproach.


    There in lays the rub. They are not gurus. So your contention is moot.


    All speculation as to the intimate conclutions of Krsna's desires.


    No! pretents is just a shadow. Be real! pretents will not take us back to lila.


    Hare Krsna




    Since I did not get any answers, and since the only responses were once again evasive, let me again put forth the questions. I really do not understand what is so childish about asking these questions. Yes, I know, I'm a new kid, i'm evil, i'm a bigot, etc. But please, can we have a focused discussion?


    1) The disciples of Prabhupada who are currently gurus - are they all brahmins? Yes or no?


    2) The disciples of Prabhupada who were formerly gurus but then fell down - were they brahmins? Yes or No?


    3) If the disciples of Prabhupada who fell down were not gurus, then why did Prabhupada initiate them as brahmins? Did he (a) do so knowing that they were not brahmins, or (b) do so because he did not know if they were brahmins or not?


    4a) If the answer to question (3) is choice (a), then how do you rationalize giving initiations to a non-brahmin when you claim that one is only a brahmin based on conduct/qualification?


    4b) If the answer to question (3) is choice (b), then when even Prabhupada (whom you no doubt consider the topmost guru) could mistakenly identify someone as a brahmin, then how are other gurus supposed to correctly identify brahmins prior to initiation?



    1) I would venture to guess that 'no' they are not brahmanas.


    2) Could have been at one time, but not after a fall. That would just cheapen the varna. Oh and they were never gurus in a bonfided ISKCON. Prabhupada is the only guru for ISKCON.


    3) Guru and brahman are two different things, mutually exclusive. One does not depend on the other. Second part will have to be answered by Prabhupada. I do not claim to know His mind at the time. But as a father, I would say that the answer is as individual as the people involved. And the over all mission of spreading KC. Things are much bigger than just one generation. The result of an action might take a hundred yrs to manifest.


    4a) What? You say they were non. How about at the time of initiation they were following purly, thereby qualified.


    4b) Again, What? No you have your speculation on back words. Srila Prabhupada made the best use of a bad bargan, he used as he saw fit those that came to him. Do you think that Prabhupada cherry picked us from the lot? Duh, you said yourself we are just demons/raksasas. So at the time of concideration, they were following the rule and regulations. Fell later. Other gurus do not concern us.


    Be carful we bite!


    Hare Krsna





    It's strange, but when I read Gaudiya Vaishnava books, I at least get the impression that there are some interesting beliefs there. But when I see Gaudiya Vaishnavism in practice (i.e. people like you, Andy, Theist, Ghari), all I see are a bunch of ignorant bullies. How can there be such stark discrepancy between "Gaudiya Vaishnavism: the beliefs" and "Gaudiya Vaishnavism: the reality?"


    Actually you have never 'seen' any of us in action, that post on this forum. It is just a forum, nothing more. Have a life off the key board. The devotees on this forum did have life in ISKCON, but you are to late(by 30 yrs in some cases) to know them as they were. We are old men now and for the most part were never in agreement with your contentions about IS-A-CON INC anyway.

    I do not know you! Your just TV to me. As for your claimed culture? Hello!!!! It's not there any more! Wake up!!! I've lived with your people, in India and Pakistan. It's hardly even a perverted reflection of vedic culture, just like pressent day ISKCON INC. What illusion!


    Read Bhagavad Gita by Srila Prabhupada, then you can see where we come from. If you read outside of the Gaudiya sect then try to impose on us what do you think will be the results?

    Hare Krsna




    Hey, tell the muslims they are shudras and you will get their version of your varna. Believe me it will not be anything close to the worst nightmare :)


    Not according to your own Baladeva. Shudras are exempt from studying scriptures. Now Prabhupada has digressed from his own sampradaya!?


    I have prerached to muslims, pathans in the Kyber/NWFP in fact. Had no problem. lived with them for almost a yr. I have preached the same conclusions of DVD in the deep south to blacks, also with no problems.


    Your a shrill that is not here to hear. Did you also know that we do not chant 100k names a day, but only 25k. If you need help to find fault, just ask.


    No one here is asking you to join! So how my Guru conducts his mission is not of your concern. Kind of like a barking dog whom is not part of the caravan.


    Hare Krsna




    What's the proof that Prabhupad was an empowered acharya? Since he deviated from tradition, you ought to assume that he too was a cheater.

    First off where are your translations from? And an ISKCON officially approved anything means nothing on the street, just in the cult!


    What does anyone know about varna? Or vedic? What ever he has received from his guru! That is considering he has no excess baggage from his previous life. In this regard I do not! Most that actually accept Prabhupada are of various inclinations, hence varna and asrama division.


    We have as followers of Srila Prabhupada received definitions and explanation that he take as vedic scriptures. This is as much as we know. Prabhupada has said that we should divide the society into varna and asrama, four + four, the society of 8. Prabhupada has given the definition of those divisions. One of those varnas is sudra, but he is never to be considered like a mundane sudra. He is Vaisnava first and foremost! Everything he will get! If he follows the rules and regulations of his varna, that includes samskaras.


    Prabhupada said previously the thinking was that only brahmana could get perfection. With the Daivi Varnasrama Dharma division and execution, ALL varnas are spiritually equal. This is Srila Prabhupada's declaration for ISKCON, you do as you like.


    Once it is determined that a person is a particular varna he should be left to his work with no other encumbrance from the other varnas to forcibly improve. It can not be done, not by force. Why bother, just for your own ego? Leave him to him work for Krsna.


    We are Vaisnavas that perform our work in varna and asrama general divisions, with Krsna as central recipient. As explained in Bhagavad Gita, Who gives a ... who is in what varna? Just outsiders!!!! Prabhupada told us that do to the rejection of the sudra class in India, those rejected then sought shelter in Islam, people like you drove them away.


    As far as sudras studying scriptures? Hell, yes as much as he is capable, this is the Kali yuga, we are not here to follow perfect varna and asrama as applies to the Satya yuga. No, only as explained by our Guru!


    What ever the previous acaryas have written is amalgamated in the over all works of Srila Prabhupada. Delivering to us a completed plan for a house that the whole 10k yr golden age can live in. His complete vani constitutes, what I like to think, as the last word on of the consummate purport on all the predecessor acaryas. But that is me and mine, you do as you like, our sudra's will be literate for the purpose of reading the books of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

    Get the pure purports, trust no imitation explanations. Read the books.


    Hare Krsna




    What's the proof that Prabhupad was an empowered acharya? Since he deviated from tradition, you ought to assume that he too was a cheater.


    He introduced me to Krsna and I have seen Him face to face. Good enough for me! Judge by the result!


    What do I care about tradition? Nothing! What do I know about tradition? Nothing! I know what my Guru has said. He did not give any disciple authority to initiate inside of ISKCON. Bas! If they do? Cheater!


    Hare Krsna





    That is a candid admission. Can we agree then, that just as Prabhupada did something that Baladeva would never have sanctioned , it is also ok for Hridayananda to bless same sex couples?

    It is a different time after all, with different circumstances and just as Prabhupada deviated from tradition for this reason, Hridayananda should by the exact same logic, be able to do the same?



    This cheater in the dress of guru isn't an empowered acarya and there by he can not make policy that comes directly from Krsna. He must stay in line with his Guru, he is not guru himself. Never was and no amount of dummy followers will change that.






    You may be polarized on the mental plane by tendency (intellectual class), but the until you are relieved of the ignorant presumption that a person born in a sudra family is necessarily unqualified to be trained by a brahmana when his true inner nature is discovered as a mismatch for his birth circumstances, then perhaps you should just be a good sudra, stop reading the vedas, and take up some menial service under the direction of a broad-minded Madhva of Gaudiya Vaisnava Brahmana until you gain enough humility to throw you from your high horse and get with the program. Then we could start you on Bhagavad Gita and let your intellectual qualities flourish unbound by the ropes of your sanctimony.


    Good answer!




    When the devas captured Hiranyakasipu's wife, they decided to keep her imprisoned and wait till the child is born and then kill him. This decision by the devas is surely in full accordance with Manu-samhita and vedic knowledge.

    Narada Muni would have never told the devas to not kill the child when the child would have been a similar demon like his father Hiranyakasipu.



    King Indra said: In the womb of this woman, the wife of the demon Hiraṇyakasipu, is the seed of that great demon. Therefore, let her remain in our custody until her child is delivered, and then we shall release her.



    Indra, the King of heaven, decided to arrest Prahlada Maharaja’s mother because he thought that another demon, another Hiraṇyakasipu, was within her womb. The best course, he thought, was to kill the child when the child was born, and then the woman could be released.


    SB 7.7.10


    Yes, Prahlada was aloud to take birth. Then the devas could kill him. But again we are talking very exhaulted personallities making the discision to kill. Not common men.




    Expediting WW3 would be demonic. Responding to demonism with similar demonic deeds is not fit action for a Vaishnava. Whatever I do, I want there to be the least negative and/or positive karmic implications for both me personally and society in general. I don't have the requisite wisdom it takes to deal with this issue, so from now on, I will comment little on it.


    To curtail this seemingly inevitable outcome, I can only do my very small part by attempting to follow Prabhupad's instructions by attempting to do some sadhana daily and preach Bhagavat philosophy to whomever will listen. Some of our non-devotee friends may want to join us in going to temple for Gaura Purnim. So I can preach in a small way like that. I am a small fry without much realization, and little influence, but I keep chipping away at mayic misconception. The more people who become influenced by Bhagavat philosophy, the better chance we have at averting a nuclear holocaust. Nothing is written in stone, although it certainly looks like we are sliding ever closer to the precipice.


    I agree with Narasingh that for Vaishnavas the issue is more of a personal struggle than a societal one. Since societies around the world are rapidly becoming demonic, all we as Vaishnavas can do is attempt to maintain our punya and sadhana and sidestep the mutually assured destruction (MAD). Some of us will perish in it, some will survive it. For us it is about survival and maturation of spirit, not about survival of our body. In prior ages, this wouldn't happen on such a scale, and the scale it would happen on would be rapidly curtailed by kshatriyas.




    Narada Muni expedited many things that in the quick glance could have been deamed/seen negativly. Srila Prabhupada also spoke as if nuclear war it was a sure thing. But that it could change, it hasn't.


    I say like that because I thought we would have avoided this proposed inevitability by the spread of the Krsna conscious movement. So maybe the next stage of world wide spiritual growth has to be built from ashes like a phoenix that rises.


    I do not wish for it, but seems to be the enevitable conclution.




    Excellent point.It is stupid and unethical to expect a rape victim to bring the child in to the world .


    It is stupid and unethical to trunckate anyone's karma by the very unqualified. I've never read of anyone being qualified to decside about abortion. If you look at what Srila Prabhupada says on the subject, then how to argue against?


    That Vidura told Dhrtarastra to kill Duryodana is prime example of the right course of action. The child was born, karma was asertained, future was distruction of the royal family, kill it now. Instruction from the saintly person though.


    That was for the top most santly person to say, not your opinion or mine, which is like other parts of the body that we all poscess. And has no bases in shastra. Vidura's conclutions are not like common mans opinions.


    You do not have any right to abort a child in the womb because of rape. His karma is to come to a body created out of rape. That is now you business? It is his karma and the mother. That's like a woman saying she has self determination on how her body is to be used, but sex is for procreation and not recreation. If there is sex and pregnancy, then she has to have the child or be culpible for the karma of abortion. I'm not condoning rape, but now a body is created it has to be born. That is the rules, no killing womb babies.


    Hare Krsna, RCB


    Very touchy issue. I could tell you something that could conceivably be accomplished, but it would provoke World War 3, so I won't tell you. I now favor discrimination through intelligence as a means for me to see my way through this, which is more subtle than my baser gut-level instincts. WW3 is coming soon enough anyway, no need to hasten it. The Taliban do not need to get control of the whole of Pakistan, they only need to get control of one (1) nuke; they will then likely fire it at India, and that will be the actual beginning of WW3. Most of that war will be over within 72 hours or less, but the suffering will go on for months and years, likely decades.


    Here is a quote from Guru and Atma Nivedan; you can get this book through the links posted by LotusFlower:

    "The shastras, though they forbid us to associate with evil persons, in any way, never encourage us to speak ill of anyone, including these evil persons, at any time. By speaking ill of others we degrade ourselves."




    WWIII begain on 9/11/01, Bush said world war on terror. Just like WWII for amerika begain on 12/7/41. That the culmination of WWIII is nuclear exchange is a for gone conclution.


    So how would you stop or curtail this seamingly enevitable out come? Or expedite it?




    Well I am certainly not an expert on karma but it is a basic fact that what we do to others will be done to us. Call it good bad or neutral the same the similar will happen to us. This is karma at it's most basic level of understanding. If you don't accept this then you don't accept karma.


    Obviously there are individual considerations in each case but that is not understandable by us and therefore useless to try to speculate on.


    Here is a question for you. We see millions of abortions every year around the world. Why do you think some souls are made to experience such a thing as being aborted if not for taking part in abortion in their past?


    Good points, Krsna! your so patient. I'm looking for a stick!!! LOL.




    Good point, there must be a difference. The vedas say that the mental situation of a child is determined by the mental situation of the parents at the time when they make the child. In other words, if a young woman is raped by a convicted murderer who escaped from prison, the child will later on also become like his father. On the other hand, if Paris Hilton has a lover and gets pregnant, to abort in this case creates surely a totally different karma.


    So then your saying it would be ok to abort under a condition? Say like rape?




    Yeah, they say that the Mayan Calendar indicates that in late 2012 the Earth will be lined up with the dead center of the Milky Way galaxy and there will be a shift in the polar axis of the Earth.


    If you have any desires unfulfilled you have about 3 years to GET 'ER DONE!!


    Maybe a trip to Thailand?


    (just kidding)



    I know your kidding, I'm a little frivolous tonight too. I was hopeing for Daivi-Varnasrama-Dharma at least in a small start of a way, some way, any way. But no one can 'DO' it alone. Varna and asrama are one thing, but to come together in a dedicated/coopertive way, that's the 'rino' I'm hunting!! For 36 yrs! I guess it will be next life, oh well, lol. I tried and got some purified, so next time i will hit it in stride.


    "I'll be back"


    Hare Krsna, RCB




    It's the dance! There's gold in them thar hills!


    Chant Hare Krsna, experience all the thrills.


    All glories to Lord Varahadev




    Ps. I read in some purport that the earth could move out of orbit do to oil exploitation, found it!....globle/earth/climate changes anyone?



    SB. 2.7.1


    Lord Brahmā said: When the unlimitedly powerful Lord assumed the form of a boar as a pastime, just to lift the planet earth, which was drowned in the great ocean of the universe called the Garbhodaka, the first demon [Hiraṇyākṣa] appeared, and the Lord pierced him with His tusk.



    Since the beginning of creation, the demons and the demigods, or the Vaiṣṇavas, are always the two classes of living beings to dominate the planets of the universes. Lord Brahmā is the first demigod, and Hiraṇyākṣa is the first demon in this universe. Only under certain conditions do the planets float as weightless balls in the air, and as soon as these conditions are disturbed, the planets may fall down in the Garbhodaka Ocean, which covers half the universe. The other half is the spherical dome within which the innumerable planetary systems exist. The floating of the planets in the weightless air is due to the inner constitution of the globes, and the modernized drilling of the earth to exploit oil from within is a sort of disturbance by the modern demons and can result in a greatly harmful reaction to the floating condition of the earth. A similar disturbance was created formerly by the demons headed by Hiraṇyākṣa (the great exploiter of the gold rush), and the earth was detached from its weightless condition and fell down into the Garbhodaka Ocean. The Lord, as maintainer of the whole creation of the material world, therefore assumed the gigantic form of a boar with a proportionate snout and picked up the earth from within the water of Garbhodaka. Śrī Jayadeva Gosvāmī, the great Vaiṣṇava poet, sang as follows:

    vasati daśana-śikhare dharaṇī tava lagnā

    śaśini kalaṅka-kaleva nimagnā

    keśava dhṛta-śūkara-rūpa

    jaya jagadīśa hare


    "O Keśava! O Supreme Lord who have assumed the form of a boar! O Lord! The planet earth rested on Your tusks, and it appeared like the moon engraved with spots."

    Such is the symptom of an incarnation of the Lord. The incarnation of the Lord is not the concocted idea of fanciful men who create an incarnation out of imagination. The incarnation of the Lord appears under certain extraordinary circumstances like the above-mentioned occasion, and the incarnation performs a task which is not even imaginable by the tiny brain of mankind. The modern creators of the many cheap incarnations may take note of the factual incarnation of God as the gigantic boar with a suitable snout to carry the planet earth.

    When the Lord appeared to pick up the earth, the demon of the name Hiraṇyākṣa tried to create a disturbance in the methodical functions of the Lord, and therefore he was killed by being pierced by the Lord's tusk. According to Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, the demon Hiraṇyākṣa was killed by the hand of the Lord. Therefore his version is that after being killed by the hand of the Lord, the demon was pierced by the tusk. Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura confirms this version.

  • Create New...