John Lennon, my Inspiration

[Guest guest]

I remember Lucy in the sky.........made me laugh................did Yoko and Paul ever sort out that petty squable over whose name should be first in the songwriting credits? Picture yourself in a boat on a river,With tangerine trees and marmalade skiesSomebody calls you, you answer quite slowly,A girl with kaleidoscope eyes.Cellophane flowers of yellow and green,Towering over your head.Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes,And she's gone.The Valley Vegan..............Colin Sky <colinsky wrote: he wrote / sang that women were the niggers of the world to highlight their unfair status in society...

- Peter Wednesday, June 07, 2006 6:33 AM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration Hi Michael But he hardly constituted the whole feminist

movement.... and I'd also wonder how anyone who treated women with quite such disregard could possibly be classified as a feminist!!!! BB Peter - Michael Benis Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:21 PM RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration He was part of the feminist movement, and more. On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell06 June 2006 16:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration Hi Michael & everyone >>Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam? > Yes, and more So, you wouldn't have said that the feminist movement had anything at all to do with it????? BB Peter Peter H

 

 

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Now your freaking me out, stop it ! Is that mascara your wearing? The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: gee...wot are you planning fer our honeymoon sweetie???? *looks innocent and bats eyelids* peter VV Jun 7, 2006 10:29 AM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration Well they were titled BED-IN FOR PEACE , and I belive they were protests against the Vietnam war................then again, it was their honeymoon,

and there were a lot of drugs involved, mostly in Hilton hotels suites, so not a lot of effort required! I could do that! The Valley Vegan.......................... I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I seePeter H

 

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[Guest guest]

no, thats davey havouc you're thinking of...sorry....

peter VV Jun 7, 2006 10:56 AM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Now your freaking me out, stop it !

Is that mascara your wearing?

 

 

The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

 

gee...wot are you planning fer our honeymoon sweetie????

*looks innocent and bats eyelids*

peter VV Jun 7, 2006 10:29 AM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Well they were titled BED-IN FOR PEACE , and I belive they were protests against the Vietnam war................then again, it was their honeymoon, and there were a lot of drugs involved, mostly in Hilton hotels suites, so not a lot of effort required! I could do that!

 

The Valley Vegan.......................... I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see

Peter H

 

 

 

All new Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine

I don't wanna be no war hero

Don't want a movie made about me

I don't wanna be no war hero

Just get away from the madness I see

[Guest guest]

Hehehe!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: no, thats davey havouc you're thinking of...sorry.... peter VV Jun 7, 2006 10:56 AM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration Now your freaking me out, stop it ! Is that mascara your wearing? The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: gee...wot are you planning fer our honeymoon sweetie???? *looks innocent and bats eyelids* peter VV Jun 7, 2006 10:29 AM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration Well they were titled BED-IN FOR PEACE , and I belive they were protests against the Vietnam war................then again, it was their honeymoon, and there were a lot of drugs involved, mostly in Hilton hotels suites, so not a lot of effort required! I could do that! The Valley Vegan.......................... I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war

hero Just get away from the madness I see Peter H All new Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I seePeter H

 

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[Guest guest]

hey!

watch where yer wavin that thing !!!

Michael Benis Jun 7, 2006 10:46 AM RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

And [waves magin wand] so you shall!

 

 

On Behalf Of peter VV07 June 2006 18:29 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

Well they were titled BED-IN FOR PEACE , and I belive they were protests against the Vietnam war................then again, it was their honeymoon, and there were a lot of drugs involved, mostly in Hilton hotels suites, so not a lot of effort required! I could do that!

 

The Valley Vegan..........................jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

Well it got him publicity - but what for?

 

Jo

 

 

-

earthstrm

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:54 AM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

Yeah, my fav was when he and Yoko spent a week in bed together. That did so much! LOLSorry - I couldn't help it! :)Nikki , "Colin Sky" <colinsky wrote:>> john was a great ambassador for peace and a legend. bless his soul.> > > > > - > peter VV > > Monday, June 05, 2006 5:55 AM> Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration> > > I agree with you Jo, He didnt strike me as a particularly pious individual, in fact George and Paul seemed to do a lot more for charity than he did. He just seemed a very hedonistic person.> > > The Valley Vegan..........>

Peter H

 

 

 

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I don't wanna be no war hero

Don't want a movie made about me

I don't wanna be no war hero

Just get away from the madness I see

[Guest guest]

Hell I aint gonna sign that if I cant have a national holiday for St. Davids day! The Valley Vegan................Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote: hi nikki,i really couldn't point out anything specific,but the fact is that he touched many people, all over the world. don't know how or why, perhaps it was his lyrics. Some people even think that he wasn't abritish man, he was a superhuman. (it sounds funny but it is true.) nobody's perfect, but currently there is a petition going around to have an InternationalWorldwide,John Lennon Holiday. I have signed it, and will cry with happiness when it becomes true. in case anyone's interested here it is.http://www.johnlennonday.com/--- In

, "earthstrm" wrote:>> Really?! Wow, all of those darn protestors must feel pretty stupid.> > Never knew that one man could do so much!> > So uh, what more?> > Nikki - who should have known better than to come back before it was > clear> Sorry guys - go ahead and yell > > > , "Michael Benis" > wrote:> >> > Yes, and more. > > >

[Guest guest]

quiting the public life and doing less and less dont necessarily go hand in hand, you can be a millionaire tax exile recluse and still donate to charity? Did he spend so much time with both sons? btw I thought george was also overated, although I loved the fact that he loved and reguarly played the ukulele! I think that there have always been uptight people in every decade..so dont be too hard on yourself. The Valley Vegan..........Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote: hi peter, yes dylan was in the same league as him. He did less and less because he quit the publiclife to stay home with his son. that was so cool that he could turn back on fame, to take care of a baby. i identify with him and the 1960's in general, because

he was idealistic and so am I. btw, I also loved George. i think that people are too uptight in the 2000's including me.> Seems to me that he did less and less as he grew to the end of histime, George seemed to me to do a lot more for charity and fundraising, but always kept quiet about it ( apart from the Bangeladeshconcert thingy).> And dont even get started on Yoko!> Just my opinion, just as you have yours.> > > The Valley Vegan................

[Guest guest]

There is always hope..................and another beer! Half full thats me! The Valley Vegan.............Colin Sky <colinsky wrote: hi jo. he was basically a good guy. :-) and a legend because he deserved to be. he was human too. everybody makes mistakes, often throughout their lives. but not everybody reaches out to the world with a universal message of peace and hope. john lennon bravely spoke out

against the iraqi war of yesteryear. he sang to the world "all we are saying... is give peace a chance..." when he was brilliant he was brilliant. a true world leader... towards a peaceful world. now there is less hope and no jl. peace colin - heartwerk Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:59 PM Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration It is not unusual to want peace - don't most people - we just don't get the chance to tell the world because we are not famous. On the Yoko point - she must have been right about him needing other women otherwise he would have refused. In interviews with her that I have seen she was very upset by his attitude. Also his first wife was very upset when he

left her. I know these happenings are not unusual but because something is a common happening does not make it any better to hurt people. Aren't we on VeganChat against hurting other beings, including people?Jo , "Anouk Sickler" <zurumato wrote:>> , "jo" <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> >> > I think it is all romanticised somewhat. He was a hard character -> and very> > selfish. He left his first wife and son when he became famous, and> claimed> > to love Yoko very much, yet was constantly unfaithful to her - even> in the> > same house within hearing distance.> > > > I am not a fan.> > > > Jo> > >

> > hi jo, > > are you sure that he was a hard character?> > I do not get that impression, but I was a little kid> when he was alive.> > Perhaps I am romanticism him. > > I do know that his peace message, the Imagine song lives > within my heart, and that he lives in the heart of many > people, through his inspiration, today. > > I think that one must put into perspective what happened.> > He married his high school sweatheart and then suddendly > came into fame and half of the worlds women wanted > to sleep with him. what would many men do?> > he literally had to choose between,> the beatles career and being a normal husband. > He has expressed regret in some interviews. > > I know that his little boy Julian> was living with him and Yoko on the weekends. > and I get the impression that

lots of people were getting> divorces easily back then. > > as far as sleeping with other women..> there is a documentary called Imagine. it is a dvd, which i rented.> > In it he is speaking frankly about his realtionship with yoko. > and in the interview Yoko admits, that she got women for John. > > yes, she actually encouraged him to sleep with other women, > and even got a very good asian friend of hers to sleep with john, (the> asian friend is shown in the video with yoko)> John, says "she thinks I need to sleep with other women and I don't> understand why she wants me to"> > some women that i know in nyc, have open relationships and > get their husbands to sleep with some women or a friend that they choose. > It is not my thing, but for some, Open relationships work.> > It is not very different from the polyamorous people that we

know,> Serene, and Peter's friend Alex from Italy. > > I do not judge, and think that perhaps because he was a celebrity> we are looking at him through a microscope lens. > > I am one of those people that think that sex sometimes is just sex,> but if it is with someone you love it is better. > > I do give him credit for marrying an Asian person, when he could > have had all the girls in the world. > > as I understand it, Interracial marriages, were not so accepted > in the 1960's. > > I also give him credit for marrying, the woman> he loved, despite the fact that this was not encouraged by many people. > > To me that love that he felt for her is > apparent in the gallery pictures of nudes that they took > together, the way that they used to walk hand in hand and> in his devotion to the baby he had with

her.> Peter H

 

 

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But can you please answer why anger and aggression are patriachal? It seems to be pretty evenly spread amongst men and women - so why attribute it to one sex?

 

Jo

 

 

-

Michael Benis

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 6:36 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

 

Please see reply to Peter. There are elements of sexuality that make us very prone to objectifying people. I'll agree that this is certainly helped by the fact that our culture generally makes us prone to conceive of non-physical things, like identity, in terms of objects...

 

 

On Behalf Of jo07 June 2006 18:05 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

Michael

 

Tell me why is anger and aggression patriachal?

 

To say that any behaviour is in the genes is simply not true. People behave exactly the way they ~choose~ to behave. Men are not sexist unless they have been reared sexist and failed to see the faults in it.

 

Jo

 

 

 

-

Michael Benis

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:26 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

 

Well, that's obviously got your goat, which wasn't my intention. But if you like anger and indignation, you stick with it! Does it not occur that you are being both aggressive and offensive yourself in typical patriarchal fashion?

 

Men are sexist, I'm afraid. It's in the genes. The perspective we build on that and what else we are is another matter.

 

I shan't interpret your own reading or your age or judge it as you have seen fit to do with mine.

 

 

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell07 June 2006 12:54 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

Hi Michael

 

>Sure he did all that. He was a man and was sexist like all men are.

 

Ummm - 'scuse me but that's obsolute tosh, and really rather offensive.

 

>I'm, glad you think you've got a handle on what men should be doing with women. But I have

> to say I think it pretty offensive you think you can be involved in feminist activism as a man.

 

Then you really need to do some reading on what feminism is about - it's not about a "battle" between men and women, but about breaking down barriers which seperate men and women.

 

>Turn it into something else, especially just preaching and fighting the old patriarchal good and

> evil let's get offended with righteous indignation and draw up the battle lines way can just

> make it a badge for identity not necessarily living it. So, in my view, turning it into a battle

> where you're on the women's side could be and often is one hell of a manipulation. Many

> feminists have simply written it off as one of the best pick-up lines in the book.

>Take that with a pinch of humour, I'm not meaning to be offensive to you, but I'd rather leave

> that sort of polarised purity stuff in centuries past.

 

Yep, I see that you still have a very 1970s view of radical feminism... you really need to catch up with the feminist movement by some 3 decades before commenting on it....

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Maybe you were high at the time.

 

Jo

 

 

-

peter VV

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 6:53 PM

Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

 

I remember Lucy in the sky.........made me laugh................did Yoko and Paul ever sort out that petty squable over whose name should be first in the songwriting credits?

 

Picture yourself in a boat on a river,With tangerine trees and marmalade skiesSomebody calls you, you answer quite slowly,A girl with kaleidoscope eyes.Cellophane flowers of yellow and green,Towering over your head.Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes,And she's gone.The Valley Vegan..............Colin Sky <colinsky wrote:

 

he wrote / sang that women were the niggers of the world to highlight their unfair status in society...

 

 

 

-

Peter

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 6:33 AM

Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

 

Hi Michael

 

But he hardly constituted the whole feminist movement.... and I'd also wonder how anyone who treated women with quite such disregard could possibly be classified as a feminist!!!!

 

BB

Peter

 

 

-

Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:21 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

 

He was part of the feminist movement, and more.

 

 

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell06 June 2006 16:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

Hi Michael & everyone

 

>>Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?

> Yes, and more

 

So, you wouldn't have said that the feminist movement had anything at all to do with it?????

 

BB

Peter

 

 

Peter H

 

 

 

The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider.

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael

 

>>Yes, I would have answered differently had you been a woman. You would have commented

>> differently about Lennon had he been a woman.

>No I wouldn't!

>I beg to differ. You wouldn't have had access to the same cliched stories of what he did to build your

> judgement on.

 

I find it amusing that you believe you know how I would answer! I can quite categorically say that you are wrong. This has nothing to do with "cliched stories", but to do with people showing respect to one another. I don't see what's so hard about the concept of not doing things which you know will upset the people you love on a regular basis.

 

>Well, firstly, there is a fundamental misapprehension that sexual feelings are related to gender.

>Maybe, but that's not what I was saying. There are components of sexuality with respect to

> objectification that are very inconvenient for gender neutrality. Just as there are assumptions about

> identity as object that have blocked any radical politics of identity and sexuality.

 

I suppose that depends on how you define sexuality. Once again, we're back to heteronormative stereotyping which states that people have to define themselves by the gender of the people they find attractive - either "straight", "gay", or "bi". There's a rapidly growing "Queer Mutiny" movement(s) that is precisely aimed at moving outside of these boxes, and defining people as individuals. Of course, if you define people by their sexual preferences, then you're automatically having to define them by gender, because one without the other becomes non-sensical... which is the whole point! And I don't quite see why you think there has been a "block" on radical politics of identity and sexuality - there's a group where I live which puts on regular events, gives talks, runs alternative festivals etc. with exactly the aim of promoting radical politics of identity and sexuality!

 

>And I do believe that the best way to tackle the issues of sexism is precisely to go beyond labelling - to challenge the heteronormative

> stereotype labels applied by society.

> don't disagree with that, but I think we also have to do more than that. I don't think "labelling" is a

> useful term either. It makes it all sound easy.

 

The ultimate concept is actually quite easy... getting people to think about how they currently "label" others is more difficult.

 

>This still seems to fall into the trap of heteronormative stereotyping. You can only have a relationship with something which you perceive

> to be significant. If gender ceases to be significant, how could you possibly have a relationship with it? I also find it interesting that you

> compare gender (a physical attribute) with jealousy and anger (emotional attributes), when they have absolutely nothing in common - it

> appears to suggest that emotions are related to gender, which is one of the major problems with gender stereotyping.

>I was thinking not of gender, but of sexual attraction/desire - which I acknowledge is a mixture of all

> sorts of things, but can and often does have an "impersonal" side to it that means it can often only be

> described as "sexist" or "objectifying". This does not have to be a simple het male/female thing

> either.

 

I agree that the society we live in does promote this view (just turn on the TV for a few seconds!) That doesn't mean that this is a natural state. In the Western world, we are brought up with images objectifying people as sexual objects (both ways, although more frequently of women), and inherent suggestions that it is "normal" to view "the opposite sex" as objects, rather than as individuals. The LGBT scene has simply replicated this but for "same sex" as well as "opposite". But this is a product of our society, not of our basic nature. Our society has objectified people, and in doing so has made sex an object of power and ownership, rather than an act of love. This is not in any way natural.

 

>Then let's leave the books out of it and call a spade a spade.

 

Well, I think we can still read books - they can be very informative :-)

 

>Couldn't agree more! There! That was nice wasn't it? But there's no point pretending all the change is

> out there and with the status quo. We need to do quite a bit inside ourselves, too, don't we? Or am the

> only one who finds that I'm not always living/being as I'd like?

 

But there's little point in changing only ourselves - that is just the starting point, and, of course, as we go through life we will hopefully come across more and better ideas that we can incorporate into our own lifestyles (heck, we must have all done this in the past just by the fact we're on a vegan list!) But unless people give us suggestions and make us think, we will never be able to change ourselves, so it seems rather unfair not to do the same for other people.

 

>While what you say on Butler is true, her work widened the thinking of "feminist politics" quite dramatically, and was really the starting

>point which has ultimately led to the very recent trend (probably no more than the past 2 years) of absolutely no models whatsoever - of

>challenging the most basic stereotyping of gender and sexuality, and attempting to break out of the heteronormative models.

>Well, I certainly wouldn't say she's had no influence, but I think that's one hell of claim you're making

> for her there, and which certainly loses sight of much of what has been going on in Western artistic

>circles since the half century or so before the French Revolution.

 

Of course there are other influences - I don't know of any movement that can honestly state it has only had one influence in its development. Although I am confused about your comments about Western artistic circles, since the main art that I associate with France immediately prior to the French Revolution (and I'm by no means an art conosieur), is paintings of nude women being objectified!!!!

 

But I would like to hear more of the artistic circles you mention, as this is an area I know little about.

 

>Your's is a selective version (did you read some of the info Anouk posted on this?) and a black and

> white judgement of it. He fucked up big time in some of his crises. So have I. Most of us do.

 

Yep - I've seen interviews with Yoko, where she was clearly unhappy about it. It doesn't really matter *what* it was that she was unhappy about, it's the fact that he continued to do something that made the person he claimed to love unhappy, with very little concern for her feelings on the matter - that doesn't suggest that he viewed her as someone worthy of his respect. I feel that the way that Paul McCartney treated the people he loved to be a much better model than Lennon....

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael

 

>Well, we'll just have to agree to differ... On the other hand we will I hope agree that doesn't mean that all men have to behave in a

> sexist way. Although it's difficult to achieve that if you believe there's nothing sexist about you as a man that you have to

> question and mediate....

 

Jo's actually a woman, but just wanted to point out that your view is still coming from the perspective of gender labelling. Once you get beyond gender labelling, and stop thinking of yourself primarily based on your genitalia, your above sentence ceases to have meaning. I think of myself as an individual first - the fact that I have certain physical traits doesn't really have much impact on that. Just think what a strange society we'd live in if our primary form of division was height - all those people under five foot eight having all the best paid jobs, property rights, and power for centuries, while those over that height had had to fight to get any recognition, to get the right to vote, and to get even basic "equality". It might have once occurred that a Pope had actually been over six foot, but had spent all her time sat down so no-one noticed that she was of inferior status. I'm sure most of us can agree that it would be crazy, yet we accept an equally crazy system without questioning it (mostly)!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

>I remember Lucy in the sky.........made me laugh................did Yoko and Paul ever sort out that petty squable over whose

> name should be first in the songwriting credits?

 

Dunno - but about a year ago it was decided that Paul's name would go first (have no idea who decided it). Funny the things some people squabble over!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

hi colin,

 

i agree with the legend part.

he gets together people in california, seattle and new york

singing in groups about peace, today

he is definately alive in peoples hearts

and his message still rings.

I went to one last december and I felt

like everyone next to me

was my brother and sister.

 

he is saddly missed specialy during these times

of war,

i remember he was often, pictured in the

newspapers of nyc, protesting workers revolutionary

parties with a loudspeaker on the streets

with the people.

 

 

 

, " Colin Sky " <colinsky wrote:

>

> hi jo. he was basically a good guy. :-) and a legend because he

deserved to be. he was human too.

>

> everybody makes mistakes, often throughout their lives.

>

> but not everybody reaches out to the world with a universal message

of peace and hope.

>

> john lennon bravely spoke out against the iraqi war of yesteryear.

[Guest guest]

it was a whimsical demonstration,

to get people's attention, to

get people talking one way or another.

 

 

 

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> Well it got him publicity - but what for?

>

> Jo

>

> -

> earthstrm

>

> Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:54 AM

> Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

>

> Yeah, my fav was when he and Yoko spent a week in bed together. That

> did so much! LOL

>

> Sorry - I couldn't help it!

>

> Nikki

>

> , " Colin Sky " <colinsky@> wrote:

> >

> > john was a great ambassador for peace and a legend. bless his soul.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > -

> > peter VV

> >

> > Monday, June 05, 2006 5:55 AM

> > Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

> >

> >

> > I agree with you Jo, He didnt strike me as a particularly pious

> individual, in fact George and Paul seemed to do a lot more for

> charity than he did. He just seemed a very hedonistic person.

> >

> >

> > The Valley Vegan..........

> >

>

[Guest guest]

are you sure,

there were lots of drugs involved at these Bed-In for peace,

or are you just trying to put him down?

 

I'm glad you are so perfect, and have stayed off drugs all of your life.

 

 

, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> Well they were titled BED-IN FOR PEACE , and I belive they were

protests against the Vietnam war................then again, it was

their honeymoon, and there were a lot of drugs involved, mostly in

Hilton hotels suites, so not a lot of effort required! I could do that!

>

> The Valley Vegan..........................

[Guest guest]

hi michael benis,

 

I agree with this,

 

john's parents abandoned him. his father left when he was five.

and his mother gave him to an Aunt.

 

then when he made contact with his mom again at the age of

17, she is suddenly killed by a car accident after paying him a

visit.

 

all of these events, shaped his life, aften writting songs

about workers rights, and attending demonstrations.

 

often while walking on the streets, he would talk to people

and say " hey I'm just an average guy "

 

it was more the bridge and tunnel people that treated him

as a beatle, although I could be wrong, that is just my impression.

 

 

>

> Lennon hit a lot of bum notes in his life, but that also helped him

get some

> of the " right " notes right.

>

> _____

[Guest guest]

his high school sweatheart got pregnant

and he did the right thing and he married her,

then the beatlemania thing happened

and it just didn't work.

 

he has expressed regret, about not spending time with julian,

which he name after his mom julia, and he taught to play

the drums.

The publicity machines, wouldn't even

allow him to say that he was married to keep the beatles

image intact.

 

He was so saddened by not being there for julian,

that he retired from music just to raise his second son.

 

He was an Evolving person, just like we all are.

 

He loved, Yoko, so that he changed his middle name to Ono.

 

 

 

 

 

, " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab

wrote:

>

> Hi Anouk

>

> I was referring to what Jo was saying in an earlier post about the

way he

> treated Yoko and his first wife...

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

> On 07/06/06, Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:

> >

> > , " Peter " <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Michael

> > >

> > > There's a huge difference between making " mistakes " and treating

> > women like objects to be used as you like (and let's face it, he did a

> > fair amount of that, playing on his fame to get women into bed, and

> > showing absolutely no respect to even the women he claimed to love).

> > I'm not saying that he didn't do some good things, but as someone who

> > is involved in feminist activism, I find the suggestion that someone

> > who treats women that way is a feminist to be rather offensive!

> > >

> > > BB

> > > Peter

> >

> >

> >

> > hi peter,

> >

> > what women are you talking about?

> >

> > I am not familiar with these stories, was this pre-beatle breakup..

> > if so...

> > welll yes of course, Beatles probably slept with whomever they

> > wanted. They were the Beatles!

> >

> > All I know of is the devotion that he showed his wife Yoko, The Album

> > Double Fanstasy was basically

> > written to her. and the single, Woman, is about her. How many

> > husbands do that?

> >

> > A feminist statement he made to me would be hey look world, you

> > called this japanese lady a minority,

> > I call her the woman I chose to marry.

> > You say blondes are beautiful, I say she is beautiful.

> >

> > In fact, it is said that one of the reasons of the beatles breakup

> > was that he wanted to continually involve her in the band. I

> > personally think YOko is supercool.

> > I love her artwork and think that she has a beautiful voice. His

> > album covers were almost always him kissing her.

> >

> > and if you read them, all of the lyrics, in his later albums are

> > intensely personal. They bring you in to the intimate

> > struggles that their mariage faced (or frankly any marriage faces)

> > especially with the pressures of showbusiness.

> >

> > He gave up his music carreer to become a father and raise his son

> > himself. They could be seen walking hand in hand

> > in central park, him carrying the baby in a sling.

> >

> > I say he who's marriage is perfect, cast the first stone.

> >

> > the day that he died, I will remember forever, all the grownups

> > around me were buzzing " a beatle has died "

> > a beatle has died. It was horrible, we all cried and in the

> > streets suddendly everyone started talking to each

> > other. His death brought everyone closer together in sadness. my

> > mom brought me over to the police line and we

> > held candles. It was a day of mourning for all of manhattan.

> >

> > If you go into central park there is a place called strawberry fields,

> > near 72nd st. the dakota building where they lived,

> > strawberry fields was designed by a million dollars that yoko

> > gave to the park. there is a single word imagine, in a mosaic in

> > the floor in which people leave flowers.... .

> >

> > this place brings together all kinds of hippies from all over the

> > world... I will be there next week.

> >

> >

> > > -

> > > Michael Benis

> > >

> > > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM

> > > RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes

yourself! :-)

> > >

> > > He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to put

> > down what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make a

> > difference etc.

[Guest guest]

Hi peter,

 

you say that john lennon's treatment of women wasn't a mistake,

and that he was just selfish.

 

so why can't selfish behaviour be a mistake, why does it have to be

one or the other.

 

it is obvious to me that Lennons's fans, had already forgiveen him by

the time of his death, 1980

otherwise, there wouldn't have been such a tremoundouse outporing of

people, and vigils all over the world.

 

most people over a certain age remember exactly where they were when

he died.

just like most peole over a certain age remember where they where

when JFK died.

 

The positive impact which he had on people outweighs any selfish

behaviour he had with women in the 60's .

 

many would consider, bill clinton's, behaviour with Monica lewinsky

as selfish, however among people who like

him, they have forgiven him, because they like him. overall.

 

his first wife cynthia, i don't believe is a bitter woman

today, she sounds as though she has forgiven him, when she

gives interviews.

 

and Yoko has certainly forgeven him. Why can't we.

 

Why must we look at a behaviour he had when he was young.

And not look at the WHOLE man and the Whole, of what he did.

 

there is a jewish saying

 

" a man is who he is, not who he used to be "

 

-anouk

 

 

 

> I find the term " Old Testament " to be rather amusing. My judgement

of John

> Lennon's " personal politics " is the fact that he showed little

regard for

> the feelings even of those people he claimed to love the most. That

really

> isn't a matter of making mistakes, but is a matter of utter

selfishness. In

> the context of John Lennon's treatment of those he loved, I really don't

> think that having sex with people within ear-shot of your parter, in the

> full knowledge that she objects to it, is not a " mistake " - and doing it

> repeatedly does not suggest that he learnt from it, either. I do think

> Lennon had some nice political ideas, but that doesn't necessarily

make him

> a nice person!

[Guest guest]

hi jo,

 

to err is human,

john lennon had a period, where he had a problem

with heroin. He then quit, and wrote a song

called " cold turkey "

 

I think that the fact that he showed us his human side

and how he evolved and learned from his mistakes

is the same reason

people identify so much with him.

 

 

 

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> You assume that everybody is going to make mistakes - why is that?

>

> Jo

>

>

>

> -

> Michael Benis

>

> Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM

> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

>

>

> Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes

yourself! :-)

>

> He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to put

down what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make a

difference etc.

>

> I'll admit the " and more " was a bit of wind-up - but he was

honest enough about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint,

but then let's leave that for the true believers....

>

> Of course he wasn't vegan either....

>

> But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that

>

>

>

>

----------

>

On Behalf Of Peter

> 06 June 2006 19:33

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

>

> Hi Michael

>

> But he hardly constituted the whole feminist movement.... and

I'd also wonder how anyone who treated women with quite such disregard

could possibly be classified as a feminist!!!!

>

> BB

> Peter

>

> -

> Michael Benis

>

> Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:21 PM

> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

>

>

> He was part of the feminist movement, and more.

>

>

>

>

--------

>

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell

> 06 June 2006 16:06

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

>

> Hi Michael & everyone

>

> >>Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?

> > Yes, and more

>

> So, you wouldn't have said that the feminist movement had

anything at all to do with it?????

>

> BB

> Peter

>

[Guest guest]

it is because I think he was

the Elvis of the Intellectuals

 

-anouk

 

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> I am totally surprised and confounded by the adoration given to him

- it doesn't seem to be the same in the UK. Sure there are lots of

people who liked him and his music, but this idolisation seems a

little strange.

>

> Jo

>

> -

> Colin Sky

>

> Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:26 AM

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

>

>

> hi jo. he was basically a good guy. :-) and a legend because he

deserved to be. he was human too.

>

> everybody makes mistakes, often throughout their lives.

>

> but not everybody reaches out to the world with a universal

message of peace and hope.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo,

 

I do have an interest about the past, the world wasn't born

on the day I was.

 

I turned 34 on november 2. I suppose that is what they call

the generation x, but who cares.

 

I did read newspapers when I was a kid,

The Daily News(in nyc) often, reported on John Lennon.

 

I lived between Riverside and Fort Washington Avenue. Looking out

on the river to New Jersey.

 

My babysitters were old Jewish men. Intellectuals

who told me all about the times before

I was born.

 

one of them Mr. Weinberger, who lived on 161 ST. was

my favorite, he had no walls, I mean nobody had

seen the color of his walls because his

walls were filled with books.

 

sometimes, I would show up in the mornings and he would

just hand me a book without saying a word. I would read it

religiously all day and then give it back to him.

he rarely ventured out of his apartment, because he had

a hunchback.

 

since, I went to a very rough, tough ghetto school,

I think that he wanted to rescue me through books.

 

so, I am a loud mouth hispanic girl, with some jewish

instruction.

 

do they have those in wales or england?

 

 

 

, " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> Can I ask how old you are Anouk and how old you were in the 60s.

>

> Jo

>

> -

> Anouk Sickler

>

> Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:32 AM

> Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

>

>

> hi peter,

>

> yes dylan was in the same league as him.

> He did less and less because he quit the public

> life to stay home with his son.

>

>

[Guest guest]

in plain English, please ?

 

Jo

 

-

Colin Sky

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 5:01 AM

Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

hi ... please... if u can find a spare daisy... put one down for me...

 

peace

 

colin.

 

-

Anouk Sickler

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:31 PM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

, "Peter" <metalscarab wrote:>> Hi Michael> > There's a huge difference between making "mistakes" and treatingwomen like objects to be used as you like (and let's face it, he did afair amount of that, playing on his fame to get women into bed, andshowing absolutely no respect to even the women he claimed to love).I'm not saying that he didn't do some good things, but as someone whois involved in feminist activism, I find the suggestion that someonewho treats women that way is a feminist to be rather offensive!> > BB> Peterhi peter, what women are you talking about?I am not familiar with these stories, was this pre-beatle breakup..if so... welll yes of course, Beatles probably slept with whomever theywanted. They were the Beatles!All I know of is the devotion that he showed his wife Yoko, The AlbumDouble Fanstasy was basically written to her. and the single, Woman, is about her. How manyhusbands do that?A feminist statement he made to me would be hey look world, youcalled this japanese lady a minority, I call her the woman I chose to marry. You say blondes are beautiful, I say she is beautiful. In fact, it is said that one of the reasons of the beatles breakup was that he wanted to continually involve her in the band. Ipersonally think YOko is supercool. I love her artwork and think that she has a beautiful voice. Hisalbum covers were almost always him kissing her. and if you read them, all of the lyrics, in his later albums areintensely personal. They bring you in to the intimatestruggles that their mariage faced (or frankly any marriage faces) especially with the pressures of showbusiness. He gave up his music carreer to become a father and raise his sonhimself. They could be seen walking hand in handin central park, him carrying the baby in a sling. I say he who's marriage is perfect, cast the first stone. the day that he died, I will remember forever, all the grownupsaround me were buzzing " a beatle has died" a beatle has died. It was horrible, we all cried and in thestreets suddendly everyone started talking to each other. His death brought everyone closer together in sadness. mymom brought me over to the police line and we held candles. It was a day of mourning for all of manhattan. If you go into central park there is a place called strawberry fields,near 72nd st. the dakota building where they lived, strawberry fields was designed by a million dollars that yoko gave to the park. there is a single word imagine, in a mosaic inthe floor in which people leave flowers.... . this place brings together all kinds of hippies from all over theworld... I will be there next week. > - > Michael Benis > > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration> > > > Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes yourself! :-)> > He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to putdown what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make adifference etc.> > I'll admit the "and more" was a bit of wind-up - but he was honestenough about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint, butthen let's leave that for the true believers....> > Of course he wasn't vegan either....> > But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that> >

[Guest guest]

He makes people feel better then? That's okay - but it doesn't mean he had

any effect on politics.

 

Jo

 

-

" Anouk Sickler " <zurumato

 

Thursday, June 08, 2006 6:26 AM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

hi colin,

 

i agree with the legend part.

he gets together people in california, seattle and new york

singing in groups about peace, today

he is definately alive in peoples hearts

and his message still rings.

I went to one last december and I felt

like everyone next to me

was my brother and sister.

 

he is saddly missed specialy during these times

of war,

i remember he was often, pictured in the

newspapers of nyc, protesting workers revolutionary

parties with a loudspeaker on the streets

with the people.

 

 

 

, " Colin Sky " <colinsky wrote:

>

> hi jo. he was basically a good guy. :-) and a legend because he

deserved to be. he was human too.

>

> everybody makes mistakes, often throughout their lives.

>

> but not everybody reaches out to the world with a universal message

of peace and hope.

>

> john lennon bravely spoke out against the iraqi war of yesteryear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

>you say that john lennon's treatment of women wasn't a mistake,>and that he was just selfish.

>so why can't selfish behaviour be a mistake, why does it have to be>one or the other.

A mistake is something you do one, and then learn from. Not something you do repeatedly.

 

>it is obvious to me that Lennons's fans, had already forgiveen him by

>the time of his death, 1980

 

I really don't see what it has to do with his fans - it was his wife that he was hurting, not his fans.

 

>The positive impact which he had on people outweighs any selfish>behaviour he had with women in the 60's .

That's a matter of opinion, which I disagree with.

 

>many would consider, bill clinton's, behaviour with Monica lewinsky>as selfish, however among people who like>him, they have forgiven him, because they like him. overall.

Once again, this is down to the people he hurt to forgive him, not his political supporters. As I recall his wife left him over it.

 

BB

Peter