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Posts posted by bhaktatraveler


    So we know of at least C the bhakti king practices what he preachs. However it is not what Prabhupada taught. Much of the conversations he is quoting is from a talk in Vrndavana where Srila Prabhupada is discussing about opening up a varnashrama college in India, (I think Vrndavana but don't remember exactly). This college was to be for the general public where parents could send their kids.


    We are still waiting for the explict quote where Srila Prabhupada gives permission for his initiated kysatriya type disciples to go to the woods to kill and eat some poor animal.


    Can you picture it. Once a month all these so-called kysatriyas set out from the city Iskcon centers in a camo colored van, dressed a vedic warriors, heading for woods to get in their killing practice.


    I don"t know what you guys are smoking but I think you got a bad batch. Which brings up ainteresting pont. Are Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciples who are classified as sudras also allowed to break the no intoxication vows on some schedulued basis, you know like a few beers or bowls after work?


    Another condencending to DVD post true to 'form' by aTheist. All pun intended. Plus intended miss direction in the first sentence, DVD is for ISKCON.....



    letter 5/27/74 to TP Roma


    I am enclosing brahmana threads and gayatri mantra for Adi Kesava das and Vivasvan das. You must be very careful before you award the brahminical thread by recommending a man to me. Now that we are dividing our society into the four orders as much as possible, it is not that every man has to be made a brahmana after a year. Especially if one cannot even get up early and go to mangala arati he cannot become a brahmana. So consider it carefully before you recommend further men to me.




    Could you repost the quote, with as much of the surrounding conversation as possible. 'in ISKCON', 'our centers' doesn't say 'initiated disciples' so I want to ber sure what the context is. Thanks.


    Letter to Trai das/Roma dated 5/27/74



    I am enclosing brahmana threads and gayatri mantra for Adi Kesava das and Vivasvan das. You must be very careful before you award the brahminical thread by recommending a man to me. Now that we are dividing our society into the four orders as much as possible, it is not that every man has to be made a brahmana after a year. Especially if one cannot even get up early and go to mangala arati he cannot become a brahmana. So consider it carefully before you recommend further men to me.




    Could you repost the quote, with as much of the surrounding conversation as possible. 'in ISKCON', 'our centers' doesn't say 'initiated disciples' so I want to ber sure what the context is. Thanks.


    converstion on 3/12-14/74 or 2/14/77 on DVD. to much to repost. please go back in this thread or the DVD thread. A list of references was posted early on the DVD thread about a compilation book.




    Sorry but the regs were laid out clearly for all and didn't you guys agree to follow when you took initiation? A vow? Did Srila Swami Maharaj tell you you are released from some regs?


    Again, quotes supporting that it is OK for an initiated disciple to eat meat would be helpful. Many more would join the movement if that were the case I guess. Would there be a separate ksatriya initiation, a sudra initiation, a vaisya initiation?


    The diametric expantion of DVD would be a next Hare Krsna explosion. World wide.




    Once when accompanied by Acyutananda Maharaja, Prabhupada went to Sridhar Maharaja's Math. There Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja retired to Sridhar Maharaja's room in order to have a private conversation. When they came out of the room several hours later, Acyutananda Maharaja asked Prabhupada what they were talking about. Prabhupada told, "If I told you everything, you would faint, Sridhar Maharaja has such high realizations".


    My reference came from a different person, on this subject of DVD, as he said.




    I'm a donkey, you are a dinosaur. Wait, I thought you were a magpie!


    Anyhow, I really didn't mean any offense, I hope you know that. As much as I argue with you guys, I know you are sincere and I just wanty to have the proper understanding. If you've got it, great, but you'll have to convince me.



    No, No, No offense. It's my spelling that is at fault. :) Not what I'm saying.


    To address the other post about meat eating. In the same conversation Prabhupada says 'in ISKCON', 'our centers'. It is there for the honest. He is asked twice in that first conversation about 4 reg's and both times augments the perscription of regulation. It is said by Prabhupada, as I have repeated. And try my best to live.


    Believe me when I make a big mistake Prabhupada will tell me to correct it. Last time I tryed to present this DVD cosmoligy on line I was told to stop by my Guru and I did. That is why I have been silent for so long, on all the forms. You can see my date of registration is 04. And no posts untill now. Now He has said to speak.


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja


    Dear Devarsi prabhu,


    Your points are well taken. Indeed, Maya devi has a myriad of ways to mislead us.


    However, I must ask ... just how effective are these kind of forums? Obviously, many people read what is written but do they take it seriously? Personally speaking, I take everything I read on internet forums with a big grain of salt. I am quite certain it is the case with most others as well, especially those that have a embodied Guru. Correct me if I am wrong though (therefore the question at the beginning of the paragraph). Now if that is the case indeed, any 'poison' that is being injected into these forums will have minimal effect, so do we really need to worry?


    There are innocent people/devotees now and again looking in. That is who I try to reach. It is just sh-ts and giggles though, interactive TV.


    But I have meet in real life some devotees I was posting to and each time we meet I was equally impressed with the person behind the cyber wall. I would not stop posting as I see fit, because a new devotee friend is just around the corrner. And I need all I can get. 1000's are not enough.


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja


    I'm just curious how this harmonizes with Srila Swami Maharaj's words below:




    I believe Srila Swami Maharaj wants the devotees to break up into the varnas and ashrams for organizational reasons only, but that devotees are not part of those varnas. So because a karmi ksatriya can eat meat on occasions doesn't mean an ISKCON devotee that is part of the ksatriya section should.


    You seculation is baseless. I have shown the evidence. You think I've never had other confirmation from some those devotees that were there during these conversations and privy to the direct hearing? Silly boy. :)


    Srila Prabhupada once said 'If I told you everything, you would faint'. I'm just the one that is shouting from the roof tops. Others are sheepish, can't stand the ridicule I take. But they have told me as confirmation.


    The date of this reference you site is before the change to a different paradigm.


    And I can follow an order even if the WHOLE world rejects it. Can I not? :cool:


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja


    No it is not another discussion. It goes to show that your emphasis on everyone finding their own varna as a means to surrender is misplaced because even if it were possible to implement it there is no time.


    When the house is own fire the firemen rush in to save the occupants. There is no thought of social status as to who gets rescued first. One daughter maybe a Phd. and the other a crack whore. They save who they can as they can without considering such things.


    You say you tell everyone you meet including the clerk at the corner store about the need for DVD. Do you really expect someone to sign up as a sudra and surrender to your instructions because you are a kysatriya? Boy that clerk must forward to you coming in. :rolleyes:



    I was tring to play nice with you, thinking I was maybe out of line here or there. But no. You take what attempt at preaching I do and ridicual the attempt. Demon type black snake mood/reaction, spiting fire at the devotees(?) preaching. Even if the attempt is from a less qualified devotee, at least I try. I try something instead of doing nothing. I do this in my life now, not in the ether with 10,000 posts of false ego:( I walk the walk. Come see if you are man enough, walk in my shoes for a week. See how I live. I challenge. Come to CB.


    And yes I get smiles from the clerks I have regular contact with. I also have almost shaven(buzz, no gaurd) head, tilak and neck beads. But when I go to the schools or school board, they run or whatch there P's and Q's. Come with me, you are invited. Anyone who wants to call my bluff of quality of ksatriya is welcome to test. Short of violance. I live in Alachua. All cyber air.


    Right now I'm conveying the idea of DVD, not to you appearently. Aways I'm giving reference from Prabhjupada and you never take and say 'no, I think it is ment to be understood like this because....' NO, just fire from the belly below, demon exposed.


    You do not have to like me, I can take it. And then some! But in your hatred for me you have offended the order of Guru to do. If you throw this order for DVD out, then you are disqualified to speak on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and 10,600+ posts means d-ck. You can not pick and choose what you will follow, it is all or? to much junk you speak.


    Like Prabhupada says.....


    "Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krishna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krishna conscious society."



    What fire are you talking about? Material existance? Who's house is on fire?Then DVD coupled to bhakti principles. It would appear that you are just a foolish critic pretending to be above such low DVD ideas.



    Hare Krsna, Catrubahu das Bhakti-r


    DVD is like the husk and Krsna bhakti is like the grain of rice itself. Both are necessary, but still, there is no real taste or nourishment in the husk. Yet without the husk at a particular stage then no rice. But if we have some spiritual hunger these DVD topics although connected with Prabhupada and the general philosophy will become dry and boring. If you want to follow Prabhupada then preach and give Hari Katha like he did. We need to hear about every aspect of the philosophy in the same balanced way that he gave. To focus on DVD is a political mentality, a mental concoction and a manifestation of lack of guidance.


    The first part of this is half agreeable.


    The last line is not at all as Prabhupada would say in the context of the topic. DVD is half of what the movement is. Thats the point is the topic, if you want Krsna katha as in talks about the pastimes of the Lord then go to another topic. Others are great at this and I will not post DVD there unless I see it discussed.


    Political activites are for ksatriya, I claim. So why not discuss as such? Mental concoction?????? Pigs eye:mad: Manifestation of lack of guidance? That brings me back to the inquirery as to who is Govinda Maharaja's siksha? I have as much guidence as Govinda Maharaja, through Srila prabhupada's merciful instructions, just like anyone else can. Go bark that 'living Guru' tune at someone elses tree, I'm not listening.


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja


    Nice if academics are what is of interest. The earth is in a critical emergency situation, time is pressing. What is needed is for people to humble themselves before Krsna or God if they prefer and chant His name.


    Yes, but that is another conversation. we are on the eve of distruction, thank Krsna.


    Like I've said for yrs the only way for DVD, will be full funding or Armagedon. Either one is good for me.




    We Will Never Leave ISKCON (Excerpt)

    Nov. 20, 2001


    <TABLE width=800 border=0><TBODY><TR></TR><TR></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja



    tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer

    bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi

    yatra kva vabhadram abhud amusya kim

    ko vartha apto 'bhajatam sva-dharmatah

    ["If someone gives up his occupational duties and works in Krsna consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And what can one gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?" Or, as the Christians say, "What profiteth a man if he gains the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?" (1.5.17)]

    The navarshis said to Vyasadeva that if one performs his material duties perfectly and regularly, there is no true benefit. If he follows varnasrama-dharma perfectly, there is actually no spiritual gain. On the other hand, if one begins chanting the holy name, is initiated by a pure guru, and is trying to follow him, but he comes under the clutches of maya; as long as he does not commit offenses he has a chance for spiritual progress. What is the gain in varnasrama? Even if one performs his duty, still, the spiritual result is nil.

    Srila Swami Maharaja's internal mood is the same as that of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and our guru-paramapara - to change the direction of the living entities' mood towards Krsna. This is the best mercy, and he endeavored throughout his life for this. In his last days he told me he was not satisfied, because he was remembering so many of his disciples who were not following him and not trying to be real Iskcon. He therefore ordered me, "Help my disciples and give me samadhi." He also told me, "I made some mistakes. Please ask my god-brothers to forgive me, because I preached to my disciples that they are not preaching." I replied to him, "You made no offense. It was your duty at that time. You said your god-brothers are not preaching. This was just to give your less intelligent neophyte disciples enthusiasm. You have not done a wrong thing. You spoke appropriately for the needs of your students at that time. Your internal desire was to turn their mood toward Krsna. Now you are seeing that they are offensive to your god-brothers, by saying they have not preached."

    What is preaching? If one is 'preaching' and not following bhakti, then his activity is karma-marga (the path of fruitive activities). Where are the persons who were preaching all over the world? So many are not in Iskcon. Your Prabhupada therefore requested me to help them to become Iskcon in the real sense.

    Don't follow the rtviks. They are not disciples of Prabhupada. They never actually served him in a real sense, and they are opposed to his teachings. You should try to realize what instructions Srila Swami Maharaja has given. He has never given anything other than the instructions of Srila Rupa Gosvami. He always followed Rupa Gosvami, and therefore he is a rupanuga-vaisnava. He wanted to very clearly give the path of rupanuga, but he first had to cut down the jungles of mayavada and atheism. Because he wanted to give this path, he requested me to help them. He could have given it then, but they were not ready at that time. He told me to help them so that they could become strong in bhakti; more strong than iron; as strong as thunderbolts. You should therefore preach your Prabhupada's real mission, Rupa Gosvami's mission, everywhere.


    Only those who have had a high class of sadhu-sanga can realize his mission and his glories. Only a maha-bhagavata can understand another maha-bhagavata. You cannot realize this. You have heard from Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura that Vamsidasa Babaji was a paramahamsa. Unless you heard it from Srila Sarasvati Thakura, how could you have understood? [Vamsidasa Babaji would, for example, keep fish bones in front of his hut, and sometimes he wouldn't dress his Deities. On other occasions he wouldn't follow Ekadasi, and sometimes he would offer tea and coffee to his Thakurji.] Prapujacarana Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja has also said about your Prabhupada that his power came from Sri Nityananda Prabhu, and therefore he is a saktyavesa-avatara. Who can realize this? Only one who is following him in the real sense.

    I used to see him when he was singing Sad Gosvami-astakam and Gauranga Bolite Habe. He used to sing in a pathetic tune (filled with feelings of separation and longing for Krsna), with his voice choked up and tears in his eyes.

    Gaura Premanande!



    As irrelivent to the issue of Srila Prabhupada's DVD instruction today as it was when spoken. Must be static in the TV reception tonight. What an unnecessary post.


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das bhakti-r


    Is there any Hare Krsna farms and communities in the U.S. operating with a fully functional varnasrama sytem?


    Excuse my ignorance of this I am isolated from Krsna communities here in Australia.


    As we have been discussing regulative principle of 4 varnas and 4 asramas? No! And that is why the push to imbide at least the idea amoung those that say 'I am a devotee of Krsna'




    Yes it is not possible by force. But we don't rely on external forces we rely on the mercy of Sri Krsna.


    TRANSLATION CC Madya 17.80

    “‘The Supreme Personality of Godhead has the form of sac-cid-änanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1]—transcendental bliss, knowledge and eternity. I offer my respectful obeisances unto Him, who turns the dumb into eloquent speakers and enables the lame to cross mountains. Such is the mercy of the Lord.’”

    Our varna standing is irrelevant.





    Yes, varna is only relevent in social structure, management of community. Not spiritual unstanding, nor advancement. It is means, not goal. Nor end.




    The Varnasrama Social System



    There is a natural system of social organization which can bring about a peaceful society where everyone is happy. This system is described in the timeless Vedic literature of India and it is called Varnasrama dharma.



    The purpose of the Varnasrama social system is to provide a structure which allows people to work according to their natural tendencies and to organize society so that everyone, regardless of their position, makes spiritual advancement.




    People can only work with a cooperative spirit if there is a central point. Over the years proponents of many different political ideologies have tried to unite society by providing such a central point, however, these attempts have all ultimately failed.


    Generally people work for their own pleasure and this is sometimes extended to working for the family, the nation or even the whole world. Because the aims and aspirations of the members of society are so varied it is practically impossible to achieve a peaceful situation as everyone is working to fulfill his own personal goals.


    The only universal central point around which everyone can work is God. He provides an absolute, eternal center for all our activities. If we try to make something else the central point the resulting society is doomed to fail.


    The Varnasrama system recognizes there are many different types of people who may not be spiritually inclined. The society is organized under the direction of qualified brahmanas and is divided into four occupational and four spiritual divisions in such a way that everyone is serving God simply by performing their occupational duties. As the entire society is arranged to please God, anyone working within the society also pleases God.





    The Structure of Varnasrama Society

    The practical application of the Varnasrama system is to divide the society according to four occupational and four spiritual orders of life.


    The Varnasrama system recognizes the natural talents and abilities of each person and provides work according to a persons qualities. There are four qualities of work, the brahmanas are the intellectual and priestly class, the ksatriyas are the government, the military and the administrative classes, the vaisyas are farmers and businessmen, and the sudras are workers.


    There are also four spiritual divisions, brahmacary, student life, grhastha, married life, vanaprasta, retired life and sunnyasa, renounced life. If this system is properly implemented under the direction of qualified brahmanas the result will be peace and prosperity throughout the world.



    The Corrupt Indian "Caste" System

    The Varnasrama social divisions are based on qualities and work. If someone has the qualities of a brahmana and if they work as a brahmana they are accepted as a qualified brahmana. This system should not be confused with the corrupt "caste" system of India.


    In India people claim to be brahmanas simply because they are born in a brahmana family even though they do not possess the qualifications or qualities of a brahmana and in most cases they are not working as brahmanas either..


    The result of the corruption of the original system has been the destruction of the entire social structure in India and the "caste" system is now being used by the rich to exploit and oppress the poor.



    Divisions According to Qualification

    In Varnasrama society all members are equally important. An analogy comparing the social body to the human body is given to explain this. The brahmanas are the head of the body as they possess the intelligence and give directions to the other parts of the body. The ksatriyas are likened to the arms of the body as their business as administrators and the military is to protect the social body from threats from outside (attacks from enemies) and disruption from within. (Thieves and rogues).


    The vaisyas are likened to the stomach. The stomach provides energy to the body. The vaisyas, as the productive class, are the farmers and businessman who produce and distribute food to the social body. The vaisyas are also responsible for protecting the cows.


    The sudras are likened to the legs as they provide the manual labor required by the social body.


    We look after our whole body. It is not that we attend to problems affecting the head and neglect problems in the legs. The body works as a coordinated unit and a problem anywhere in the body causes a disruption to the proper functioning of the whole body and is therefore immediately attended to.


    The social body should work as a coordinated unit with different members of the society acting in their respective positions as brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras according to their qualities. The result will be a happy, peaceful and efficient society.



    The Brahmanas

    Although all members of the social body are important, as the brahmanas are the intelligent class directing society by giving guidance and advice to the king or government (ksatriyas), it is vital that they be properly qualified.


    If the head of society is not functioning properly the whole social body is in trouble.


    All over the world we are seeing misguided governments make the lives of their citizens hell, simply because they have no qualified brahmanas to give them advice.


    The whole planet has become very unfortunate and disturbed due to such unqualified leadership.


    The brahmana's position is that of an unpaid adviser to the king or government. The business of the brahmana is to understand the Vedic Scriptures and be expert in applying them in different places and at different times.


    The Vedic system doesn't require the creation of any new rules or legislation The perfect laws have been given by Manu, the father of mankind in the Manu Samhita, and the qualified brahmana simply implements these timeless laws. There is no need for imperfect man made laws.


    The qualities of a brahmana are given in the Bhagavad-gita as peacefulness, self control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness and all of these qualities must be actually manifest before someone can be accepted as a brahmana.



    Giving Charity to the Brahmanas

    On special days such as the birth of a child, marriage and other auspicious occasions it is customary for the ksatriyas and vaisyas to give in charity to the brahmanas. The ksatriya king is wealthy because in return for giving the citizens protection he levies taxes. The vaisya farmers and businessmen are wealthy because of their farming and trading activity. The brahmana takes whatever small amount is required to maintain himself and his family and he distributes the rest of the charity he receives for the benefit of thepeople in general.


    Because the brahmana is intelligent and an expert in spiritual matters he can understand how best to distribute charity. It is for this reason in Vedic society charity is given to the brahmanas. It is not very intelligent to give charity to unqualified persons, for they will simply squander it. For example if you give a drunkard money, it will be used for purchasing alcohol, not food. Such charity is charity in the mode of ignorance and is not very auspicious.





    The ksatriyas

    The ksatriyas take the positions of king or politicians and the military.They administer society according to the directions and advice of the brahmanas.


    Their qualities are given in the Bhagavad-gita as heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership.



    The Perfect King

    A good ksatriya king is strong and just, he acts according to the advice of the brahmanas, he is loved by the law abiding citizens and feared as death personified by the thieves and rogues.


    In a country ruled by a qualified ksatriya king the citizens are protected and thus they develop good qualities and are peaceful and happy. Because the king is strong and honest the citizens have no fear of being disturbed by thieves and rogues or by attacks from invading armies. They also have no fear of being plundered by unfair or exorbitant taxation or dishonest government officers, as such a strong king will quickly correct any corruption within his own ministry.


    The lives of many saintly kings are described in Srimad Bhagavatam and we recommend those interested m hearing more about the the qualities and activities of such great souls study the Srimad Bhagavatam..



    The Problem With Modern Government

    In modern governments we find many politicians and government officers who are simply interested in a good salary and a comfortable life. They achieve this for themselves and their colleagues by levying exorbitant taxes and creating an ineffectual and bureaucratic top heavy government.


    The citizens under the rule of such an unqualified government are most unfortunate. They are not protected from thieves and rogues from within the country. Instead they are exploited by the governments taxation system. Excessive taxation is levied to maintain the ineffectual top heavy bureaucratic system. No one can be happy in such a difficult position



    Selection of Members of the Government

    Unless a person has the qualities of a ksatriya he should not be given the position of king, president, prime minister, minister or a military man.


    If the men in these positions do not have the qualities of a ksatriya (heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership) then the government becomes unworkable and the society suffers due to lack of protection.


    Currently, all over the world, the people in general are suffering because the governments of the world are full of unqualified persons who have no idea of the process of creating a fair society and maintaining law and order.





    The vaisyas

    The vaisyas are responsible principally for the production food and the protection of the cows. It is the duty of the brahmanas to understand the Vedic Scriptures and give guidance to the ksatriya government and military who, in turn give directions to the vaisyas and the sudras.


    The qualities of a vaisya are given in the Bhagavad-gita as farming, cow protection and business and they work to provide the society with the required food, clothing and other goods.



    The sudras

    The sudras have little intelligence and must therefore be engaged in the service of one of the other three classes.


    Their occupation is to perform manual labor, give service and to engage in arts and craftsmanship.


    The sudras are unable to support themselves independently therefore they must take shelter of an employer who can direct and provide for them.


    It is described in this age of Kali almost everyone is a sudra. We can actually see society is now so degraded that practically everyone must work as a sudra by serving an employer.


    Only the sudras take such employment, the brahmanas simply depend on God and this way they get everything required. They receive charity from members of the other divisions of society. The ksatriya has some land and collects taxes from the citizens and the vaisya makes some money by trading farm produce and doing business. Only the sudras depend on someone else for their maintenance.


    If proper education is provided then the sudras who have the capacity to learn can be elevated to higher positions in the social structure.


    A society of sudras means a society of chaos as sudras don't have the intelligence to organize society, therefore, there is great need to train qualified brahmanas to reestablish the "head" of the social body. If this is done there is certainly hope for the future



    Finally something intelligent and in line with Prabhupada, agrement 'as it is'




    I have more questions.


    In the Gita Krsna has described the varnas. I presume at the time Krsna spoke these words the varna system was operating functionally as a structure in the society.


    Today we do not have this system functioning as such in visible structure. But by closer observation we can see the variety of people and their varying qualifications. It is fairly easy to observe the nature of friends, neighbours etc. Especially after knowing someone for some time.


    So even though we do not have varna operating in a visible societal structure as such, the distinctions still exist in the material sphere. I think this is where Krsna's words on the said subject can still be seen as apparent today. Even though we do not have functioning varna in such a structured way as in vedic times, the distinctions of varna are still there today. Even if not acknowledged.


    Do you think this varna system can be introduced to modern society in a structured way? Do you think this is possible for the world? Or is it already existing in a modern context?



    Without us devotees living like the Pennsylvania Dutch as example, we will have a hard time changing a non Vaisnava anytime soon. Devotees are no better.


    The real thrust now is to bring this idea to the forefront of discussion. Just like Srila Prabhupada says in BG 18.18.......


    Knowledge, the object of knowledge and the knower are the three factors which motivate action; the senses, the work and the doer comprise the threefold basis of action.



    There are three kinds of impetus for daily work: knowledge, the object of knowledge and the knower. The instruments of work, the work itself and the worker are called the constituents of work. Any work done by any human being has these elements. Before one acts, there is some impetus, which is called inspiration. Any solution arrived at before work is actualized is a subtle form of work. Then work takes the form of action. First one has to undergo the psychological processes of thinking, feeling and willing, and that is called impetus. Actually the faith to perform acts is called knowledge. The inspiration to work is the same if it comes from the scripture or from the instruction of the spiritual master. When the inspiration is there and the worker is there, then actual activity takes place by the help of the senses. The mind is the center of all senses, and the object is work itself. These are the different phases of work as described in Bhagavad-gétä. The sum total of all activities is called accumulation of work.


    Guru says it can happen.




    A question for the ksatriyas: Have you eaten meat per the following? Not a criticism, just curious:



    I think this should cover BG 18.43, and give a good dog and pony show.


    Killing many times as per Srila Prabhupada's vani. I have hunted in India, Sri Lanka, and US. Eating as I like, as I have killed only.


    I have managed well as per the satisfaction of those managed and resulting increase in production, books out, money collected.


    I have been resorceful as need, when need and always know what to do next at any give time in my surroundings.


    I have always been a monogamous grhastha and am only single now because of failure on the wifes part. Adult son are witness to this. All sons and daughter live with me by free will, avoiding the woman.


    I've spent 27 yrs attempting to develop houshold life as a religious experience and a cultural haven. Living as I preached and lead. Not one day of abandonment, abuse to wife or children, nor lack of support. my wife never worked, not one day.


    I have always help the weak and defenceless and have been know to stop violence anywhere I am. Or be violent for protection when I'm needed. I have military experience. And upto looseing hearing, practiced killing.


    I have opened my house many times to devotees in need and given in charity as expected. Though lately I am much more selective. Because I am poor and know how to repare my own cars, I offer to work and devotees cars for free if they are in need. This I do regularly.


    I preach DVD to everone I meet, God conscious 4 varnas and 4 asramas. On the street, in the grocery store check out, to the plummer, baker and candle stick maker. Talked a middle aged black lady into being a slave, in theory, under the conditions I discribed once. Always I will try for DVD.


    Its a show, you asked. But all true.


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja


    I consider myself a sudra because of wasting the first half of my life in pursuit of the unreal. Thus entering darkness and not being able to tell what was what. Where the influence of the mode of ignorance was dominent.


    I consider myself a sudra because the only work I can seem to be qualified for is menial tasks.


    I am attempting to be a Vaisnava, hence forth desiring that this propensity to talk loosely of other Vaisnava's may leave my heart.


    What qualifications in life deems one fit to call themselves, Ksatriya?


    BG 18.43


    Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the kñatriyas.





    They remind me of a large group of young western sikhs I saw in Hrisikesh. They were thirty of them walking together all decked out in fancy new sikh clothes with brand new turbans and they all had the same big curved knives sheathed to their waists.


    They were strutin' all over the place but I never saw them do anything ksyatriya like, like take on some of the Gunda's that walk around with tridents selling ganja and trying to scare $ out of tourists.


    They did strike a good profile though. So Vouge.


    The jester only has more jokes, not scripture. I though this thread was about regulative principles? Quotes by Srila Prabhupada to support your jesting/condensending mood. Nothing from Mr 10,600+ post, of what? Jest?So much talk, so little said.


    'Regulative Principles' of Krsna Consciousness movement from Srila Prabhupada I think is the subject. Something from Prabhupada that will support your jesting/rejection.



    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja


    Indeed! But then again they are on a self appointed mission from God so who can stop them? Anyone who objects to their "preaching" must be an agent of the anti-Prabhupada or else why would they object to such empowered siksa.


    What a head trip. They are so confused that they are arguing for a system that they feel must be adopted in Iskcon to people who are not even in Iskcon. :confused:


    Back into your iskcon box boys where you can play big time Kysatriyas to your hearts content and where you may have hope of attracting a couple of followers.


    Oh yeah and you may want to remember that VAD or DVD, whichever you prefer, is a lifestyle and not just a topic for "preaching". How about you share some of your exalted ksyatriya pastimes with us. I am sure they would be inspiring. You know, like save any damsels in distress and slay any dragons lately?



    I'm speaking to the air waves beyond you two.


    Mahaksa used the VAD, he wants to make as many waves as posible, whenever posible.


    And this topic is perfect for DVD conversations.


    I've saved a few LA lady devotees in my time, thank you, court jester.


    One in San Diego too. From a suffer gang.


    Those were the days :)





    Whats the VAD squad doing here, anyway. Why nnot the other curreent thread.


    Anyway, ISKCON used the ploy of VAD to exert egomaniacal control over others. This way, they can openly discriminate against those not in their clique just as they have pracrticed open mysogeny over the years. I have no problem understanding VAD, because this is a natural creation by Lord Brahma. But if you have kali cela deciding who is brahmana, who gets the guns, who counts the money, and who are the lower class, I dont call them vaisnavas, I call them british. They have no concept of VAD, they are expert in the caste system. And the reformers are no different, because they are the followers of the great TKG.


    So, we are really not even sudras, so we should all shut up according to some's philosophy. Again, I see lots of soundbites, bits and pieces from the prabhupada said crew, but no one has a grasp on what VAD is. It is a natural creation of Lord Brahma, and if someone has natural propensity to act as brahmana, an esteemed advisor of all members of society, yet has no political pull with a materialistic society thet bears the name of Srila Prabhupada, such a person does the dishes and mops the floor, while bankers appointed by the same foundational leadership lose $100,000,000 in a span of 25 years and administrators cannot make decisions on clear cut criminal activity, you got just another perverted reflection of what was created by Lord Brahma.


    Contrivance and wishful thinking does not make it in this program. Be yourself, dont pretend, dont accept false authority suddenly out of fanaticism, judge with your feet all you hear from, this is intelligence. The Vad Squad can play their DVD's all they want, but what they really need is to go back to the standing order of VCR (Vaisnava Cooperation Requirement).


    I remember a greatly advanced disciple of Srila Prabhupada was told by a GBC that he was not bonafide. Srila Prabhupada told his sanyassi to speak, and chastized the GBC, saying, "You have no qualification to determine who is bonafide. I asked him to speak, and you question this decision, saying he is not bonafide? This is rascaldom". He later chastized this sanyassi who was reluctant to speak in the assembly of those who did not like him, saying "My opinion counts, the opinions of others do not." (Paraphrased discussion, but accurate.) So, if Srila Prabhupada asks me to be sudra, then that is what I am. He chastized me for pretending to be King Pariksit, but after the chastizement was over, he told me to become a real king. So am I a ksatriya? Maybe, but I didnt have to run to the gun store and bully all the bankers and workers demanding that they serve me. My mission is to become king, and I do this by understanding RAJAVIDYA. This is Vaisnavism, not polluted by materialistic kingdoms and false sense of control over others.


    All the VAD squad and those with thousands of convenient quotes on their data bases should erase all of them, log out, and go read the intro to BGAII. This way, you get Prabhupada as he is, in context, and his quotes will no longer be a source of anxiety for yall. And leave his personal letters alone, unless they are addressed to you, of course. This is a violation of his human rights, reading his mail, etc. Where is this authorized?


    haribol, ys, mahaksadasa



    You go to far with the Lord Brahma as speaker/instituter of DVD. I saw else where. It is Krsna first, from Krsna. He says in BG. Did Brahma speak BG? Then? Who is creater of the Mahattava? not Brahma. Your priorities are backwards.



    3/25/75 Mayapura SB lecture.


    These few words, if you simply understand... Blindly or openly, it doesn’t matter. Because if you touch fire, either blindly or openly, it will act. It will act. It is not that because I blindly accept Krishna as the Supreme Person, that will not act. No, it will act. Even if you have accepted Krishna blindly, it will act. Because the thing is the same. Either you accept in open eyes or blind eyes. So similarly, if you accept this theory—it is not theory; this is fact, that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead—these few words, then you are advanced student, immediately. Take it from me, that simply this conviction, that “Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead,” then you are advanced student in spiritual life.





    I just like the above, not you though right? You spite fire at the institution of DVD.


    I once saw a quote that said the words of the Guru have to act. I took it to mean the word/order was potent/impowered for the follower as long as he acted in some way to support, asist, imbide in the heart, that sooner or later the 'word' would act, give fruit. If you relentlessly reject DVD how can the order live or ever manifest in your life?


    This whole post was poison and rejectable as a whole. At least I'm presenting Srila Prabhupada's answer to our social problems. And you? You care not for other devotees pain and suffering that could be mitigated?


    There's nothing worthy to address here, all straw and a waste of time over and over and over again, the same reworded, child like aguements. I have sited Guru, you please counter with Guru's rejection of DVD....


    CC. ANTYA 5.71


    One is forbidden to accept the guru, or spiritual master, as an ordinary human being (gurushu nara-matih). When Ramananda Raya spoke to Pradyumna Misra, Pradyumna Misra could understand that Ramananda Raya was not an ordinary human being. A spiritually advanced person who is authorized to act as the spiritual master speaks as the Supreme Personality of Godhead dictates from within. Thus it is not he that is personally speaking. In other words, when a pure devotee or spiritual master speaks, what he says should be accepted as having been directly spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the parampara system.



    11/24/75 Mumbai CC. Lecture


    If you want to abide by the orders of Krishna, anu-silanam... Anu-silanam means cultivation. The words are there. The words are not different from Krishna. So as soon as you take the words as it is, you immediately associate with Krishna. Otherwise you take the instruction of guru, representative of Krishna. If you can please your guru, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah... **. If you can please His representative, then you please Him. So in this way, krishnanusilanam, that is our duty, anukulyena, anukula, not pratikula. There are two ways of acting, anukula and pratikula. If you act as I desire, that is anukula, and if you act what I don’t desire, that is pratikula. So Krishna consciousness must be anukula, according to the desire of Krishna, as it is confirmed by guru. That is anukula, favorable. And if you act whimsically, which Krishna does not desire or the guru does not desire, then it is pratikula. So anukulyena krishnanusilanam, that is bhakti.



    Post Prabhupada's words that support rejection of DVD, as you say to do. This is what to listen to, not me and not Mahaksa's words. Who's preaching is more pleaseing to Prabhupada? Negative diatribe or encourageing attempts? Jai Srila Prabhupada vani.


    All the above quotes are used to show your mood as wrong. Please counter with proff that rejection is the right understanding or surender to the idea, at least.


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja


    Oh you are offering to be my leader? Oh thank you! You fill me with such inspiration as you are obviously so loving and positive. My obeisances unto you oh king of bhakti.


    No, no offer from me. I have all the aversion I need in my life right now, thank you :) I'm mostly asking for quotes from Srila Prabhupada that support rejection of DVD. And the negative mood of your posts against DVD.


    Me? nooooooo..........not you at this point! Change and come back in a more willing spirit, then we will see. And test, equally.


    Have to go out for couple hrs, be back after artik.




    The above post says Bhavananda and you say Indian sannyasi. Were there 2 guilty people?


    Also, I'm surpised to hear that these kind of things happened as late as the early 90's. I thought the problems were mainly in the 80's and people learnt not to make those mistakes again.


    As regards forgiving, I agree that he should be forgiven but as you said, why continue as a sannyasi anymore. In that regard, I would like to ask a question ... if a sannyasi falls down, does that mean he is no longer qualified to live in the sannyasa ashram? Does he have to necessarily give it up?


    Fall down from a high place can have a very profound effect. Yes, the sannyasa in question would no longer be in that asrama. And as for the brahman varna? Do you agree to have as brahman as child molester? If so, I will live else where.


    Let him suffer fairly, grhastha asrama and lower varna. Plus it would have to be understood that his actions, even if still Vaisnava, would fall under the catigory of kanishta, not madhyam or uttama. No one should take intructions in God consciousness from him, it would then be as poison from the lips of a serpant.



    Instead of becoming a pseudo-transcendentalist for the sake of wanton living and sense enjoyment, it is far better to remain in one’s own business and execute the purpose of life, which is to get free from material bondage and enter into the kingdom of God. The prime svartha-gati, or goal of self-interest, is to reach Vishnu. The whole institution of varna and asrama is designed to help us reach this goal of life. A householder can also reach this destination by regulated service in Krishna consciousness. For self-realization, one can live a controlled life, as prescribed in the sastras, and continue carrying out his business without attachment, and in that way make progress. Such a sincere person who follows this method is far better situated than the false pretender who adopts show-bottle spiritualism to cheat the innocent public. A sincere sweeper in the street is far better than the charlatan meditator who meditates only for the sake of making a living.



    What do you think, as in deductive reasoning?


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

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