bhaktatraveler

Do you really think that I would be so sarcastic about myself? That doesn't mean I'm not low class, not by a long shot.

Hari bol, Bhakta Mortimer C. Beggar III

http://home.comcast.net/~linkman00/tv/Twilight_Zone.mp3

If you were jokeing then I'm laughing. It's the internet, I cann't see your eyes nor hear you voice. Whoops, I'm deef anyway. But I can look you in the eye, still. And read lips a little.

There is a point though, that this is for all that WILL it. But the Vaisnava will lead, as spiritual head of everyone. Srila Prabhupada.

CB-r

Srila Prabhupada is talking about society and varnasin society in general. These conversations have nothing to do with the demands he places on thise few that want a guru disciple relationship with him. Can you not see the difference?

 

Oh forget it. You think you have a mission so get on with it and we will see if there are any worthy results that follow.

When clearly ask, pointedly, 'WHERE' this will be done Prabhupada says in our centers. I haven't a problem with these words, you do. Read the purport below, if I'm lying, I'm dying.

Prabhupada repeated DVD for over 3yrs up the point of samadhi almost. The BG, SB is full of the same instructions talked about in these first ground braking instructions for introduction into ISKCON cosmology, in 1974.

SB 8.2.30

TRANSLATION

Thereafter, because of being pulled into the water and fighting for many long years, the elephant became diminished in his mental, physical and sensual strength. The crocodile, on the contrary, being an animal of the water, increased in enthusiasm, physical strength and sensual power.

PURPORT

In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with maya we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Krishna consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Krishna consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varnasrama—brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacarya, grihastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyasa.

asvamedham gavalambham

sannyasam pala-paitrikam

devarena sutotpattim

kalau panca vivarjayet

[Cc. Adi 17.164]

(Brahma-vaivarta Purana)

From this we can understand that in this age the sannyasa-asrama is forbidden because people are not strong. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed us an example in taking sannyasa at the age of twenty-four years, but even Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya advised Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to be extremely careful because He had taken sannyasa at an early age. For preaching we give young boys sannyasa, but actually it is being experienced that they are not fit for sannyasa. There is no harm, however, if one thinks that he is unfit for sannyasa; if he is very much agitated sexually, he should go to the asrama where sex is allowed, namely the grihastha-asrama. That one has been found to be very weak in one place does not mean that he should stop fighting the crocodile of maya. One should take shelter of the lotus feet of Krishna, as we shall see Gajendra do, and at the same time one can be a grihastha if he is satisfied with sexual indulgence. There is no need to give up the fight. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore recommended, sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. One may stay in whichever asrama is suitable for him; it is not essential that one take sannyasa. If one is sexually agitated, he can enter the grihastha-asrama. But one must continue fighting. For one who is not in a transcendental position, to take sannyasa artificially is not a very great credit. If sannyasa is not suitable, one may enter the grihastha-asrama and fight maya with great strength. But one should not give up the fighting and go away.

This would have stoped the Tamal take over, at the root(74) before it spread to a zoned-out acharya fiasco and throught he movement into the deep mire. DVD is the only way out. Ksatriya must lead all material activities of the movement and put the brahman varna up right.

Hare Krsna, Catrubahu das Bhakti-raja

So preaching big philosophy to neophytes who have no idea whats being spoken, and then going out and having a few beers is a no no?

 

http://home.comcast.net/~linkman00/tv/Twilight_Zone.mp3

You know, if that is how you want to proceed with your life and at the same time render vaiable service to the sankirtan/DVD movement, then I will find a sutible place for you. With your cooperation. Freely given.

I will engage Muslim, Vaisnava, Christian, Budhist, neofite, Jew, madhyam, utama, sannyasa, vaisya, brahman, cat, cow, oxen, homosex, chandala, cobbler, street sweeper, ksatriya, carpenter, cook, black smith, horse, riksha wala, 10th class dog......

Then way would I discriminate against you?

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Nothing can go bad if you just do as spiritual Father has said. No one did. Congregations in all centers refussed. The leaders, whom latter become Zoned-out were the same then as now. All bad.....

Not me, I knew DVD from BG. and Caitya Guru. Why not all of you too? You as a hole have fought with me for yrs on this subject, 34 in fact and counting. I have always had it right and am not a 'psychotic' as some in Alachua would say because I dared to chalenge(in writing on the internet) a female TP of all things.

Not kosher. DVD, DVD, DVD, DVD, DVD, DVD, DVD, DVD,

This is from two days before the first one I put up.

740312mw.vrn

Prabhupada: ...it will be constituted, that. Their business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they’ll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti... Unless they take to Krishna consciousness, they’ll not be saved. The varnasrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varnasrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brahmana; one class, kshatriya; one class, vaisya; and one class, sudra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the sudras.

Passerby: Jayo!

Prabhupada: Hare Krishna.

Bhagavan: Are sudras supposed to take sannyasa also?

Prabhupada: No, why?

Bhagavan: Sudras...

Prabhupada: Those who are sudras, they should not be allowed to take sannyasa. Only those who are qualified brahmanas, they’ll be allowed to take sannyasa.

Bhagavan: Kshatriyas used to take sannyasa too?

Prabhupada: Kshatriyas... Some of them. Not all.

Guru dasa: Yudhishthira Maharaja?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guru dasa: Yudhishthira Maharaja.

Prabhupada: They did not take sannyasa, but they left home. There is no need of accepting sannyasa. One has to perform the devotional activities. That is real thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve. Unless he takes to the, seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali-yuga, they’ll think, “Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big sannyasi.” You see? “Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a brahmana.” No. There must be regular training. Hare Krishna.

Jagadisa: Srila Prabhupada, in a varnasrama society is...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Jagadisa: In a varnasrama society, are most of the citizens sudras?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Jagadisa: Are the majority of citizens sudras? In a varnasrama society?

Prabhupada: Yes. The number of sudras are always bigger. Just like in University education. The, the number of graduates and post-graduates, they’re less. Others are big, number bigger.

Bhagavan: The whole idea is that at the end of everyone’s life, everyone is required to leave home, perform devotional activities, but not necessarily take sannyasa.

Prabhupada: Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leaves, that doesn’t matter. It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become brahmanas. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as kshatriya. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as vaisya. And the balance, they’re all sudras. This is the division. You... Everywhere you’ll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. (aside) Jaya. One class of men, fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, sudra. That’s all. So in our society, this division should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely. Everyone is engaged, not that eating and sleeping. Everyone must be engaged, employed. So, so if one is very much adapted for eating and sleeping, he should be engaged with plows. You see. He must be activity. Otherwise, there must be dysentery, eating and sleeping. He cannot digest. Yes. So in this way, our society should be managed. Not that “Give me second initiation, a sacred thread.” And after getting it, business finished: “Now I’m liberated. Let me eat and sleep.” This should be stopped. We have got fifty bighas of land, and I have calculated in Mayapura, setting aside twenty bighas for the temple and grazing ground for the cows, thirty bighas of land. The production should be three hundred mounds of grains. And three hundred mounds of grain, I have calculated. How much you can...?

Bhagavan: Fifteen hundred.

Prabhupada: No. According to our present calculated, about 180 mounds. So there should be 120 mounds excess of grain. Instead of excess, they want ten thousand rupees for maintenance. This is... This management is going on. These things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussion was there? Simply talking? No practical? And the estimate of budget was presented for ten thousand rupees per month. And... And when it was scrutinizingly studied, immediately it came down to six thousand. So what kind of budget? So management should be in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he’ll fall sick. Sickness means idleness. Or excess eating, sleeping. No excess, no less. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati duhkha-ha. Yukta. Yukta means actually what you need. (aside:) Hare Krishna. So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varnasrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely.

Hridayananda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation?

Prabhupada: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, sudra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Krishna. Krishna was acting as a kshatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaisya. But Krishna is neither kshatriya nor, nor brahmana. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaisya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kshatriya. He was marrying as a kshatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kshatriya, sometimes as vaisya, but He’s neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna...

Nitai: Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Nitai: What should the kshatriyas be taught?

Prabhupada: Kshatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must see that everyone is engaged. And if there is any fight, they must come forward to fight. This is kshatriya’s business. There may be fight. Somebody may attack us. Not that chanting, “Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna...” No. They must come forward. “Yes, we are prepared to fight.” That is kshatriya.

Lead, follow or get out of the way and let me do the job that is my service and varna.

CB-r

Quote:

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Theist

We must remeber however that that one need not follow these 4 as a prerequist to chanting Hare Krsna. There are no purificatory processes mandated before one can take up the name of Lord. If we want to be the disciple of a particular person like Srila Prabhupada then that is a different matter but we can be devotees (devotees lite) just no disciples of....

 

 

 

 

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"This is not quite proper with the new light shed on the situation. As long as one maintains the regulative principles of his varna, and remains in his proper ashram until it has its spiritual effect, they will get the perfection, so that means they are still under discipline, and thus a disciple."

 

"So the sudra eats meat once a month if they must. No disqualification. As long as it is done exactly as the Acharya authorizes."

 

 

 

Too much speculation. Do you have one example where Srila Prabhupada did not require a vow to follow the 4 regs. on the part of the aspirant who wanted to become his disciple? Can you sow me where he said even if they eat meat they are my disciples? I have never heard of such a thing. Why did he not tell the disciples that were sudras that they could eat meat once a month?

 

You are extrapolating from the varnashram conversation he had with some in Vrndavan and drawing conclusions that are not to be found there.

 

This spin of yours is a little dangerous if you cannot refine it more.

Conversation 3/14/74 Vrndavan

Hridayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hridayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

Hridayananda: But never the cow.

Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition.

Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, is this school for women also, or just for men?

Prabhupada: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home.

Satsvarupa: So they don’t attend varnasrama college.

Prabhupada: No, no. Varnasrama college especially meant for the brahmana, kshatriya and vaisya. Those who are not fit for education, they are sudras. That’s all. Or those who are reluctant to take education—sudra means. That’s all. They should assist the higher class.

Hridayananda: Would the brahmanas learn Sanskrit?

Prabhupada: Eh? Not necessarily.

Hridayananda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy.

Prabhupada: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why?

Hridayananda: Not necessary. So in this varnasrama college there would be two divisions, varna and asr... Learning a materia...

Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama, then, when the varna is perfectly in order, then asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varna is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they’re on the animals. If varna is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varna is working perfectly, then we give them asrama. Varnasrama. That is later on.

Hridayananda: First they should be taught a skill.

Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varnas, there will be no question of unemployment.

Hridayananda: But from the very beginning there should be taught

Bhagavad-gita and...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hridayananda: From the very beginning we should teach Bhagavad-gita?

Prabhupada: Yes. But our, our position is that we are above varnasrama. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Krishna conscious men, we are above varnasrama. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody’s shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it... Just like a servant is doing. The master is, “Oh, you cannot do. Just see.” Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any varna and asrama. But we have to show these rascals. Just like Dhruva Maharaja. He, he was perfect Vaishnava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that, “Oh, I am now become Vaishnava. I cannot kill.” What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yakshas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything then the Yaksha-raja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that “You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yakshas. So you can take some benediction from me.” He said, “That’s all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Krishna. That’s all.” This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and, the Yaksha-raja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe. But he made that, “Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Krishna.” This is Vaishnava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Krishna. Similarly, even if we take to varnasrama, we do not belong to any... Just like Krishna says, maya srishtam. “I have inaugurated.” But Krishna has nothing to do with varnasrama. Similarly, if we act as varnasrama, still, we have nothing to do with the varnasrama.

Hridayananda: Prabhupada, can you say something about the training for a brahmana.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are satyam samah damah. He must be truthful, he must control the senses, control the mind... samo damah,... He must be tolerant. He should not be agitated in trifle matters. Satyam samo damah saucam. He must be always clean. Three times he must take bath at least. All the clothing, all, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Krishna. This is brahmana.

Hridayananda: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in?

Prabhupada: They’ll be teaching. They’ll be all teachers.

Hridayananda: Oh, they’ll be teachers.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Dronacarya. He was brahmana, but he was teaching military art to the Pandavas. General teacher class will be the brahmanas. It doesn’t matter what he’s teaching. But teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna’s fighting was due to Dronacarya. He learned it from Dronacarya. He was a brahmana. But because he took the position of a teacher, he thought very perfectly. A brahmana should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he’ll become teacher. This is brahmana.

Hridayananda: So brahmana can teach how to fight?

Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmana means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything.

Satsvarupa: This is all very new.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Satsvarupa: This is very new. It seems there’ll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school.

Prabhupada: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult?

Satsvarupa: Yes, we have to... No, we have to learn, though.

Prabhupada: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop the floor.

Satsvarupa: Then it becomes easy.

Prabhupada: But I must know everything because I am a teacher.

Hridayananda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varnasrama, say, the first teacher at the varnasrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to...

Prabhupada: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varnasrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.

Vishnujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brahmanas that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Vishnujana: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well.

Prabhupada: Yes. That’s right. He is brahmana, but he’s teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing.

Hridayananda: It’s not that one teacher has to teach everything.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hridayananda: Oh, I see. So a brahmana teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hridayananda: Oh. It’s very exciting, Prabhupada, because all the, at the present time in the...

Prabhupada: No, the thing is that actually, at the present moment, they are sudras or less than sudras. They are not human beings. The whole population of the world. It doesn’t matter whether it is western or eastern. That is the position. So unless they are trained up, so the society’s already in chaos, and it will go on still more in chaos, chaos. It will be hell. How people will live? And these rascals are being elected as government men, and they’re only making budget how to tax. So one side, there is no rain; one side, there is no rice, especially in India; and one side, heavy tax. So they’ll be all confused. They have already become confused. So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Krishna conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given.

Vishnujana: Preliminary.

Prabhupada: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion.

Otherwise, how the brain will work?

Vishnujana: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Krishna consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they’ll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Krishna consciousness. And this is the method—varnasrama.

Hridayananda: So just to clarify, Prabhupada, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnasrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gita and then, side by side, they learn a...

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

Hridayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: But if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you’ll find, the kshatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That’s all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, “Oh, the ruler is very strong.” And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. “Kill him.” That’s all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

Yaduvara: How would the kshatriyas kill the animals?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow?

Prabhupada: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kshatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, parivraja, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... Or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine. If it is available. If somebody criticizes, “Oh, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on leg and you are travelling in the jet plane?” Shall I have to take that ideal? These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That’s all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and... So why should I not take it? It will be recorded. It will be heard by so many others. I am speaking to four, five men. It can be heard by a big crowd of four hundred men.

I only asked about prabhupadanuga because I haven't heard the acharya used with 'anuga' by other maths. Not all Srila Swami Maharaj disciples refer to it like that either, so I just wanted clarification. Of course the parampara starts with your Gurudeva, but in SCSMath it is taught we are in the Rupanuga Sampradaya, never "Sridharnuga" or "Govindanuga". Just different semantics I guess.

I think semantics too, same same. Useing anuga as suffex is new to post samadhi of Srila Prabhupada to diffentiate from one mind set to another within Prabhupada's disfuntional familty of followers.

Hare Krsna,

CB-r

It would be nice to have direct quotes if possible. Please make them as possible to understand the context in which they are said as well.

Going to the temple zoo w/daughter, see you later. It will take a little time to look for the notes or find fresh on the folio. After the temple, I will do it.

Hare Krsna, CB-r

But the dogs of the dogs are really dogs of Srila Rupa Goswami. So to really be Prabhupada's dog one must become a Rupanuga. If your clueless on the subject then try to get some help. Not from someone who just intellectually knows the subject but rather one who has dived deep into it's essence.

So as Srila Prabhupada is my current example/connection and leader in this matter, then I will do as He says. It must be that I'm just not ready for more than acting in DVD as an enthusiastic participant. Reading Prabhupada's books and acting on content as much as possible.

Rupanuga realization, after life times. DVD is all for me and others now. First practice, then the purfection. Vaisnava is not so easy.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Hare Krsna Prabhu

 

This is very detailed information. Sounds about right from my intuition of a Vedic society regulated by goodness.

 

Is this info from the Books, or can we only find this from his Conversations and or Lectures?

Both, but mostly conversations.

Hare Krsna, CB-r

I am specificly asking for permission to use quotes from Srila Prabhupada to refute 4 reg's as we now now it. You have deleted me every time I have posted in the past so just please tell me one way or an other if it is OK. I will not post other wise on this thread. And I do disagree, as said.

Thank you Moderator, Hare krsna. Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Can someone define prabhupadanuga for me? Are you no longer rupanuga? I mean no offense, I just don't know how to take that.

What do I know of Rupanuga? I only know Srila Prabhupada because I'm a Western animal that has been introduced to Vaisnava through Prabhupada. I only try to know what my Guru will allow me to. If He says about Srila Rupanuga and I do not understand, then? I only can say as my Prabhupada says on this subject, DVD. I do not know Rupanuga, I am only Prabhupada's dog and not aloud out.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Well its not going to implemented in my family without force. My family members and associates like to chant and dance at the Sunday Feast and act like regular members of Western society during the remainder of the week. It's been going on like this for twenty years. Families are being dominated by "New Age" devotee women. If you put your foot down you end up arrested for domestic violence. Then you are politically re-educated through mainstream psychology. Not a pretty picture!

Yes, this is an ugly picture, but it can be saved with redirecting free will. But I know the responce and I aqueous and say that for those types discribed here, DVD will only come through a type of armagedon(collapse of society as we know it) or fully funded. I hope for you and yours sake it is fully funded.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Satsvarupa: When Ramananda Raya brought Varnasrama up, Lord Caitanya said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupada: He did not say not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the world. That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane.

Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitaù. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

 

 

those of us who have heard from Srila Prabhuapda have had the Acharya come, he has told us that this is required, now it is up to us to implement it, at home with our family. while also chanting and dancing.

 

 

'WELL POSTED', Bk Chris.

You should be ashamed to call yourself Prabhupadanuga, Begger, Your aversion and unwillingness shows in the repeating of weak aguements against introduction of DVD now.

If your not prabhupadanuga then you can say as you like, of course you 'can' say any time. Every one is free! As long as it is in such a negative vene, I will just ignor it next time if you are not for us Gaudiya's.

But I only agree you can say outside of Gaudiya from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur with 'NO" comment from me. Otherwise you please excuse me, but I must protest.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Hare Krsna All

I see interest has stopped. Thank you for the opportunity to post on the most important subject of our times. DVD!

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Hare Krsna Bk Devarsi

This goes for women in those varnas too, they will do as there husbands. All women are to be married. Even if a co-wife. Giving birth is also synonymous with marrage. Then the son/daughter will follow the same life style.

All dedicated and inter laced with Bhakti-yoga activities.

Seems to me that Srila Prabhupada said there is no perfect love in the material world. But the love of the mother for her son is as close as it gets.

So both female and male get that chance to have a glimpse of perfect love, no dicrimination by sex. But marriage and procreation must be there.

Also sudra men will marry earlier than other varnas. By 18. whereas the three higher will/should wait until more mature, in 20's.

All women varnas marry by 18. No earlier than 16 I would suggest. Marriage meaning cohabitation. Betrothal/arrangement/engagement could/should be as early as pubery for female.

Cmments?

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Hare Krsna Prabhu

I saw that some brothers have published a booklet on DVD. The name is Make Vrndavana Villages. I do not know of this Bhakti Ragava Swami.

Has anyone seen this book and read the contents? If so could you please comment?

Hare Krsna CB-r

Hare Krsna Anadi

Srila Prabhupada told us(ISKCON) to take up this DVD, you do not have to do nor agree. I do. And others on this form too. THAT IS ALL. Order is given.

You are interjecting in a family discusion and not minding your manners. Babaji's will love your arguements. We care not, we are for Prabhupada. And He says to do.

You are more than wellcome to join the family though.

Hare Krsna Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Excellent conversation.

 

It all seemed straightforward and clear to me.

 

I especially note at the very end where Srila Prabhupada says.

 

 

Especially note the phrase "therefore falling down". He uses this to describe what is happening as a result of what he indicates in the statement just prior...that we were trying the impossible...

 

to bring him IMMEDIATELY to the platform of brahmana OR Vaisnava.

 

So the SOLUTION?

 

A SYSTEM.

 

Therefore system MUST BE.

 

And for any detractors that believe a system will somehow mundanely taint and thus prevent a person dominated by tamo guna from being engaged and steadily advancing in devotional service he ends saying.

 

"But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava."

 

And this steals the show.

 

Even if he remains a sudra. So why would someone remain a sudra? If they are a Vaisnava, why not display the modes of goodness all throughout the day? Some may ask. But that would show lack of understanding of the deep relation of being a sudra to the mode of ignorance. But even so, a sudra is qualified to be a Vaisnava if he cooperates.

 

This does not contradict his original chastisement not to bring the person up to Vaisnava immediately, because he mentioned the words brahmana or Vaisnava in that regard, indicating that Generally, a neophyte Vaisnava who actually becomes qualified as a Brahmana would generally be considered a more advanced Vaisnava than a Sudra who "remains" a sudra even after years of exposure and opportunites to act in managerial roles, or more priestly functions. Remembering that advanced devotees are considered to be "fully conversant" in the scriptures and the science of Krsna Consciousness.

 

So DVD boils down to this. Ok, we are neophytes and solid at that, but now the fire of cooperation with high ideals and flawed personalities, and that being the only way to make real advancement from here, leaving the sahajya behind, I hold Madhyama adhikari above my head the way Srila Sridhara Maharaja holds Vraja Dhama above his.

 

All Glories to Vaisnava Sanga

You da man Bk Devarsi! you da man! Is anyone else out there? Opportunity is knocking:)

CB-r

So still at work and don't have much time to read through this to find who is a bona fide Ksatrya per Srila Swami Maharaj , but for those who had their varna identified by Him or other exalted Vaisnavas, maybe you can share the experience, what was said, the context etc. That would be interesting and nourishing to hear.

It's a little beyond the web to go indepth. The short story is simple. As a sankirtam devotee for the first 2 yrs on the road I have run at times from temple to temple. 5 times I was at a temple Srila Prabhupada was at. Each time I was armed and stood personal guard to Prabhupada.

The last time in Detroit, summer 76, I was on a sankirtan party with Dhira Krsna das. I broke off as before and stood guard at the door. I did not like this service of the pick. I went to Srila Prabhupada to get permision to have a different engagement, I hated the pick, not my style. I just want to slap them and take the wallet.

We talked about the different things we did on the party as part of our activites. If chanting was going on and like that. He asked if we were passing out books and I told Him that the leader was so cheap that we had to collect a rediculous amount just to give a BTG. Prabhupada was not happy. And that we handed out Tootsie rolls, He asked if the karmi's liked it. I said yes they did. Prabhupada made no other comment about the candy. This was also when I had the grace from Srila Prabhupada to understand the ends justifing the means.

Then he asked what I wanted to do. I simply said what I was doing then, guarding you Srila Prabhupada. This now goes the next step to exchange from heart to heart. Beyond subtle or gross embodiment. Prabhupada entered my heart as I opened up to Him. He actually rumaged arould in all the corrners, leaving nothing hidden. I was as Hanuman opened up to Rama. We came back to the material consciousness and he said you are ksatriya. No drama. Very matter of fact. As this was a private meet only Pusta Krsna was in the room looking out the window in his own world. Pusta Krsna left Prabhupada's company soon after.

That night from about 11:00 PM I started to get feverish. Sometime after 1:00 AM I pasted out in the door way with a gun in one hand and my bead bag in the other, the doorway to Srila Prabhupada's room is about 2 1/2 feet wide. I blocked the door with my body so no one could come or go and lost consciousness. Next thing I know Srila Prabhupada is standing there with His door open telling one of the sannyasi' to get up and give me his bed. By the time I came to everyone was gone to the airport. I was heart broke and confused. But Prabhupada had changed something in me that immediately took hold and acted, almost as if a growth was planted. I have been riding that wave for 31 yrs this summer.

Thats the simple.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Yeah, I know, it said it after reading what Caturbahu dasa posted after reading it. After he said..

 

"This is not how DAIVI varnasrama-dharma will work for vaisnava."

 

And then went on to ammend that a bit saying.

 

"Though to just arbitrarally through out, we also can not do. So in this case i would say that the purport is applied multi level. Some varna at times, next time no varna."

 

So that made me read that purport more closely, and I came up with what I did, for the sake of discussing your original question, curve ball or not, I thought I would just play along and consider what was coming down the pike.

 

Of course you posted that purport after Caturbahu dasa answered your fourfould question posed like this.

 

1. Are they in the four varnas, or outside them?

2. If outside, why?

3. What responsibilities do they have?

4. What is the difference from a man's roles?

 

And his answer was.

 

 

 

So in relation to where the conversation was most previously coming from, it seemed CB saw that purport as possibly contradicting his position, but then got real flexible and saw the acintya there.

 

I just expounded a bit on what he already saw, and thought that in our case he is right that all get the opportunity, but we need to be realistic about where we are materially in order to make the most rapid spiritual advancement in a Personalistic community, and Queen Kunti devi's example is exemplar in this regard.

 

I am noticing just now, how deep that purport is, like a multifaceted jewel cut so nicely, you can enjoy it from any angle, and there is even activity deep in its center.

 

Wow, Hare Krsna

 

 

BD

Honestly I'm still digesting it all. I was doing prasadam and house hold mania form kids sake. But you know, you and I will have to PM for a week to have a concenses. This, as you say, is a very deep purport, we might need to go under ground.

The idea of mixing varnasrama with spiritual advancement comes to mind. I think one(VAD) is over ruled by the other(Daivi). Anyone?

CONV. 2/14/77

Prabhupada; Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krishna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krishna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

BD Prabhu, the first paragraph fits me to a "T" and the second is the story of my failed marriage (I took the selfish route). Let me take this opportunity to honor you and your realization.

 

Just now getting back to the office from my son's first school play, its nice to see the direction this discussion has taken (with the occasional fits and starts along the way).

 

Caturbahu Prabhu Bhakti-raja, you seem to exhibit the playful (and boasting) mood of Lord Balaram. As I said, I'm not qualified to judge your capacity, despite the impression of you that has formed in my mind. Perhaps you are a born Ksatriya.

 

While, as a former pupil of Keshava Prabhu (only a class or two, but...), I can't share your view of him, though it's certainly interesting. I would attribute his supposed lack of discernment as to the natures of others to be due to his realized nature--perhaps he is seeing Krishna in the hearts of all.

 

My memory is poor, but I will certainly convey your regards (was it regards, or was I simply to mention you?) to the Senior Vaishnavas in my community. Sadly, I don't associate with them as frequently and to the degree that would be for my benefit.

 

Dina Doyal!!!!

Tell Sruts and Sanatani didi that I send hugs and kisses. Especially I miss the Saturday competitons. There are to many to mention but I know most of the old timers. They all have my warm regards. Oh, Jagadananda too. Is Rasangi there? Her too. All warm regards.

Yes, you do have me peged with My Lord Balarama. I should probably tone it down a couple tics. It is just to make a point sometimes.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

http://www.vedabase.net/tqk/5/en1

 

Here is a mention of women and sudras from Srila Swami Maharaja's purports in Srimad Bhagavatam, probably where I last read it. Just for reference:

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Queen Kunti

Here are some of the specific symbolical marks on the spiritual body of the Personality of Godhead which distinguishes His body from the bodies of all others. They are all special features of the body of the Lord. The Lord may appear as one of us, but He is always distinct by His specific bodily features. Srimati Kunti claims herself unfit to see the Lord because of her being a woman. This is claimed because women, sudras (the laborer class), and the dvija-bandhus, or the wretched descendants of the higher three classes, are unfit by intelligence to understand transcendental subject matter concerning the spiritual name, fame, attributes, forms, etc., of the Supreme Absolute Truth. Such persons, although they are unfit to enter into the spiritual affairs of the Lord, can see Him as the arca-vigraha, who descends on the material world just to distribute favors to the fallen souls, including the above-mentioned women, sudras, and dvija-bandhus. Because such fallen souls cannot see anything beyond matter, the Lord condescends to enter into each and every one of the innumerable universes as the Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, who grows a lotus stem from the lotuslike depression in the center of His transcendental abdomen, and thus Brahma, the first living being in the universe, is born.

Hare Krsna

This is not how DAIVI varnasrama-dharma will work for vaisnava. For spiritual life we see no varna distinction, all will get the same opportunity as the next prabhu, man, woman, or child, equally. We are not these varnas when we speak in strictly spiritual terms. This DVD is for MANAGEMENT of material affairs of ISKCON. All spiritual advancement is equally distributed. No distinctions.

Though to just arbitrarally through out, we also can not do. So in this case i would say that the purport is applied multi level. Some varna at times, next time no varma.

Hare Krsna, CB-r

!

Fixing offering, slow down a bit please.

CB-r

But we were asked to ask questions.

Yes, just now coming. I'm guiding children(14,16,17) to do, and am on line at same time.

CB-r

I'm not trying to set anyone up It is a simple question. How do I explain it concisely to someone? What is a woman's role in varnashrama?

 

So here are some more just to get you started:

 

Are they in the four varnas, or outside them?

If outside, why?

What responsibilities do they have?

What is the difference from a man's roles?

 

I don't know how you guys actually think my question is bad. It is simple and honest and if that is a curveball for you then good luck.

No curve ball

First woman have varna just like men. How else will we be able to marry a woman of like mind? And Prabhupada calls a mixed marriage such, if husband and wife are of different varna. Not good at all. The best is same varna, next down is if the husband is higher varna, then tragedy is if woman is higher varna.

Within varna sexes will have a little differing roles. Ksatriya women would learn as the men, but in private. In other words she would know martial arts but learn this at home or similar venue. More of this is in the Mahabharta.

She would never take the throne under any circumstance....

SB 10/4/5 purport

"Here we see that Devaki first focused Kamsa’s attention on his atrocious activities, his killing of her many sons. Then she wanted to compromise with him by saying that whatever he had done was not his fault, but was ordained by destiny. Then she appealed to him to give her the daughter as a gift. Devaki was the daughter of a kshatriya and knew how to play the political game. In politics there are different methods of achieving success: first repression (dama), then compromise (sama), and then asking for a gift (dana). Devaki first adopted the policy of repression by directly attacking Kamsa for having cruelly, atrociously killed her babies. Then she compromised by saying that this was not his fault, and then she begged for a gift. As we learn from the history of the Mahabharata, or “Greater India,” the wives and daughters of the ruling class, the kshatriyas, knew the political game, but we never find that a woman was given the post of chief executive. This is in accordance with the injunctions of Manu-samhita, but unfortunately Manu-samhita is now being insulted, and the Aryans, the members of Vedic society, cannot do anything. Such is the nature of Kali-yuga."

Is this OK? to start.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja