bhaktatraveler

So is the point of view of you two Bhaktas that the above quote is no longer valid or is it possible you have made a mis-calculation. Hopefully you remain open to the possibility of being wrong.

Consider by definition that eating meat as Srila Prabhupada has said is under regulation and not illicit. He has given the regulation himself. He gave an example of a pure devotee. Just like sex life in marrage for children is still concidered as brahmancarya. Everywhere these things are in the Bhagavatam.

I see the quote, but you have not used what was accually said and shown my flaw of interpitation on the subject. I have posted repeatedly. And you reply with nothing that addresses DVD in ISKCON and how initiations would take place with new standards. I showed a hidden in plain site change that was not implimemted on purpose by the same leaders that finally stole the movement from Srila Prabhupada after samadhi. And you are a broken record of brainwashing. Show direct context to DVD like I have done. Point out in the coversations were I have missed the mark. Or from anything Prabhupada has said on the subject of initiations in His DVD movement.

Put up. That quote is out of context because there is no mention of DVD in it.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Kids are kids. Hormonal changes are natural at that age. Adults are supposed to be adults and not encourage or condemn the kids in situations like this. Parents should be parents and teach their kids that they need to be extra careful at temple functions etc. but there is no need to blow this up into another cause for crusade. Cut the drama.

 

Reminds me of hearing some matajis at MVT complaining about the "kulis" wearing short pants. Imagine that, short pants in 95 degree weather. These young people have often grown up with dysfunctional neglectful parents who were at least into a false cult of Krsna consciousness as much as they were sadhana bhakti. They are growing up in society which is even more hedonistic then the one I grew up in. Just consider that they were there for Gaura Purnima at all and how rare that is. Where were their peers and what were they doing?

 

It is not by repression that we advance. It is by experiencing a higher taste.

I just deleted the whole post I wrote. I'll make it simple so even you can understand.

Please give quotes from Srila Prabhupada that supports this hippie hogwash in you post. If you can then I will offer an apology calling it 'Hippie Hogwash' if you can't, then I am do one.

'Through out the West' is the motto. The healing will happen then.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Martyrdom: an essential component of the messiah complex.

We better get those girls from 9-19 into Burkhas as quickly as possible. Where's the Taliban when we need them?

The complant of rejected vows is not being connected to vedic or karmi dress. It is behavior between the sexes. Young and old, male and female.

You brought this subject up that includes following the restrictions on illicit sex. Why would you now poke fun at a serious concern that is determental to strict adherance of no illicit sex?

SB 6.1.21

TRANSLATION

In the city known as Kanyakubja there was a brahmana named Ajamila who married a prostitute maidservant and lost all his brahminical qualities because of the association of that low-class woman.

PURPORT

The fault of illicit connection with women is that it makes one lose all brahminical qualities. In India there is still a class of servants, called sudras, whose maidservant wives are called sudranis. Sometimes people who are very lusty establish relationships with such maidservants and sweeping women, since in the higher statuses of society they cannot indulge in the habit of woman hunting, which is strictly prohibited by social convention. Ajamila, a qualified brahmana youth, lost all his brahminical qualities because of his association with a prostitute, but he was ultimately saved because he had begun the process of bhakti-yoga. Therefore in the previous verse, Sukadeva Gosvami spoke of the person who has only once surrendered himself at the lotus feet of the Lord (manah krishna-padaravindayoh) or has just begun the bhakti-yoga process. Bhakti-yoga begins with sravanam kirtanam vishnoh [sB 7.5.23], hearing and chanting of Lord Vishnu’s names, as in the maha-mantra—Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Chanting is the beginning of bhakti-yoga.

SB 6.1.22

TRANSLATION

This fallen brahmana, Ajamila, gave trouble to others by arresting them, by cheating them in gambling or by directly plundering them. This was the way he earned his livelihood and maintained his wife and children.

PURPORT

This verse indicates how degraded one becomes simply by indulging in illicit sex with a prostitute. Illicit sex is not possible with a chaste or aristocratic woman, but only with unchaste sudras. The more society allows prostitution and illicit sex, the more impetus it gives to cheaters, thieves, plunderers, drunkards and gamblers. Therefore we first advise all the disciples in our Krishna consciousness movement to avoid illicit sex, which is the beginning of all abominable life and which is followed by meat-eating, gambling and intoxication, one after another. Of course, restraint is very difficult, but it is quite possible if one fully surrenders to Krishna, since all these abominable habits gradually become distasteful for a Krishna conscious person. If illicit sex is allowed to increase in a society, however, the entire society will be condemned, for it will be full of rogues, thieves, cheaters and so forth.

SB 1.16.22

We know it from Srimad Bhagwatam that Ajamil an innocent son of a Brahmin was passing the road and he saw a Sudra pair sexually embraced. This attracted the boy, and later on the boy became a victim of all debaucheries in the later days of his life. From a pure Brahmin he fell down to the position of a wretched urchin and it was all due to the bad association. There was one victim like Ajamil in those days gone by but in this age of Kali the poor innocent body and students are daily victims of the cinema shows which attract men only for the matter of sex induldence. The so called administrators are all untrained in the affairs of a Kashatriya. The Kastriyas are meant for administration as the Brahmins are meant for knowledge and guidance. The word kshatriyabandhu means the so called administrators or persons promoted to the post of the administrator without prpper training by culture and tradition Now a days they are promoted to such exhalted posts by the votes of people who are themselves fallen in the rules and regulations of life. How they can select a proper man who are themselves fallen in the standard of life. Therefore, by the influence of the age of Kali everywhere politically, socially or religiously everything is topsyturvied and therefore for the sane man they are all regretable factors looking forward to the general welfare of the human society.

Hare krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

How to keep the vow of no illicit sex life.

SB. 4.27.8

TRANSLATION

After this, King Puranjana, King of the Pancala country, in order to increase the descendants of his paternal family, married his sons with qualified wives and married his daughters with qualified husbands.

PURPORT

According to the Vedic system, everyone should marry. One has to accept a wife because a wife will produce children, and the children in their turn will offer foodstuffs and funeral ceremonies so that the forefathers, wherever they may live, will be made happy. The offering of oblations in the name of Lord Vishnu is called pindodaka, and it is necessary that the descendants of a family offer pinda to the forefathers.

Not only was Puranjana, the King of Pancala, satisfied in his own sex life, but he arranged for the sex life of his 1,100 sons and 110 daughters. In this way one can elevate an aristocratic family to the platform of a dynasty. It is significant in this verse that Puranjana got both sons and daughters married. It is the duty of a father and mother to arrange for the marriage of their sons and daughters. That is the obligation in Vedic society. Sons and daughters should not be allowed freedom to intermingle with the opposite sex unless they are married. This Vedic social organization is very good in that it stops the promulgation of illicit sex life, or varna-sankara, which appears under different names in this present day. Unfortunately in this age although the father and mother are anxious to get their children married, the children refuse to get married by the arrangement of the parents. Consequently, the number of varna-sankara has increased throughout the world under different names.

SB 3.21.27

TRANSLATION

He has a grown-up daughter whose eyes are black. She is ready for marriage, and she has good character and all good qualities. She is also searching for a good husband. My dear sir, her parents will come to see you, who are exactly suitable for her, just to deliver their daughter as your wife.

PURPORT

The selection of a good husband for a good girl was always entrusted to the parents. Here it is clearly stated that Manu and his wife were coming to see Kardama Muni to offer their daughter because the daughter was well qualified and the parents were searching out a similarly qualified man. This is the duty of parents. Girls are never thrown into the public street to search out their husband, for when girls are grown up and are searching after a boy, they forget to consider whether the boy they select is actually suitable for them. Out of the urge of sex desire, a girl may accept anyone, but if the husband is chosen by the parents, they can consider who is to be selected and who is not. According to the Vedic system, therefore, the girl is given over to a suitable boy by the parents; she is never allowed to select her own husband independently.

SB 3.33.16

Similarly, Devahuti was the daughter of a great king, Svayambhuva Manu, and was qualified and beautiful, but she was completely dependent on the protection of her husband. According to Manu, women, the fair sex, should not have independence at any stage of life. In childhood a woman must be under the protection of the parents, in youth she must be under the protection of the husband, and in old age she must be under the protection of the grown children. Devahuti demonstrated all these statements of the Manu-samhita in her life: as a child she was dependent on her father, later she was dependent on her husband, in spite of her opulence, and she was later on dependent on her son, Kapiladeva.

Wedding Ceremony and Lecture, Boston 5/6/69

This evening we are going to hold a marriage ceremony for three couples of our students. The Krishna consciousness movement is to understand to always bear in mind or always be in consciousness that we are eternally related with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So the process is to utilize this human form of life for elevating oneself to the highest perfectional stage. There is evolution of life from lowest animal in the water and up to the highest platform or highest planetary life, where the duration of life is many, many millions of years. The highest planetary system is called Brahmaloka, or where the first created being, Brahma, lives. The duration of Brahma’s life is explained in the Bhagavad-gita that forty-three hundred thousands of years multiplied by one thousand makes one twelve hours of that Brahmaloka. Just like there is distinction of the duration of life between the microbes and the human being, similarly, there are different grades of different duration of life in different stage of planetary system. So the life is evolving. Now after evolutionary process from the lower animals, from the aquatics to plant life, vegetable life, then microbes, reptiles, birds, beasts, then we come to the human form of life, this civilized form of life. Now here it is just like crossing. Where we should go next life? Whether I shall promote myself to the higher planetary system or into the spiritual sky, Vaikunthaloka, or I shall go down again in the evolutionary process of lower animals? That is to be decided. So if we want to go to the higher planetary system, we can go there. If we want to stay here, we can do that. If we want to go down, that we can do. And if we want to go back to Godhead, that also we can do. So this facility is given in this human form of life. Now it is our choice, where shall I go? Shall I go down to hell, or shall I go up to heaven, or I shall go back to Godhead, back to home? Everything we can do. So our this Krishna consciousness movement is directly approaching the spiritual sky, back to home, back to Godhead. No more evolutionary process. That is the advantage of this Krishna conscious... If you make your consciousness completely absorbed in Krishna, if you understand what is Krishna, what is your relationship, how you have to act in that relationship, simply if you learn this science in this life, then it is assured by the Lord Himself, Krishna, in the Bhagavad-gita, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya: [bg. 4.9] “After leaving this body, one does not come again back to this material world to accept one of the 8,400,000’s of species of body, but he goes directly unto Me.” Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [bg. 15.6]. “And if one can go back there, then he does not come back again in this material world to accept this material body.” And material body means three kinds of miseries, threefold miseries always. And at least threefold miseries are exhibited in four kinds of distresses, namely birth, death, old age, and disease.

So this Krishna consciousness movement is not a new movement. It is there always in the Vedic scriptures, but people have forgotten. So we are trying to revive that movement, although in India the movement is there always, especially since the last five hundred years, introduced by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In your country it is introduced since 1966. But people are appreciating. We have got many books and literature, magazines, to convince people about the importance of this movement. And those who are coming to be a serious student of this movement, initiated, they require to follow four principles of regulation. That one, first regulation, is that the student is not allowed to have illicit sex life. In this country, the guardians, the teachers, the government allows the boys and girls to meet together and have illicit sex life without marriage. That is not allowed in Krishna consciousness movement. If any boy or girl wants sex life, then he should regularly be married. That is civilized way. Because in the civilized society there is marriage ceremony. According to Vedic system, the father and mother’s responsibility is for the child unless they are married. It is the duty of the parents to see that the girl and the boy is married by the supervision of the parents. That is the Vedic way of civilization. In India the... Especially for the girls. If the girl is above the age of 13 years old, and if she is not married by the father, or in the absence of father, the elder brother... Mother has not so much responsibility. But the father or the elder brother... Then it is said that that man, father or elder brother, will go to hell. So it is a great responsibility to take care of the girls. According to Manu-samhita, Vedic principle, woman has no independence. She must be taken care of by somebody. In the early age the father is to take care, in the younger age the husband, a good husband has to take care, and when she is old, the elderly son, he has to take care. But a woman is never allowed to remain independent. That is Vedic principle of life. Actually, the woman is the weaker sex. They require protection by good father, good husband, and good child also. In my case also... There are many cases. I’ve left my home. I have got my wife, my elderly children, my grandchildren. So they are taking care of my wife. She has no concern. So that is the way of social system. And especially in our Krishna consciousness movement, we want to give the students complete peace of mind, because without peace of mind nobody can cultivate Krishna consciousness. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam.

evam prasanna-manaso

bhagavad-bhakti-yogatah

bhagavat-tattva-vijnanam

mukta-sangasya jayate

[sB 1.2.20]

There is a process. This science of understanding God, the science of God, is a great science. People have no knowledge about it, but it is a great science. And the ways and means of understanding God is different from ordinary material science. So the ways and means and the process of understanding the science of Godhead is to hear.

So if we neglect to install DVD cosmology in our personal lives then how will we keep this vow of no illicit sex life? I was at the temple last night and I saw this DVD conspicuous by it's absents, illicit sex was rampent among the members. An obvious lack of spiritual and material leadership in a community.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

lol your off your head mate

 

a chold molester a vaisnava? a kanishta? lol give me a break. Even in a society of yavana's a childmolester is the lowest of the low and you say kanista?

 

A yavana wouldnt even DREAM of molesting of hurting a child, and your blase about the fact a vaisnava kanishta would do such a thing! This is the problem with ISKCON a bunch of namby pamby child molester apologists. Its really sick.

Hare Krsna

Yes, I agree about child molesting, he is animal and less than sutible to occupy a position in 'Human' society, DVD. I don't apologies for such, he is what he has done, a sort of monster. The real verdic is death, death for rape too, no mater which sex is the victim. He is an agresser, a henious predator to put down with all prodigious. Dead now.

Please apologist? Not me!! I was fishing for opinion, you have a good one on this delicate subject.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raje

What I'm saying is ISKCON is the mission you serve, I'm not involved with changing ISKCON's internal affairs, so it isn't 'my business'. That doesn't mean I'm not concerned with what develops there. I wouldn't be talking with you about this otherwise.

 

But just to be completely honest, you guys though have sounded off like a couple of gun-nut A-team whackos on several occasions that gives me pause as to your judgment if ever allowed to assume a position of power. This may be totally inaccurate and don't take it too seriously, but when looking to change the government you have to be concerned as to who may fill the vaccuum. Sometimes the revolutionaries are great at overthrow but suck badly as rulers. I hope that makes sense to you This is half joking and half not.

 

Anyhow, I wish you well and hope you are successful in pleasing your Srila Swami Maharaj. Happy Gaura Purnima!

The problem for me is I'm a bad revolutionary and a good vaccum filler, daily determination to pursevere over the long haul. But no good at turning the tied.

CB-r

I believe this is your last hurdle.

 

IN ESSENCE, Srila Prabhupada ordered new vows to be given. He just had to get it on record. The regs did change. And so did alot of peripheral rules which are to be followed just as strictly as a vow, if you want advancement.

 

So in essence, those giving initiations on Srila Prabhupada's behalf in the later years were in disobedience as to the vows they were holding everyone to.

 

Those with some brahminical capacity were able to hang on longer.

 

It is quite simple.

 

So when someone later is told about the conspiracy to withhold the truth, and breaks down crying remembering the torture they put themselves through trying to be more like a brahmana, thinking of suicide because they were haplessly breaking rules they could never really keep and didn't make sense for them. Even if they followed most of the 4 regs in their negative connotation, their positive engagement was never enough to fill the void, and it was false repression and renunciation the whole way.

 

They are overjoyed to hear that the 4 regs are tailor made to them, without loosing their essence, and that a wide range of other rules were meant in the same light.

 

And someone wants them to follow the original "vows" they were tricked into?

 

That is like saying there can be consensual sex between a 12 year old girl and a 30 year old man. She doesn't even know what she is consenting to.

 

In the same way, after Srila Prabhupada changed the rules, the Transcendental Shabda permeated the ether, and that was the standard henceforward, the Guna and Karma of all Jiva's to approach his movement from then on perfectly accounted for by his Dictator, Sri Paramatma.

 

Let the people go. In love, they will return.

 

Hare Krsna

Again, what Bk Devarsi said.

Like you said, you didn't take a vow for the 4 regs, and if ISKCON starts with some other system where not all 4 are part of the agreement with Guru per the varnasharama system, I have no problem. But if someone does take the vows to follow the regs, there's no question they should follow, even if the regs change later. Unless Guru says they are retroactively reduced. This is personal for me because I don't follow, I drink caffeine and have sex with my wife even though we aren't trying to make babies. You know how it goes. I'm still a materialist and struggling to even make a half-hearted attempt at surrender.

 

That is the point of this thread IMO, following whatever regs you agree to, and the challenges in doing so. Can we not make this all about daiva varnashrama dharma? I think there is much to learn just in talking about how you overcome fall-down from not following, or if you just can't follow how you continue on etc. My wife got me a espresso machine recently for example. Maya is everywhere!

Yes, maya is every where, so best to bunker down in close communities giving supportive strength to follow better and better........again I thought this pertanate................................................4/20/74/mw. hydr.one of the best conversations on DVD....................

Pancadravida: What if the person cannot chant sixteen rounds a day. He says, “I can’t...”

Prabhupada: Then he is not even a human being. He is a rascal. That’s all. He is not a human being. What to consider of talking...? Don’t talk about him if he cannot chant sixteen rounds. He is not even a human. He is animal. [break]

Pancadravida: ...even he may be employed as factory worker or something.

Prabhupada: Well, if you take factory workers are better than animals, that is another thing.

Nitai: One point that you made a few years ago in Vrindavana was that this demoniac civilization, especially in U.S.A., keeps a man so much engaged, they make them work so hard, just to earn the simple necessities of life, that they don’t have time to cultivate spiritual life.

Prabhupada: Well, if he likes, he can get time because he is not in the factory twenty-four hours. But if one... That is explained, apratihata. Krishna consciousness cannot be checked by any material condition. If anyone wants to become Krishna conscious, it is not checked. So there is nothing impediment, provided he wants to become. In any condition of life, sthane sthitah, if he simply hears about Krishna then everything is all right. He will gradually catch up everything and adjust things. But if he has no ears to hear about Krishna, then it is difficult. Therefore sravanam. The first thing is that. The first qualification—he must be eager to hear about Krishna. Then everything will come. Sravanam kirtanam vishnoh smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam dasyam [sB 7.5.23]. [break]

Pancadravida: ...such devotees that they do service, they may be very big, they attract so many people, they are successful, kirtana and everything, but we know they are not chanting japa. What can we do in that situation? Are we...

Prabhupada: Situation, he is doing some service. He is doing some service.

Pancadravida: Yes.

Prabhupada: So because on account of that service, if he could not, that can be excused. But not that practice should be taken as permanent business. The regulation is that if you cannot finish your chanting that day, then next day you should forget sleeping and eating and must finish it.

Pancadravida: Some persons we encounter they don’t even chant at all, and yet we are in association with them, and they are...

Prabhupada: No, if you miss on account of busy-ness, then next day you must finish it. You should not go to sleep. You should not... Yes, that day you should forget all other business. First of all compensate this.

Satsvarupa: Some devotees have it as a chronic condition, though.

Prabhupada: Then he is animal.

Satsvarupa: But still, he’s doing lots of good devotional service.

Pancadravida: He may even be manager.

Prabhupada: Then they will get some chance later on. What is that devotee, if you do not follow the regulative principles? The business is that if one day you cannot, but finish. The next day you must finish. Now, for eating, he is very eager, and for sleeping, he is very eager, and for finishing chanting, he has no eagerness. Then he is animal. It is simply an excuse. Yesterday you had no time? You were very busy? All right. Today you forget your sleeping and eating. Finish it. That is wanted. [break] And only for chanting, you have no time. This is not allowed. This is not allowed. This is cheating, that “I am so busy.”

Pancadravida: Most of these devotees in Hyderabad, they are chanting twenty-five rounds a day or more.

Prabhupada: That’s all right. If you can chant more, that is good. [break]

Pancadravida: ...must associate with them, that is difficult.

Prabhupada: But you do your business. You don’t follow them. That’s all. You remain perfect. There are many imperfects, admitting, but you try to remain perfect so that they may see you, your behavior, and they may follow you. If everyone is sincere in his activity, then where is the question? The society means if I am defective, I am seeing that you are doing nicely, so I will be ashamed. That is also teaching. Actually that should be the practice. If I cannot finish my sixteen rounds due to some business, then next day I must finish it. If you say that “Next day also, I am busy,” then you should forego your eating and sleeping and finish it. That is the way. You are so busy, but you do not forget your eating and sleeping. That is cheating. If you are so busy that you forget your eating and sleeping, then I can consider that you are very busy. But you do not forget this portion. “Whenever there is opportunity, I sleep and eat. And I have no time for chanting”—this is cheating. How long you can go on by cheating? You must finish it. Hare Krishna. Somebody, after initiation he promises, “Yes, I shall follow these rules and regulations. I shall chant sixteen rounds,” before the fire, before the Deity, before the guru, and if he does not follow, then he is a cheater. What to speak of his becoming a Vaishnava, he is a cheater. He breaks all his promises. Therefore after seeing, observing a person is doing everything, then say second initiation, or then he should not be recommended for second initiation unless the president and the other authorities see that he is doing nicely, he is following. Otherwise he should not be recommended. If he is recommended, that is also another cheating. If you know that this person is not following the rules and regulation, then why should you recommend him? Then it is another cheating.

What I like is the mood is even that the person that is 'animal' he is not removed from service nor asked to leave/kicked out. He is made to be ashamed because everyone else is doing there VOWS in the community. So by others examples and his own guilt he has some chance.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

So no problem then

Thank you:)

CB-r

When in disagreement, is it a ksatriya trait to lob insults? Not like that one hurts, just it doesn't help in a respectful conversation. Please refrain from personal attacks.

Read Mahabharata, the Ganguli edition. Great fun.

CB-r

He was saying they were for the varnashrama college, which would be open to the public. In preparation for the ashrams.

You conveniently keep rejecting SrilaPrabhupada saying in our centers with our people......

2/14/77(r2)

Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.

Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform...

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

How much more plain can that be? Go to the conversation, see that it is not taken out of context.

Bhima didn't take a vow from his Guru not to eat meat. Look at the way a ksatriya honors his vows, look at Bhisma.

I didn't either:)

CB-r

I was asking what date this is from so I can read it in its entirety.

3/14/74 and read 3/12/74

Other dates are not correct?

2/14/77 room conversation(2) Mayapura

4/20/74 morrning walk in Hyderabad

CB-r

It seems you guys have a problem because who is authorized to make any adjustments within ISKCON? When adjustments should be made, who can put a stamp of approval?

I hesitate, but the set up now is for the GBC to make informed choices. But it also says in Srila Prabhupada's will that if they(GBC) fail to act for 'any reason' then they can be removed. Very simple on paper, the execution was convoluted then and remains so up to now. Bad performance and remaining in office.

You do have a better situation for now. I have hope for you/yours after Srila Govinda Maharaja leaves His body. Will He name someone? and is this new person also a ritvic representative of Srila B. R. Sridara Maharaja?

CB-r

No, I'm saying I'll take whatever the instruction of my Guru is, no problem. You have a different situation where you are not comfortable with the leadership of your organization. That's your controversy and I realized it really was none of my business.

My dear Prabhu, the controvercy is changing the Guru's standards/words whimsically. With no previous directive to do so. This is a big all encompassing eventuality to bad hearing and speaking. For any Math.

CB-r

OK, enjoy your controversy then.

Am I right about the same day for SCSMath? Or is your web page wrong?

CB-r

All I can say is good luck with that then, if that is how you wish to interpret things. It is clear you have you mind made up and no flexibility exists. You are right even if you are wrong. I've said my peace, you disagree and I see no further point in arguing. Hari bol.

So much evidence you asked for and rejected on a whim. I asked you to read all the conversations then respond with a counter arguement based on the conversations in question...

3/12-14/74

4/20/74

2/14/77

Please read and YOU tell me where I have gone wrong. I am willing to do this with you.

CB-r

I'm guessing the mercy of Nityananda Prabhu, being so wide, would accomodate geographic necessities to allow the devotees to glorify Him. I don't see the controversy here.

Endless change is the controvercy. If it is all good, then why would Govinda Maharaja change that all His temples will now follow holy days as they fall in India first, except ekadasi?

CB-r

'In our centers' doesn't say anything about initiation or vows. 'In our centers' also the varnas would be recognized for the administration of the material order, but this doesn't mean you don't follow the regulative principals if you accept the vows during initiation. And Srila Swami Maharaj was clear that the devotees were not in the varnas.

 

You show me where he says different vows for different initiations. I will be happy to accept if this is the case. Otherwise you are speculating.

Silly rabbit, this truth is for sadhikas of Srila Prabhupada.

CB-r

You are the one making the assumption, you need to prove your point. I am not the one making the speculation. Post it for all to see. What is the context of the conversation, was he talking about initiated disciples or just about the varnas in general? Was he saying if you have already taken initiation and made vows that it is OK for you to break them?

 

You are the one posting the notion that initiated disciples fall into four varnas and have different regs to follow. You need to provide substantial evidence for this if you want to be taken seriously.

I have proved my point, many times over. Books, conversations. It is you that resists the truth.

CB-r

Is he talking about his initiated disciples or sudras, ksatriyas in general society? Where does he say these are initiated Hari Nam disciples? Context is critical here.

Read the whole conversation then, I don't mind. I've not changed context, this is in ISKCON. That necissaraly mean His followers.

Where does He say they ARE NOT initiated or will never be as long as they stay meat eaters? Same question.

Unwriten, or understood is not good enough to defeat this VOW

CB-r

'In our centers' doesn't say anything about initiation or vows. 'In our centers' also the varnas would be recognized for the administration of the material order, but this doesn't mean you don't follow the regulative principals if you accept the vows during initiation. And Srila Swami Maharaj was clear that the devotees were not in the varnas.

 

You show me where he says different vows for different initiations. I will be happy to accept if this is the case. Otherwise you are speculating.

Read line for line in these conversations and then you reply with a counter explaination that will satisfy you contention. Three main conver. I'm using 3/12-14/74, 4/20/74, 2/15/77. Or your the 'speculator'

CB-r

This is a relivent DVD conversation on April 20 1974 about our ISKCON. And directly says sudra will get everything, including initiations.

 

Someone once said 'Now run to the folio" I only need it to post. If you knew me, you would see that my book(all) are full of post-its, to mark most of what I referance from the folio. I've study this for 34 yrs. I don't need to make up anything, it is plainly there already.

 

 

Mahamsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Krishna.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Mahamsa: He is a devotee. He is not a sudra making garlands.

 

Prabhupada: No. He is not a ordinary gardener.

 

Pancadravida: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges.

 

Prabhupada: Any engagement, any engagement for Krishna, he is Vaishnava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaishnava. He is above all these.

 

Pancadravida: A sudra, if he is working, he cannot take brahmana initiation, but he can take hari-nama, is that it?

 

Prabhupada: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brahmana, as sudra, as kshatriya, like that.

 

sa gunan samatityaitan

brahma-bhuyaya kalpate

mam ca vyabhicarini

bhakti-yogena yah sevate

[bg. 14.26]

 

A devotee, because he is working as a sudra, he is not a sudra; neither he is a brahmana. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the sudra’s work nicely—let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?

 

Mahamsa: Does he get second initiation?

 

Prabhupada: Everything he will get.

 

Mahamsa: He gets.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: “Now he has become fully competent Vaishnava.” Just like master is teaching the servant, “Now you give massage in this way, this way.” But that does not mean he has become servant.

 

Pancadravida: What if the person working as sudra says, “I can do so much. I can...,”

 

Prabhupada: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brahmana nor sudra. He may act like a sudra, but he is not sudra. He may act like a brahmana; he is not brahmana. He is Vaishnava. Just like gopis. The gopis, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brahmana class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramya kacid upasana vrajavadhu-vargena. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Krishna. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Krishna? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Krishna. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brahmana, a sudra or vaisya. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. The only business is to see: sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... [sB 1.2.6]. Aiye. Hare Krishna. Jaya. That is wanted.

 

 

(CB-r)

This is the third time I'm posting this, it is very plain for the simple, honest.

 

This is from 2/15/77

 

 

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

 

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You’ll be ha...

 

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

 

Prabhupada: No, no.

 

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

 

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

 

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

 

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

 

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

 

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

 

Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krishna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krishna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

 

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.

 

Hari-sauri: So we’d have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

 

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they’re falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krishna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?

 

CB-r

Where has Srila Prabhupada said that sudra MUST follow 4 reg's before getting second. He does not!! Do you think it is a mistake? Do you think Prabhupada has forgotten about 4regs in such an important conversation as trying to instruct His disciples about DVD in ISKCON??? NO!!! This is a change not a mistake.

When asked twice in one conv. Prabhupada replies.....

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hridayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

The fact that Srila Swami Maharaj intended his initiated diciples to take different sets of vows has not been posted. That the students of his varnashrama college or the greater society at large would follow different sets of regulations by their varna isn't what is in dispute. This is about initiation and vows. This is about bhakti yoga.

This is a relivent DVD conversation on April 20 1974 about our ISKCON. And directly says sudra will get everything, including initiations.

Someone once said 'Now run to the folio" I only need it to post. If you knew me, you would see that my book(all) are full of post-its, to mark most of what I referance from the folio. I've study this for 34 yrs. I don't need to make up anything, it is plainly there already.

Mahamsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Krishna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mahamsa: He is a devotee. He is not a sudra making garlands.

Prabhupada: No. He is not a ordinary gardener.

Pancadravida: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges.

Prabhupada: Any engagement, any engagement for Krishna, he is Vaishnava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaishnava. He is above all these.

Pancadravida: A sudra, if he is working, he cannot take brahmana initiation, but he can take hari-nama, is that it?

Prabhupada: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brahmana, as sudra, as kshatriya, like that.

sa gunan samatityaitan

brahma-bhuyaya kalpate

mam ca vyabhicarini

bhakti-yogena yah sevate

[bg. 14.26]

A devotee, because he is working as a sudra, he is not a sudra; neither he is a brahmana. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the sudra’s work nicely—let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?

Mahamsa: Does he get second initiation?

Prabhupada: Everything he will get.

Mahamsa: He gets.

Prabhupada: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: “Now he has become fully competent Vaishnava.” Just like master is teaching the servant, “Now you give massage in this way, this way.” But that does not mean he has become servant.

Pancadravida: What if the person working as sudra says, “I can do so much. I can...,”

Prabhupada: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brahmana nor sudra. He may act like a sudra, but he is not sudra. He may act like a brahmana; he is not brahmana. He is Vaishnava. Just like gopis. The gopis, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brahmana class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramya kacid upasana vrajavadhu-vargena. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Krishna. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Krishna? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Krishna. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brahmana, a sudra or vaisya. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. The only business is to see: sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... [sB 1.2.6]. Aiye. Hare Krishna. Jaya. That is wanted.

(CB-r)

This is the third time I'm posting this, it is very plain for the simple, honest.

This is from 2/15/77

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You’ll be ha...

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krishna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krishna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.

Hari-sauri: So we’d have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they’re falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krishna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?

CB-r

yes braj, you have stated it correctly and concisely. But it won't be accepted by these two they have their motives and fantasies to hold onto.

 

The good thing is your post will have good effect in protecting others.

What about 'in our centers' escapes you and Braj? Is it really that esoteric. The answer when Srila Prabhupada is asked where, is quite plain you know.

CB-r