bhaktatraveler

What a weird twisted question. If you wqant to sharpen you fighting skills for a time of war I would suggest Boot Camp in the US military. They have a very good program set up for such people.

 

Trying to move into a fantasy world one extracts from scriptures written in past times and trying to enact them in modern times is more than foolish.

 

Hey here is an idea for your fantasy games. Instead of killing innocent and peaceful creatures of the forest you could all take paint ball guns and play war. You might make a mess in the forest but at least you wouldnt need to kill anything.

I've been in the Army, 10th SF, Fort Devin Mass. I was told to get out by my Guru. All gunda He says. No place for ksatriya.

If you really believe what you said about 'writen in past times' then stop reading SB!

Paint ball is great, if I only had the money for toys. To poor:crying2:

CB-r

Just because because 8+2 doesn't = 12 doesn't mean it must equal 14. That Srila Swami Maharaj was mistreated and his diciples misundertoood or didn't hear his instructions, or even prevented them from being heard, doesn't prove your point. I refuse to speculate by 'reading between the lines' unless you have clear instructions that he didn't intend his initiated disciples to follow the 4 regs. That's all this is about. You are working off an assumption of his will, I am saying please substantiate that point with some facts. Otherwise you should rethink your position on how to implement daiva varnashrama dharma. Not whether or not but how. Are you a devotee or a ksatriya? Srila Swami Maharaj said you aren't both, though you may play a role as a varna you aren't in a varna. Unless you are choosing to identify with the varna instead of as a devotee.

 

Now I understand that we want to see ourselves as aspiring devotees, not thinking ourselves qualified, but it is through the grace of Guru through initiation and acceptance of the four regulative principals that we enter into the sphere of the devotees. Once we do so, we shoud be chaste to those vows or be honest that we have broken them.

The mathmatics are Sine, Cosine, Tangent. With 2 elements of a triangle we can use one of these formulas to asertain the third missing piece/element. Be it length or angle. With the third element we also get area, which we couldn't get with a missing part to the formula.

The missing 'facts' as you say have been post thread bare.

CB-r

The saying is, 'No one can stop a determined thief.' That mentality is evidenced in the mad speculation you are engaging in just to justify your desire to kill and eat animals. The problem here is that you feel to have this sense of justification you need to drag others into your confusion. If you are successful in this then you will suffer more for misleading others.

Please tell me one and all what are the VOWS spoken of here.

The four divisions of human life, namely the brahmacari, the grihastha, the vanaprastha, and the sannyasi, are all meant to help men become perfect yogis or transcendentalists. Since human life is not meant for our enjoying sense gratification like the animals, the four orders of human life are so arranged that one may become perfect in spiritual life. The brahmacaris, or students under the care of a bona fide spiritual master, control the mind by abstaining from sense gratification. They are referred to in this verse as sacrificing the hearing process and the senses in the fire of the controlled mind. A brahmacari hears only words concerning Krishna consciousness; hearing is the basic principle for understanding, and therefore the pure brahmacari engages fully in harer namanukirtanam—chanting and hearing the glories of the Lord. He restrains himself from the vibrations of material sounds, and his hearing is engaged in the transcendental sound vibration of Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna. Similarly, the householders, who have some license for sense gratification, perform such acts with great restraint. Sex life, intoxication and meat eating are general tendencies of human society, but a regulated householder does not indulge in unrestricted sex life and other sense gratifications. Marriage on principles of religious life is therefore current in all civilized human society because that is the way for restricted sex life. This restricted, unattached sex life is also a kind of yajna because the restricted householder sacrifices his general tendency toward sense gratification for higher transcendental life.

Of course this is Srila Prabhupada, this is my master. This is my VOWS

CB-r

I say that by then Srila Prabhupada was so besieged by those who he considered the sinister movement, and had to be so placating to their egos just to keep his movement going one more day, that we were fortunate they let him live after speaking in public conversations about changing the regs by varna and flat out ordering them to implement DVD in the society.

 

quote]

 

Ameyatma das told me that Rameswara said to Krsna Kanti(?), tape administrator and creator of Golden Avitar studios, to hide this tape "That it will ruin the whole thing". Ask Ametatma das he has first hand information and was aloud to hear this conversation as it hit LA. He told me in Alachua 2000.

 

CB-r

If you meant from the above that he wasn't eating meat then that works for me. But your words just by the question you ask logically indicate you are talking about eating. I think you could have been more clear if you meanty otherwise.

Srila Prabhupada uses the example of Bhima. HIS example. How are we to see the pure devotee of the Lord in eternal past time and as used by Prabhupada, as example for us in this thread? What do you think His vows were? Did he brake them by eating meat? Bhima has sacred thread.

CB-r

I would choose the 4 regs but do everything following initiation differently. I would have taken everything much more seriously. I am in grhasta life now and it is very difficult to follow correctly. I would have stayed in bramachari life, it is much easier from my feeling to always remember Krishna, you always have the association of the devotees and the darshan of the Deities.

 

I am in a different math than you Prabhu and we never were offered anything but the 4 regs. Did Srila Swami Maharaj ever change the initiation procedure and offer specific initiation vows for the 4 varnas? If not then this is speculation on the desires of Srila Swami Maharaj.

Change was never open. No other offer was make publicly to 'ISKCON'

Good reply by the way. I would like to see at least a 100 different ones.

CB-r

Hare Krsna, Prabhu

All glories to Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Who's appearance day is tomorrow March 3, 2007. The same day all over the world. No fancy astrology, as the full moon rises, we know that is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Why it was different on Lord Nityananda's appearance? Here in the Alachua temple they celebrated one day before India! I asked why? The answer was that we would all be celebrating 'simultaneously' throughout the world. Then I asked why it was changed from when Srila Prabhupada was here? We always did the important days of Vaisnava celebration as they happened in India first.

As I thought about what was said, I understood that as the devotees were clelebrating Lord Nityananda's appearance in Alachua, in India it was only the night before the Lord's appearance. The devotees in India were still at rest until later in the afternoon in America. So now first in America, then in India???

Someone can please explain how 'simultaneously' works out to be 12 hrs BEFORE India? While they sleep the night before?

How has this happened? If Lord Nityananda is not satisfied with you by devotion, how will you aproach Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu?

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Vows. Some are straight forward and others by trickery.

 

Who would agree to follow as a brahman, if they knew there was an alternitve after 74? Just an 'if' we are speaking of. Not whether or not. IF.

 

Would you still agree to be brahman? With no concession by varna, if you were shown as part of your introduction as a bhakta after 74' that the regulations/restrictions were different according to varana and asrama? Just a straw poll by posting.

 

Would you choose vows by varna or only accept the one brahman standard, no other varnas regulations? Which CHOICE would you take for your VOWS?

 

CB-r

I truly am not trying to ruffle anyone the question is base on an example discussed else where, but is not brough up here in any other fashion than to imagine a different thing, IF, only.

Whether 4 reg's or not I leave somewhere else. Only a big honest IF about vows is asked. Would you still choose 4 reg's or by varna, your vows of regulation? And if you like, only those that came after March 74 to this day.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

Vows. Some are straight forward and others by trickery.

Who would agree to follow as a brahman, if they knew there was an alternitve after 74? Just an 'if' we are speaking of. Not whether or not. IF.

Would you still agree to be brahman? With no concession by varna, if you were shown as part of your introduction as a bhakta after 74' that the regulations/restrictions were different according to varana and asrama? Just a straw poll by posting.

Would you choose vows by varna or only accept the one brahman standard, no other varnas regulations? Which CHOICE would you take for your VOWS?

CB-r

Wrong! I was told shortly after the attack at Mayapura that Prabhuapada was informed about in 77 happened because of Bhavananada and what he was doing.

 

If a young teen ager like me could know, then many others must have known too. But Prabhupada was not told. And so when tamal's letter was written, we HAD to reject atleast 5 from the List, immediatly cuz' we KNEW!

 

You must have been in the dark to think it was not untill the 90's.

Bk Chris, I say again, the incident that I'm now speaking of happened in the US around mid 90's. Perpetrator is Indian and victom lived on East coast. In the home of a disciple, with the daughter. This is one of the still big named sannyasis today.

Did I know what was going on in Mayapura in 77? No, just the roomer mill, no first hand info, just gossip. I was not 'inside' Iskcon then, but still had loose conection. The regular devotees were keep very much in the dark then, as they still are now.

I still say that who is on the 'list' was the congregations fault for continued support where all were falling. Because of the propaganda mill and feeding from such poison, the blinded congregation was owned early on. And your post support that supposition.

Not Srila Prabhupada. ISKCON took a different life/death from a dynamic that is still replacing Prabhupada today. Prabhupada was setting up a stop gap measure to continue initiations long after the dust of a disfuntion has past and settled.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Perhaps we need to better arrange the kingdom to accomodate and contain the wide variety of foolish mishaps we engage in as we stumble toward our goal of Prema of Krsna.

 

So far it seems like lemons and lemonade, but that fits the mood of separation and its bittersweet nature.

 

Still we should pray for the increase in more meaningful service, knowing it will come being our faith to fuel the prayer.

 

Stumbling along while Praying I won't stumble.

 

ys

 

B.Mark

Encouragement, I almost forgot how it feels, so warm and safe to be me.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Sorry Prabhu if I was unfair to you. I didn't know Srila Swami Maharaj initiated ksatriya disciples, sudra disciples etc. I thought like SCSMath it was Hari Nama with understanding/agreement to the 4 regs. No one told you to follow the 4 regs then you aren't bound to them.

 

I don't have much contact with ISKCON practices so please forgive me for making the assumption.

You convoluted the point. Prabhupada initiated disciple, and accepted them from four varnas. Not the other way around.

This DVD is not now, nor has it ever been, accepted by the disciples of Srila Prabhupada as a whole in ISKCON or outside.

I'm an enigma, I have slipped through the poison veneer that is ISKCON. I have always been on the outside of their reach. Just like my Guru before me.

CB-r

I'm at peace with Bhakta Raja and whatever he chooses to eat, no problem. But the following is nonsense:

 

 

It frankly sounds delusional and earlier you had said that his meat-eating was from his neophyte days and forgivable. When shown he still does this activity, you make this huge stretch to justify it somehow. The positive vow he made is negated by the perceived necessity to "to engage the local Ksyatrias in the hunting required to keep them sharp in a wartime situation."

 

Whatever dude.

Evidence is given to you more than enough for an honest devotee.

CB-r

Same way we reconcile having unregulated sex with our wives. It's universal.

Srila Prabhupada knows my vows and if I stay in them I am fine and dandy, like you said it is personal. You can not decide for me, nor claim to have knowledge of DVD and how Guru will be. None that I have seen on this form have anything good to say about the cosmology of ISKCON in DVD format. Nor have I seen a depth of understanding DVD either.

I took diksa as a ksatriya just as Prabhupada explains in 2/14/74 conver.......It's no problem for me, just for all of you.

Hridayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hridayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

Is now Bhima not second born? has he stop being an intimate associate of the Lord? Silly rabbit. Did not Srila Prabhupada use Bhima as the example? a pure devotee meat eater.

Bk Devarsi is the only devotee steadfastly agreeing. Sooner or later this is going to fructify just like Srila Prabhupada's preaching in the West did after yrs of work in India. DVD will be the second wave of the Sankirtan movement to envelope the planet.

I never agreed to Srila Prabhupada's face to follow as brahman. He knows me as Ksatriya.

CB-r

I don't believe that was me, Srila Govinda Maharaj is my diksa Guru. I have no problem where people find or don't find Guru, that is an internal personal thing in my opinion.

Well said, thanks.

CB-r

Ah, points you take out of context are not easily forgotten, are you an elephant? So I'm an ass, you are an elephant, Bhaki-Raj there is what again? I wonder what animal theist and Beggar feel most embodies thier moods. Hmm...

 

My point is was we should all consider ourselves students per Srila Sridhar Maharaj's instructions, that even who we consider Guru have stated they receive siksa from other devotees. I never said anything about "Srila Govinda Maharaj's living siksa Guru". I wouldn't know that, I am certain He listens to Guru wherever He finds Guru. What is you point anyway?

 

Srila Swami Maharaj was Srila Govinda Maharaj's Bhagavad Gita teacher and considered Him a 'dear son'. I'm certain Srila Govinda Maharaj considered Him siksha Guru. Varnashrama is even mentioned in a letter to Srila Govinda Maharaj from Srila Swami Maharaj, thought you would get a kick out of it:

I thought it was you that somewhere in the depth of this thread made a crack about 'living Guru' And applied missunderstanding from that, to me. Not you?

'My point' of my current siksa, is as you have said of Govinda Maharaja. I say, I do the same. That is my siksa.

CB-r

Anyone with somthing serious? Relivent, new questions only please, save the rehash for another time.

Someone could start a DVD questions rehash thread. Ask the same questions and continually reject Srila Prabhupada's answer. Saying such immortal quibits as 'where does Prabhupada say where, when, how, why, who.' Over and over and over.

CB-r

Funny, but this is the way I imagine you Go figure!

Makes perfect sense coming from you. Logic, love it.

CB-r

Brajeshwara, you shouldn't have shown them that picture. Next time their in Mayapura/Navadvipa they'll try to poach the Math's deer.

I do not kill pets. I do not feed, then shoot.

CB-r

Wait a minute, why not reduce the reaction by hunting a lower species like duck?

A' hunting we shall go, a' huntng we shall go

High ho the merri-o a' hunting we shall go!

No birds or rabbits. Deer or dangerous type criters only....

TRANSLATION SB. 6.4.9

By nature’s arrangement, fruits and flowers are considered the food of insects and birds; grass and other legless living entities are meant to be the food of four-legged animals like cows and buffalo; animals that cannot use their front legs as hands are meant to be the food of animals like tigers, which have claws; and four-legged animals like deer and goats, as well as food grains, are meant to be the food of human beings.

PURPORT

By nature’s law, or the arrangement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one kind of living entity is eatable by other living entities. As mentioned herein, dvi-padam ca catush-padah: the four-legged animals (catush-padah), as well as food grains, are eatables for human beings (dvi-padam). These four-legged animals are those such as deer and goats, not cows, which are meant to be protected. Generally the men of the higher classes of society—the brahmanas, kshatriyas and vaisyas—do not eat meat. Sometimes kshatriyas go to the forest to kill animals like deer because they have to learn the art of killing, and sometimes they eat the animals also. Sudras, too, eat animals such as goats. Cows, however, are never meant to be killed or eaten by human beings. In every sastra, cow killing is vehemently condemned. Indeed, one who kills a cow must suffer for as many years as there are hairs on the body of a cow. Manu-samhita says, pravrittir esha bhutanam nivrittis tu maha-phala: we have many tendencies in this material world, but in human life one is meant to learn how to curb those tendencies. Those who desire to eat meat may satisfy the demands of their tongues by eating lower animals, but they should never kill cows, who are actually accepted as the mothers of human society because they supply milk. The sastra especially recommends, krishi-go-rakshya: the vaisya section of humanity should arrange for the food of the entire society through agricultural activities and should give full protection to the cows, which are the most useful animals because they supply milk to human society.

CB-r

You people have gone nuts again. get back to being serious. We haven't the time for this clowning. Though some is rather funny. Remember, short time left.

CB-r

Again nothimg about initiated disciples being able to chuck off their vows to follow the four regs. As much as you may want to go varmit huntin' and snack on some fresh squirrel meat once in awhile you made a vow to Krsna devotee that you would abstain from such ...ahem..pleasures.

 

Back to the vedabase bhakti king.

Actually no, I'm not going to the folio again. Point was made. You are a cyber ghost with no name and personal accountibility as to what you say. I am whom I say I am. Your not worthy of more.

Truth was presented as it is.

CB-r

So show those one or two at least that are specific to the questions asked. The fact that you don't do and offer insults instead is a sure sign that you know you have no ground to stand on.

 

But I understand. You are in too deep to back out now in a way that can be face saving for you.

Your babbling now. Wipe the drool from your mouth. I have shown over and over. It is your free will to refuse to accept.

2/14/77 cover.

Hari-çauri: Where will we introduce the varëäçrama system, then?

Prabhupäda: In our society, amongst our members.

also in the same place....

Satavarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahman, ksatriyas. There must be regular education.

CB-r

Yes no one disputes that those who have brahminical qualities were wanted to be pujaris and teachers within iskcon. He also gave instruction about keeping firearms, referrence back to the bike gangs raid on New Vrndavan.

 

But clearly in the quote from the letter above he is talking about an expanded sense of "our society" apart from temple life. No one who lives in the temple was allowed to sleep through mangal arotik, or are you suggesting now that those who haven't received braminical initiation should be allowed to sleep in.

 

 

You also didn't answer my questions about hunting parties from the temples and sudra intoxication being allowed for initiated disciples.

 

You see when it comes down to specifics you don't have it tied down very well and are only making a confusing presentation.

It is not confusing to the honest devotee. The letter and all my quotes have been spot on and clear. It is the fork tongue you speak with that is dupliscious.

The letter plainly says 'our society into 4 orders', your convoluting, not me.

CB-r

So we know of at least C the bhakti king practices what he preachs. However it is not what Prabhupada taught. Much of the conversations he is quoting is from a talk in Vrndavana where Srila Prabhupada is discussing about opening up a varnashrama college in India, (I think Vrndavana but don't remember exactly). This college was to be for the general public where parents could send their kids.

 

We are still waiting for the explict quote where Srila Prabhupada gives permission for his initiated kysatriya type disciples to go to the woods to kill and eat some poor animal.

 

Can you picture it. Once a month all these so-called kysatriyas set out from the city Iskcon centers in a camo colored van, dressed a vedic warriors, heading for woods to get in their killing practice.

 

I don"t know what you guys are smoking but I think you got a bad batch. Which brings up ainteresting pont. Are Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciples who are classified as sudras also allowed to break the no intoxication vows on some schedulued basis, you know like a few beers or bowls after work?

For a 'real' devotee of Srila Prabhupada's it would take only one or two quotes to prove a point. You, I could show 10,000+, like your number of posts here, and you would still regergitate fire from that Agrasura belly of yours. Causless unwillingness, aversion to accept Guru.

CB-r

You have been shown. What say you now?