gHari

SvarUpa DAmodara: One last question, this stone thing. Now as a devotee we know that matter is also eternal in the form of pradhAna, described in Third Canto in... PrabhupAda: Yes. We have already explained, there are two energies. So if the energetic is eternal, the energy is also eternal. But the difference between the inferior and superior means one is manifested eternally and one is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. That is inferior. The matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Just like the cloud. What is this cloud? Cloud is also manifestation of the energy of the sun, is it not? But it is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. So that is the difference between the inferior and superior. Both of them are energies of the sun. But the cloud is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. But as energy, they are coming from the same source. [break] ...but matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Therefore it is inferior. And life is always manifested, therefore superior. I am soul, I am eternal. But this body is manifested now. It is existing eighty years or hundred years, but this body will be finished, finished forever. Then again another matter manifests. But I am the soul, eternal, this body or that body. Na hanyate hanyamAne zarIre [bg. 2.20]. He is ever-manifest, either this body or that body, it doesn't matter. That is eternity. That is superior energy. ========= In the above analogy I think Srila Prabhupada parallels sunshine with pradhana, and clouds with the space, time and matter of prakrti.

http://vedabase.net/sb/3/26/10/en

The injunction of VaiSNava regulation in this connection runs as follows: arcye viSNau zilA-dhIr guruSu nara-matir vaiSNave jAti-buddhiH zrI-viSNor nAmni zabda-sAmAnya-buddhiH, etc. "One should not consider the Deity of the Lord as worshiped in the temple to be an idol, nor should one consider the authorized spiritual master an ordinary man. Nor should one consider a pure VaiSNava to belong to a particular caste, etc." (Padma PurANa) Parampara ......... http://vedabase.net/sb/2/3/22/en

Then there is no sampradaya, no parampara. It is mental speculation from the mind - such a mountain of offense to climb over. Gita 9.26: <center> patraM puSpaM phalaM toyaM yo me bhaktyA prayacchati tad ahaM bhakty-upahRtam aznAmi prayatAtmanaH </center> patram--a leaf; puSpam--a flower; phalam--a fruit; toyam--water; yaH--whoever; me--unto Me; bhaktyA--with devotion; prayacchati--offers; tat--that; aham--I; bhakti-upahRtam--offered in devotion; aznAmi--accept; prayata-AtmanaH--from one in pure consciousness. If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.

What sampradaya speaks of idols?

This really takes me back to the 70s. My son really liked this butterfly song: http://www.iskcon.com.au/Audio_pages/Mangalananda_ChangeofHeart.html

Yes, that is interesting, one for the Causal Ocean to reveal. Perhaps the timing for a new mahat-tattva to be created is determined in the transcendental realm by the autocratic will of Sri Krsna, Sri Narayana. Our only estimate of the interval is the length of time our current Brahma enjoys.

Yesterday on an old Ed Sullivan show I saw a dog act with trained poodles wearing costumes hopping around on their hind legs looking like humans. I realized that they weren't humans but were just behaving like that because they had been trained. They really just wanted to receive their treat, some food that would come at the end of the show. How much does devotion parallel this dog act? What are the motivations behind what we do? It's a humbling question if we dare to ask it. <center></center>

Portion of the purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 2.6.42: So the temporary creation of the material manifestation is an exhibition of the material energy of the Lord, and to manage the whole show the Supreme Lord incarnates Himself as the KAraNArNavazAyI ViSNu just as a magistrate is deputed by the government to manage affairs temporarily. This KAraNodakazAyI ViSNu causes the manifestation of material creation by looking over His material energy (sa aikSata). In the first volume of this book we have already discussed to some extent the explanation of the verse jagRhe pauruSaM rUpam. The duration of the illusory play of material creation is called a kalpa, and we have already discussed the creation's taking place in kalpa after kalpa. By His incarnation and potential activities, the complete ingredients of creation, namely time, space, cause, result, mind, the gross and subtle elements and their interactional modes of nature--goodness, passion and ignorance--and then the senses and their reservoir source, the gigantic universal form as the second incarnation GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu, and all living beings, both moving and standing, which come out of the second incarnation, all became manifested. Ultimately, all these creative elements and the creation itself are but potential manifestations of the Supreme Lord; nothing is independent of the control of the Supreme Being. This first incarnation in the material creation, namely KAraNArNavazAyI ViSNu, is the plenary part of the original Personality of Godhead, SrI KRSNa, described in the Brahma-saMhitA (5.48) as follows: yasyaika-nizvasita-kAlam athAvalambya jIvanti loma-vilajA jagad-aNDa-nAthAH viSNur mahAn sa iha yasya kalA-vizeSo govindam Adi-puruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi All the innumerable universes are maintained only during the breathing period of MahA-ViSNu, or KAraNArNavazAyI ViSNu, who is only a plenary part of Govinda, the original Personality of Godhead Lord KRSNa.

Hey you guys, you've already used up your three bullets. It is in the hands of the jury now. I'll use my second last bullet to call to the witness stand, Monsieur Babaji: <blockquote>Vrajanatha: That is a wonderful conclusion! I wish to hear the evidence the Vedas give for it. The words of the Supreme Lord (Bhagavad-gita) are worthy evidence by themselves. However, when they are supported by the words of the Upanisads, they are more easily accepted by the people in general. Babaji: These truths are revealed in many passages of the Vedas. I will recite one or two of them. Please listen carefully. In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (2.2.20 and 4.3.9) it is said: "As tiny sparks fly from a fire, so all individual souls have come from the Supreme." "A person has two places: the spiritual world and the place where the spiritual world meets another world. There is also a third place, a place of dreams. Standing between them, the soul sees on one side the spiritual world and on the other side the place of dreaming." This passage describes the individual soul's (jiva-sakti), which can reside in either the spiritual or material worlds (tatastha). In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.18) it is also said: "As a large fish in a river may go to one shore or the other, so a person may go to one world or another. He may go to a world where he is awake, or may go to a world made of dreams." Vrajanatha: How does the Vedanta philosophy define the word "tatastha?" Babaji: The place where a river's waters meet with the land of the shore is called the 'tata'. The 'tata' is then the place where water meets the land. What is the nature of this 'tata'? It is like the thinnest of threads that runs along the boundary of land and water. A 'tata' is like the finest of lines, so small that the gross material eyes cannot even see it . In this example the spiritual world is like the water and the material world is like the land. The thin line that separates them is the 'tata'. That boundary place is the abode of the individual spirit souls. The individual spirit souls are like atomic particles of sunlight. The souls can see both the spiritual world and the material world created by Maya. The Lord's spiritual potency, cit-sakti, is limitless, and the Lord's material potency, maya-sakti, is gigantic. Standing between them, the individual spirit soul is very tiny. The individual spirit souls are manifested from the tatastha-sakti of Lord Krsna. Therefore the souls are naturally situated on the boundary (tatastha) of matter and spirit). Vrajanatha: What is this 'tatastha' nature of the individual souls? Babaji: Standing between them, the soul can see these two worlds. The 'tatastha' nature of the souls refers to the fact that they must be under the control of one of these two potencies. The actual place of the 'tata' (shore may change. What was once dry land may be covered with water, and what was once covered by water may again become dry land. If he turns his gaze upon Lord Krsna, the soul comes under the shelter of Lord Krsna's spiritual potency. But if he turns away from Krsna and turns his gaze to the material potency, maya, then the soul is caught in maya's trap. That is what is meant by 'the soul's tatastha nature'. </blockquote>

I've always had the impression that there is no material space or time when the universes are wound up; they'd become manifest again when a new mahat-tattva manifests.

PrabhupAda: No, I have no, I mean to say, grudge against. If KRSNa wants... In old age I was living a retired life in VRndAvana. He asked me "Get out, go to America." So I came. At the age of seventy years, actually nobody goes out of home. But KRSNa asked me, "Get out and go." So I came. And although I have got the best temple in VRndAvana, I cannot live there. But a fighting soldier is honored by the government. He maybe dies, he is recognized by the government, "Here is a soldier, laid down his life by fighting." So we prefer that life. We shall die fighting with mAyA.

Sarva gattah, thank you for finding so many relevant quotes of Srila Prabhupada. This thread has become a valuable resource.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.5.22: <center> kAlAd guNa-vyatikaraH pariNAmaH svabhAvataH karmaNo janma mahataH puruSAdhiSThitAd abhUt </center> kAlAt--from eternal time; guNa-vyatikaraH--transformation of the modes by reaction; pariNAmaH--transformation; svabhAvataH--from the nature; karmaNaH--of activities; janma--creation; mahataH--of the mahat-tattva; puruSa-adhiSThitAt--because of the puruSa incarnation of the Lord; abhUt--it took place. After the incarnation of the first puruSa [KAraNArNavazAyI ViSNu], the mahat-tattva, or the principles of material creation, take place, and then time is manifested, and in course of time the three qualities appear. Nature means the three qualitative appearances. They transform into activities. PURPORT By the omnipotency of the Supreme Lord, the whole material creation evolves by the process of transformation and reactions one after another, and by the same omnipotency, they are wound up again one after another and conserved in the body of the Supreme. KAla, or time, is the synonym of nature and is the transformed manifestation of the principles of material creation. As such, kAla may be taken as the first cause of all creation, and by transformation of nature different activities of the material world become visible. These activities may be taken up as the natural instinct of each and every living being, or even of the inert objects, and after the manifestation of activities there are varieties of products and by-products of the same nature. Originally these are all due to the Supreme Lord. The VedAnta-sUtras and the BhAgavatam thus begin with the Absolute Truth as the beginning of all creations (janmAdy asya yataH [sB 1.1.1]).

Then there would be no alarm clocks.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

Then what does this mean and where is this "beautiful spiritual body"? ..........

Humility.

This surely sounds exactly as Srila Prabhupada explains it. I think we should avoid rushing to a conclusion before accommodating both Babaji and Prabhupada.

With no vegetation on the planet, who knows what kinds of drastic sun-burning weather patterns, earthquakes, volcanoes, continental drifts and rifts would mold a new face on the earth? What would survive the lava? Axe Max, in the fiya!

It is the prema that is nitya-siddha, but what might be the implications of that?

I don't get it. Why should it affect me at all whether I came from here or there or just appeared in the womb? Let's look at the psychology behind the big preaching hoax.

When Krsna descends He is always accompanied by His entourage. Srimad Bhagavatam 1.11.39:<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>taM menire 'balA mUDhAH straiNaM cAnuvrataM rahaH apramANa-vido bhartur IzvaraM matayo yathA </CENTER> tam--unto Lord SrI KRSNa; menire--took it for granted; abalAH--delicate; mUDhAH--because of simplicity; straiNam--one who is dominated by his wife; ca--also; anuvratam--follower; rahaH--lonely place; apramANa-vidaH--unaware of the extent of glories; bhartuH--of their husband; Izvaram--the supreme controller; matayaH--thesis; yathA--as it is. <B></FONT> The simple and delicate women truly thought that Lord Sri KRSNa, their beloved husband, followed them and was dominated by them. They were unaware of the extent of the glories of their husband, as the atheists are unaware of Him as the supreme controller. PURPORT </B>Even the transcendental wives of Lord SrI KRSNa did not know completely the unfathomable glories of the Lord. This ignorance is not mundane because there is some action of the internal potency of the Lord in the exchange of feelings between Him and His eternal associates. The Lord exchanges transcendental relations in five ways, as proprietor, master, friend, son and lover, and in each of these pastimes He plays fully by the potency of yogamAyA, the internal potency. He plays exactly like an equal friend with the cowherd boys or even with friends like Arjuna. He plays exactly like a son in the presence of YazodAmAtA, He plays exactly like a lover in the presence of the cowherd damsels, and He plays exactly like a husband in the presence of the queens of DvArakA. Such devotees of the Lord never think of the Lord as the Supreme, but think of Him exactly as a common friend, a pet son, or a lover or husband very much dear to heart and soul. That is the relation between the Lord and His transcendental devotees, who act as His associates in the spiritual sky, where there are innumerable VaikuNTha planets. <B>When the Lord descends, He does so along with His entourage to display a complete picture of the transcendental world, where pure love and devotion for the Lord prevail without any mundane tinge of lording it over the creation of the Lord.</b> Such devotees of the Lord are all liberated souls, perfect representations of the marginal or internal potency in complete negation of the influence of the external potency. The wives of Lord KRSNa were made to forget the immeasurable glories of the Lord by the internal potency so that there might not be any flaw of exchange, and they took it for granted that the Lord was a henpecked husband, always following them in lonely places. In other words, even the personal associates of the Lord do not know Him perfectly well, so what do the thesis writers or mental speculators know about the transcendental glories of the Lord? The mental speculators present different theses as to His becoming the causes of the creation, the ingredients of the creation, or the material and efficient cause of the creation, etc., but all this is but partial knowledge about the Lord. Factually they are as ignorant as the common man. The Lord can be known by the mercy of the Lord only, and by no other means. But since the dealings of the Lord with His wives are based on pure transcendental love and devotion, the wives are all on the transcendental plane without material contamination. </BLOCKQUOTE> ------------ From the Bhagavatam Appendix: Entourage: The Padma PurANa states, eta hi yAdavAH sarve mad-gaNA eva bhAvini/ sarvathA mat-priyA devi mat-tulya-guNa-zAlinaH: "My dear lady, all these YAdavas are My personal associates. They are in all respects very dear to Me, O goddess, and their characters are equal to Mine."

See LOST and the previous DHARMA Initiative.

Maya's goal is simply to provide the jivas with the satisfaction of being independent of God, and then showing the jivas that this is not their best interest. In truth it is all Krsna's mercy, although some see it as the reward and punishment of mundane conditioning. But there is nothing mundane about it - it is God's energy, His external energy. It is only mundane if seen that way. There is a fault, and God is helping us to correct it. If we are submissive and humble we will get through the lessons with less drama and excitement. The more obstinate we are, the more drastic must the measures be to effect the proper change of heart. Stay conscious of God and learn to see that it is all good.