John Lennon, my Inspiration

June 9, 2006

He was never really big on vegetarianism ever and never claimed to be.

His most dangerous drug part from heroin was booze and he largely stopped

it.

Learning and changing doesn't mean becoming perfect.

On

Behalf Of jo

08 June 2006 20:45

Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

He didn't learn though. He kept going back to drugs - just like he kept

having a go at pretending to be vegetarian and deviating from it.

Jo

-

" Anouk Sickler " <zurumato

Thursday, June 08, 2006 7:25 AM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

> hi jo,

>

> to err is human,

> john lennon had a period, where he had a problem with heroin. He then

> quit, and wrote a song called " cold turkey "

>

> I think that the fact that he showed us his human side and how he

> evolved and learned from his mistakes is the same reason people

> identify so much with him.

>

> , " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

> >

> > You assume that everybody is going to make mistakes - why is that?

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > -

> > Michael Benis

> >

> > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM

> > RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

> >

> > Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes

> yourself! :-)

> >

> > He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to put

> down what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make a

> difference etc.

> >

> > I'll admit the " and more " was a bit of wind-up - but he was

> honest enough about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint,

> but then let's leave that for the true believers....

> >

> > Of course he wasn't vegan either....

> >

> > But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that

> >

> ----

--

> >

> On Behalf Of Peter

> > 06 June 2006 19:33

> >

> > Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

> >

> > Hi Michael

> >

> > But he hardly constituted the whole feminist movement.... and

> I'd also wonder how anyone who treated women with quite such disregard

> could possibly be classified as a feminist!!!!

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> > -

> > Michael Benis

> >

> > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:21 PM

> > RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

> >

> > He was part of the feminist movement, and more.

> >

> ----

> >

> On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell

> > 06 June 2006 16:06

> >

> > Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

> >

> > Hi Michael & everyone

> >

> > >>Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?

> > > Yes, and more

> >

> > So, you wouldn't have said that the feminist movement had

> anything at all to do with it?????

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

>

To send an email to -

>

June 9, 2006

Oh dear!

Admonition instead of discussion...

On Behalf Of jo08 June 2006 20:53 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

It would be better not to try to turn around your arguments Michael.

Jo

-

Michael Benis

Thursday, June 08, 2006 12:26 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Well, if someone posts a satirical comment asking whether somebody else thought Lennon was single-handedly capable of stopping the Vietnam war (I couldn't believe that was a straight question), it doesn't seem to me illegitimate to simply reply "yes and more....."

By the way, you seem to have missed the point yourself: the "Lennon praisers" aren't saying that he was perfect, but the "Lennon denigrators" seem to be stating that unless he was perfect and had changed the course of the Vietnam war single-handed he shouldn't be worthy of their "adulation".

But then, maybe all this rhetoric is now starting to get a little out of control?

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell08 June 2006 12:02 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

>You seem to be mistaking your own rhetoric for what other people have written -unless you're

> referring to my satirical "yes and more" comments....

Oh, I see, it was satirical was it... glad you clarified that (and, yes, this is sarcasm)!

BTW - you seem to have got us confused - I haven't said anything about Lennon being wonderful - that was you....

BB

Peter

June 9, 2006

Sure sometimes once is enough, but sometimes it isn't.... In human relationships often it isn't...

On Behalf Of jo08 June 2006 20:48 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

That's very sad, and totally avoidable.

Jo

-

Michael Benis

Thursday, June 08, 2006 11:06 AM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Peter you really want to read a bit more about their marriage from all sides. They were both hurting.

And sometimes -- sometimes often -- you only start to understand mistakes are mistakes until you've made them several times.

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell08 June 2006 09:19 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Anouk

>you say that john lennon's treatment of women wasn't a mistake,>and that he was just selfish.

>so why can't selfish behaviour be a mistake, why does it have to be>one or the other.

A mistake is something you do one, and then learn from. Not something you do repeatedly.

>it is obvious to me that Lennons's fans, had already forgiveen him by

>the time of his death, 1980

I really don't see what it has to do with his fans - it was his wife that he was hurting, not his fans.

>The positive impact which he had on people outweighs any selfish>behaviour he had with women in the 60's .

That's a matter of opinion, which I disagree with.

>many would consider, bill clinton's, behaviour with Monica lewinsky>as selfish, however among people who like>him, they have forgiven him, because they like him. overall.

Once again, this is down to the people he hurt to forgive him, not his political supporters. As I recall his wife left him over it.

BB

Peter

June 9, 2006

Behaved badly???

On Behalf Of jo08 June 2006 20:52 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

You only have to live the change if you have something to change, if you have behaved badly in some way.

Jo

That's why we have to live the change to understand it more and why it is a long process and why we are likely to find we keep making mistakes. That's why we have a fundamentally different view of Lennon. I find living ones' difficulties interesting, and living them honestly admirable. You want perfection and you want it now (not that I wouldn't, but ...., well you get my drift).

June 9, 2006

so, I am a loud mouth hispanic girl, with some jewish instruction. do they have those in wales or england?

i wish they had them here in nz...

peace

colin

-

Anouk Sickler

Thursday, June 08, 2006 6:49 PM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

June 9, 2006

jealous guy could'n't have been written by an average song writer only by a musical genius with fantastic depth.

-

Peter Kebbell

Thursday, June 08, 2006 10:41 PM

Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

>What idolisation? Everyone speaking up for him seems to agree he was imperfect!

They also seem to attribute him with all wonder of powers he didn't have. Like single handedly stopping the Vietnam war.... that is idolisation...

To me, he was an average songwriter with a few nice ideas in some of his songs - but to be honest, when I'm involved in peace activism, I know about 15 songs which have been written by friends which are just as good as Imagine, and very powerful to sing while taking part in peace activism! Lennon merely had the advantage of already being incredibly famous when he started getting involved in these things - it doesn't make him any better than anyone else.

BB

Peter

June 9, 2006

There are some very good rock/metal bands from Finland - and most

dress normally :-)

Jo

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> That'll teach you then ....

>

> Jo

>

> -

> " Michael Benis " <michaelbenis

>

> Thursday, June 08, 2006 7:42 PM

> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Sorry for any confusion. I was referring to the bit you chopped,

where

> someone (Jo?) was saying don't go away....

>

> Thta's was all the lighten up was about. I found the orginal stuff

very

> po-faced about Lennon and was messing about a bit then (wiht

the " and

> more... and more... " )....

>

> If only I'd known:-)

>

On

> Behalf Of earthstrm

> 07 June 2006 13:48

>

> Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Hi Michael

>

> I am light and I wasn't being mean either. So no need for me to

lighten up,

> I was being complimentary when I said I was glad that you posted

more. Your

> earlier one line statements left us nothing to go on and I like

that you are

> sharing more info with us.

>

> Someone, I think Jo, asked if Lennon was responsible for ending the

war and

> you replied " Yes and more " . That was what I was commenting on.

Anouk always

> give us a lot of info so I that know it wasn't Anouk.

>

> Nikki

>

> , " Michael Benis "

> <michaelbenis@> wrote:

> >

> > Hey, Nikki. Lighten up! No one person was responsible for ending

> any war.

> >

> > Anyway, I think you're confusing me with someone else, maybe

Anouk.

> >

> > Our choices aren't always what we think we want. Often we find out

> they

> > weren't, though. Life isn't a straight line. Even gods are

> reported to have

> > changed their minds.... And even Marx wrote " man may make history,

> but he

> > does not make it as he chooses " (14th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon).

> >

> > Lennon was in the journey for real and exposed himself warts and

> all... I

> > wish that were more common.

> >

> > He was also very fond of chocolate.....

> >

>

June 9, 2006

Everything I would have thought. Surely people wouldn't spend money

on an illegal substance that has bad health implications, and takes

away their judgement, unless they felt a need to get away from their

present life.

Jo

, " Michael Benis " <michaelbenis

wrote:

>

> What's need got to do with? No, hang on, that's not how the song

went...

>

> _____

>

On

> Behalf Of jo

> 08 June 2006 23:05

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> I haven't - no need for it :-)

>

> Jo

>

> -

> peter VV <swpgh01

>

> Thursday, June 08, 2006 7:33 PM

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> He was well known for his weed-a-thons at the time, me I am not

perfect, who

> is? I have also smoked a bit when I was younger, no where near as

much as he

> did, but found out it f*ckd my head up, so stopped. Did you ever do

any

> drugs?

>

> The Valley Vegan...............

>

> Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:

>

> are you sure,

> there were lots of drugs involved at these Bed-In for peace,

> or are you just trying to put him down?

>

> I'm glad you are so perfect, and have stayed off drugs all of your

life.

>

> , peter VV wrote:

> >

> > Well they were titled BED-IN FOR PEACE , and I belive they were

> protests against the Vietnam war................then again, it was

> their honeymoon, and there were a lot of drugs involved, mostly in

> Hilton hotels suites, so not a lot of effort required! I could do

that!

> >

> > The Valley Vegan..........................

>

To send an email to -

>

June 9, 2006

Well - I am allowed to be po-faced.

Jo

, " Michael Benis " <michaelbenis

wrote:

>

> Not pulling anything. That's what I wrote way back in a light

moment, amused

> at all the po-faced moralising about Lennon.

>

> Yes... and more....

>

> _____

>

On

> Behalf Of jo

> 08 June 2006 20:50

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Don't try to pull that one Michael.

>

> Jo

>

> -

> Michael Benis <michaelbenis

>

> Thursday, June 08, 2006 11:51 AM

> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> You seem to be mistaking your own rhetoric for what other people

have

> written -unless you're referring to my satirical " yes and more "

comments....

>

> _____

>

On

> Behalf Of Peter Kebbell

> 08 June 2006 11:42

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Hi Michael

>

> >What idolisation? Everyone speaking up for him seems to agree he

was

> imperfect!

>

> They also seem to attribute him with all wonder of powers he didn't

have.

> Like single handedly stopping the Vietnam war.... that is

idolisation...

>

> To me, he was an average songwriter with a few nice ideas in some

of his

> songs - but to be honest, when I'm involved in peace activism, I

know about

> 15 songs which have been written by friends which are just as good

as

> Imagine, and very powerful to sing while taking part in peace

activism!

> Lennon merely had the advantage of already being incredibly famous

when he

> started getting involved in these things - it doesn't make him any

better

> than anyone else.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

June 9, 2006

It is too difficult to argue with someone when they keep changing

their argument. I think you are 'discussing for discussions sake'.

Jo

, " Michael Benis " <michaelbenis

wrote:

>

> Oh dear!

>

> Admonition instead of discussion...

>

> _____

>

On

> Behalf Of jo

> 08 June 2006 20:53

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> It would be better not to try to turn around your arguments Michael.

>

> Jo

>

> -

> Michael Benis <michaelbenis

>

> Thursday, June 08, 2006 12:26 PM

> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Well, if someone posts a satirical comment asking whether somebody

else

> thought Lennon was single-handedly capable of stopping the Vietnam

war (I

> couldn't believe that was a straight question), it doesn't seem to

me

> illegitimate to simply reply " yes and more..... "

>

> By the way, you seem to have missed the point yourself: the " Lennon

> praisers " aren't saying that he was perfect, but the " Lennon

denigrators "

> seem to be stating that unless he was perfect and had changed the

course of

> the Vietnam war single-handed he shouldn't be worthy of

their " adulation " .

>

> But then, maybe all this rhetoric is now starting to get a little

out of

> control?

>

> _____

>

On

> Behalf Of Peter Kebbell

> 08 June 2006 12:02

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Hi Michael

>

> >You seem to be mistaking your own rhetoric for what other people

have

> written -unless you're

> > referring to my satirical " yes and more " comments....

>

> Oh, I see, it was satirical was it... glad you clarified that (and,

yes,

> this is sarcasm)!

>

> BTW - you seem to have got us confused - I haven't said anything

about

> Lennon being wonderful - that was you....

>

> BB

> Peter

>

June 9, 2006

Hi Michael

I'm gonna have to delete some of this as I don't have time to do the whole lot, but I'll just get rid of the bits where we're insulting each other ;-)

>But I would be intrigued to hear how you think objectification could occur

> without stereotyping.

>This is much more intersting. The problem is that people who went to make change, found

> themselves repeating so much of what they thought they'd left behind them.

The problem with

> people in power isn't them, it's all of us who " legitimate " them.

I agree - but when they control the main sources of our information, it's hard to get people to think in any other way about them, let alone anything else!

>Do you mean stereotyping as in creating a fixed image or as in polarities?

Well, polarities is a whol other subject which is very interesting, but I'd rather not get into right now!

>I mean objectification in terms of relating to a part of a whole as if it were that whole and vice

> versa. Or of equating a stimulus with desire.

I think of objectification as observing people as objects - as commodities, rather than as individuals worthy of respect. That's not the same thing as equating stimulus with desire.

> They watch for the person that enables this to happen. There is a risk that every person they

> meet is obectified in terms of can they/can't they make this happen. Someone may fall in

> love with someone they believe who can make this happen - sexually or not sexually - and

> continue to see that person as an object.

I don't see that as objectification. Everyone has some sort of subconscious " list " of what they like in other people, be that friends, colleagues, family or lovers - that doesn't mean that they consciously compare everyone they meet to that list, and " mark " the person out of 10 accordingly.

>I'm not sure that's stereotyping really, but it's certainly objectification.

I disagree - it's neither.

>A lot of poeple really thought the world would change totally with the civil war, the revolution,

> the end of the V war, communes and the alternativer society, feminist radicalism.

Terms like " civil war " are a bit difficult, as I'm not sure which country you're in - I guess the mention of " the revolution " makes it America? So, on that basis, both the American Civil War and American Independence had a *huge* impact on the world, as has radical feminism. I have no idea what the V war is - I'm guessing that we have a different name for it in the UK. Communes have rarely attempted to change the world for anyone other than those involved - it's an alternative way of life to capitalism, which some people prefer. Although, the mayor of Stirling did make the statement that our society could learn a lot from the way that the Eco-Village at the G8 was run, so maybe there is some small impact starting to occur....

> They really believed their analyses were for all time, not just their time.

I think that is often a problem with ideologies.

> The problem is how to deal with that limitation. How to live change even if you don't totally

> change everything, especially in yourself and all at once. It's a bit like the dialogue we are

>having, (and again it's my interperetation and hopefully you won't label me because of it) in

> that you seem to believe that we can achieve an understanding for all time by understanding

> the labels and therefore completely free ourselves of any objectification/-ism, whereas I

> suspect we'll find that's just another understanding of one time - and possibly even an old

> understanding reunderstood (repeating the same mistake).

I believe we can start down a path to a more genuinely egalitarian society by challenging the labels. I have no idea where that path will lead, or what society will look like if / when these changes in thinking occur. I know how I would like to see the world run, but I'm also aware that there is no perfect solution for the imperfections of our species....

>Just bang on at me. I'll dig up some specific examples, names of works (lousy at

> remembering that) etc.

Will do.

>Maybe. One of the difficulties is that there aren't any neat divisions. We can't separate sex

> from love as in romantic love, from love as in caring, from the construction of identify, from

> hierarchy, from power games, from etc. etc

I think the problem is that sex has become something " dirty " in our society. Something that adults are embarassed to discuss with their children, thereby making it appear " naughty " and " wrong " . I think that rather than attempting to seperate sex from all those things you mention, we would be better served by seperating it from the stigma that it has been given, firstly by Christianity, and enhanced by Victorian values....

BB

Peter

June 9, 2006

Well, I'll go with that, but is it necessarily a bad thing to briefly

experience another perspective?

On

Behalf Of heartwerk

09 June 2006 08:00

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Everything I would have thought. Surely people wouldn't spend money on an

illegal substance that has bad health implications, and takes away their

judgement, unless they felt a need to get away from their present life.

Jo

, " Michael Benis " <michaelbenis

wrote:

>

> What's need got to do with? No, hang on, that's not how the song

went...

>

> _____

>

On

> Behalf Of jo

> 08 June 2006 23:05

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> I haven't - no need for it :-)

>

> Jo

>

> -

> peter VV <swpgh01

>

> Thursday, June 08, 2006 7:33 PM

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> He was well known for his weed-a-thons at the time, me I am not

perfect, who

> is? I have also smoked a bit when I was younger, no where near as

much as he

> did, but found out it f*ckd my head up, so stopped. Did you ever do

any

> drugs?

>

> The Valley Vegan...............

>

> Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:

>

> are you sure,

> there were lots of drugs involved at these Bed-In for peace,

> or are you just trying to put him down?

>

> I'm glad you are so perfect, and have stayed off drugs all of your

life.

>

> , peter VV wrote:

> >

> > Well they were titled BED-IN FOR PEACE , and I belive they were

> protests against the Vietnam war................then again, it was

> their honeymoon, and there were a lot of drugs involved, mostly in

> Hilton hotels suites, so not a lot of effort required! I could do

that!

> >

> > The Valley Vegan..........................

>

To send an email to -

>

June 9, 2006

Of course - and I to be amused. Or indeeed po-faced myself....

On

Behalf Of heartwerk

09 June 2006 08:02

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Well - I am allowed to be po-faced.

Jo

, " Michael Benis " <michaelbenis

wrote:

>

> Not pulling anything. That's what I wrote way back in a light

moment, amused

> at all the po-faced moralising about Lennon.

>

> Yes... and more....

>

> _____

>

On

> Behalf Of jo

> 08 June 2006 20:50

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Don't try to pull that one Michael.

>

> Jo

>

> -

> Michael Benis <michaelbenis

>

> Thursday, June 08, 2006 11:51 AM

> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> You seem to be mistaking your own rhetoric for what other people

have

> written -unless you're referring to my satirical " yes and more "

comments....

>

> _____

>

On

> Behalf Of Peter Kebbell

> 08 June 2006 11:42

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Hi Michael

>

> >What idolisation? Everyone speaking up for him seems to agree he

was

> imperfect!

>

> They also seem to attribute him with all wonder of powers he didn't

have.

> Like single handedly stopping the Vietnam war.... that is

idolisation...

>

> To me, he was an average songwriter with a few nice ideas in some

of his

> songs - but to be honest, when I'm involved in peace activism, I

know about

> 15 songs which have been written by friends which are just as good

as

> Imagine, and very powerful to sing while taking part in peace

activism!

> Lennon merely had the advantage of already being incredibly famous

when he

> started getting involved in these things - it doesn't make him any

better

> than anyone else.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

June 9, 2006

Hi Colin

> jealous guy could'n't have been written by an average song writer only by a musical genius

> with fantastic depth.

Most of Lennon's material is three chord songs. I was writing that sort of stuff when I was 12. As someone once said, Tony Clarkin could have knocked out a whole Beatles album in his lunch hour...

BB

Peter

June 9, 2006

Hi Michael

>Well, I'll go with that, but is it necessarily a bad thing to briefly

>experience another perspective?

I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily, but I do wonder why people find it necessary to take drugs to experience that perspective when it's so easy to do it through ecstatic meditation techniques... and, since you still have a certain amount of control with those techniques, you can actually interact in that different perspective, rather than watch from afar :-)

BB

Peter

June 9, 2006

Lots of different ways - music, dance, meditation, love etc. They're not mutually exclusive. Got to admit, though, I never found ecstatic meditation that easy..... certainly not as easy as popping a pill - not to say that makes the pill any better or worse though...

PS: What's the BB stand for? I can't quite figure that out....

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell09 June 2006 10:17 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

>Well, I'll go with that, but is it necessarily a bad thing to briefly

>experience another perspective?

I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily, but I do wonder why people find it necessary to take drugs to experience that perspective when it's so easy to do it through ecstatic meditation techniques... and, since you still have a certain amount of control with those techniques, you can actually interact in that different perspective, rather than watch from afar :-)

BB

Peter

June 9, 2006

Hi Michael

>Lots of different ways - music, dance, meditation, love etc. They're not mutually exclusive.

Not at all - but from my experience they tend to take you to the same sort of place (OK, I've only ever done the drugs thing by osmosis, but several other methods I've tried).

> Got to admit, though, I never found ecstatic meditation that easy..... certainly not as easy as

> popping a pill - not to say that makes the pill any better or worse though...

But the results of ecstatic meditation seem to be much more powerful from what people who've tried both have told me.

>PS: What's the BB stand for? I can't quite figure that out....

I use it for " Bright Blessings " - a sort of Pagan type greeting. A lot of others use it for Blessed Be.

BB

Peter

June 9, 2006

Hi Michael

>It doesn't have to be complex to be good - that goes for music as much as for ideas.... :-)

That's very true, but it doesn't take a great deal of imagination to write a three chord song, so if you're going to write three chord songs, they need something else to make them stand out from all the other three chord songs. The Beatles had that in the enthusiasm and quality of their performance, which is what made them so popular - but to be honest, the basic songs are pretty basic, and in most cases aren't even particularly imaginative lyrics. Until, of course, you get to the psychedelic era when it all just went very weird...

BB

Peter

June 9, 2006

Well then, let's stop it. There's no point carrying on this way.

Frankly, I find it sad that you and Peter are going for the ad hominem

put-downs and telling me what I should and shouldn't do, that I'm twisting

arguments, or that I'm discussing for discussion's sake, or that I'm

engaging in power-play. What is that itself if not power play and twisting

the argument? I find it especially strange since the serious exchange

started in response to Peter writing that he, as a feminist activist found

it offensive to him that anyone should call Lennon a feminist: right from

the start there we were with the labels, the use of " offensive " to attack

but not exchange views (as if the problem of the offensiveness always lies

in who is " causing " the offence and not who is " finding " it) and a bid to

control the discourse and its language. I didn't raise all that, I reckoned

he was just irritated and I wanted to know more about where he was coming

from and to discuss what I thought we both care about.

Anyway, so now you write you want the discussion to end. These are the

patterns of behaviour that caused much communication to break down in the

European feminist, radical and anarchist circles in the seventies and early

eighties.

Equally, I know that the gay and bi community, who go through some real hard

work in their own identity, and the radical feminists and the separatists

and the " new men " of the seventies, all were no less engaged in challenging

our inherited " stereotypes " , assumptions and labels, nor - despite Butler's

assertions - was the reification of gender relations she identifies as

widespread as she claims. In fact it was because it wasn't that she was able

to write what she did. We believed, as Peter does and you yourself as far as

I can gather (mainly from your posts about mistakes), that we could access

wrong and right utterly, here and now, but then we found that so much of how

were relating was what we'd hope to leave behind - that we were still

hurting and distorting each other in the " old " ways.

Mind Games. Lennon didn't invent it the perception or the label, he just

came up with a song. That doesn't mean we all stopped changing or that we

stopped bringing this out into a political/activist arena, but it does mean

that our take on " mistakes " changed - not because we accepted them, but

because we still wanted to change. Even if you take a look at what Lennon

was having problems with after Sean's birth, which you referred to very

critically in one of your posts, that's where some of the difficulty was.

How do you make something beautiful for your kids when so much of who you

are and how you feel and behave comes from or is what you want to change?

Lot's of people get depressed in this situation. It's bit self-centred,

sure, when the kid needs you, but they know that, too. Why do you think they

find it depressing?

I don't find it helpful to judge these situations the way you and Peter have

been judging Lennon or me.

So I don't find an us and them on man/feminist man, pre-Butler/post-Butler

feminists etc. helpful or convincing either - especially if one is talking

about going beyond " stereotypes " . I prefer to try explore things, even if it

means I can go on and on and on....

At least Lennon didn't go for any " us and them " labelling: in Woman is the

Nigger of the World, it's all " we " - he doesn't portray himself as some

feminist man who's not got any problems any more, he's asking " why am I

doing this to the people I love? these things that are hurtful and

manipulative and absurd? "

Anyway, let's leave it there.... Sorry you think it's discussion for

discussion's sake...

Mike

On

Behalf Of heartwerk

09 June 2006 08:10

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

It is too difficult to argue with someone when they keep changing their

argument. I think you are 'discussing for discussions sake'.

Jo

, " Michael Benis " <michaelbenis

wrote:

>

> Oh dear!

>

> Admonition instead of discussion...

>

> _____

>

On

> Behalf Of jo

> 08 June 2006 20:53

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> It would be better not to try to turn around your arguments Michael.

>

> Jo

>

June 9, 2006

I have to run, about to leave to go teaching over the weekend. Complete mess on my part about Civil War and revolution. Wonderful example of ethnocentricity. Was thinking English Civil War (following on from your mention of the Levellers) and French Revolution. Sorry for the confusion. Agree with some "not objectification" comments - but think it's very borderline (and apart from anything else just depends on the definition , but it certainly stops one treating individuals as such - we're always "filtering" each other. Its because there are so many borderlines and filters that I'm not sure the clear-cut categories/definitions are that useful apart from for convenience (it's another way of treating non-physical problems as if they were physical objects) - maybe the movements across and between them tells as much as the "object labels".

Cheers

Mike

PPS If you're ever over in the UK, look me up.

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell09 June 2006 09:57 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

I'm gonna have to delete some of this as I don't have time to do the whole lot, but I'll just get rid of the bits where we're insulting each other ;-)

>But I would be intrigued to hear how you think objectification could occur

> without stereotyping.

>This is much more intersting. The problem is that people who went to make change, found

> themselves repeating so much of what they thought they'd left behind them. The problem with

> people in power isn't them, it's all of us who "legitimate" them.

I agree - but when they control the main sources of our information, it's hard to get people to think in any other way about them, let alone anything else!

>Do you mean stereotyping as in creating a fixed image or as in polarities?

Well, polarities is a whol other subject which is very interesting, but I'd rather not get into right now!

>I mean objectification in terms of relating to a part of a whole as if it were that whole and vice

> versa. Or of equating a stimulus with desire.

I think of objectification as observing people as objects - as commodities, rather than as individuals worthy of respect. That's not the same thing as equating stimulus with desire.

> They watch for the person that enables this to happen. There is a risk that every person they

> meet is obectified in terms of can they/can't they make this happen. Someone may fall in

> love with someone they believe who can make this happen - sexually or not sexually - and

> continue to see that person as an object.

I don't see that as objectification. Everyone has some sort of subconscious "list" of what they like in other people, be that friends, colleagues, family or lovers - that doesn't mean that they consciously compare everyone they meet to that list, and "mark" the person out of 10 accordingly.

>I'm not sure that's stereotyping really, but it's certainly objectification.

I disagree - it's neither.

>A lot of poeple really thought the world would change totally with the civil war, the revolution,

> the end of the V war, communes and the alternativer society, feminist radicalism.

Terms like "civil war" are a bit difficult, as I'm not sure which country you're in - I guess the mention of "the revolution" makes it America? So, on that basis, both the American Civil War and American Independence had a *huge* impact on the world, as has radical feminism. I have no idea what the V war is - I'm guessing that we have a different name for it in the UK. Communes have rarely attempted to change the world for anyone other than those involved - it's an alternative way of life to capitalism, which some people prefer. Although, the mayor of Stirling did make the statement that our society could learn a lot from the way that the Eco-Village at the G8 was run, so maybe there is some small impact starting to occur....

> They really believed their analyses were for all time, not just their time.

I think that is often a problem with ideologies.

> The problem is how to deal with that limitation. How to live change even if you don't totally

> change everything, especially in yourself and all at once. It's a bit like the dialogue we are

>having, (and again it's my interperetation and hopefully you won't label me because of it) in

> that you seem to believe that we can achieve an understanding for all time by understanding

> the labels and therefore completely free ourselves of any objectification/-ism, whereas I

> suspect we'll find that's just another understanding of one time - and possibly even an old

> understanding reunderstood (repeating the same mistake).

I believe we can start down a path to a more genuinely egalitarian society by challenging the labels. I have no idea where that path will lead, or what society will look like if / when these changes in thinking occur. I know how I would like to see the world run, but I'm also aware that there is no perfect solution for the imperfections of our species....

>Just bang on at me. I'll dig up some specific examples, names of works (lousy at

> remembering that) etc.

Will do.

>Maybe. One of the difficulties is that there aren't any neat divisions. We can't separate sex

> from love as in romantic love, from love as in caring, from the construction of identify, from

> hierarchy, from power games, from etc. etc

I think the problem is that sex has become something "dirty" in our society. Something that adults are embarassed to discuss with their children, thereby making it appear "naughty" and "wrong". I think that rather than attempting to seperate sex from all those things you mention, we would be better served by seperating it from the stigma that it has been given, firstly by Christianity, and enhanced by Victorian values....

BB

Peter

June 9, 2006

Hi Jo

I agree completely and that is even before meeting Peter and just

talking with him.

What gets me is where Michael says :

>What I was really saying to Peter as he came in crusading against

JL as a

> male feminist knight in shining armour was: you may want to

think twice

> about chucking stones and pointing fingers.

>

As if Peter were saying what he says just to make brownie points or

something. That may not be what he means, but it sounds sexist to

me. It is also quite judgemental seeing as he does not know Peter at

all.

BB

Nikki

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> Michael

>

> It may be difficult for you to understand, but if you had met

Peter, you would.

>

> Jo

>

> -

> Michael Benis

>

> Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:33 PM

> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> What I was really saying to Peter as he came in crusading

against JL as a

> male feminist knight in shining armour was: you may want to

think twice

> about chucking stones and pointing fingers.

>

> That's aside from getting his facts right.

>

> In fact the whole message came over as clichéd polemic and an ad

for his own

> righteous feminism.

>

> As for the " you have proved " ... I'm afraid I think that's far too

> simplistic. As is the idea that you suddenly stop being sexist

because you

> say you're a feminist. Sexual politics and the politics of

identity is a

> long haul life change, not a revelation on the road to Damascus,

but many

> over the course of many years, some of which we don't even

notice at them

> time. That's certainly how it's been for me. I certainly wanted

to believe I

> was already as pure as the driven snow when I first started

thinking and

> talking about this stuff years ago, but then found I had a lot

more to learn

> about myself - and I sure as hell don't think I've got " there "

yet.

>

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June 9, 2006

Hi Jo

Very well put, thank you!

BB

Nikki

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> Michael

>

> I think the comments would have been the same whatever sex the

person being talked about. It is the lack of consideration for his

partner that is at fault, and that lack of consideration would have

been the same lack of consideration if shown by a woman to a man, or

in a same sex relationship.

>

> Jo

>

> -

> Michael Benis

>

> Wednesday, June 07, 2006 5:21 PM

> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Answers interspersed as your own:

>

June 9, 2006

Hi Mike

I am in the UK - in the Bristol area. It was the " revolution " that had me thinking you were in the US, but now you've explained...

I wouldn't say that either of them left the world unchanged. The English Civil War had a major impact on all sorts of things - the very nature of the way the world was ruled was changed by that war, and it had a major impact on religion, on quality of education and levels of literacy. It left a major gap in the available labour (in terms of percentage of population killed, the English Civil War ranks number 1 above WWII, WWI, and even the Black Death), which had a major effect on the very basis of English common law and employment, effectively bringing about much more personal freedom for the working classes.

The French Revolution isn't exactly my field, but I'm pretty sure it must have had a fairly significant impact on the world, as without it we'd probably have never ended up with Napoleon...

BB

Peter

On 09/06/06, Michael Benis <michaelbenis wrote:

I have to run, about to leave to go teaching over the weekend. Complete mess on my part about Civil War and revolution. Wonderful example of ethnocentricity. Was thinking English Civil War (following on from your mention of the Levellers) and French Revolution. Sorry for the confusion. Agree with some " not objectification " comments - but think it's very borderline (and apart from anything else just depends on the definition , but it certainly stops one treating individuals as such - we're always " filtering " each other. Its because there are so many borderlines and filters that I'm not sure the clear-cut categories/definitions are that useful apart from for convenience (it's another way of treating non-physical problems as if they were physical objects) - maybe the movements across and between them tells as much as the " object labels " .

June 9, 2006

that has to be the weirdest question i've ever seen on here.....

Colin Sky Jun 8, 2006 6:16 PM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

so, I am a loud mouth hispanic girl, with some jewish instruction. do they have those in wales or england?

i wish they had them here in nz...

peace

colin

-

Anouk Sickler

Thursday, June 08, 2006 6:49 PM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

I don't wanna be no war hero

Don't want a movie made about me

I don't wanna be no war hero

Just get away from the madness I see

June 9, 2006

LOL - lights lighter and sways with Fraggle

Nikki

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

all we are saying...

is give me some beer....

*rocks from side to side*

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