ranjeetmore

The Ritvik controversy... The minor minor deviations from Revealed scriptural teachings that are inevitably going to snowball into major aparadhas and nonsense... The glaring absense of a prema bhakta,who can actually say like SP,when he is confronted by an athiest(who challenges that if God exists why don't i see Him ?),"I Have seen Him !"...

I'm sorry to say but you have a lot of nerve deciding which smriti is 'authentic' and which is not.

Accepted By Shiva in Ramcharitmanas. Sri Krsna is afraid of Jarasandha,who is like a twig,in front of that purna purushottama bhagavan. What is that ? Leela,manifested by Yogamaya. Mahesvara has this potency of yogamaya.Thus they are on the plane of transcendence.Mahesvara getting attracted to Sri Mohini is only pleasant.It is beyond maya...He immolates Kaama deva himself remember.Mahesvara has no lust. true.Absolutely. If MAhavishnu and Sri Krsna were to engage in battle purely for Leela,who do you think will emerge victorious ??? Either of them does,it won't matter.Sri Krsna expands into Mahavishnu...Abhinna amsa. True.But the same bhagavatam states the above things... Why so much animosity? Scriptures disagree with you. God,Do you know L-E-E-L-A. ?? LEELA LEELA LEELA LEELA LEELA. Ramacandra was trapped in Naga-paash. So now by your logic,He's should be weaker than some snakes. Wonderful. Shaivites say that Vishnu 'all pervading one' represents Shiva and Shiva "all auspicious one" represents Vishnu. Then one says that Shiva puranas,etc are 'interpolated'/manipulated,etc. The saivites say the same about Vishnu purana,etc. Although it is said that Sadashiva is a direct Personality of Godhead,Vaishnava Puranas are generally accepted due to the Svayam Bhagavan position of Sri Krsna. I don't reject the rest.In fact i should say the same about some pathetic 'madhva follower' who says that Radha is a BOGUS deity,while saying that the Radhikopanishad and Radhopanishad in the Vedas is Merely FICTITIOUS. Ironic ? I say plain dumb. Does this principle also include the specific mention of the diety along with his/her's features and qualities ? Brahma addresses SadaShiva clearly when he is petitioning Him to drink Poison.In the same chapter,Sri Vishnu is mentioned as 'The Lord Himself'. He should be addressed as Hari because Srila vedavyasa,etc are called Hari. But hara means one who emanates from Hari.But this is a seperate topic. This apparnt 'contradiction' is due to your partial disposition towards a sampradyic view of Bhagavan.SadaShiva worships Sankarsana in His abode beyond Maya,eternally. Sankarsana is the first expansion of Bhagavan.There is no contradiction.This is merely display of dealings between Bhagavan and His associates/Svamsas. If this logic were to be accepted,Sri Vasihnavism wouldn't have flourished on the basis of,"Whenever Rudra,Indra,etc is said,it addresses Sri Vishnu." So we shouldn't apply our own logic. Bhagavatam was written thousands of years ago...before any of the Sampradayas even existed. So was Maha shiva purana. There was not a need to 'introduce' the 'foul attempt of saying vishnu = shiva in order to gain popularity amongst shaivism.' It already existed in Bhagavatam. You have absolutely no problem in accepting Srila Parashurama/Sri Buddha and Srila Vyasadeva as the Avataras of Sri Hari. But as soon as Shambhu is said to be indifferent from Sri Mahavishnu,in the sense that He is His expansion,immediately you burn red and cry Foul ??? Why ?

"....me, I will make sure that the Lord's maha-prasada is distributed to everyone throughout the universe, even to the dogs and jackals.” At that moment, the lord of Vaikuntha, Visnu Himself, arrived in Kailasa to uphold Parvati's promise. Respectfully, Parvati stood up and offered obeisances to the Lord. With tears in her eyes, she let our a sigh and told her problem to the Lord. In a joyful mood, I, Locana Dasa narrate this storry. Murrari Gupta continued speaking to Damodara Pandita. “Then Lord Visnu spoke in a sweet voice: “Katyayani, don't' be in ignorance. You are My adya-sakti, and through you I manifest the entire material creation. I know that you have devotion for Me. You are my prakrti svarupini [the form of Visnu's energy]. You always engage in My devotional service. Without you, the material creation can not exist. The whole creation worships you and your husband, Lord Śiva, as Hara and Gauri knowing that you are both My very self. Pleasing you removes the misconception that you and Lord Śiva are different from Me. Please be assured I will keep your promise. I will personally distribute My maha-prasada to everyone in the universe”. Sutra-Khanda Glories of Gauranga's Associates Following Mahaprabhu's orders, His various associates appeared on earth with new names and identities. Mahesa Thakura [Lord Śiva] took the name Kamalaksana and appeared in a brahmana family. He received the title “Advaita Acarya” upon completing his study of the Vedas. That great personality previously known as Maha-Mahesvara was completely situated in the mode of goodness. Yet the people of the world called it the mode of ignorance. Seeing only his external behavior, ignorant people, who could not perceive his inner nature, said he was in the mode of ignorance. This mode of ignorance predominates in materialistic devotees. Such foolish, ignorant devotees can't understand the real position of HariHara. How can one mistakenly speculate that Hari Hara [Visnu, Śiva] are in the mode of ignorance? Now just consider how Lord Gaura is the best of all incarnations. Taking the name Sita, Goddess Katyayani appeared on earth in a brahmana family. After marrying Advaita Acarya they both preached prema-bhakti. Śri Rama Caritamanasa (Lanka-Kanda) “The monkeys brought huge mountains, which were received like playballs by Nala and Nila. When the All-merciful saw the exceedingly beautiful construction of the bridge, He smiled and observed thus: This is a most delightful and excellent spot; its glory is immeasurable and cannot be described in words. I will install (an emblem of) Lord Śambhu here: it is the crowning ambition of My heart.. Hearing this the lord of the monkeys despatched a number of messengers, who invited and fetched all the great sages. Having installed an emblem of Lord Śiva and worshipped It with due solemnity, He said, .No one else is so dear to Me as Śiva. An enemy of Śiva although he calls himself a devotee of Mine, cannot attain to Me even in a dream. He who is opposed to Śankara and yet aspires for devotion to Me is doomed to perdition, stupid and dull-witted as he is...” "Men, who, though devoted to Śankara, are hostile to Me and even so those who are enemies of Śiva but votaries of Mine shall have their abode in the most frightful hell till the end of creation." I would like to apologise severely to Sambya,specifically for my earlier posts...They must surely contain some offensive elements...for i wasn't so clear on this topic then. Who says Sri Tulsidasa is wrong ?? Such nonsense is nutured by the so called Self righteous Vaishnavas.

Brahma Vaivarta Purana (Prakriti Khanda 2.56.61) svapne jagarane sasvath Krsna dhyana ratah Śivah yatha Krsnas tatha sambhur na bhedo madhavesayoh "Sleeping or awake, Śiva is constantly absorbed in meditation on Śri Krsna. As is Śri Krsna, so is Śambhu; there is no difference between Madhava and Isa." This statement is exactly like saying Sri Krsna is indifferent from Mahavishnu.But at the same time,Sri Krsna is accepted as the basis of Mahavishnu. I estimate that some unintelligent and offensive people will start nonsense about how Brahm-vaivarta is non-authentic... But you can't ignore Bhagavatam can you ? Then there is Skanda upanishad.(sruti pramana BTW) Skanda Upanishad (8-9.) “I bow to Śiva of the form of Visnu and Visnu who is Śiva; Visnu is Śiva’s heart and Śiva, Visnu’s. Just as Visnu is full of Śiva, so is Śiva full of Visnu. As I see no difference, I am well all my life.” *** “Anyone who does not like one of these two Lords does not like both Lords. Lord Caitanya and Lord Advaita are like Lord Krsna and Lord Śiva.” - chaitanya Bhagvata 9.84 *** brhad bhagvatamrtam 2.3.116 The Lord's associates said: O Lord, you are not different from the Lord of Vaikuntha, and Gauri is not different from Goddess Laksmi.

“...As Lord Sadāśiva, the transcendental deity from Vaikuntha who is the fountainhead of all the forms of Śiva within the innumerable mundane universes, saw the wicked age of Kali, or quarrel, destroying all godly qualities in man, He became filled with compassion. After many deliberations with goddess Yogamaya He sat down on the shore of the Causal Ocean, where Lord Mahāviśnu lies in mystic slumber. That great, ever-joyful yogi sat down on a yoga-asana and began to practise yoga there. After 700 years of penance the Universal Lord Mahāviśnu appeared to Him. Five-headed Sadāśiva then offered many kinds of indescribable praises to Mahāviśnu, who replied: "My dear Sadāśiva! Why are You trying to please Me by performing such difficult austerities? You and I are one! We differ only in body!" Sadāśiva replied: "My dear Lord, unless You empower Me to save suffering mankind, how can I do it?" Then Mahāviśnu embraced Sadāśiva and thus They assumed one captivating, radiant golden form in which They would appear, roaring out 'Krsna! Krsna!' Then a most amazing divine voice resounded in the sky, proclaiming: "Listen, O Mahāviśnu! First descend in the womb of Labha-devi in this form— later I will personally descend in Nadiya. You will then find Me in the abode of Saci and Jagannatha. Balarama and all the other devotees will also all take birth there to redeem the conditioned souls." Hearing this, Mahāviśnu who is non-different from Sadāśiva, entered the womb of Labha-devi in Santipura.” In his previous birth Kuvera Pandita was the celestial treasurer Kuvera, the head of the Guhyakas, or ghostly followers of Lord Śiva. As he was a loyal disciple of Lord Śiva, Dhanapati Kuvera had performed penances with mantras to attain the Lord as his son, and the Lord blessed him by making him his father in his appearance on earth as Śri Advaita Acarya...” -Sri Advaita Prakasa.ch. 1 *** Pulastya says "When Lord Śiva became aware of Andhak's imminent attack, he requested Nandi to summon all the Ganas who were more than 700 crores in number. Some of the prominent Ganas like Pashupat, Kalmukh, Mahavrati, Digambar, Maini, Mahapashupat and Vrishabhdhwaj arrived at Mandar Mountain to help Lord Śiva at the request of Nandi.” On seeing the valiant Gana- Pashupat, Lord Śiva embraced him, which surprised all the other Ganas. They were amazed at the special honour given to him. Lord Śiva realised their astonishment and said: "Although all of you have great devotion towards me but in your ignorance, you have shown disrespect towards Lord Visnu. All of you except Pashupat don't realise that both of us [Lord Śiva and Visnu] are inseparable and there is no difference between us. Pashupat is aware of this and hence he has been accorded the highest honour." Having said this, Lord Śiva revealed his majestic form of Sadāśiva to the Ganas. The Ganas were bewildered on seeing the whole universe existing within Sadāśiva. Lord Sadāśiva then transformed his appearance into that of Lord Visnu. - Shiva Mahapurana.

[4.6.42] brahmovāca jāne tvām īśam viśvasya jagato yoni-bījayoh śakteh śivasya ca param yat tad brahma nirantaram “Lord Brahmā said: My dear Lord Śiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.” tvam eva bhagavann etac chiva-śaktyoh svarūpayoh viśvam srjasi pāsy atsi krīdann ūrna-pato yathā “My dear Lord, you create this cosmic manifestation, maintain it, and annihilate it by expansion of your personality, exactly as a spider creates, maintains and winds up its web.” [44] tvam eva dharmārtha-dughābhipattaye daksena sūtrena sasarjithādhvaram tvayaiva loke 'vasitāś ca setavo yān brāhmanāh śraddadhate dhrta-vratāh “My dear Lord, Your Lordship has introduced the system of sacrifices through the agency of Daksa, and thus one may derive the benefits of religious activities and economic development. Under your regulative principles, the institution of the four varnas and āśramas is respected. The brāhmanas the refore vow to f ollow this system strictly.” [49] bhavāms tu pumsah paramasya māyayā durantayāsprsta-matih samasta-drk tayā hatātmasv anukarma-cetahsv anugraham kartum ihārhasi prabho “My dear Lord, you are never bewildered by the formidable influence of the illusory energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore you are omniscient and should be merciful and compassionate toward those who are bewildered by the same illusory energy and are very much attached to fruitive activities.” [8.7.19] tad ugra-vegam diśi diśy upary adho visarpad utsarpad asahyam aprati bhītāh prajā dudruvur ańga seśvarā araksyamānāh śaranam sadāśivam “O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Śiva [sadāśiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.” Here Sri Vishnu is mentioned as 'The Lord Himself',thus identified as Supreme. [21] śrī-prajāpataya ūcuh deva-deva mahā-deva bhūtātman bhūta-bhāvana trāhi nah śaranāpannāms trailokya-dahanād visāt “The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all demigods, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.” [23] guna-mayyā sva-śaktyāsya sarga-sthity-apyayān vibho dhatse yadā sva-drg bhūman brahma-visnu-śivābhidhām “O Lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Visnu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.” Lord Sadashiva is same as Mahavishnu,Thus there should be no difficulty in understanding this statement. [24] tvam brahma paramam guhyam sad-asad-bhāva-bhāvanam nānā-śaktibhir ābhātas tvam ātmā jagad-īśvarah “You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, impersonal Brahman, which is originally Parabrahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.” [29] mukhāni pañcopanisadas taveśa yais trimśad-astottara-mantra-vargah yat tac chivākhyam paramātma-tattvam deva svayam-jyotir avasthitis te "O Lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Śiva [sadāśiva], is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma." [40] pumsah krpayato bhadre sarvātmā prīyate harih prīte harau bhagavati prīye 'ham sacarācarah tasmād idam garam bhuñje prajānām svastir astu meī “My dear gentle wife Bhavānī, when one performs benevolent activities for others, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Hari, is very pleased. And when the Lord is pleased, I am also pleased, along with all other living creatures. Therefore, let me drink this poison, for all the living entities may thus become happy because of me.” Source- Bhagavatam.

Kaisersose will now tell us if Ramcharitmanas matches with the scriptures or not. WOW. But no thanks...The head of Ramanadi sampradaya....Sri Rambhadracharya ji.If he doesn't reconcile Sri Ramcharitmanas with Valmiki Ramayana,I WILL EAT MY SANDALS. What do you know about the intricate details and teachings of bhakti ??? Tulsidas confirms all the spiritual truths that are found in the revealed scriptures. And Shankara and Sri Vishnu is the same implies that Kaisersose is same as Sri Vishnu. Well,you see,Brahmadeva doesn't say in the bhagavatam,"Kaisersose,you are the paramatma within every jeeva." So we should get the cue.

The truth is,raghu,you will never be able to understand my views for whenever a person glorifies Shankara,by deault you get your defenses up. I accept the position of Shankara as Sri Rama's eternal servant.I propagate it,in fact. But doesn't Sri Bhagavan,in leela,act equal to and/or subserviant to Sriman Narayana ???? Bhagavatm is smriti,yes,but it is more authoritative Ramayana,isn't it now ? How am i avoiding the discussion by giving you tangible pramana ?? Sadashiva is indifferent from Sri Vishnu. But the Bhagavan feature being the basis(pratishtha) of Paramatma as well as Brahm,it is accepted that Sri Krsna is the 'origin' so to say,of Sadashiva. HOW do you counteract smriti pramana that Sri Vishnu is equal to Sadashiva ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The position of brahm is clear. He has a form because the vedas say so. That form cannot be speculated on and or thought about because the vedas say so. So what is the problem ????? Your asking me,do you know what is Brahm's form . I do.I know so from those 6 personalities whom i mentioned earler and revealed scriptures. How do i know He has a form at all ? Dve vava brahmano rupe murtancaivamurtanca, Brahm is Formless as well as with a form. Nara kritm para brahm. The form cannot be speculated upon.I cannot formulate the form of brahm according to my whims. But Acharyas have accepted that the mind being material,the Remembrance of the Lord is material,as also the meditation on nirguna,nirvishesha,niraakar brahm is material. But in the case of Bhagavan,He goes on bestowing His mercy,just as the sadhaka progresses.This is possible because Sri Bhagavan manifests all the energies. Whereas niraakar Brahm is inactive.Thus there is no 'bestowing of mercy' on mayavaadis. Thus if brahm's form is explained to you,you will be able to meditate upon It.But,inevitably,it will be such a form as springs from your limited,material mind. ONLY after you attain Brahm will you be able to see the Real,eternal form. The one that Shankara,Narada,Vyasa,Bhisma,etc. see. Otherwise, Tulsidas says,"During the Svayamvara,when Sri rama was present in the arena,all the people who were assembled there saw Him differently.One said He has 10 heads,the other said He has 20 heads.Still others said He has 100 heads.No one could see Him AS HE IS." Even Sri Krsna...You'll just see a normal boy,who is blackish and quite beautiful.If you see Him in Vrndavan,you will laugh on the Vaishnavacharyas.You will only laugh that Para Brahm is teasing and chasing girls like a normal,lust driven boy. Thats because your eyes CAN NEVER transcend the Maya...Bhagavan's body is covered by yogamaya. This energy maintains its work of yoga at the same time,doing the work of 'maya' in front of conditioned people. This is why you can never identify Bhagavan even if He comes to eat at your house. Thus there is no question of thinking about the original form,when you cannot even see it in the original splendour and opulence. If we cannot comprehend the Form,the question pops up,why we call it a form ??? How ? The fact that YOU CANNOT COMPREHEND THE FORM FROM BASICS should give you the hint to actually stop using your intellect. But no.Still,a 'question pops up...' thanks.

TECHINICALLY,even the Mahat tattva lies within the Spiritual sky.SO ? This is in exact confirmation what so many rasiks have confirmed,"Paramatma sits behind jeevatma.The jeevatma just has to turn around.He has to turn around from Maya to Bhagavan.Done.From Surrender to Maya,surrender to Bhagavan." How does this mean that you are DREAMING? That the atomic jeeva is a mere 'subconscious' projection ? Does SP say that directly ? This is really BAD....I'm sorry but this the last straw....Iskcon HAS FAILED.

I'm sorry but isn't 99% of this discussion based on personal opinions and speculations? If yes,we all know how wrong it is. If you still think it is not,then please tell me how am i wrong. Someone above said that being in the Mahat tattva is a state of experience. This is complete sampradayic homicide. Not only does it oppose the established fact that Jeevatma is ATOMIC and that the Material Manifestation emanates from the Supreme Purusha, it basically implies that Mayavaad and Achintya bheda abheda are hardly different. If you may be so kind as to provide QUOTES of any of the 6 gosvamis,Srila Bhaktivinoda,Srila Bhakti siddhanta,there can be some point of discussion but otherwise I'm sorry to say that you'll are massively misleading.

There is misery everywhere.Everyone feels the same.... So what is the solution ? Attain Sri Krsna. Why ? Because He is Bliss. Raso Vai saha. So what ? He alone can make you happy. Rasatvam heva yam labhdva anandi bhavati. I know saying is easier than doing.But it is possible with practise. If you don't,you will take to your old ways without doubt.

I'm at my wits end.

Anyway, Please show a statement of SP directly including these points. "The jeevatma has a form." "The jeevatma is now situated in Goloka and dreaming that it is in mahat tattva." If he has said statements bearing the above exact meanings,i shall accept the completely unsupported theory of falldown.

where is my post ?

Rascal translation.

What rascal translation is this ?

"Yo brahmanam vidhidhati purvam yo vai vedamsca prahinoti tasmayin.." - Svetasvatara Upanishad 6.18.19 He who Projected Brahma at the beginning of the creation...I surrender to that Effulgent One. Here,Sri Vishnu is addressed,in the same upanishad where Shankara is said to be the Supreme. Shankara is accepted as non-different from Sri Vishnu.

Lord Brahma addresses Lord Shiva: "My dear Lord, devotees who have fully dedicated their lives unto your lotus feet certainly observe your presence as Paramatma in each and every being" SB 4.6.46 Srimad Bhagavatam is considered more authoritative that the Ramayana. Why is it so hard to understand that Shankara is the same personality ?? When you are offending Shambhu,you obviously offend the same Lord Vishnu. In the svetasvatara upanishad,rudra is said to be that Supreme person. What can you possibly say to counteract Sruti Pramana ?? Is it so tough to accept that Sri Krsna Expands into Sadashiva just as He expands into Narayana? Obviously if you are from Madhva,Ramanuja,etc,then i dunno what to say to you.

Post #9 has absolutely no value for it is my speculation and i can't even delete it . Dunno what i was thinking. Please read post #7 which continues from post #1.

Going by the above logic, 'Formlessness' and or/ 'nothingness',this concept also exists within the mind.Am i right ? So if you say that the concept of Form exists within the mind and hence this concept cannot apply in Brahm's region,then you will also have to say that VOID-this concept is inapplicable also by the same logic. Then there is another problem. The vedas say He GIVES the energies with which the senses are able to TAKE IN the knowledge of matter. Now lets say,Eyes can see forms of matter. BUT it is Bhagavan who makes it possible for your eyes to see,your intelligence to understand it and your mind to think about it. On the other hand,the vedas say that EVERYTHING has Emanated From that Supreme Person,manifest(form) and unmanifest(formlessness). It is because of His energy that we are seeing,thinking and understanding form.Because of His energies,your mind can think about that form.How is it logical to conclude that FORM/FORMLESSNESS originates in the Mind ?? It does not originate in the mind.We merely observe it. It exists outside of the mind,as a transformation of one of Bhagavan's energies.Form being a transformation of His own energy,obviously implies that FORM/FORMLESSNESS found in our present surroundings itself originates from Bhagavan.Thus you cannot apply a definition from a dictionary.

OR We could have taken the easier way and just accepted Srimad Bhagvatam.But apparently,it is not much of an authority in Mayavaad circles. I'm not mocking or anything......

Continuing from previous post, Who can Know Bhagavan ? The simple answer is: Bhagavan. So He can give this Knowledge to others ? Yes. Brhatvat Brinhadhatvat ca. - sruti. Brahm means One who is the Greatest and Who makes others also Great. *** "Ano raniyan mahato mahiyan atma guhayam mihitosyajantotamah kratuh pasyati bhisa shoko dhatuh prasadan mahiman misam" -Svetasvatara upanishad 3.20 -Kathopanishad 1.2.20 DHATUH PRASADAN MAHIMAN MISAM- With His Krpa(The word Prasada has been used).With His Mercy,ANYONE can know Him.Otherwise it is not possible. Anyone ? Yes even cats,dogs,donkeys.Even an Elephant came to the knowledge of that Brahm. *** Why is veda contradicting itself? It IS NOT.The vedas say NO ONE CAN KNOW BRAHM ON THEIR OWN STRENGTH.And now, "Nayamatma pravachanena labhya na medhaya na bahuna shrutena yah me vai sh bhrinute...... " - Kathopanishad 1.2.23 - Mundakopanishad 3.2.3 You cannot Know that Brahm by listening to lectures (Pravachan), Na medhaya- The greatest of all intellectuals cannot grasp Him. Na bahuna shrutena- You may listen to the vedas thousands of times but you will never attain Him. So How ? Yah me vai sh Bhrnute- Those who recieve His mercy can ALONE Know Him. *** "Deva prasadat ca" - Svetasvatara Upanishad 6.21 His krpa/Mercy/prasada is a must.Otherwise forget it. "Atha api te deva padambuja dvaya prasada lesa nugrihit eva hijanati tattvam bhagavann mahimno na chanya eko viciram vichinman."- Srimad Bhagvatam 10.14.29 Srila Vedavyasa states that even if someone does any type of sadhana/penance/yoga/etc for crores of Kalpas(1 kalpa=511 trillion years ?),it doesn't matter.You won't be able to catch a hair of Bhagavan. Then how ? If He bestows some mercy (krpa kataksh/prasada lesa).Only a little mercy,that's it. *** Arjuna said,"Nasto Mohah smritir labdha tvat prasadan mayacyutasthito 'smi gata sandehah karisye vacanam tava." -Bhagavad Gita 18.73 Krsna ! By YOUR MERCY I am no longer under illusion.BY YOUR MERCY.Tvat prasadan. *** "Ram Krpa binu sunu khag rayi jaani na jaayi Ram Prabhu taayi Jaane bina na hoye para teeti Binu Para teeti na hoyi hi preeti Tumhari krpa tum hi Raghu nandan Jaanat bhagat bhagat urchandan Ram Krpa Nasha Hi sab rogah." - Sri Tulsidas. His Krpa ALONE.You cannot Know Him at all without His Mercy." So daasi Raghuveer ki Samujhe Mithya sopy chutaye na Ram Kripa binu naath kahu pada roopy." This Maya is the servant of Sri Rama.I declare that without Ram Kripa This Maya will not Go. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that Brahm can be known without His mercy. Problem solved. Find a person who has recieved Bhagavan's Mercy and ask him,"What is the form of Brahm ?" He will then tell you.

"Na tatra chakshur gacchhati na bha gacchhati no manah." -1.3 Kenopanishad Your senses,your mind and your intelligence CANNOT go there.They Can NEVER know Brahm.They are material/jada/prakrt/mayic. The following mantras are found in the Kenopanishad: "Yad vacha nav vyudatitam yena vag vyudate tad eva brahm tvam viddinedam yadytam upasate" - 1.4 "jana mana san manute yena hurmano matam tad eva brahm viddinedam yadytam upasate" - 1.5 "ya chakshu cana pashyate yena chakshu 'vam pashyati tad eva brahm tvam viddi " - 1.6 "ya kshotrena na ksrunoti he na kshotra midam ksrutam tad eva brahm tvam viddi nedam yadytam upasate" - 1.7 "yah pranena na praaneti he na praanah praneeyate tad eva brahm tvam viddi nedam yadytam upasate" - 1.8 These verses mean : Bhagavan PROVIDES the Energies in your senses,your Mind and your Intelligence. With THAT energy do all these faculties perform work.Without His energy,they are INCAPABLE to perform their respective work. NOW,the import is : Bhagavan/His energies are the ones that put life into your senses/mind and intelligence, exactly how the Sun powers up the solar light. With that solar energy,the solar lights work. Lets say the solar light is a torch (our senses/mind/intelligence) powered by the Sun (Bhagavan). NOW TELL ME, CAN YOUR TORCH LIGHT THROW LIGHT ON THE SUN ? I'll answer that for you - NO,The torch light is incapable of throwing light on the Sun. So How do you propose that we will understand Bhagavan/His Form/His names/His Being with our pathetic intelligence? It CANNOT THROW LIGHT ON BHAGAVAN.Period. for Bhagavan Himself is the cause for making your Senses/Intelligence work. "Prakashak se prakashit vastu apne prakashak ki prakashika NAHI BAN SAKTI. " - Sri Maharaj ji. This is exactly what happens in the incident narrated in the Kenopanishad. All the great demigods like Indra,Agni are UNABLE to even Pierce the Transcendental Fiery,Effulgent Form of Sri Krsna. They're unable to even look upon Him. "Yadi manyate tu vedeti"- 2.1 Kenopanishad. If you think that you know/can know/will know Brahm,then there is not a bigger fool than you. e.g. Kalidas. "Yato vacho ni vartante apraapya mana sasaha" taitereya upanishad 2.4/ also found in the same upanishad 2.9. Your senses and Mind and Intelligence Cannot GO there.They CaN NEVER grasp even a hair of Brahm.APRAAPYA. He is Unfathomable.Any and Every Part of Him is Unfathomable. Even a small part of Him or any Aspect of Him is incomprehensible. Why ? Purnasya purna medaya... He is the Ultimate whole. "Tadah avyakta maha" - Vedanta Sutra 3.2.22 He is Avyakta....Beyond Everything. "Ram Swarupa Tumhara Vachan Agochar Buddhi PARA !" Sri Tulsidasa says,"That Brahm is Rama Swarup.He is BEYOND the grasp of your intelligence." "Avigat akath apaar Ram atarkya buddhi man vaani mat hamar asa sun hu sayaani go gochar jaha lagi man jaayi so sab maaya janhu bhai." Tarkya- means logic.Tulsidas says,"Don't take your logic there ! Ramacandra is BEYOND your intelligence,mind and speech . Those who are Intelligent Will heed to this advice of mine.Why cannot you understand Him by reasoning ? I'll tell you why.Wherever your Mind,intelligence and senses go,it is LIMITED only to Mayic region.It CANNOT go Beyond Maya." Thus Sri Tulsidas explains in such simple language so as to let even the fool understand the vedas. Okay.We cannot know Him.But what about the great intellectuals ? Brahma,Saraswati,Brhaspati ? "Jag pe khan sab dekhan haare vidhi hari shambhu nachavan haare Teu na jaanahi Maram Tumhara aur tumhi ko jaanan haara." Rama ! Brahma,Vishnu and Mahesvara Do not Know You ! Who else will then Know you !? "VedaAham samatitani vartamanani caarjuna bhavishyani ca bhutani Mam TU VEDA NA KASHCHANN" - Bhagavad Gita 7.26 "Arjuna , I know Everyone BUT NO ONE can know Me.NO ONE." Why ? "Trbhir guna mayayair bhavair ebhih sarvam idam jagat Mohitam nabhijanati mam ebhyah param Avyayam." Bhagavd Gita 7.13 No ONE can know Me,Because they are ALL under the three Modes of My Maya.I'm beyond these three Modes,divya. So the conclusion is : No one can know Bhagavan.No one.No one.No one. So no use putting forward some logical questions about the nature/aspect/form of Brahm. Thus it is understood that the questions you put forward are to be considered futile.(No offense to YOU.)