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bhaktatraveler

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Posts posted by bhaktatraveler


  1.  

    Oh how nice.

    Another "Prabhupada said" for the books that there is no documented evidence for.

     

    Prabhupada didn't reveal his svarupa.

    It's a secret.

     

    He told me in a dream to ask Subal Sakha because he knows.

     

    I haven't yet had a chance to talk with Subal Sakha. ;)

     

    I have seen Prabhupada's svarupa and it is a secret only Prabhupada should tell you. Then you will also keep it secret! If they tell, know them to be dishonest. If you have to ask, your not ready for the answer.

     

    RCB


  2.  

    What people like Kulapavana and the sampradaya sun want to incite is that Western Vaishnavism is splitting into many fractions and become meaningless, thats all. Therefore they teach everyone should be guru, to be guru is also for neophytes, everything cheap, everybody acarya. To totally bring down Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan movement and destroy it in the name of defending it, that is their ambition. If anyone says, now just imagine the combined power of a global Vaishnava movement with Prabhupada as acarya and all affectionate Godbrothers, they immediately say, ritvik poison. They tell you directly, you're a demon. But writing articles about "Devotee Etiquette".

     

    Very well said!

     

    RCB


  3.  

    I read something that one of the acarayas said that if you go to the lord because you are in distress you are a sudra. If you go to him for money you are a vaisya. I can't remember what the ksaitrya one was. If you go to the Lord for wisdom you are a brahmana.

     

    Could the ksatriya be inquisitive? Was this from Prabhupada or a predecessor acaraya?

     

    RCB


  4.  

    I see this accusation *a lot* on this forum. Why is it that anyone who questions the Hare Krishna system or people must be doing so out of envy?

     

    Perhaps whenever you ask questions or disagree, you are doing so out of envy & you think that is the way it is with everyone. For instance, you do not agree with Mayavada beliefs. Is that out of envy? Or is it the usual case of double standards where the concept applies only to those who question your beliefs?

     

    Just FYI, there is nothing to be envious about at all. Not a single point that I can think of. So the questions are not out of envy, but something else. Like our friend Andy108 would say, I will let you figure that one out.

     

    Cheers

     

    I don't know, looks like a lot of warm air for such a simple agreement with your admission in a previous post. Pretty sure you said 'due to my latent envy' Good self assesment, you would know! I agree.

     

    RCB


  5.  

     

    From King Yudhisthira's

     

     

     

    Answers to Dharmaraja

     

     

    Yaksha: What make one a brahmana, birth, learning or behavior?

    Yudhisthira: It is behavior alone that make a person a brahmana. Even if one who is expert in the four Vedas, born of brahmana parents, but whose behavior is not proper should be considered a sudra.

     

    Two good quotes on two different subjects!

     

    RCB


  6.  

    Here are some quotes from Brahma-sutra Bhashaya of Sankara and SriBhashya of Ramanuja.

     

    "The Sudras are not qualified for that reason also that Gautama having ascertained Jabala not to be a Sudra from his speaking the truth, proceeded to initiate and instruct him. 'None who is not a Brahmana would thus speak out. Go and fetch fuel, friend, I shall initiate you. You have not swerved from truth.' (Ch up 4.4.5) Sankara Bhashya (1:3:37)

     

    "From those Sudras, however, who like Vidura and 'the religious hunter' acquire knowledge in consequence of the after effects of former deeds, the fruit of their knowledge cannot be witheld, since knowledge in all cases brings about its fruit." (Sankara 1.3.38)

     

    "Owing to the effect of former actions, which ahd not yet worked themselves out, they were born in a low caste, while at the same time they possessed wisdom owing to the fact that the knowledge acquired by then in former births had not yet quite vanished." (Ramanuja 1.3.33)

     

    "Even a person who because he does not belong to an ashrama stands between as it were, is qualified for knowledge. 'For that is seen'. For we meet wth scriptural passages declaring that persons of that class such as Raikva and the daughter of Vachanu--possessed the knowledge of Brahman (ch 4.1, Bri 3.6.8)"(Sankara3.4.36)

     

    "Smriti also declares that men not belonging to an ashrama grow in knowledge through prayer and the like. 'Through prayer (japa) also a Brahmana may become perfect May he perform other works or not, who befriends all creatures is called a Brahmana (Manu Smriti 2.17)' " (Ramanuja 3.4.37)<!--QuoteEnd-->

     

    Nice quotes Kula!

     

    RCB


  7.  

    I hope you voted Democrat!!!

     

    hillaryradha.jpg

     

    This has to be one of the most disturbing things I ever seen! Reminds me of Hendrix's face supper imposed over Lord Visnu on an album cover. Was that 70'?

     

    I do not vote for non devotees, nor unqualified ones that run for office. No didn't vote for the new talking head.

     

    Did you see that photo on the cover of Vogue magazine stating that Michele was the first lady amerika was waiting for? She gave the sign of the devil with her left hand, just like Bush did for 8 yrs! New boss, is the old boss. Disturbing picture!

     

     

    RCB


  8.  

    But all this talk on varna misses the point Kapila is making and Prabhupada makes in the purport. Forget sudra this and that for a moment.

     

     

     

    Beyond the abstract there is a real change of consciousness that must be individually experienced. Too often we develop a false sense of security in our performance of religious rites and rituals falling short of actually developing a personal relationship with the Lord.

     

    Hare Krsna Theist

     

    Yeah, I get your point now. Well made. I admit, I read to fast with my one(DVD) purpose in mind. Which comes from MY supersoul, to thy own heart be true. Is there an applicable example that brought this to you mind at this time?

     

    Thanks Andy108(why have I called you adam? Duh)you read me like a book at times.

     

    Hare Krsna, RCB


  9.  

    Of course he is attempting to minimize you and your effort. How else will the Big Ragu maintain the High Holy stature he imagines himself to have? His existence is so puny that all he can do is try to squeeze everyone else around him into even smaller morsels so he can convince himself he is King of the Hill.

     

    Unfortunately King Ragu is so lost in the sauce, that he swam up and bit the toe of a Bhakti Raja, thinking it was a meatball, and now is choking on the indigestion.

     

    They will always be small men inside. That is OK if they stay out of the way of movers and shakers. I'm ready for many years, but their free will has it's own way. They are not even up to the level to take the heat my monkey sons get, let alone to follow actual dedication in the samkirtan movement. It's all a joke to them! Not me! Not you!

     

     

     

    RCB


  10.  

    In response to:

     

    Originally Posted by raghu

    Since I did not get any answers, and since the only responses were once again evasive, let me again put forth the questions. I really do not understand what is so childish about asking these questions. Yes, I know, I'm a new kid, i'm evil, i'm a bigot, etc. But please, can we have a focused discussion?

     

    1) The disciples of Prabhupada who are currently gurus - are they all brahmins? Yes or no?

     

    2) The disciples of Prabhupada who were formerly gurus but then fell down - were they brahmins? Yes or No?

     

    3) If the disciples of Prabhupada who fell down were not gurus, then why did Prabhupada initiate them as brahmins? Did he (a) do so knowing that they were not brahmins, or (b) do so because he did not know if they were brahmins or not?

     

    4a) If the answer to question (3) is choice (a), then how do you rationalize giving initiations to a non-brahmin when you claim that one is only a brahmin based on conduct/qualification?

     

    4b) If the answer to question (3) is choice (b), then when even Prabhupada (whom you no doubt consider the topmost guru) could mistakenly identify someone as a brahmin, then how are other gurus supposed to correctly identify brahmins prior to initiation?

     

     

     

     

    If the current gurus are not brahmanas, then why are they gurus? Better to be an unqualified non-brahmin then a qualified caste-brahmin, eh?

     

     

     

    So your concept of a brahmana is that one can be a brahmana at some times and not at others. How interesting.

     

    Since varnas are totally dynamic, and a person can be multiple varnas within a single lifetime, who keeps track of that all? Is there a registry somewhere? Or does everyone just make up their own decision at any given time as to what varna one belongs to?

     

     

     

    What an admission! You just insulted thousands and thousands of iskcon disciples.

     

     

     

    So let me see I got this straight:

    1) A brahmana cannot become a guru (they are "mutually exclusive")

    2) I have to consult an individual no longer present on this plane of existence to find out why Prabhupada initiated unqualified people. In the meantime, I should have no doubts that his doing so was in any way improper.

    3) You basically do not know what you are talking about.

     

     

     

    So, qualification for guru-hood is also a dynamic thing? It need not be a permanent feature? I am learning something new about gaudiya vaishnavism all the time!

     

     

     

    So you are saying that he knowingly initiated unqualified people.

     

    I am unclear on why (1) using birth to determine varna is evil, and yet (2) knowingly initiating unqualified rAkshasas as brahmanas is more sensible.

     

    Of course, this might just be due to my latent envy.

     

     

    Yes you are envious.

     

    You are saying they are guru not me.

     

    One can fall from a high place. One can raise to a higher place. But no yoyoing back and forth.

     

    Guna and karma can been observed. No one can just make a thing up. Ksatriya is the over seer of all varnas and asramas. But does not govern the brahmans.

     

    I will insult these IS-A-CON cheaters again and again. That is MY varna's job.

     

    To really address you is just a waste of time but hell I have all knight. You make so much up. Prabhupada initiated reformed people that latter fell, how you can not understand this I do not know. You bog down the converstion with so much debris it is like clogging a streams flow. You will never know anything of Prabhupada why are you here? To make a bigger ego for your self diluted mind I think.

     

    RCB


  11.  

    That is truly a shame.

     

    If you had instead chosen to fight over instituting Blu-Ray, you would have gotten twice the resolution for only a marginal increase in price. :rofl:

     

    I've lost nothing, everything is as it always should have been. The good, the bad, the ugly. It's all part of the training! No loss, nor diminution. I'm in the right place, at the right time, doing exactly what I should be.

     

    To me I take it all serious, not as a joke. I feel that you are minimizing the effort I put toward preaching to devotees as if it was just a 'joke'. Not to me!

     

    RCB


  12.  

     

     

     

     

     

    mred1.jpg

     

     

     

    Get some horse-sense, Prabhu. A Century means 100 years. We are talking about the changes in a language such as English that occur over hundreds and then thousands of years. When Prabhupada said these books are for the next ten thousand years, he meant the Srimad Bhagavatam as compiled by Veda Vyasa with the commentaries of the Acaryas, the Caitanya Caritamrta by Krsna das Kaviraja, and then the books that he had put into mid-twentieth Century English prose. But he was well aware that the language would change. He was not hung up on a particular form of language and that's why he allowed his books to be translated into such modern languages such as Spanish, French, German etc. Take it from the horses mouth.

     

    Yes other languages, but not re-editing the original books, like a constantly changing Christian bible.

     

    I think there will always be those brahman/ksatriya that will keep the original english in vogue. The lower class might lose it. Starting with Ebonics and the like. But not the leaders. Or what good are they? I think no change will be a symptom of DVD institution too. What happened from before, is past. I was told to never change what Prabhupada gave.

     

    RCB


  13.  

    Ed, you are a:

     

    414975-thumb.jpg

    Everyone knows that andy108 is correct and that now all languages will stay the same. Therefore in 9,967 years people in the good old U.S. of A. and all English speaking, God fearing countries, will still be reading the original unchanged versions of Srila Prabhupada's books.

     

    We will have as much a chance at unchanged, as we have the gonads to DO like that. You have no chance! Weak a$$ sudra talk. Always quiting as soon as a little effort comes your way. Typical.

     

    RCB

     

    I still have my first BG that I bought in a hippy book store in West Palm Beach in 74' and an unchanged set of SB, CC, NOD, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, KB(all 1st ED) I collected before the passing of Srila Prabhupada. I will pass them along as historic heirlooms. If you have changed books, that is what you will pass on to the next generation. A different thing.

     

    I will try in this body till death, you have already quit!

     

    Hare Krsna

     

    RCB


  14.  

    Among Vaishnavas caste should be ignored

     

    This is not the full conclusion of Srila Prabhupada, so I will please take to Him only and not you, do not mind it.

     

    We still need to concider that an actual pure devotee is rare, the term 'Vaisnava' is cheaply bantered about as if it applies to all of us as equal to the uttama devotee. That we are madhyam and kanishta proves conditioning and motivation, not purity. So for management in society we must still divide as Prabhupada said to do. But still maintaning edicate balance treating one and all as on the at least begining stages of transendental understanding. That is for the followers of Prabhupada.

     

    RCB


  15.  

    No it's not. It takes some humility. Even though the religious process we identify with is in the mode of goodness and leading to pure bhakti if we preform it in the mode of ignorance we miss out on the essence.

     

    I have to not agree with this. If it is so then the DVD paradigum would be incorrect. Srila Prabhupada has said that the person in ignorance(sudra) gets everything that the brahman gets. Because all are to be concidered transendental and not of these varnas or asramas. But just acting out for the sake of guna and karma that the devotee is by nature incline to.

     

    But if your speaking about the blade of grass in Vaikuntha as compared to the madhurya lila in Goloka then yes we will miss the highest essence

     

    (I'm probably on his ignore list, LOL)

     

    Hare Krsna

     

    RCB


  16.  

    all the power to you and other secret leaders Prabhupada appointed but kept hidden so that they can come out 40 years later to save his movement... I only wonder why he has not made you leaders from the very beginning?

     

    Hidden? NO, suppressed. I've always been here, day one.

     

    How do you know I'm not the leader? Did Srila Prabhupada's Godbrother's neglect of Him stop progress in His life? Follow as you like, does not interfear with my progressive training by action and experience. Through my ever pressent Guru.

     

    RCB


  17.  

    Srila Prabhupada gave power to a lot of ambitious and unqualified people, like Gurukripa of this thread, creating a top down authocratic management system extremely easy to abuse. Iskcon history is full of examples showing how poorly this system worked.

     

    Of course the dogmatists like you will argue that no changes are needed - you most likely have a hard time conceiving that there ARE better systems of management. You just like to blame only the people who were executing this system for it's failures.

     

    To a pragmatist like me there is no question Iskcon management should be reformed, perhaps using DOM as a starting kernel of the new system. Why? Because people are NOT perfect, and they WILL try to abuse power given a convenient situation. When creating a mangement system you MUST consider the level of skill and the quality of people who will be implementing it in real life.

     

    Here we go again! ISKCON history is full of I, me, mine, the instructions were always good. The baby is clean, a bath is useless.

     

    Srila Prabhupada put in place many changes that were never followed. YES, I agree to blame the devotees and not the Guru. The failure is yours, you followed the a$$holes, not me. I fought them from day one to institute DVD! You followed like sheeple.

     

    In real life I would not trust you with my life/to cover my back. You and your demon-crazy vote will do more harm tham good in the short run. In the long run ISKCON as a movement of Srila Prabhupada's invention will disappear utterly and compleatly. Oh that's right already there! So now you go have monkey vote and you do what they say.

     

    Me? never!! I follow brahmans! This DOM is another example of your infantile understanding of my Guru's attempt at governing brahmans. Vote was given to brahmans, to put to rest a take over/coup attempt. DVD was to be undertaken again for over all renovation of stated failures to partisipate honestly from the constituency. Purfect material/spiritual management.

     

    I have also seen Prabhupada say if you make it right there will be no problem. You are not a ksatriya! You can't make it right, doesn't mean I can't.

     

    Hare Krsna, RCB


  18.  

    In case you have not noticed, he is not around to make the changes needed now.

     

    In case you haven't noticed from past conversations on this type of subject, you have proven not to be qualified to make those possible alterations/ajustments(the real ajustment, is no more tolerating out of varna schleppies, so much will just fall into place after that) do to previously/pressent, misconsquewed conceptions. You applying change would be like giving the keys of a Ferrari to a 3 yr old. First reconcil anything for Krsna, then come back for the next lesson.

     

    You have voiced your partcial support for the pressent paradigum, guru club, ISKCON appointed by no objection vote. Give you keys? Ha! I know there is some one of them you have in the past given verbal support. You name them! Reject all of them as rascals and I would stand corrected.

     

    Adam108 handed you your butt and your standing there with poop on you.

     

    Hare Krsna, RCB


  19.  

    Humanbeings have to base their actions on Dharma and not by karma.

     

    This i believe is the guiding priniciple.This thread is prompted by the discussions on abortion but i dont wish to make it a starting point.

     

    Best to simply take instruction from a highly qualified Guru, like Srila Prabhupada. I just love this all inclusive verse!

     

     

    SB. 8.2.30....

     

    Thereafter, because of being pulled into the water and fighting for many long years, the elephant became diminished in his mental, physical and sensual strength. The crocodile, on the contrary, being an animal of the water, increased in enthusiasm, physical strength and sensual power.

     

    PURPORT

    In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with māyā we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyāsa.

    aśvamedhaṁ gavālambhaṁ

    sannyāsaṁ pala-paitṛkam

    devareṇa sutotpattiṁ

    kalau pañca vivarjayet

    </I>[Cc. </B>Ādi</B> </I>17.164</I>]</I>

     

    (Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa)

     

    From this we can understand that in this age the sannyāsa-āśrama is forbidden because people are not strong. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu showed us an example in taking sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four years, but even Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya advised Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to be extremely careful because He had taken sannyāsa at an early age. For preaching we give young boys sannyāsa, but actually it is being experienced that they are not fit for sannyāsa. There is no harm, however, if one thinks that he is unfit for sannyāsa; if he is very much agitated sexually, he should go to the āśrama where sex is allowed, namely the gṛhastha-āśrama. That one has been found to be very weak in one place does not mean that he should stop fighting the crocodile of māyā. One should take shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, as we shall see Gajendra do, and at the same time one can be a gṛhastha if he is satisfied with sexual indulgence. There is no need to give up the fight. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore recommended, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vān-manobhiḥ. One may stay in whichever āśrama is suitable for him; it is not essential that one take sannyāsa. If one is sexually agitated, he can enter the gṛhastha-āśrama. But one must continue fighting. For one who is not in a transcendental position, to take sannyāsa artificially is not a very great credit. If sannyāsa is not suitable, one may enter the gṛhastha-āśrama and fight māyā with great strength. But one should not give up the fighting and go away.(END)

     

    RCB


  20.  

    As far as the followers of Srila Prabhupada are told, they are to place themselve in a normal condition of life(DVD) and work dilligently for Krsna.

     

    The rest is made up and not completely in line with Prabhupada on the subject of brahman. Four varnas and four asramas is the right conclusion.

     

    Hare Krsna

     

    RCB

     

    TO Kaisersosa

    (Oh, I get it on the name. What was the name of that movie, The Usual Suspects? So your not whom you propose to be then? Yes? A shrill?)

     

    You next time read the books! Ignore the rest that claim different. On the other hand you may need a guide to show you the way around the incongruent obsticles that appear to the novice. But then why would Kaiser Sosay need anything? He is the fully equipted, quiescential bad guy!

     

    SB. 8.2.30.....

     

    Thereafter, because of being pulled into the water and fighting for many long years, the elephant became diminished in his mental, physical and sensual strength. The crocodile, on the contrary, being an animal of the water, increased in enthusiasm, physical strength and sensual power.

    PURPORT

    In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with māyā we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyāsa.

    aśvamedhaṁ gavālambhaṁ

    sannyāsaṁ pala-paitṛkam

    devareṇa sutotpattiṁ

    kalau pañca vivarjayet

    </I>[Cc. </B>Ādi</B> </I>17.164</I>]</I>

     

    (Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa)

     

    From this we can understand that in this age the sannyāsa-āśrama is forbidden because people are not strong. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu showed us an example in taking sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four years, but even Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya advised Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to be extremely careful because He had taken sannyāsa at an early age. For preaching we give young boys sannyāsa, but actually it is being experienced that they are not fit for sannyāsa. There is no harm, however, if one thinks that he is unfit for sannyāsa; if he is very much agitated sexually, he should go to the āśrama where sex is allowed, namely the gṛhastha-āśrama. That one has been found to be very weak in one place does not mean that he should stop fighting the crocodile of māyā. One should take shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, as we shall see Gajendra do, and at the same time one can be a gṛhastha if he is satisfied with sexual indulgence. There is no need to give up the fight. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore recommended, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vān-manobhiḥ. One may stay in whichever āśrama is suitable for him; it is not essential that one take sannyāsa. If one is sexually agitated, he can enter the gṛhastha-āśrama. But one must continue fighting. For one who is not in a transcendental position, to take sannyāsa artificially is not a very great credit. If sannyāsa is not suitable, one may enter the gṛhastha-āśrama and fight māyā with great strength. But one should not give up the fighting and go away.


  21.  

    Someone please enlighten me.

     

    Why are the Hare Krishnas obsessing about the varna-system? Why is it important for them to become Brahmanas?

     

    I fail to get it. Since the Hare Krishna's goal is Krishna, why this deep-seeded need to become a Brahmana? I don't see the link.

     

    It looks like they believe only Brahmanas are eligible for Krishna, which I find to be a very weird position for an international organization, not to mention lack of scriptural support for such a position.

     

    Cheers

     

    As far as the followers of Srila Prabhupada are told, they are to place themselve in a normal condition of life(DVD) and work dilligently for Krsna.

     

    The rest is made up and not completely in line with Prabhupada on the subject of brahman. Four varnas and four asramas is the right conclusion.

     

    Hare Krsna

     

    RCB


  22.  

    Not at all, the rest of the world didn't have brahmana's.

     

     

     

    Use some common sense when reading my posts, as well as other people's posts. It would answer a lot of your questions.

     

    I was giving an example of what a real brahamana could do. I thought that was obvious, sorry for giving you too much credit.

     

     

     

    More evidence that caste by birth people are incompetent.

     

    1. Real brahamana's wouldn't have allowed Muslim kings to sit on the throne, but they did.

     

    2. Real kshatriya's (leaders), who were trained by brahamana's, wouldn't have allowed foreignors to take over.

     

    3. Those countless Indian wars happened because fake brahamanas were the head of society, and if the head of society is weak so is the rest of the civilization.

     

    "Cheers"

     

    Yes, 'real' meaning by guna and karma, not birth only! That has some effect. But if it was perfect we would not have a commonly used terminology for failure to imbide the guna and karma of high class father, in the nomenclature of 'dvija-bandu'

     

    That's the fall down that has lead to India's previous distruction and keeps Her a laughing stock today. By birth gotra. India is our glorious Mother, why have they slaughtered Her with a by birth caste system?

     

    Hare Krsna, RCB

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