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Posts posted by bhaktatraveler


    Is using such hypothetically imagined scenarios a true way to guage what Caturbahu das' capacity for intelligently answering such a question is?


    We are not "in the field". That context, the person's inner nature and other subtleties about their personality, their body movement, their level of interest reflecting in their eyes, the horns from the near fender bender a block away that make you pause your conversation, that is all intangible in your questioning so broad a topic in a hypothetical way over the internet.


    In other words, as CB often points out this medium has vast limitations and here we see one, better for sifting out hard facts of history, who said what and where, etc.


    As for the "role of women in Varnasrama, one could write a book on it. As a matter of fact in a way someone has. It is called the Srimad Bhagavatam by A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami.


    Like I have been suggested for those truly interested in the material, and not just trying to set up Caturbahu dasa to look less knowledgable than he is, just read the books, and observe life unfold around you, and apply the conceptual knowledge from the books (jnana) to what you observe and then you will realize (vijnana) the truth about it.


    And of course living among other devotees who devote some time to understanding this particular purpose of the Krsna Consciousness Movement can only accelerate this process and bring more pleasure to Srila Prabhupada. That is living in the field.


    Hare Krsna


    What he said:)




    ok, in Srimad Bhagavatam purports, Srila Swami Maharaj often says 'like a woman or sudhra'. Can you speak of the role of women in the varna system and where they fit in?





    What would be the context, in more detail?


    I can only say as Srila Prabhupada says, is there a more particular item? Like schooling?


    No varnasrama college for women. This can be explain numerous ways. With and without a REAL functioning community to support Prabhupada's conclusion.


    No freedom for either, needs to be now. Women are to be protected by a man, father, husband, brother, son, or some male family menber. I'm sure you have many comments:) so I will wait for you to prompt.


    Childrens part is to grow up God conscious and educated.


    This is just to start going into detail, by your choise. You choose where to go deeper.


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das


    Sure, let's talk particle physics while we're at it (so, the name-calling part is over then?).


    Anyways, my apologies for taking up so much bandwidth in this public discussion (if you wanted a private discussion, go have a private discussion, but there is no need to tell me to go away and think). Kindly *do* go back to a nice, philosophical discussion on pertinent matters.


    I'll slink back into my dungeon and view with wonder your great insights. The very slight point I wished to make about DVD being a by-product of KC and not the source of it has been made, embraced, rebuked, etc.


    Please honor me with your chastisement if you so desire, or ignore me as the contemptible dog that I am.


    Govinda!!!! Govinda!!! Govinda!!!


    I'm not sure if you are joking or frustrated, or? I would like to tread softly but am at a loss.




    Sorry Prabhus to be so impertinent, but I see little evidence of the presence of any Ksatriyas in this discussion (you cannot deny that you are a Brahmana, Brajeshwara Prabhu). Is a Vaishnava Ksatriya not one who remains equipoised under any circumstances?


    Karandhar Prabhu's brother Keshava comes to mind when I think of contemporary Ksatriyas. While being a highly trained martial artist who could, no doubt kill anyone in this discussion with a single blow, I have never seen Keshava Prabhu lose his composure. He has always remained patient, calm, and gentlemanly in my (limited) vision.


    Is it not safe to say that all in this discussion are but spiritual toddlers (of course, I cannot say this definitively as I have no position)? If we cannot, as Prabhu reminds us, follow "tinad api sunichena..." and be humble, tolerant and give honor to others, there is no question of DVD. We cannot run until we can walk.


    I claim no authority, or qualification. The only thing I have claimed to be in this discussion is a sense-enjoyer. Let me now claim to be a mlecca and an offender to the Vaishnavas. Still, I have been blessed with more good fortune than I could earn in a million life-times.


    Srila Prabhupad gave so much instruction in such a short period of time. The intensity with which he distributed the mercy of Chaitanyadev leaves all in awe. We toddlers cannot hope to follow his way-beyond-PhD. theses without patient, loving instruction.




    I have been in one rumble side by side with Kesava das. He has good ability. But he lacks intelegence for fine discrimination. He can not tell a right thing from a wrong thing and always in the old days was unable to see clearly who was who. Good, bad, or the other. More sudra to the ksatriya, like a guard or soldier.


    Raksana from LA is an other example in the same vein, as he told me face to face, 'I am not a ksatriya, just a street fighter' Neither has he management ablilities. I out managed Raksana in 4 hours and replaced him as Sankirtan Central manager. My first day out of the Army back in LA. He, nor Kesava have recquisit inteligence.


    I see the biggest thing is while you were all playing at being brahmans, I was doing the same as ksatriya. I have seen very little evidence of good understanding of this varna. So you will excuse me if I listen to Prabhupada's take and not you.


    Think of a 'father' in greater scale and responsibility and that's just rudimentry. Fighting like we see the in the discriptions of ksatriyas in our books it is part, not all of the varna. Your missing the intellect. To dumb to know what to do at any given time, is not ksatriya.


    No one is really lossing it here, it is all just interactive TV. We are just trying to make good use of a bad thing. Don't take it so serious in such a way as to assume any vaisnava aparadha is going on just because disagrement is there. Just trying to work out the high spots. No love has been lost on my part at least. This is no place to demand varna recognition nor is it good to fane a pretence of varna determination, other than what little we write each other.


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja


    That was you, Prabhu. And I am in agreement if I understand you correctly (in your words): that just be reading and hearing, then observing yourself introspectively and the symptoms of others, we will all know what to do.

    ;)) is best to determine the varna, along with a system of organization for voluntary service to make sure everyone feels engaged in their particular varna.


    My main concern and reason for all my arguing is the potential for material exploitation of sincere devotees by insincere pseudo-devotees in higher varna positions. We all know this has happened much in the past and pseudo-DVD could enable abuse. I hope you understand.




    YES, YES, YES, you do get it!!!! Yes, we are to always be vigilant, do not give up free will 100% to a conditioned soul. 'As they serender unto Me, I reward them accordingly' even Krsna is constantly testing a thing, but being ready, willing and able to respond in kind though. So we need to be fexible, vigilent and willing too.


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja


    First re-establish large farm communities that are self-sufficient and with cow protection. Then DVD will develop from there.


    Would be doable with money. I know where 5 sq. miles of land is in the Southeast, one big semi square piece. Room enough for 10,000 devotees. $100,000,000 should do the trick for purchace and development. LOL


    But no money, rebuild the surrendering prosess in the now current city temples. When Prabhupada gave the DVD instructions, there were no farms. To speak of.


    I am very good at street sankirtan management and would, with the help of city vaisya types, get money for books. Book distribution is trade, vaisya. Here in Alachua are some of the biggest and best ladies collectors on the planet. But they are missmanaged. Give me 6 and you will have money.


    I had a talk at the Charter school once about DVD and Sukada dasi was listening. She is my old friend from first days together in 74, Miami. When I got to the part of book distribution and collecting, she giggled like a 13 yr old school girl and jumped up and down waving her hand saying 'that's me, that's me.' I did not have to impose anything on her. She knew herself well enough to be excited when her service was spoke about. But she is in that rejectable school, mismanaged.


    Ask Srutasrava who always won the transendental compition on Saturday in New Dwarka? Ask Mayapura Sasi if 78 is still the biggest year for collections and books distributed in LA history. Ask Sanatani if the ladies were ever treated as anything less then decorum stipulates.


    In our centers, now.


    Hare Krsna, CB-R


    Not to defeat Guru's order, but the poster's comprehension of the order, which all should do when hearing from others. "Does this prabhu understand correctly or not?" Otherwise we may be misguided.


    I'm not looking for your flaws Prabhu. Just seeing if you have anything more to offer on this besides vague statements like "I keep saying the preaching to convince compliance." What is compliance? What did Srila Swami Maharaj say would be compliance? If you want a system in place where someone gets a 'nametag' so all will know their varna and then assigned duties accordingly, please describe how that would work and who would determine the varna. That's all. Otherwise what is the point in discussing this further? All agree it would be a good thing just again HOW?


    And making blanket statements that some of the people in the discussion are idiots is offensive to me because we should try and see others as devotees. Not idiots. And it stifles the conversation and turns into false-ego bickering.


    And my comment about pratishta applies to me most of all, lest I get carried away in thinking I am right and others are all wrong. My points are flawed and I'm just working out my understanding of DVD here in this forum, if I have fundamental misunderstandings I hope to adjust them. The pratistha comment wasn't directed at anyone specifically but if anyone feels it applies to them, as it applies to me personally, I hope it is taken into consideration in further posts.



    I must have missed where 'I' said 'idiot' first. Did I? Please show the post, so I can be aware.


    YOU tell me what compliance is. I have an idea, but like the repeated question of 'who' discides varna, you miss any point I make and sound like I've said nothing. Rejecting practiclly even the fact that I posted a responce.


    How many times will we go over 'who' determins varna? It isn't answered?


    Hare Krsna, CB-R


    I have to agree with you theist, I don't want to say it really but it should be said because this is a danger to us all. The desire for pratishta is very dangerous and we can see that cracks like 'surfer boy' and 'idiot' are meant to demean and put down, and therefore elevate the poster. But it does exactly the opposite, it degrades their arguments and lessens the respect for their position. It reveals their position actually.


    Please forgive my offenses, all glories to the devotees everywhere.


    In YOUR mind it degrades the arguement, because you are using the posters character to defeat the order of Guru. That I'm not a preacher is AGAIN ADMITED.


    So you big brahmans stand up and PREACH as guru has said to do instead of looking for my flaws, which are endless and a full time job. You haven't the time. Stay on the topic, idea exchange and if something I have said is veg then point it out in detail, not blanket rejection. Chiding from on high.


    You keep asking what is next, I keep saying the preaching to convince compliance. What else are you looking for? Your ask for me to cook subji but you give me no ingredience!! I see this as forced speculation from you.


    There is no other meaningful answer to a speculative question.


    As for the 'surfer boy' crack, it is just that, a poke/crack. Do you have a problem with reverce chiding? I have to take it but not give? I never said, to my knowledge, that Theist(?) was an 'idiot' did I? So now you have added a 'crack'.


    So where to go?


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja


    Prabhu ... I'm disappointed with what you said below, I expected better from you.


    Did you scrutinize every single devotee within ISKCON? If not, how do you know? I dont understand why you make such statements.


    Give a little prabhu, it is a general statement. Not ment to insite riot from like minded souls. It is expected that exception to a rule will be common. He is making a point of the GENERAL condition. Not that nice exceptional, individual, vaisya/madhyam that always funtions and follows the rules and regulations of vaisya.


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja


    Srila Narayana Maharaja has always organized the devotees under him as brahmacharies, sannyasis, vanaprasthas and grhastas. At the time of diksa he has always given the sacred thread to males. These things are all daiva-varnasrama dharma as established by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and are followed by all of those claiming to represent him. The babaji class all opposed these revolutionary changes and aligned themselves with the smartas to fight against and try to suppress Srila Saraswati Thakur's reforms and preaching mission. It was also Srila Saraswati Thakur who began to refer to his disciples as prabhu and began referring to them in letters as Sriman and Sripad depending on their age. These things are all historical facts and well known. You are trying to play the NM card to justify your attacks against both Srila Prabhupadas. Divide and conquer. But the devotees on this forum especially the so-called DVD proponents may not be so aware of all these issues and the history but they naturally see through as to your real intention.


    Here, here Shakti-fan. Though Anandi is right about NM previous rejection of over all implimentation of DVD. I do commend NM's coming around finally, better late than never. Though, better never late is another thing.


    You are also right about asrama recognition by NM. And you are VERY right of the mood of Anadi to beat up on our sampradaya from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur on, automatic disqualification is THIS Gaudiya circle.


    I would live at the feet of NM, life time after life time, before I went back to those Babji's asramas. And kill my little, frail creepper.


    Hare Krsna, CB-R


    Your response was no answer. Just more of the same vagueries. No specifics which is why many of us here have no idea what you two are trying to say beyond the obvious benefit of a DVD system which is not disputed.


    Then you say Guru and Supersoul are diversionary. The diversion is clearly what you are engaged in. All that is needed is the holy name. You want to inspire your Isckon friends? That is only to be done by hearing and chanting under the protective wings of proper advance vaisnavas. Not on imagining yourself and a couple buddies to be disciples of Dronacarya come again to rescue the mission. Clearly you are a fool on a head trip and I am done talking to you.


    The surfer boy crack was really weird since I have never been on a board in my life. I would have loved growing up surfing as a kid but alas, my karma was not that good. I have done some body surfering though @ Maakapu. Great fun and a great workout.


    I have no doubt my false ego shows as this is the material world and all here are bound by ahankara. What's new? BTW what keeps you hanging around the material field if not your own false ego? Or do you remain out of your causeless mercy to re-establish DVD? Awesome task the Lord has given you.


    "Do you have a real name? Or am I taking to air? "


    You ask for a name. Do you think a name is the actual person or something. Things are not real until they have a material tag, right? Such is the thinking of those condtoned by the world of names. We need to grow beyond it. Talking to a temporary name is the same as talking to air. Are you asking if I really exist?


    Bye bye big warrior or however you think of yourself.


    Bye bye, Hare Krsna




    Dear Anadi,


    Thank you so much for correcting my use of the prefix Sriman. If indeed you are correct. You gave no scriptural backing for what you said, but it may be true so I guess I will have to look it up myself. I like to learn new things.


    And as for whatever else you may have wrote, I am sorry, but you immediately started to define Bhakti narrowly as Suddha Bhakti, and there again was immediately my proof that you have a smarta mentality, and you should just reread what I wrote to you again, and then go back to school, read the Bhagavad gita as it is, 1972 macmillan edition, with no rascal changes.


    You simply need to get to the point where you can see that the person who responds in even the smallest way to a preaching Acarya and hears and chants abit, then goes back to their occupation in the modes is engaged in BHAKTI. Then maybe we could have a conversation in the future. Otherwise your mind is lost swimming in an ocean of intellectual concepts, while your heart seems blinded by smarta attitude.


    This is especially telling when you say things like Srila Prabhupada was preaching against DVD when he first came to the west. That shows your lack of knowledge of his preaching and what he wrote. My god, he gave direct instructions in his Dehli Bhagavatam first canto from the early 60's that DVD was part of the Krsna Consciounsess movement.


    But I know you will recover quickly.


    Hare Krsna









    Thanks Bk Devarsi, well said. I was just ignoring him. I know his Guru's mind and you will be hard pressed to reach the Radha Kunda Babji crowd.




    Hare Krsna Theist das


    One step at a time, just as any journey is taken.


    Step one is to introduce DVD idealogy. Brahman must/should preach this incessantly. I am not the preacher type by first choise, I do because I'm forced by circumstances. When we rid the atmosphere of the poison vani aversion, brainwashed rejection, than we will experience renewed enthusiasm to act.


    As action is freely offered/agree opon, then we have ingredients/consensus. With knowledge of the ingrediances as to the who's and what's of the community to surrender, then we have a field of activities. From willing activites surrendered to the cause of DVD the Ksatirya's duty can commence and he will lead.


    No ksatriya can tell what the 'plan' is unless he knows what he is working with. So many variables to take into account that it's 'fantasy' to demand an answer more than I have given.


    First though, preaching at the elemental/atomic level by brahamns will need to be done, from those whom claim brahminical standard. No one listens to me/ksatriyas. If brahman refuses to do so, I/ksatriya will not let him claim that varna in my air, I will call very loudly BS. I/ksatriya wants to manage/protect only. Brahman will teach/preach, I will manage, vaisya will produce, sudra will help other and develop crafts and other things that are this varna.


    All whom demand magic are just in the way. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. And any plan beyond the first preaching step, has to be based on speculation. So please in this mater, I would like to stay out of speculation and only deal with tangibles. On line is only good for a small exchange of ideas, only. Nothing tangible happens on line. I live in Alachua lets get together in person, then we will start. People, not air waves.



    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja




    You ask then do not respond when answered. First, you respond to my post here. Then I will again blow up your next strawman. Careful surfer boy, your ego and aversion/rejection are showing all over the place. Try for more support instead of arguements based on things that should be understood and taken for granted in the company of devotees.:) That Krsna, Supersoul and Guru are intregral in the devotees heart is taken for granted. It is a deversionary, strawman.


    Do you have a real name? Or am I taking to air?


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja


    hahahaha! i am not struggling with anything related to the 11 so called ritvik dudes! i was given a List by Tamal and i understand that the List is people not to go to for ANYTHING!


    I am just asking you (those who think the letter written by tamal on july9,77, is "authorized") what you will do now that Hansadhutta is callling himself a "ritvik representative of the acharya" he says that is his role on his website, so you (those who think the letter by tamal is authorized) should send your bhaktas to him for getting initiated to Prabhupada.


    Or Satsvarupa, he also is accepting sort of disciples in a ritvik fashion now.


    So there you go! Those 2 fell down, and fell down again, but now they fell up! So send all the bhaktas to them! ahahhahahahahahaha


    Hansadutta's site is down now, but he advertises himself as being a Ritvik, and since he is on the list written by tamal that got the 11 into that perfect faction, which lead to what we have now, and it is "authorized" by Prabhupada (not very likely) why are'nt you (who are so easily duped) following that order? Send all newbies to Hansadutta! (don't send them to anyone, tell them that the letter from july9th is a forgery or List, and you will be leading them properly, there is no need for it, Prabhupada will never be not present)


    Hare Krsna BK Chris


    Let me put it this way. Forgiveness is for everyone. But if a sannyasi has his hand in between the legs of a 12 yrs old then he will not be aloud to cheat and say 'sorry, I will be good'. NO:mad2: he has done this, now let him get married. And be sanctioned as is fit. Especially by the father and King!


    Same applies to ritvic, even more. We/I will never allow in my Kingdom/Temple this kind of cheating. No fallen ritvics are ever reinstated. NEVER. So it is addvised that we are careful whom we call representative of the Guru. The 11 are dead and buried, with stakes in their hearts. But I would support/protect their right to still chant the holy name in shame and seclution.


    As Srila Prabhupada gave conditions for the GBC to be replaced, I take these same conditions and simply apply to ritvic. These are not unconditional appointments for life, oversite/observance by Ksatriya/brahman is still there, always vigiant. Discresion is the better part of valor, what kind of King/TP turns a blind eye, or has not vision?


    The problem is now and alway was, the fallen condition of the CONGREGATIONS. Blind faith. No inteligent discrimination abilities. A very hard and bitter pill to swallow for the victims. But you did it to yourself!


    I saw, I tried, but who will listen to the new bhakta in 74? Still I try. Who will listen? One? Two? I hope to reach two thousand, TODAY. I love hunting the big stuff. LOL


    I have it said before, and I'll say it again. The 'list' is a list of shame on the CONGREGATION. The congregation chose by support and adherence to these monkeys. They were always to be replaced from 1974 on, when the first call to DVD was made then by Prabhupada, READ THE CONVERSATIONS. It was the congregation that continued to defy Guru. Guru worked with what was there. Those imfamous 11 were supported by you/members. The ritvic must be from the most addvanced section of devotees. You dummies accepted the 11 in that light in 74, never me. Never me, not in 74, not in 2007.


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja


    thanks for the nice reply. i guess some of us are quite mixed really. i have been a gun toting gun firing guy since i was 6 and my dad put the gun in my hand and helped me pull the trigger. i carry a conceiled weapon often, used to in mangala arotik when there were too many crazies, doing the crazy thing. so maybe i have the kaitri;ya thing going, and i care for cows, and have had my own corporation for 30 years, so maybe i am a vaisya, i know i am a sudra and melecha by some of my activities, including picking my nose for treats, but i have also kept clean and honest while serving the deity, so maybe sometimes i have the brahmana thing going a small bit.


    But i do know that Prabhupada taught us that there is no Varnashrama without the Cow. That is where it starts, that is where it stays, and that is where it continues, without the cow/ox, there is no Varnashrama. Atleast not a Daivi type, since we are supposed to be followers of a Cow Herd Boy.


    Hare Krsna Bk Chris


    I would think it quite 'natural' to be of mixed lot in your situation. But which varna atracks you most? Or the varna that you feel most proficiant at? Don't mind, it is just talk. And do your constituants concur?


    As for cows you have my ear, like I said we need to replace factories with cows as the production supplier in DVD. Be that as it may, we shouldn't forget Krsna was also a Ksatriya and after Matura, had pastime as such.


    The initial instruction from Srila Prabhupada was given when most all of the devotees were in cities. So we should not feel no organization of varna and asrama can happen until more farms appear. Farm life will be domanent, but there will always be some cities. That would be couter productive, we must start from a 'be here now' understanding. It would be imposible for thousands of devotees to run for the hills. Unless you know of millions sit around waiting for DVD? LOL Then......it would be easy, 'if you build it, they will come'


    Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja


    If it is so organic why do you need to be on a crusade to get everyone to see it your way.


    The approach I outlined is as organic as it gets...guru or Krsna within. Surely I am one of the idiots you spoke of because I don't hear you speaking clearly and concisely on whatever your point is.


    Your right, I'm not very good preacher type. But I did not address you with the above quote. So now I have little idea of what you intrest is.




    Hey, i just thought of something. Those of you who accept the letter written by tamal, that helped him by naming him and 10 others into the faction of zoned outs....................


    You still have hansadhutta to do your ritvik work for Prabhupada. So now you can distribute books and tell people that they can go out and see hansadhutta and maybe satsvarupa too (he has said that he does not mind that some of his disciples are "ritviks") so now everything is all perfect for you. Ofcourse you don't have 11 middle men, but you have 1 or 2.


    And since you guys all think that the letter written by tamal is "authorized" :deal: then you must accept hansadhutta and satsvarupa too right?



    I have head about you guys from my friend in NY, he says your inteligent, but I am amazed how you miss the concept of those first 11 being DISQUALIFED to represent Prabhupada now. So what you say is moot.


    Initiations by ritvic is all at this time nul and void, disfuntional movement can't initiate on behalf of guru. Nor should they install deities, I think Krsna is not there, link is broken. New functioning DVD movement, then new ritvic qualified person will show and be test over a long period of time. Then ritvic can happen. Much time to heal is needed.


    Hare Krsna, CB-R

  18. Hare Krsna Bk Chris,


    Always like to hear from the cowhead boys and I'm glade you have such a wonderful opportunity to live your varna. I also know, met on line and visited and anther cowhead boy near Buffalo, NY. in a small village called Angelic. Wonderful person, nice family, great cows, small place.


    Cows are to DVD, as factories are to the consumer ecconomy life now in the greater world. But remember DVD is 4 vanas and 4 asramas. If you have no natural person or imeadiate dying need, then that is another thing, practical must be there. And this is all pactice, we do what we can.


    I like every thing else, but if you reject the ksatriya varna you are rejecting Prabhupada.


    Every one is right in a particular perspective that DVD will happen spontainiously. Once acceptance is there, of all of it. Not selectivly.


    I to after so many yrs of testing and looking for an embodied brahman have forever surrendered to Srila Prabhupada as the only quentessential brahman first and formost for me. But I'm still on the look out for brahmans, they are need. I do not reject their right to have varna, with all it's implications, just because of my personal beliefs. That's not right!


    Hare Krsna, CB-R


    Would the official body have to accept, or could they reject the decision of the devotee?




    Acceptance or rejection should be on valid/honest/tested/scripturally based/doubble tested grounds, one way or another. Maybe it should be higher varna or maybe lower.


    By the way in a conversation in 75' Prabhupada says about marriage that varna come before marriage. Varna is about 12-14 yrs.



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