bhaktatraveler

Sorry for the off subject posts.

Back to Gurukripa's article.

I was repulsed by his claim to fame do to the fact that he has been to the last 25 kartiks in a row and yada, yada, yada, hasn't. Shit, I would love to have such facility, but that I do not, am I less a devotee or unworthy because of poverty and he is automaticaly qualified do to oppulence? No! of couse not, but this is the Gurukripa that I knew in Santa cruz early 80's. A puffed up condescending jerk that I wrote off after repeated attempts at befriending, if just on a social level only. The guy couldn't look me in the eye for more than a few seconds at a time, let alone have a lengthy conversation on a subject deeper than weather or football(sorry don't follow any sports, not even car racing).

No these idols will always look for ever newer slows to take aderation and distintion from, vampires.

So that mood all in the service of Srila Prabhupada is purified, but for himself, he might have to fast talk Lord Yamaraja like anything if he doesn't watch out. You know what they(Iso 12) say about phony gurus.

RCB

I won't tell on you if you don't tell on me.

 

We were neighbors in Badger.

That should say all there is to say.

THAT? That was just recreation, lol. No, No ,No, what I'm talking about.....I can't.

RCB

Well, I figure the judge is a higher authority than me and if he excuses Gurukripa then I would be getting in some deep stool to dredge up all his past sins and broadcast them on the internet.

 

 

Anyway, you know me CB and you know that I am in no position to criticize

Gurukripa.

 

If I write off Gurukripa then I have to write off myself.

 

I am even crazier than you know.

No! do not write him off, but keep perspective. I was just checking motivation and you gave a great answer, LOL. That he is someones cup of tea is surely not my business. But as a KC leader here and now? Please not again, he had his chance and blew it

Aren't we all a little crazier than the public knows, LOL?

RCB

Origins: Lemming suicide is fiction. Contrary to popular belief, lemmings do not periodically hurl themselvs off of cliffs and into the sea. Cyclical explosions in population do occasionally induce lemmings to attempt to migrate to areas of lesser population density. When such a migration occurs, some lemmings die by falling over cliffs or drowning in lakes or rivers. These deaths are not deliberate "suicide" attempts, however, but accidental deaths resulting from the lemmings' venturing into unfamiliar territories and being crowded and pushed over dangerous ledges. In fact, when the competition for food, space, or mates becomes too intense, lemmings are much more likely to kill each other than to kill themselves.

 

Is this a fact? How appropriate, lol.

I have to happily agree with Theist and who ever else also said follow the heart. This what I have done for 55 out of 60 yrs. Follow the heart and be true to yourself. Ask for the truth, the HOLE truth, and NOTHING but the truth and you will not go wrong. I found the Gita in a book store. Got preminently hooked, then found ISKCON. But they had little effect on me spiritually, that was always between me, Krsna and Guru.

RCB

It seems Suchandra has an eye for the truth sometimes. Speaks the truth even when unpalatable. G-Krpa's interview is somewhat similar and in the same vein as Hrydayananda's email missive. Mostly a show. Too little to late, but better than nothing.

 

Suchandra doesn't want people to get hoodwinked again by this character and raises some important questions and makes good points. Especially after all the glorification of Gurukrpa that sprung up on this thread got a little heavy. I mean sure, recognize his good points, but be realistic about the Prabhu, after all he is a known manipulator. Buyer beware.

This is good! For Krsna's service Gurukripa's apparent sinful actions are not concidered. But this is not the case in and throughout his life exclusively.

And what about his boys that helped? Gurukripa had help! Who were they? let us not forget them and give as much praise. A leader is nothing without followers, he had a good crew too. That Prabhupada focused on Gurukripa does not mean that the crew is do-do. I saw once that Prabhupada said there is no definition of King without no subjects. And yes I agree that that includes me.

RCB

Gurukripa is spotless.

What spots?

I don't see any spots.

The spots must be in your eyes.

 

Gurukripa is a great devotee.

No spots that I can see.

 

Flys of a feather fly together.................buzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

 

 

Gurukripa Maharaja......

 

Are you just playing the bad guy like you said you enjoyed doing? Or is this idol worship real? A little over the top, wouldn't you say? Or as a laugh, I guess not, LOL.

RCB

Wait a minute, how did he become a sinful fault finder? Is it fault finding to say Satvarupa is fallen to sex? Oh, but he did so much service, so all is ok? When did that happen? I suggest a happy medium, for Krsna? Yes! For our selves? NO!

Prabhupada used snuf to keep alert during translations sometimes, I have seen as his guard. Did Prabhupada break the rules. NO! It was snuf for Krsna's service, not self pleasure. If Bankok revved Gurukripa's motor in direct service, then have another, maybe two at a time, LOL. But for the self? No, then fallen. Then black.

LEC SB 2.9.9 Tokyo 4/25/72

Prabhupāda: Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate. Nārthasya dharmaikāntasya kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ. Yes. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate. One should not execute religious principles for getting better financial or material facility. That is not the purpose. But they have taken it purpose. "We have supported this religious community—we must become victorious of our whimsical declaration of war." That Kṛṣṇa supported the Battle of Kurukṣetra, it was not whimsical declaration of war. Before declaring war, Pāṇḍavas, even Kṛṣṇa tried to stop it in so many ways. When Duryodhana clearly said that "Not even that portion of land which can hold the tip of a needle can be given to you without war..." They were, Kṛṣṇa personally requested that "They are kṣatriyas. They cannot take up the work of a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra or a vaiśya. So better you give them five villages only. Let the five brothers rule over them." He replied, "What do You say of five villages? Not that portion of land which can hold the tip of a needle I can give them without war." Therefore the war was declared: "All right. Decide by war." That was not a whimsical war manufactured and maneuvered by the politician. That is dharma-yuddha. When you encroach upon my right, there must be. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam [Īśo mantra 1]. You cannot encroach upon others' right.

So the animal killer, they are encroaching upon others' right. These cows and goats, they are also living entities, they have got right to live. When there is absolute necessity, that is a different thing. But you cannot encroach upon their right of living simply to satisfy the taste of your tongue. That is the greatest sin. Similarly illicit sex. One has got wife and he is having illicit sex with other woman, that is, that is crime. "You want to satisfy your sex? All right. You have got legitimate wife.No. I want to satisfy my senses." Therefore illicit sex is sinful. You have got many other foodstuff. Why should you satisfy your senses by killing some other right of living? Therefore it is... Why it is sinful anyone can understand. Just like if I have no money, that does not mean to secure money I shall take your money. Then I am thief. You cannot say, "Oh, I have no money. This man has got so much money. Therefore I have taken some money." Will the court excuse you? Even if you have no food, you cannot encroach upon other's right unless you are sanctioned. Therefore according to Vedic system, the meat-eater is given chance by sacrificing an animal before some demigod. Not free slaughterhouse. No. That you cannot do. Undergoing that process, someday he will come to his senses that "Meat-eating and killing of animal is not good." Because there are so many mantras. If you understand mantras, the mantra, when a goat is sacrificed before Goddess Kālī, before the goat being cut by his throat, the priest says that "Because you are sacrificing your life before Goddess Kālī, next life you are going to have human form of body for your, this sacrifice." Otherwise you have to undergo the process. That is gradual evolutionary process. But because you are forced somehow or other in the presence of mother material energy, she will give you the facility to promote immediately to the human form of life. And as human being, you will have every right to kill this man who is killing you. That is meaning of māṁsa. Mām means me, sa means he. "He will also eat me." So I will have to take the form of a goat next life. And he will take the form of a human being and he will get the chance of killing me. He can excuse, but he will get the chance. This is the bandhana. Karma-bandhana.

So after hearing all these mantras, if one takes the risk of eating meat, let him do that. But who is that sane man who will take this risk? This is the meaning of sacrifice. Not that it is a slaughterhouse substitute. No. They will understand that what kind of risk they are going to take by killing the animal under the name of sacrifice. Another thing is that to sacrifice the goat before the demigod Kālī means it is restricted. Because the prescription is that one can sacrifice a goat before Goddess Kālī on the dark moon night, amāvasyā. That is once in a month. So even the śāstra gives him the facility, the facility is restricted. As much as marriage. What is the difference between married sex and without wife? Restricted. You restrict to one woman. You don't spoil many women and get syphilis disease. You see? This is restricted. Restricted to one man, restricted to one woman, restricted once in a month.

So actually whenever there is sanction in the śāstra, that is not encouraging. That is restriction. So one cannot give this evidence, "Oh, your Vedas say this is sanctioned." But that sanction is restriction. Loke vyavāyāmiṣa-madya-sevā nityā hi jantor na hi tatra codanā. The śāstra is not encouraging. Because there is no need of encouraging. It is already known to him. Why the śāstra encourage? This is not encouragement. This is restriction. The same example can be given. Just like when government opens liquor shop it is not encouragement. It is restriction. You cannot have liquor manufactured by yourself anywhere, everywhere; otherwise it will increase more and more. So you have to pay heavy tax and purchase. And there are so many other rules and regulations. So this is restriction. When there is liquor shop licensed by the government, it does not mean it is encouragement. At least that is the philosophy. It is restriction. So all these facilities given sometimes in the śāstras or by the government for drinking or for intoxication or for sex or for gambling, that is restricted. Gambling, kṣatriyas, they can gamble. They must have the sporting spirit. Otherwise when they are defeated they will succumb to death. So they have to... The gambling, I lose one hundred thousand dollars, "Never mind. It is sporting." Otherwise I will succumb to death. I have been... What? That is being done in gambling clubs. But if you do it in a sporting habit, then "Never mind. I gain or lose, it is nothing." That's all. Kṣatriyas are allowed because when they fight they will have to gain or to lose. But if they lose, if they become succumbed, then it will be very difficult for them. They are allowed to hunt. If they cannot kill, then how can they rule over the criminals? The kṣatriya king, "Oh, he is a criminal"? Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. Such a Vaiṣṇava king. As soon as he saw somebody is trying to kill a cow, immediately took his sword: "What nonsense you are doing? Immediately I shall kill you." A kṣatriya must be spirited. Immediately cut off. Even in England, that was the practice. They used to practice dummy men cut head. The king must be like there.

Sudāmā: Here also. Here also there was a class of men called samurai, and they carried long sword and short sword. And they had certain rules for fighting. They would never fight a man unless he was equally matched. And if he lost, then he must take... If I lose the battle then I must take the short sword and kill myself for shame, for dishonor.

Prabhupāda: Not only that, when Kṛṣṇa was fighting with Rukmiṇī's brother, he lost his chariot. So, and Rukmiṇī took the sword. So Kṛṣṇa also throw His bow and arrows. He also took the sword. Not that "I shall possess better weapons to kill you." No. Equal. Equal terms. "If you have no sword, I will give you a sword." Yes. "Take this sword. I take another." That is kṣatriya spirit. Sporting. So for kṣatriya, this animal killing, this, which is abominable, but they require.

Devotee: Intoxication too?

Prabhupāda: Intoxication also. Just like Balarama, He was drinking madhu. Yes. You have not seen it? He was also enjoying in the company of women. Because He is kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas are allowed polygamy, drinking, intoxication, because they are king. They must have facility. At the same time they are ruling over the country. They take consulting great sages, saintly persons. And if he is not in order, these saintly persons would dethrone him. Pṛthu Mahārāja's father was killed, Veṇa. He was not according to the system. He was killed.

Pradyumna: I don't understand how sometimes we..., how the intoxication of some type of wine would go along with the ruling of a country.

Prabhupāda: Well, for rulers is a pleasure. They must have some pleasure. Just like ordinary men, they drink with woman, dancing, it is a recreation. So this is material recreation, to be little intoxicated and several nice young girls around. That gives him some encouragement. You see? They have to take so much risk, so much responsibility. For recreation they require it. They should be given little facility.

Devotee: Can they still make spiritual advancement?

Prabhupāda: Well, spiritual advancement is going on. They are taking advice from great saintly persons, they are observing, they are performing big sacrifices, spending money, treasury. That is their spiritual advancement. You are satisfying Kṛṣṇa in spite of... All these devatās, the demigods, they also enjoy. In higher planetary system, like Indra, he is prostitute hunter number one, Indra. (laughter) But he is a great devotee at the same time.

Pradyumna: But he is still in material world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is material. So those who are going to directly to transfer to the spiritual world, for them all these things are prohibited. But those who want to remain here, at the same time they have got some particular duty, these are also. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says those who are preparing bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya niṣkiñcanasya, they must give up all these things. They should be niṣkiñcana.(END)

RCB

I have to agree with you a bit here. But then he is inconcequential to me. They all were! In fact I never could understand what the hubbub was about, these cheaters were as transparent then as they are now. He was never in my life and I was never a groupie of anyone. A good kirtan was just that, a good kirtan and I was happy to be part of it. Devotees forget to easily that in a kirtan there are also the followers and if they are not concidered part then how did the kirtan get to be so good? EVERYONE participated! Kirtan is a group effort.

RCB

that was a payback for Karna's un-aryan behavior when killing Arjuna's son, Abhimanyu

But done is done. That's the point. If done purely in conection to Krsna, then there is no adharma. Don't through Krsna's babies out with bath water.

RCB

Just curious. Didn't Krisha himself advocate adharmic means to achieve a dharmic end? Doesn't this show that it's only the end that matters, and if the end is dharmic, then the means wouldn't matter that much?

There is a nice example of the devotee that was giving Lord Caitanya a massage. In order to serve both sides of the Lord's body the devotee steps over the lord! Then when finished he steps back. In the mean time lunch prasadam has come, but the Lord is in the doorway and blocking entrance. The devotee waits until the Lord awakens. When ask by Lord Caitanya, that the devotee stepped over the Lord to give service but not for lunch, why. The devotee says for the Lord anything, for myself all rules and regulations.

RCB

I Walk the Line by Hari Cash

I keep a close watch on this heart of mine

I keep my eyes wide open all the time

I keep the ends out for the tie that binds

Because you're mine, I walk the line

I find it very, very easy to be true

I find myself alone when each day is through

Yes, I'll admit that I'm a fool for you

Because you're mine, I walk the line

As sure as night is dark and day is light

I keep you on my mind both day and night

And happiness I've known proves that it's right

Because you're mine, I walk the line

You've got a way to keep me on your side

You give me cause for love that I can't hide

For you I know I'd even try to turn the tide

Because you're mine, I walk the line

I keep a close watch on this heart of mine

I keep my eyes wide open all the time

I keep the ends out for the tie that binds

Because you're mine, I walk the line

Although I'm a known Rocker, I grew up with a combo of country, Bach, big band and Evis! But Johnny is the real King!!! Just love the KC conection here.

RCB

That is hearsay, undocumented rumor and has nothing legitimate to support that claim.

 

It is one of them "Prabhupada said" stories that there is no verifiable evidence of.

It's just an ISKCON rumor.

I can't find the letter now but I have seen this and it is true! My old folio died along with my broken hard drive, LOL.

RCB

Were do you see Hridayananda praising homosex? Did he initiate these guys? So what is your basic malfunction?

 

As to the Mott Street boys being EVER reformed is an open question. Bhavs was never reformed either and the Mayapur shooting incident was caused by him punking a local kid - that is based not on official Iskcon legend but on the testimony of people who were there at the time. Perhaps Prabhupada did not know about their homosexual exploits after initiation, but I doubt it. These guys had a lot of enemies who knew what was going on and who had direct access to SP.

 

Again, I see that as the principle of 'end justifies the means'. You condemn theft, you condemn homosexuality, but under some circumstances you give it sanction. Did Prabhupada not tell some gay disciple (Umapati?) to stick to one boyfriend and practice KC? If so, what is your problem with Hridayananda's blessing?

Again the word reform comes to mind, if they did not reform then the mercy is recinded.

Prabhupada said that in a private letter. Not in an open class, nor in a open conversation with His disciples, and absolutly not in any books. So now you want to again make a comparison of apples to oranges for the benifit of homos and low class, charlitan so-called gurus.

RCB

Yes, that was the practice: end justifies the means. And this approach had very serious consequences for our movement. Very bad consequences.

Not the approach, which is explained by Prabhupada as OK. It was the practisioners.

RCB

No.

He was a "reformed" homo, not an "Openly" homo.

Don't try to say that Prabhupada gave any position to any "openly" or practicing homosexual.

That would be just wrong and you should know that by know.

And that's the rub, Kula speaks pure poison on this subject.

RCB

It would appear that for these two individuals Hridayananda swami is some sort of an authority figure who tries to encourage them in spiritual life. Hence the comparison. Jumping to conclusions is your act.

Are you on a merrily-go-around? I quoted you, but didn't jump on with you! That he is guru to homo's is a foregone conclusions. Srila Prabhupada condemed homosex, but accepted REFORMED fags/persons as desciples. the opperative word here is reformed. Not that they were fallen and Prabhupada them gave 'marrage' sanction!

And to compare all gurus as one in qualification is nuts. Just like when Nanda Maharaja had a big fire sacrifice he did not invite the lesser qualified brahmans, though they too were brahmanins.

RCB

So you are saying that SP had no idea how the money was collected by Gurukripa and others? That nobody warned him that money was being collected by crooked means? That is not what I heard from those who were close to these issues. That he thought vast sums of money were collected even as the numbers of books distributed by these people could not account for the profits?

 

Interesting...

Prabhupāda: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this varṇāśrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position.

Parivrājakācārya: So the students, also, they must all be devotees.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul.

Satsvarūpa: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as vaiśya or...

Prabhupāda: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopīs, even up to the point of becoming prostitute—for Kṛṣṇa. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Kṛṣṇa we have to do that.

Hṛdayānanda: So, Prabhupāda, in our temples, we have so many devotees. Should the devotees...?

Prabhupāda: They should be engaged.

Hṛdayānanda: Should they be trained in a particular...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plough department, agriculture.

Hṛdayānanda: Those who cannot preach.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as kṣatriya or vaiśya, or as śūdra.

Hṛdayānanda: And sometimes...

Prabhupāda: :Not he's śūdra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy.

There were plenty of other choices as Prabhupada had a lot of disciples to chose from. Perhaps he did not see homosexual background of his disciples as very dangerous. He certainly did not make a very big deal out of it.

OH MY GOD! Have you not searched homosex on the folio? Have you not read these results? Please show homosex minimaztion, as to be not so important a concideration. No not there! I have seen and so have others that Prabhupada even periodically had a hard time referenceing the subject.

No problem with it?

RCB

Srila Prabhupada had compassion and tremendous faith in the purifying power of the holy name. That is why he did not hesitate to use very degraded people for very important jobs in his movement. That strategy did not always produce good results, but I can appreciate Prabhupada's compassion for these people.

 

Some people here show very little compassion, just like the Bible influenced primitives who think all gay people should be stoned to death. That is un-Vedic, and un-Vaishnava.

 

I do not think that gay marriages are something our society should embrace with open arms. But I also do not want such people to be treates as untouchables. ANYONE can practice Krsna consciousness and ALL should be encouraged to do so. That is what H.S was doing in this email.

Prabhupada said homosex is OUTSIDE of DVD, untouchables. But WHO IS SAYING an untouchable can not practice devotion as best as posible?????? In you mind only.

RCB

Yes, you will justify whatever Prabhupada did as "doing the best with a bad bargain" - even when ultimately such a move caused a lot of problems for our movement (like with K-swami and Bhavs), but you will not give ANY benefit of a doubt to a simple email Hridayananda Swami sent to a couple of congregational members for encouragement... you are obviously blind and prejudiced.

Different times, places and circumstances. Neither is (he) even a guru! let alone to be put in any way or form on the same level as comparable Srila Prabhupada's action? That you would in the same breath compare the two makes me vomit!!!!!

RCB

Then you know nothing about how the Vedic culture looked at that issue.

We know what Srila prabhupada says on the matter. I personally do not care if someone disagrees with that. I have to take the conclusions Prabhupada took. Homosex is outside of the four varnas and there by untouchable. Just like the cobbler.

Yes, Yes, what ever you say is good for you. I go with Prabhupada and we do not need to take any more lazies or crazy in the name of doing the best with a bad bargan as Srila Prabhupada abviously had to do and willingly did. Time to grow!

We aren't Prabhupada and it is not 1965/66 in the village.

RCB

Well, I have lived under military law where I was told where I lived and what work I did.

Martial law is child's play compared to military law.

With military law at least there is symbolence of law, in martial law there no law. Save and except at the buisness end of a weapon. Yes, I'm also ex-military and would chose them over martial law any day.

RCB

First, it was a rhetorical question.

Second, It appears that Srila Prabhupada is in a picture in the center.

But is this the real Prabhupada or is like when Ravana stole Sita?

What a trickster, LOL, then yes, you would be right in that context.

RCB

Yeah, I've gotten a whiff of that New World Odor. It's nasty.

Have any of you ever LIVED under martial law? I have for almost a yr, if it happens here it will not be a joke.

I remember a passage in the SB or no maybe a purport I think, that Prabhupada says the ksatriyas and brahmanas will hide from the government in caves to escape the turmoil caused by them in this age.

RCB

Who was your favorite?

The one in the picture!