bhaktatraveler

I thought this was the real Hare Krsna dance:

 

 

 

 

 

dharmah svanusthitah pumsam

visvaksena-kathasu yah

notpadayed yadi ratim

srama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8)

Without hearing Krsna katha, everything one does is a waste of time. The Srimad Bhagavatam frankly informs us of this important message. Dharmah svanusthitah pumsam: you are doing dharma. That includes your following of daiva varnasrma dharma, chanting of harinama, serving the deities, so many limbs of vaidhi-bhakti, but if rati, deep attachment for hearing Hari katha (the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Sri Radha-Krsna), if this rati does not come, then srama eva hi kevalam. It is only srama-srama means hard labor, hard work for nothing.

Why not invite people to this program as Srila Prabhupada did by his life's work? Why invite them to dance with the devil in the pale Alachua moonlight?

 

 

 

 

 

Actually I spent my first yr here in Alachua inviting devotee every week(Saturday) to come and hear, chant and feast at my house. And each day after, my refrigerator was briming with un eaten prasadan from a feast that NO ONE except my family attended. Been there, done that. For a year with these people. Now I have to say they are of no use!!

I'm DVD trolling for the top .01%, if that is you, then I'm your man!

Hare Krsna

RCB

I thought this was the real Hare Krsna dance:

 

 

 

 

 

dharmah svanusthitah pumsam

visvaksena-kathasu yah

notpadayed yadi ratim

srama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8)

Without hearing Krsna katha, everything one does is a waste of time. The Srimad Bhagavatam frankly informs us of this important message. Dharmah svanusthitah pumsam: you are doing dharma. That includes your following of daiva varnasrma dharma, chanting of harinama, serving the deities, so many limbs of vaidhi-bhakti, but if rati, deep attachment for hearing Hari katha (the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Sri Radha-Krsna), if this rati does not come, then srama eva hi kevalam. It is only srama-srama means hard labor, hard work for nothing.

Why not invite people to this program as Srila Prabhupada did by his life's work? Why invite them to dance with the devil in the pale Alachua moonlight?

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly Begger I like your post! And the full moon night is opon us, LOL. Time to bark at the moon?

The dance you speak of is chanting Hare Krsna, but Prabhupada says we do not just chant Hare Krsna.....

Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don’t we do that also?

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krishna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Nishkincana. But we are not going to be nishkincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, “I do not take much interest in this.” Bahya. “It is external.” He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.

RCB)And that's the dance I'm speacking of, the practical one that will support the chanting just like Prabhupada says to do. Not just the chanting.......

Hari-sauri: I should make it, or Palika or...?

Prabhupada: Yes, Palika. [break] ...business, that requires so many other things. But if you take to agriculture you can do it immediately. Krishi-go-rakshya. That... We are going to do that. Krishi... This is beginning, family life, maintenance, body and soul together. This is the beginning. Business is there when there is excess. Krishi-go-rakshya-vanijyam [bg. 18.44]. First of all you take care of the cows and engage yourself in agricultural products. Then when there is excess production, you trade, get some money for other purposes. But you... Agriculture means you work for producing food. That is wanted. Why immediately go to trade? Trade is required when there is excess product. Everything is there. Krishi-go-rakshya. And the krishi you can produce independently. You simply work. You have got your hands and legs. You till the ground and throw some seed, and it will come. One kilo seeds, you’ll get one hundred mounds. Then, when the product is excess, you trade. Everything is there. If you produce food grain, you’ll eat nicely and you’ll be strong. You’ll be able to work more. Our point is take Krishna’s instruction. Everything will be perfect. Not that Krishna is advising immediately sarva-dharman parityajya [bg. 18.66]. For that stage you are not prepared. That I know. But in your present stage what you’ll do, that is perfect.

Giriraja: You mean I should leave everything and start a farm?

Prabhupada: Where is the question of leaving? Agriculture... You take to agriculture—that means you leave everything?

Giriraja: Well, what I have now.

Prabhupada: And what you have got? You are asking that “I require now food.” That means you have nothing. You have no food even. (aside:) Oh, you have brought it very quickly. Very nice. All right. [break] Live very comfortably, eat very comfortably and work. Chant Hare Krishna. Simply wasting time, the civilization... srama eva hi kevalam. Working hard and wasting valuable time of... Misguided. Andha yathandhair upaniya... When I think of their position... So every Vaishnava should be para-duhkha-duhkhi. So you like it?

Hare Krsna

RCB

Did I over loaded the system? Why would my post come up blank?

I'm going to take that as a sign theist, you are not worth the vani.

On line anyone can shrill over and over never accepting defeat(Yes, you will accuse me) what is the use with people like you? Nothing, glad not to know you. You are a.................and esily uncovered. If other members write I would answer or at least try for them.

And that also is the reason for personal challenge, eye contact! I would know you by looking into your eyes and having a conversation. And you can't squerm like a snake through words in front of a person and not be CAUGHT. On line impersonal and anonymous? Kiss royal butt, your exposed.

I walk the talk, meet me in person at the temple in Alachua or send your deputed representative, any of you, this is an open challenge to the world of devotees!!!! Bring books!

Shall we dance?

Hare Krsna

RCB

You didn't answer the question. Do you kill animals and eat them while considering yourself a kysatria and therefore entitled to do so?

 

 

Yes you are that same bozo that was here sometime back.

Did I over loaded the system? Why would my post come up blank?

What a nonsense post.

 

 

 

Aren't you the same guy who lives in Florida and thinks he is a ksatriya and thus has permission to kill and eat animals?

Why nonsense? challenge? sissy!

Aren't you the poster of 14k plus anonymous posts? No creadible personification of walk behind all that bluff talk? Who knows you the is himself creadible that can vowge for you? My challenge is about walk. Not sissy boy on line anonymous talk. If I can meet in person and in a couple of hours present more that a weeks worth of on line back and forth post? Why not? I'm not affaid to look any of you in eye. Why should I not seek that eye to eye contact, Mr anonymous all talk pudding. Look me in the eyes with book in hand like a man and mature devotee.

Remember you attacked first! The implications of your little sentance did not go un noticed by me

Hare Krsna

RCB

Can a child go from kingergarden to University over night? Yes, it is possible to be Krishna conscious in a second but for most it will take not only years but generations. Your foolish IMMATURE intelligence cannot understand the fact that maturity is needed FIRST!! TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU QUOTE instead of being a cut and paste parrot - Hare Krsna!

Is Sarva Gattah your real spititual name? Do you live in Alachua? Are you in a wheel chair? If yes, then you and I can talk in person with books and vani open. I will defeat you and am looking forward to the opportunity to put this attack in its place. And that would be the stool field.

If you can READ this post, then your mature enough to think of Krsna and do work for his pleasure in a prescribe varna. Any 8 yrs old and up can do.

If then, that is not you, then I stand corrected and will leave you to your buffoonery. If you do not fit in any catagory then, that means less than human. Good luck with your future up hill struggle. Just like a person that is a butcher will have a hell of a time remembering Krsna while he dismembers living entities bodies. But you go ahead and try the hardest way if you like.

Me? I'm like water, seeking out the path of least resistance and that would be 4 varnas and 4 asramas

Hare Krsna

RCB

varna-ashrama dharma

No!, not as Prabhupada says for us. Daivi - Varnasrama - Dharma = DVD.

Krsna is always first, then varna and asrama as Dharma or our only way of physical life and approach to God through the activities He gives in B-Gita. When it is said to stay in your possion it is not meant to be outside of the four varna and four asramas. This would not be good.

For the nay sayer, I'm not implying that KC is dependant on a material thing, but hay, take all the prescribe help you can get.

RCB(ACBSP)

Not that I have any exception with OP's post, it is just where is the reference in the folio? I mean to say what is the refence from. A letter? What letter? I would like to read it in it's entirety and context.

 

Could someone please give person, date, place?

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

Duh!!! I skipped over Thiest's intro and went right to the body of the post.

Sorry, nevermind! LOL.

Hare Krsna

RCB

Looks like yet another document which was kept hidden till 2007? Wonder what else will "suddenly appear"?

Thanks for posting it!

Not that I have any exception with OP's post, it is just where is the reference in the folio? I mean to say what is the refence from. A letter? What letter? I would like to read it in it's entirety and context.

Could someone please give person, date, place?

Hare Krsna

RCB

The Clairvoyant - Iron Maiden

 

 

Feel the sweat break on my brow

Is it me or is it the shadows that are dancing on the walls

Is this a dream or is it now

Is this a vision or normality I see before my eyes

 

I wonder why I wonder how

That it seems the powers getting stronger every day

I feel a strength an inner fire

But Im scared I wont be able to control it anymore

 

Theres a time to live and a time to die

When its time to meet the maker

Theres a time to live but isnt it strange

That as soon as youre born youre dying

 

Just by looking through your eyes

He could see the future penetrating

Right in through your mind

See the truth and see your lies

But for all his power couldnt foresee his own demise

 

Theres a time to live and a time to die

When its time to meet the maker

Theres a time to live but isnt it strange

That as soon as youre born youre dying...

... and reborn again? ?

Your a metal head? We are kindered spirts. I love it when devotees are real honest.

Hare Krsna

RCB

Armageddon for establishment of the era of rekindling Spirituality in mankind

 

(Source - http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/articles/id/spiritualresearch/spiritualscience/armageddon)

 

Hare Krsna Punjab

 

Are you really in Punjab? I love it there, stayed on both sides, Lahore, Taxila, Amritsar. Great place!

 

And I like the picture. It is unfortunate, but what can you do? Demi-gods/Krsna are in control. I agree with the sumation from left to right. The daivi-varnasrama-dharma/Vedic/Aryan culture of Bhagavad-Gita will grow from devotee seeds that don't sucumb, out of the rubble of a destroyed planet.

 

Poeticly divine.

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can a child go from kingergarden to University over night? Yes, it is possible to be Krishna conscious in a second but for most it will take not only years but generations. Your foolish IMMATURE intelligence cannot understand the fact that maturity is needed FIRST!! TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU QUOTE instead of being a cut and paste parrot - Hare Krsna!

Poor little boy, I walk my talk. And am realized in what I post! You took an attempt at humility as a low thing, sorry for you. I was more mature walking in the door of ISKCON than most are after decades. I have not been stifled by others neglect.

Done with you, waste of time! Sudra is, as sudra speaks.

Looking for DVD like mindedness, anyone out there?

Hare Krsna

RCB

dear devotees , separatist, perception only not the truth , the truth is ever complete, vedanta , what is this , if not whole , language is a vibration , phonetic kinetic faster than you , words form on your tongue before you know ,when you are conditioned , the bell rings without you knowing , but the sound you make is heard by all , including you , so listen hear the truth of you , if you live in your mind , you speak in your head as thought, instead of off your tongue , krishna dances on your tongue infinitesimal,when you express your love for god , it does show , hari hari , all peoples all creeds , all an expresion of conciousness , within natures dance , do not reject or accept take what is use full, verse is for the curse until the curse is gone , so what of verse if well , the verse speaks this best as rass lila , eternal relationship, cosmic bliss our eternal form , spoke here as love to all , no divisions , or maths to perform , just 9 to one as skin to breath morthic monkey , with rahda and krishna in side jai all atma jiva rahda krishna sing jai prabhupada

Yes, for you pure devotees this is good!

But I'm a conditioned, motivated mutt, my Guru has given me a job and I exicute daily, as I can. So most are like this, then do not cheat, be honest. DVD is for you. This is Srila Prabhupada, you follow as you like, but it is not all one and the same.

Variation is self evident. Also in the spiritual world!

Hare Krsna

RCB

No need to be a Guru. Just let the people whom you associate with know the importance of chanting Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. There`s no other way, no other way says Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in this age of Kaliyuga.

 

Note: However, don`t bother telling this to the followers of Yogananda Paramahamsa. For them, it`s to each his own.

It was either in the Autobiography of a Yogi or Be Here Now, that it says that bhakti yoga was the top most. I stopped reading the book and began looking for bhakti yoga. A step on my journey.

Hare Krsna

RCB

Firstly, you don't even know me, so why the less intelligent statement??secondly I first joined ISKCON at 17 years of age and in those days out duty was to distrbute books and we also had our classes, far more stricter then than now

 

Everone had to attend Bhagavatam class

 

nector of Devotion class at 6.15pm

 

Bhagavad Gita class from 7.30 to 9pm

 

ISKCON had potency back then that is not there today

 

I STAND BY MY COMMENT

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

The fact is, we are still pioneers and book distribution is more important than the material designations of Varna or Asrama

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

meaning that will naturally develop later as ISKCON matures AND STOPS BEING IMMATURE

 

Srila Prabhupada - "First, distribute my books like the allies dropped bombs on Dresden Germany in WW2 and the rest will follow"

Well I do know that you have said a thing, that much I know. And it is as immature as ISKCON 35 yrs later having the same immature disposition and retric about DVD. Even that Srila Prabhupada clearly says a thing, you and yours say different. Prabhupada says nothing about later when mature to implement or did I miss somethng? No I did not! This is an example of poison vani. Your picking and choosing according to you mind.

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

(WAIT! did Prabhupada say later at a time of greater maturity? NO!)

Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform...

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.

(Are all Srila Prabhupada's disciples brahmana? NO!)

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

(Ah! there the rub, Prabhupada is not stupid, He knows they are fallen and need to now arrange DVD inside ISKCON NOW!)

Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You’ll be ha...

(You see? you remain in you natural position. Not every one brahman)

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

(Just see the resistents of Hari-sauri, this is not inocent, but an atempt to undermine the instruction. You need to read the hole conversation intact.)

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.(This not the first time these talks take place, why is Satsvarupa so confused?)

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krishna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krishna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.(Here it is again, they are fallen, must have DVD now. So it was then, as it is now!)

ISKCON(greater devotee community included) will NEVER by choice, implement a division of action based on 4 varnas and 4 asramas communally. All just new bhakta's still lost in immature student life, cheating and falling. But claiming Guru leadership and qalities, can't have it both ways!!!!

Hare Krsna

RCB

The fact is, we are still pioneers and book distribution is more important than the material designations of Varna or Asrama

Interesting how you never read those books you gave out. Page after page and Srila Prabhupada will disagree with you.

Jagadisa: Is it the duty of the vaisyas to cultivate the fields or...?

Prabhupada: Actually it is the duty of the vaisyas, but the sudras can help everyone, the helpers. The sudras will help the brahmanas, the kshatriyas, as well as the vaisyas. Those who have no brain—simply they can carry out order—they are sudras. And those who have got brain, they can act as brahmana, kshatriya, or vaisya. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying sastras, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is brahmana. They haven’t got to work as kshatriya, as vaisya. They are simply intellectuals. This is brahmana, with good character.

Devotee (1): Distributing books?

Prabhupada: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaisya, trade. It is a trade. Krishi-go-rakshya-vanijyam [bg. 18.44]. Krishi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaisya. So vaisya does not require any university degree or any... Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brahmana should be very highly learned scholar. So the brahmanas will give advice to the kshatriya how to rule, and the kshatriya will levy tax, and vaisyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.(END)

This is another problem/madness, that no one knows how to divide, even Prabhupada says how! Nothing stops, everything continues honestly with no cheating like befor. Or why in hell does Srila Prabhupada say to now divide? Prabhupada says because of cheating amoung the members of ISKCON.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya’s chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, kshatriyas. There must be regular education.(END)

Unfortunately you sound like another one just making it up as you go, you can see clearly Prabhupada has different ideas than yours

Hare Krsna

RCB

I don't know much about american convention;).

 

Years ago Mark I approached an Iskcon farm (almost ten years ago) to see if it was possible to move in that direction and lifestyle. There was one very nice devotee there, so I asked him about varna-ashrama lifestyle, and how would I fit into it. Becuase at that stage I knew my disposition was dairy hand and cleaning etc. I had worked milking cows previously and relished the work.

 

From the response I received, it was obvious that there was no varna-ashram system in place. And far from being actualized.

 

You are so right you know, that we each need to be aware of our station and skill. This is a great key to harmony. I can see Srila Prabhupada's vision in this regard. Even the concepts of kali puja etc that you quoted in another thread at audarya. He was broad in vision hey?

 

There is one farm community being established some hours away from here. Funds are low and they are offering some accomodation services to raise money. They seem to be open to people coming and investigating the life-style and learning. With a theme of un-cluttered living to focus on the main thing. Definately a long term vision...

 

One of the main people there, is a very nice brahmana and extremely kind. An exceptional person actually. Maybe Mark, that is where the secret to success lies in community? With Krsna conscious brahmanas giving guidance. Catering for all needs and dispositions in their council. Like Srila Prabhupada did (as far as I know).

Hare Krsna Bija prabhu

I am Caturbahu das(RCB), not Mark, my bestest friend in the whole world that I met here on line at this fourm DVD trolling 2 yrs ago.

Yes, your right about any and all ISKCON related prejects, not DVD centered, that includes everything in India too. Any outside devotee co-op's that would be DVD are going to be very pioneering in mood, to say the least. No money, lots of cross varna action, mostly sudra. Because the majority are sudra and the farm life is very labor intensive by nature.

I live in Alachua and have talked to mostly every one I can corral and no one is interested as Srila Prabhupada explains it. Hell the big smelly cheese Tamohara will not even sit with me and books for a pow-wow. I have know this person sense the deities were instaled here in 74'! Typical! They are just comfortable with pretents and not substance. Soon though they will have their collective hands full with the symptoms of a great depression far beyond what the last one was. Why? because 80% of the population lived on mostly food sufficient farms back in the 30's. Now it is 85% in the cities and the rest, 15% on factory type industrial farms, very dependant on heavy metal machines run by the black blood of the earth. With cemical coctails masqueradeing as fertilizer. Very little food is being produce individually for personal consumption, big mistake. On the devotees part too!

Yeah, there's hell to pay even for the devotees that rejected this beutifull solution to the continous fall down of the brahmanas that the movement was supposted to be contructed with. From 74' on it was to be a DVD movement, changed to the laws of 8(4 varnas + 4 asramas)

You want leadership? You have to have a ksatriya. Prabhupada is the consumate brahman. The rest of DVD will fall into place with that common ground.....SB. 1.17.45

TRANSLATION

Maharaja Parikshit, the son of Abhimanyu, is so experienced that by dint of his expert administration and patronage, it has been possible for you to perform a sacrifice such as this.

PURPORT

The brahmanas and the sannyasis are expert in the spiritual advancement of society, whereas the kshatriyas or the administrators are expert in the material peace and prosperity of human society. Both of them are the pillars of all happiness, and therefore they are meant for full cooperation for common welfare. Maharaja Parikshit was experienced enough to drive away Kali from his field of activities and thereby make the state receptive to spiritual enlightenment. If the common people are not receptive, it is very difficult to impress upon them the necessity of spiritual enlightenment. Austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness, the basic principles of religion, prepare the ground for the reception of advancement in spiritual knowledge, and Maharaja Parikshit made this favorable condition possible. Thus the rishis of Naimisharanya were able to perform the sacrifices for a thousand years. In other words, without state support, no doctrines of philosophy or religious principles can progressively advance. There should be complete cooperation between the brahmanas and the kshatriyas for this common good. Even up to Maharaja Asoka, the same spirit was prevailing. Lord Buddha was sufficiently supported by King Asoka, and thus his particular cult of knowledge was spread all over the world.

SB. 2.5.37

TRANSLATION

The brahmanas represent His mouth, the kshatriyas His arms, the vaisyas His thighs, and the sudras are born of His legs.

PURPORT

All living beings are stated to be the parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, and how they are so is explained in this verse. The four divisions of human society, namely the intelligent class (the brahmanas), the administrative class (the kshatriyas), the mercantile class (the vaisyas), and the laborer class (the sudras), are all in different parts of the body of the Lord. As such, no one is different from the Lord. The mouth of the body and the legs of the body are nondifferent constitutionally, but the mouth or the head of the body is qualitatively more important than the legs. At the same time, the mouth, the legs, the arms and the thighs are all component parts of the body. These limbs of the body of the Lord are meant to serve the complete whole. The mouth is meant for speaking and eating, the arms are meant for the protection of the body, the legs are meant for carrying the body, and the waist of the body is meant for maintaining the body. The intelligent class in society, therefore, must speak on behalf of the body, as well as accept foodstuff to satisfy the hunger of the body. The hunger of the Lord is to accept the fruits of sacrifice. The brahmanas, or the intelligent class, must be very expert in performing such sacrifices, and the subordinate classes must join in such sacrifices. To speak for the Supreme Lord means to glorify the Lord by means of propagating the knowledge of the Lord as it is, broadcasting the factual nature of the Lord and the factual position of all other parts of the whole body. The brahmanas, therefore, are required to know the Vedas, or the ultimate source of knowledge. Veda means knowledge, and anta means the end of it. According to Bhagavad-gita, the Lord is the source of everything (aham sarvasya prabhavah), and thus the end of all knowledge (Vedanta) is to know the Lord, to know our relationship with Him and to act according to that relationship only. The parts of the body are related to the body; similarly, the living being must know his relationship with the Lord. The human life is especially meant for this purpose, namely to know the factual relationship of every living being with the Supreme Lord. Without knowing this relationship, the human life is spoiled. The intelligent class of men, the brahmanas, are therefore especially responsible for broadcasting this knowledge of our relationship with the Lord and leading the general mass of people to the right path. The administrative class is meant for protecting the living beings so that they can serve this purpose; the mercantile class is meant for producing food grains and distributing them to the complete human society so that the whole population is given a chance to live comfortably and discharge the duties of human life. The mercantile class is also required to give protection to the cows in order to get sufficient milk and milk products, which alone can give the proper health and intelligence to maintain a civilization perfectly meant for knowledge of the ultimate truth. And the laborer class, who are neither intelligent nor powerful, can help by physical services to the other higher classes and thus be benefited by their cooperation. Therefore the universe is a complete unit in relationship with the Lord, and without this relationship with the Lord the whole human society is disturbed and is without any peace and prosperity. This is confirmed in the Vedas: brahmano ’sya mukham asid, bahu rajanyah kritah.

Hare Krsna

RCB

Are you suggesting Bhaktatraveller that there will only be harmony in this world when a world-wide varna-ashrama system is in place?

 

If that is the case, how will it be implemented? And will the process of implementation (for such a diverse world) be a harmonious affair? I am a bit cautious when people consider their way the only way.

 

Or was Srila Prabhupada hoping to have it implemented in smaller scale farm communities, so that the bigger world could see its good effect, and then follow suite? For many years I aspired to live in such a place, but unfortunately there was no such place and the places that be were super-selective.

 

I am of the opinion that a functioning varna-ashrama farm living Krsna consciousness well, would be nice to see (and to live within). And very beneficial for the surrounding communities and area. But I also feel an individual heart felt life full of gratitude inspires others? Maybe times have changed in the world, or as you suggest kali has set in (is a one world system possible - is that what the rishis envisioned for today)?

 

These days Bhakta I am not sure I desire to follow the way that considers the world to be stuffed with a poor future (degrading kali). If that is what we think, that may well be what we get! I would rather live with hope for the future... and live well... with a practical positive outlook to life... and discover the gift of consciousness and its potential.

 

What do you think. (please do not use forceful or condemning speech or I will not be covinced)

 

Some thoughts from your heart Mark, backed with Prabhupada quotes would be appreciated.

Hare Krsna All!

I'm just trolling for like minded devotees of DVD.

The start is to know your own varna, always start at the begining and that is yourself. Know your varna, know your asrama.

Implementation is the cooperation amoung varnas and asramas. Be honest not to take asrama or varana, what is not yours. Srila Prabhupada said to begin in the pressent day(74') city and farm temples. In other words it is about individuals cooperation, not just farms, in the city temples too.

At this point I think only nessesity will be the mother of surender and cooperation. I do not fore see anything more than simple talk coming out of this post.

Living together has now been lost by a planed contrivence from your pressent day leadership. Harivilas once told me that there will be no more open asramas in ISKCON that they(GBC) were creating a karmi church like environment on purpose. Because to have a spirirtual commune was to hard for the cheaters to control. Divide and conquer don't you know?

I think the proverbial rug has to be pulled out from underneath every devotee for any real implimentation by division of work and life style to take place amoung them. Just like Americans will have to have guns in there faces held by the very army their tax dollars support before they will get it that all freedom is gone in these here dis-united states and hell is just around the corner!

Do you people know that we are 2 states away from a Constitusional Convention? That is to rewrite the constitution of the united states! Here comes the stinky stuff! LOL.

Hare Krsna

RCB

Hare Krsna

Here's harmony,,,

PURPORT

To effect the perfection of human life there is cooperation between men and demigods, sages, denizens of the Pitriloka, devotees of the Lord and the scientific system of varna and asrama orders of life. The distinction between human life and animal life therefore begins with the scientific system of varna and asrama, guided by the experience of the sages in relation with the demigods, gradually rising to the summit of reestablishing our eternal relation with the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna. When God-made varnasrama-dharma, which is strictly meant for developing animal consciousness into human consciousness and human consciousness into godly consciousness, is broken by advancement of foolishness, the whole system of peaceful and progressive life is at once disturbed. In the age of Kali, the first attack of the venomous snake strikes against the God-made varnasrama-dharma, and thus a person properly qualified as a brahmana is called a sudra, and a sudra by qualification is passing as a brahmana, all on a false birthright claim. To become a brahmana by a birthright claim is not at all bona fide, although it may be a fulfillment of one of the conditions. But the real qualification of a brahmana is to control the mind and the senses, and to cultivate tolerance, simplicity, cleanliness, knowledge, truthfulness, devotion and faith in the Vedic wisdom. In the present age, consideration of the necessary qualification is being neglected, and the false birthright claim is being supported even by a popular, sophisticated poet, the author of Rama-carita-manasa.

This is all due to the influence of the age of Kali. Thus mother earth, represented as a cow, was lamenting the regrettable condition.

5 pages of discussion here on What Lord Rama eat?

If any of you have spared 5 minutes and chanted Hare Rama it would be a fruitful rather than sparing your time in posting in 5 pages,I have NOT read any of the messages posted here and feel that its not worth reading what is written here.

And you say you didn't read any message? Then why post!

RCB

5 pages of discussion here on What Lord Rama eat?

If any of you have spared 5 minutes and chanted Hare Rama it would be a fruitful rather than sparing your time in posting in 5 pages,I have NOT read any of the messages posted here and feel that its not worth reading what is written here.

Actually most of what is posted by devotees on line is irrelivent to some degree or another. Even with in the context of progresive spiritual life. If our actions were anilized moment by moment we woud see a great deal of the mundain/profane. Just look at the way this thread goes on and on with no common ground/authority as to come to a conclution.

Did Rama eat or not? For me, if Srila rabhupada says one way or another. then that is that. That part of the discusion ends. He doesn't though say about Rama eating meat. It is nice to have a father/guru like Prabhupada.

Which brings us to you, why did you post?

I'm looking for devotees of Srila Prabhupada's DVD movement, and you?

Hare Krsna

RCB

I have to respectfully disagree with this as lacking in full information from our Guru. Srila Prabhupada does say a different thing in this conversation and throughout His books. In to many places.

 

Hridayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

 

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

 

Hridayananda: What he kills.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

 

Hridayananda: But never the cow.

 

Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition.(END)

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

Here's another.....

SB. 6.4.9

TRANSLATION

By nature’s arrangement, fruits and flowers are considered the food of insects and birds; grass and other legless living entities are meant to be the food of four-legged animals like cows and buffalo; animals that cannot use their front legs as hands are meant to be the food of animals like tigers, which have claws; and four-legged animals like deer and goats, as well as food grains, are meant to be the food of human beings.

PURPORT

By nature’s law, or the arrangement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one kind of living entity is eatable by other living entities. As mentioned herein, dvi-padam ca catush-padah: the four-legged animals (catush-padah), as well as food grains, are eatables for human beings (dvi-padam). These four-legged animals are those such as deer and goats, not cows, which are meant to be protected. Generally the men of the higher classes of society—the brahmanas, kshatriyas and vaisyas—do not eat meat. Sometimes kshatriyas go to the forest to kill animals like deer because they have to learn the art of killing, and sometimes they eat the animals also. Sudra's, too, eat animals such as goats. Cows, however, are never meant to be killed or eaten by human beings. In every sastra, cow killing is vehemently condemned. Indeed, one who kills a cow must suffer for as many years as there are hairs on the body of a cow. Manu-samhita says, pravrittir esha bhutanam nivrittis tu maha-phala: we have many tendencies in this material world, but in human life one is meant to learn how to curb those tendencies. Those who desire to eat meat may satisfy the demands of their tongues by eating lower animals, but they should never kill cows, who are actually accepted as the mothers of human society because they supply milk. The sastra especially recommends, krishi-go-rakshya: the vaisya section of humanity should arrange for the food of the entire society through agricultural activities and should give full protection to the cows, which are the most useful animals because they supply milk to human society.(END)

Hare Krsna

RCB

Kings generally hunted under certain circumstances and offered the animals' flesh into the sacrificial fire. This was not for the purpose of eating.

I have to respectfully disagree with this as lacking in full information from our Guru. Srila Prabhupada does say a different thing in this conversation and throughout His books. In to many places.

Hridayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hridayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

Hridayananda: But never the cow.

Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition.(END)

Hare Krsna

RCB

{IE: ?} = Bhaktajan's comment without Bhaktajan's commentary lest Bhaktajan be 'DELETED':

..........................................................

1]

Originally Posted by sanatan

"surrendering" to Krsna =

 

-new set of religious practices, more complex than those abandoned. {IE: ?}

 

-discard past for a new scriptures wildly improbable and unscientific than former belief.

{IE: ?}

 

-adopt new personal identity, new style of dress for religious functions.

{IE: ?}

 

-agree to follow a complex methodology of life-governing rules, most of these being isolation from one's cultural milieu.

{IE: ?}

 

-submit oneself to the authority of leaders who may be morally-bankrupt shams with perks and comforts of a U.S. Senator, and hundreds followers, brainwashed that can cast one into hell for aeons.

(hey, I thought we left that stuff behind with Christianity)

{IE: ?}

 

With all due repects to Srila Prabhupada, IMO there's plenty to worry about.

{IE: ?}

 

{Have you neglected to read your newspapers lately?

Are the prisons filled with ISKCON Vegetarian Brainwashers?

With all due respect . . . Your intellectual capacity is a non-issue here.}

 

2]

 

{So tactfully said. Regarding:

 

"Krishna says declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish."

 

I am of the well regarded opinion by bonefide Hare Krishna diasporas world-wide:

 

 

"Personally I don't give *&^% what the Christians think of me and the same goes for the Christ hating so-called Hare Krishna's I've met."}

Hare Krsna Bk Jan

What is this supposed to mean? I saw your original and thought Theist's responce was appropriate. Now you post this and I'm as confused as can be as to what the hell your on about.

I do not post here often and mostly I troll for DVD devotees. Found one here 2 yrs ago and he is now my best, closest and dearest friend. Can always use more like him. I have only met one other devotee that even comes close to Bk Mark's level of communication with me and that would be Rupanuga(Krsna takes away to give favor, well come to my world!).

Sorry for jumping at first hint Begger, 36 yrs of DVD rejection from all devotee quarters gets to be old. Like being beaten evey time you preach in the market place, quasi Haridas Thakur effect from exclusivly preaching to devotee about DVD from my begining in the movement.

Puranjan one time called me Varnasrama Caturbahu, I loved it! Yeah I was a movement of one, now there is another, Bk Mark. Looking for more if your out there.

Hare Krsna

RCB

Then let me ask you: Have you ever danced with the

devil in the pale moonlight?

YES, I have! More times than I would like to remember. I was bone a demon don't ya know, what do you expect? So no meet? So your looking to 'dance'? Trust me son that 'dance' is rock and roll, you do not want to go there!

Just games of children? At least Bij was man enough to respond with fore thought. You havent the guts to speak with books in hand? Sudra it is, best not to talk in public then.

RCB

PS. Bija, not that we should forget the highest goal for a lower status. The point is to get real and honest, to admit we are not free from the material modes of nature. We are aspiring to the highest position, not yet there.

Prabhupada attempted to make brahmans in the begining of the movement. But they fell down mostly. This was observed by Prabhupada and rectified through the introdction of thess Davi-Varnasrama-Dharma conclusions in 74. That no one followed is harbinger of the furture/continuous deterioration of ISKCON. But I did, took the taining from Prabhupada. Did Guru acknowledge varna as ksatriya, YES!

Not to lose the idea of uttama adhikari, but be here now and do the honest thing. And pure devotees will follow DVD even after becoming fully self realized, as example.

Sudras are not to preach or lead!...

Satsvarupa: In order to evidence this, should we consider that we have to act as kshatriyas or shall we just preach and try to get others...

Prabhupada: No... Kshatriyas, I have already explained who is brahmana and kshatriya according to guna-karma-vibhagasah, as you work, as you are fit for. If you are fit to become brahmana, become brahmana. If you are fit to become kshatriya, become kshatriya. If you are fit to become sudra, do it. Three... Then... And a man who cannot become fit for any other purpose, he is sudra. That’s all. “Help. Help the brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya and take your food and little pocket expense. That’s all.” Little pocket expenditure. But in our society we don’t require, but even if it is required we can give.

Brahmananda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members...

Prabhupada: Yes, just to show people how to... The first-class men, brahmana, second-class, kshatriya, third-class, vaisya, fourth-class...

Satsvarupa: But all in our society are Vaishnavas.

Prabhupada: That is our real position. This is for management.

Nityananda: How many kshatriyas can I have on this farm? How many kshatriyas can we have on one farm?

Prabhupada: I told. Find out who is going to be kshatriya. Then... Take your time (?).

Nityananda: You can have more than one?

Prabhupada: No, no. (Why not??) There is no rule. As according to the work, if people are interested to work as vaisya, let them become vaisya. If he is intelligent, if he wants to work as brahmana, let him work as brahmana. Let him work as kshatriya. And the fourth-class, let him work as sudra. So the management should see that nobody is unemployed or not engaged, men, women. Woman can take care of the milk products or spining (spinning). And sudras can be engaged for working as weaver, as a blacksmith, a goldsmith. There are so many things.

Jagadisa: Cobbler?

Prabhupada: Cobbler is less than sudra. Yes. Cobbler means when the cows die, the cobbler may take it. If he wants, he can eat the flesh, and he can utilize the bone, hoofs. He can prepare... He gets the skin without any price. So he can make shoes and he’ll make some profit. And because he is cobbler, he can be allowed to eat meat, fifth-class... Not that “Professor such-and-such,” and eating meat. This is the degradation of society. He is doing the work of a brahmana—teacher means brahmana—and eating meat—Oh, horrible! Syamasundara? So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I’ll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole... Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change. Then the whole world... And it is the duty because they are kept in darkness and ignorance, then the human life is being spoiled. These rascals, because they do not know how to live... Andha yathandhair... They are blind, and they are leading... Others are blind, and they are leading and they, all of them, going to ditch. So it is the duty. There is... Caitanya has explained, para-upakara. Save them. If it is not possible to save everyone, as many as possible... This is human life. This is Krishna consciousness, to save others who are in the darkness. It is not a profession: “Now, Krishna consciousness is my profession. I’m getting very easily food and shelter.” Just like the Indians, they are doing, a profession, say another means of livelihood. Not like that. It is for para-upakara, actually benefiting the others. That is Krishna consciousness. Then Krishna will be very much pleased: “Oh, he is trying.” ’Cause Krishna personally comes for doing this benefit to the people, and if you do, then how much Krishna will be pleased. Then? Just like I am traveling in my centers, and if I see that my students, my men are doing very nice, everything is going nice, how much pleased I will be, that I’ll save my labors and now write books for the rest of my time. Similarly, if Krishna sees that you are, on behalf of Krishna, you are trying to save these rascals, then He’ll be very (indistinct) with you. They are rascals. The leaders are rascals and the followers are rascals and they’re all going to hell. Nature’s law is very strict. Daivi hy esha gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [bg. 7.14]. You cannot avoid it. Nature is all-powerful. Krishna has given: “You work in this way.” She’ll work. She’ll work. She’ll punish. As soon as there is little discrepancy—you have eaten, eaten more than is necessary—indigestion. “Indigestion, starve.” This is nature’s law. Nature will act. But you have to (indistinct) them with knowledge that “You don’t do this. Otherwise you will be under the control of nature life after life. Simply miseries.” Para-duhkha-duhkhi. Vaishnava’s qualification is para-duhkha-duhkhi. He is unhappy by seeing others’ distress. This is Vaishnava. (end)

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.

Hari-sauri: So we’d have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they’re falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krishna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?

Hari-sauri:

sve sve karmany abhiratah

samsiddhim labhate narah

sva-karma-niratah siddhim

yatha vindati tac chrinu

“By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.”

Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. He can... As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.

Hari-sauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.

Prabhupada: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He’s also not following them. (laughs)

Hari-sauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have... Every temple president can...

Prabhupada: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.

Satsvarupa: If there’s no tree?

Prabhupada: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.

Satsvarupa: Small.

Prabhupada: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken—“Oh, it is very big.”

Hari-sauri: I don’t follow the analogy.

Satsvarupa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.

Hari-sauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Mayapura now we have a situation...

Prabhupada: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.

Hari-sauri: So in Mayapura here now we have that situation, that so many...

Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, kshatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He’ll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That’s good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varnasramacaravata purushena parah puman vishnur aradhyate. Vishnu, Lord Vishnu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four asramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect kshatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.

Satsvarupa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brahmana...

Prabhupada: Brahmanas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brahmanas are also available, sudras are also available. Why sudra should be artificially become a brahmana?(END)