John Lennon, my Inspiration

June 6, 2006

Hi Michael

There's a huge difference between making "mistakes" and treating women like objects to be used as you like (and let's face it, he did a fair amount of that, playing on his fame to get women into bed, and showing absolutely no respect to even the women he claimed to love). I'm not saying that he didn't do some good things, but as someone who is involved in feminist activism, I find the suggestion that someone who treats women that way is a feminist to be rather offensive!

BB

Peter

-

Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes yourself! :-)

He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to put down what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make a difference etc.

I'll admit the "and more" was a bit of wind-up - but he was honest enough about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint, but then let's leave that for the true believers....

Of course he wasn't vegan either....

But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that

On Behalf Of Peter06 June 2006 19:33 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

But he hardly constituted the whole feminist movement.... and I'd also wonder how anyone who treated women with quite such disregard could possibly be classified as a feminist!!!!

BB

Peter

-

Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:21 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

He was part of the feminist movement, and more.

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell06 June 2006 16:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael & everyone

>>Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?

> Yes, and more

So, you wouldn't have said that the feminist movement had anything at all to do with it?????

BB

Peter

June 6, 2006

wow

ya'll have some really deep emotions/feelings/comments on john lennon....

interesting....

I don't wanna be no war hero

Don't want a movie made about me

I don't wanna be no war hero

Just get away from the madness I see

June 6, 2006

Hi Michael

I don't think Lennon's choices were mistakes to him tho, it was what

he wanted.

But i do like that you have added a lot more info on your thoughts

here than your previous post.

Tis ok to like anyone for any reason, that's your choice too. We

just don't agree with your statement that he was solely responsible

for ending the Vietnam War. It is simply not true. And that was what

you said and that was what we were all disagreeing with. You said

nothing of his being someone who cared or tried to make a difference.

But now you have and to that I do agree. On what level I am unsure

of tho because I know not enough about it.

Peace

Nikki

, " Michael Benis "

<michaelbenis wrote:

>

> Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes

yourself! :-)

>

> He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to put

down what

> he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make a difference

etc.

>

> I'll admit the " and more " was a bit of wind-up - but he was honest

enough

> about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint, but then

let's leave

> that for the true believers....

>

> Of course he wasn't vegan either....

>

> But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that

>

> _____

>

On

> Behalf Of Peter

> 06 June 2006 19:33

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Hi Michael

>

> But he hardly constituted the whole feminist movement.... and I'd

also

> wonder how anyone who treated women with quite such disregard

could possibly

> be classified as a feminist!!!!

>

> BB

> Peter

June 7, 2006

Yeah, my fav was when he and Yoko spent a week in bed together. That

did so much! LOL

Sorry - I couldn't help it!

Nikki

, " Colin Sky " <colinsky wrote:

>

> john was a great ambassador for peace and a legend. bless his soul.

>

> -

> peter VV

>

> Monday, June 05, 2006 5:55 AM

> Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> I agree with you Jo, He didnt strike me as a particularly pious

individual, in fact George and Paul seemed to do a lot more for

charity than he did. He just seemed a very hedonistic person.

>

> The Valley Vegan..........

>

June 7, 2006

, " Peter " <metalscarab wrote:

>

> Hi Michael

>

> There's a huge difference between making " mistakes " and treating

women like objects to be used as you like (and let's face it, he did a

fair amount of that, playing on his fame to get women into bed, and

showing absolutely no respect to even the women he claimed to love).

I'm not saying that he didn't do some good things, but as someone who

is involved in feminist activism, I find the suggestion that someone

who treats women that way is a feminist to be rather offensive!

>

> BB

> Peter

hi peter,

what women are you talking about?

I am not familiar with these stories, was this pre-beatle breakup..

if so...

welll yes of course, Beatles probably slept with whomever they

wanted. They were the Beatles!

All I know of is the devotion that he showed his wife Yoko, The Album

Double Fanstasy was basically

written to her. and the single, Woman, is about her. How many

husbands do that?

A feminist statement he made to me would be hey look world, you

called this japanese lady a minority,

I call her the woman I chose to marry.

You say blondes are beautiful, I say she is beautiful.

In fact, it is said that one of the reasons of the beatles breakup

was that he wanted to continually involve her in the band. I

personally think YOko is supercool.

I love her artwork and think that she has a beautiful voice. His

album covers were almost always him kissing her.

and if you read them, all of the lyrics, in his later albums are

intensely personal. They bring you in to the intimate

struggles that their mariage faced (or frankly any marriage faces)

especially with the pressures of showbusiness.

He gave up his music carreer to become a father and raise his son

himself. They could be seen walking hand in hand

in central park, him carrying the baby in a sling.

I say he who's marriage is perfect, cast the first stone.

the day that he died, I will remember forever, all the grownups

around me were buzzing " a beatle has died "

a beatle has died. It was horrible, we all cried and in the

streets suddendly everyone started talking to each

other. His death brought everyone closer together in sadness. my

mom brought me over to the police line and we

held candles. It was a day of mourning for all of manhattan.

If you go into central park there is a place called strawberry fields,

near 72nd st. the dakota building where they lived,

strawberry fields was designed by a million dollars that yoko

gave to the park. there is a single word imagine, in a mosaic in

the floor in which people leave flowers.... .

this place brings together all kinds of hippies from all over the

world... I will be there next week.

> -

> Michael Benis

>

> Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM

> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes yourself! :-)

>

> He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to put

down what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make a

difference etc.

>

> I'll admit the " and more " was a bit of wind-up - but he was honest

enough about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint, but

then let's leave that for the true believers....

>

> Of course he wasn't vegan either....

>

> But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that

>

June 7, 2006

hi jo. he was basically a good guy. :-) and a legend because he deserved to be. he was human too.

everybody makes mistakes, often throughout their lives.

but not everybody reaches out to the world with a universal message of peace and hope.

john lennon bravely spoke out against the iraqi war of yesteryear.

he sang to the world "all we are saying... is give peace a chance..."

when he was brilliant he was brilliant. a true world leader... towards a peaceful world.

now there is less hope and no jl.

peace

colin

-

heartwerk

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:59 PM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

It is not unusual to want peace - don't most people - we just don't get the chance to tell the world because we are not famous. On the Yoko point - she must have been right about him needing other women otherwise he would have refused. In interviews with her that I have seen she was very upset by his attitude. Also his first wife was very upset when he left her. I know these happenings are not unusual but because something is a common happening does not make it any better to hurt people. Aren't we on VeganChat against hurting other beings, including people?Jo , "Anouk Sickler" <zurumato wrote:>> , "jo" <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> >> > I think it is all romanticised somewhat. He was a hard character -> and very> > selfish. He left his first wife and son when he became famous, and> claimed> > to love Yoko very much, yet was constantly unfaithful to her - even> in the> > same house within hearing distance.> > > > I am not a fan.> > > > Jo> > > > > hi jo, > > are you sure that he was a hard character?> > I do not get that impression, but I was a little kid> when he was alive.> > Perhaps I am romanticism him. > > I do know that his peace message, the Imagine song lives > within my heart, and that he lives in the heart of many > people, through his inspiration, today. > > I think that one must put into perspective what happened.> > He married his high school sweatheart and then suddendly > came into fame and half of the worlds women wanted > to sleep with him. what would many men do?> > he literally had to choose between,> the beatles career and being a normal husband. > He has expressed regret in some interviews. > > I know that his little boy Julian> was living with him and Yoko on the weekends. > and I get the impression that lots of people were getting> divorces easily back then. > > as far as sleeping with other women..> there is a documentary called Imagine. it is a dvd, which i rented.> > In it he is speaking frankly about his realtionship with yoko. > and in the interview Yoko admits, that she got women for John. > > yes, she actually encouraged him to sleep with other women, > and even got a very good asian friend of hers to sleep with john, (the> asian friend is shown in the video with yoko)> John, says "she thinks I need to sleep with other women and I don't> understand why she wants me to"> > some women that i know in nyc, have open relationships and > get their husbands to sleep with some women or a friend that they choose. > It is not my thing, but for some, Open relationships work.> > It is not very different from the polyamorous people that we know,> Serene, and Peter's friend Alex from Italy. > > I do not judge, and think that perhaps because he was a celebrity> we are looking at him through a microscope lens. > > I am one of those people that think that sex sometimes is just sex,> but if it is with someone you love it is better. > > I do give him credit for marrying an Asian person, when he could > have had all the girls in the world. > > as I understand it, Interracial marriages, were not so accepted > in the 1960's. > > I also give him credit for marrying, the woman> he loved, despite the fact that this was not encouraged by many people. > > To me that love that he felt for her is > apparent in the gallery pictures of nudes that they took > together, the way that they used to walk hand in hand and> in his devotion to the baby he had with her.>

June 7, 2006

He tried.

, " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?

>

> Jo

>

> , " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato@>

> wrote:

> >

> > John Lennon

> > challenged the politics of war..

> > taking on reporters from the New York Times,

> > and old time Republican farts, with head to head

> > confrontations about what we were doing in vietnam.

> >

> > they even took his passport away for his politics. He wasn't afraid

> to

> > stick his head out.

> >

June 7, 2006

hi peter,

yes dylan was in the same league as him.

He did less and less because he quit the public

life to stay home with his son.

that was so cool that he could turn back on fame, to take

care of a baby.

i identify with him and the 1960's in general, because he was

idealistic and so am I.

btw, I also loved George.

i think that people are too uptight in the 2000's

including me.

> Seems to me that he did less and less as he grew to the end of his

time, George seemed to me to do a lot more for charity and fund

raising, but always kept quiet about it ( apart from the Bangeladesh

concert thingy).

> And dont even get started on Yoko!

> Just my opinion, just as you have yours.

>

> The Valley Vegan................

June 7, 2006

hi nikki,

i really couldn't point out anything specific,

but the fact is that he touched many people, all over the

world.

don't know how or why, perhaps it was his

lyrics. Some people even think that he wasn't a

british man, he was a superhuman. (it sounds funny but it

is true.)

nobody's perfect, but currently there is a petition

going around to have an International

Worldwide,

John Lennon Holiday.

I have signed it, and will cry with happiness

when it becomes true.

in case anyone's interested here it is.

http://www.johnlennonday.com/

, " earthstrm " <earthstorm wrote:

>

> Really?! Wow, all of those darn protestors must feel pretty stupid.

>

> Never knew that one man could do so much!

>

> So uh, what more?

>

> Nikki - who should have known better than to come back before it was

> clear

> Sorry guys - go ahead and yell

>

> , " Michael Benis "

> <michaelbenis@> wrote:

> >

> > Yes, and more.

> >

>

June 7, 2006

he wrote / sang that women were the niggers of the world to highlight their unfair status in society...

-

Peter

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 6:33 AM

Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

But he hardly constituted the whole feminist movement.... and I'd also wonder how anyone who treated women with quite such disregard could possibly be classified as a feminist!!!!

BB

Peter

-

Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:21 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

He was part of the feminist movement, and more.

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell06 June 2006 16:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael & everyone

>>Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?

> Yes, and more

So, you wouldn't have said that the feminist movement had anything at all to do with it?????

BB

Peter

June 7, 2006

hi ... please... if u can find a spare daisy... put one down for me...

peace

colin.

-

Anouk Sickler

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:31 PM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

, "Peter" <metalscarab wrote:>> Hi Michael> > There's a huge difference between making "mistakes" and treatingwomen like objects to be used as you like (and let's face it, he did afair amount of that, playing on his fame to get women into bed, andshowing absolutely no respect to even the women he claimed to love).I'm not saying that he didn't do some good things, but as someone whois involved in feminist activism, I find the suggestion that someonewho treats women that way is a feminist to be rather offensive!> > BB> Peterhi peter, what women are you talking about?I am not familiar with these stories, was this pre-beatle breakup..if so... welll yes of course, Beatles probably slept with whomever theywanted. They were the Beatles!All I know of is the devotion that he showed his wife Yoko, The AlbumDouble Fanstasy was basically written to her. and the single, Woman, is about her. How manyhusbands do that?A feminist statement he made to me would be hey look world, youcalled this japanese lady a minority, I call her the woman I chose to marry. You say blondes are beautiful, I say she is beautiful. In fact, it is said that one of the reasons of the beatles breakup was that he wanted to continually involve her in the band. Ipersonally think YOko is supercool. I love her artwork and think that she has a beautiful voice. Hisalbum covers were almost always him kissing her. and if you read them, all of the lyrics, in his later albums areintensely personal. They bring you in to the intimatestruggles that their mariage faced (or frankly any marriage faces) especially with the pressures of showbusiness. He gave up his music carreer to become a father and raise his sonhimself. They could be seen walking hand in handin central park, him carrying the baby in a sling. I say he who's marriage is perfect, cast the first stone. the day that he died, I will remember forever, all the grownupsaround me were buzzing " a beatle has died" a beatle has died. It was horrible, we all cried and in thestreets suddendly everyone started talking to each other. His death brought everyone closer together in sadness. mymom brought me over to the police line and we held candles. It was a day of mourning for all of manhattan. If you go into central park there is a place called strawberry fields,near 72nd st. the dakota building where they lived, strawberry fields was designed by a million dollars that yoko gave to the park. there is a single word imagine, in a mosaic inthe floor in which people leave flowers.... . this place brings together all kinds of hippies from all over theworld... I will be there next week. > - > Michael Benis > > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration> > > > Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes yourself! :-)> > He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to putdown what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make adifference etc.> > I'll admit the "and more" was a bit of wind-up - but he was honestenough about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint, butthen let's leave that for the true believers....> > Of course he wasn't vegan either....> > But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that> >

June 7, 2006

Hey, Nikki. Lighten up! No one person was responsible for ending any war.

Anyway, I think you're confusing me with someone else, maybe Anouk.

Our choices aren't always what we think we want. Often we find out they

weren't, though. Life isn't a straight line. Even gods are reported to have

changed their minds.... And even Marx wrote " man may make history, but he

does not make it as he chooses " (14th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon).

Lennon was in the journey for real and exposed himself warts and all... I

wish that were more common.

He was also very fond of chocolate.....

On

Behalf Of earthstrm

06 June 2006 23:44

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

I don't think Lennon's choices were mistakes to him tho, it was what he

wanted.

But i do like that you have added a lot more info on your thoughts here than

your previous post.

Tis ok to like anyone for any reason, that's your choice too. We just don't

agree with your statement that he was solely responsible for ending the

Vietnam War. It is simply not true. And that was what you said and that was

what we were all disagreeing with. You said nothing of his being someone who

cared or tried to make a difference.

But now you have and to that I do agree. On what level I am unsure of tho

because I know not enough about it.

Peace

Nikki

, " Michael Benis "

<michaelbenis wrote:

>

> Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes

yourself! :-)

>

> He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to put

down what

> he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make a difference

etc.

>

> I'll admit the " and more " was a bit of wind-up - but he was honest

enough

> about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint, but then

let's leave

> that for the true believers....

>

> Of course he wasn't vegan either....

>

> But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that

>

> _____

>

On

> Behalf Of Peter

> 06 June 2006 19:33

>

> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Hi Michael

>

> But he hardly constituted the whole feminist movement.... and I'd

also

> wonder how anyone who treated women with quite such disregard

could possibly

> be classified as a feminist!!!!

>

> BB

> Peter

June 7, 2006

Never heard "Woman is the nigger of the world", then, eh?

He only stopped changing when he died. Well, when the decomposition stopped....

On Behalf Of jo06 June 2006 19:32 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

He must have changed one hell of a lot once he went to America then.

Jo

-

Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:21 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

He was part of the feminist movement, and more.

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell06 June 2006 16:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael & everyone

>>Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?

> Yes, and more

So, you wouldn't have said that the feminist movement had anything at all to do with it?????

BB

Peter

June 7, 2006

Sure he did all that. He was a man and was sexist like all men are. But he wasn't only a man. And he thought twice and more about what he did. Maybe you want to read some of his interviews or even some of his lyrics.

I'm, glad you think you've got a handle on what men should be doing with women. But I have to say I think it pretty offensive you think you can be involved in feminist activism as a man. You're engaged in sorting yourself out and taking at look at how your identity has been influenced by your culture. That's good living in my book. The activism in sexual politics is how we construct our relationships and learn and change. Turn it into something else, especially just preaching and fighting the old patriarchal good and evil let's get offended with righteous indignation and draw up the battle lines way can just make it a badge for identity not necessarily living it. So, in my view, turning it into a battle where you're on the women's side could be and often is one hell of a manipulation. Many feminists have simply written it off as one of the best pick-up lines in the book.

Take that with a pinch of humour, I'm not meaning to be offensive to you, but I'd rather leave that sort of polarised purity stuff in centuries past.

Lennon hit a lot of bum notes in his life, but that also helped him get some of the "right" notes right.

On Behalf Of Peter06 June 2006 23:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

There's a huge difference between making "mistakes" and treating women like objects to be used as you like (and let's face it, he did a fair amount of that, playing on his fame to get women into bed, and showing absolutely no respect to even the women he claimed to love). I'm not saying that he didn't do some good things, but as someone who is involved in feminist activism, I find the suggestion that someone who treats women that way is a feminist to be rather offensive!

BB

Peter

-

Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes yourself! :-)

He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to put down what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make a difference etc.

I'll admit the "and more" was a bit of wind-up - but he was honest enough about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint, but then let's leave that for the true believers....

Of course he wasn't vegan either....

But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that

On Behalf Of Peter06 June 2006 19:33 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

But he hardly constituted the whole feminist movement.... and I'd also wonder how anyone who treated women with quite such disregard could possibly be classified as a feminist!!!!

BB

Peter

-

Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:21 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

He was part of the feminist movement, and more.

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell06 June 2006 16:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael & everyone

>>Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?

> Yes, and more

So, you wouldn't have said that the feminist movement had anything at all to do with it?????

BB

Peter

June 7, 2006

Ah, the absurd!

Sometimes you have to be absurd in a mad world...

On

Behalf Of earthstrm

07 June 2006 00:55

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Yeah, my fav was when he and Yoko spent a week in bed together. That did so

much! LOL

Sorry - I couldn't help it!

Nikki

, " Colin Sky " <colinsky wrote:

>

> john was a great ambassador for peace and a legend. bless his soul.

>

> -

> peter VV

>

> Monday, June 05, 2006 5:55 AM

> Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> I agree with you Jo, He didnt strike me as a particularly pious

individual, in fact George and Paul seemed to do a lot more for charity than

he did. He just seemed a very hedonistic person.

>

> The Valley Vegan..........

>

June 7, 2006

Oh dear. Couldn't everyone have done it together?! You know, a little a bit

of everyone... just like now?

On

Behalf Of earthstrm

06 June 2006 22:29

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Jo

> Don't go away - just don't read the posts you don't like - we

don't want you getting stressed.

Thanks! I thought better of it and came back. I am just going to try

not to reply to the ones I can't be nice in. LOL

> Obviously the protesters made no difference at all, being mere

humans :-)

I was thinking close to the very same thing!

BB

Nikki

> -

> earthstrm

>

> Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:47 PM

> Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

> Really?! Wow, all of those darn protestors must feel pretty

stupid.

>

> Never knew that one man could do so much!

>

> So uh, what more?

>

> Nikki - who should have known better than to come back before it

was

> clear

> Sorry guys - go ahead and yell

>

> , " Michael Benis "

> <michaelbenis@> wrote:

> >

> > Yes, and more.

> >

> On

> > Behalf Of heartwerk

> > 06 June 2006 08:01

> >

> > Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

> >

> > Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?

> >

> > Jo

>

To send an email to -

June 7, 2006

Hi Anouk

I was referring to what Jo was saying in an earlier post about the way he treated Yoko and his first wife...

BB

Peter

On 07/06/06, Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:

, " Peter " <metalscarab wrote:

>> Hi Michael>> There's a huge difference between making " mistakes " and treatingwomen like objects to be used as you like (and let's face it, he did afair amount of that, playing on his fame to get women into bed, and

showing absolutely no respect to even the women he claimed to love).I'm not saying that he didn't do some good things, but as someone whois involved in feminist activism, I find the suggestion that someone

who treats women that way is a feminist to be rather offensive!>> BB> Peterhi peter,what women are you talking about?I am not familiar with these stories, was this pre-beatle breakup..

if so...welll yes of course, Beatles probably slept with whomever theywanted. They were the Beatles!All I know of is the devotion that he showed his wife Yoko, The AlbumDouble Fanstasy was basically

written to her. and the single, Woman, is about her. How manyhusbands do that?A feminist statement he made to me would be hey look world, youcalled this japanese lady a minority,I call her the woman I chose to marry.

You say blondes are beautiful, I say she is beautiful.In fact, it is said that one of the reasons of the beatles breakupwas that he wanted to continually involve her in the band. Ipersonally think YOko is supercool.

I love her artwork and think that she has a beautiful voice. Hisalbum covers were almost always him kissing her.and if you read them, all of the lyrics, in his later albums areintensely personal. They bring you in to the intimate

struggles that their mariage faced (or frankly any marriage faces)especially with the pressures of showbusiness.He gave up his music carreer to become a father and raise his sonhimself. They could be seen walking hand in hand

in central park, him carrying the baby in a sling.I say he who's marriage is perfect, cast the first stone.the day that he died, I will remember forever, all the grownupsaround me were buzzing " a beatle has died "

a beatle has died. It was horrible, we all cried and in thestreets suddendly everyone started talking to eachother. His death brought everyone closer together in sadness. mymom brought me over to the police line and we

held candles. It was a day of mourning for all of manhattan.If you go into central park there is a place called strawberry fields,near 72nd st. the dakota building where they lived,strawberry fields was designed by a million dollars that yoko

gave to the park. there is a single word imagine, in a mosaic inthe floor in which people leave flowers.... .this place brings together all kinds of hippies from all over theworld... I will be there next week.

> -> Michael Benis> > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>>>> Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes yourself! :-)>> He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to putdown what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make a

difference etc.>> I'll admit the " and more " was a bit of wind-up - but he was honestenough about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint, butthen let's leave that for the true believers....

>> Of course he wasn't vegan either....>> But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that>>

June 7, 2006

Hi Michael

>Sure he did all that. He was a man and was sexist like all men are.

Ummm - 'scuse me but that's obsolute tosh, and really rather offensive.

>I'm, glad you think you've got a handle on what men should be doing with women. But I have

> to say I think it pretty offensive you think you can be involved in feminist activism as a man.

Then you really need to do some reading on what feminism is about - it's not about a " battle " between men and women, but about breaking down barriers which seperate men and women.

>Turn it into something else, especially just preaching and fighting the old patriarchal good and

> evil let's get offended with righteous indignation and draw up the battle lines way can just

> make it a badge for identity not necessarily living it. So, in my view, turning it into a battle

> where you're on the women's side could be and often is one hell of a manipulation. Many

> feminists have simply written it off as one of the best pick-up lines in the book.

>Take that with a pinch of humour, I'm not meaning to be offensive to you, but I'd rather leave

> that sort of polarised purity stuff in centuries past.

Yep, I see that you still have a very 1970s view of radical feminism... you really need to catch up with the feminist movement by some 3 decades before commenting on it....

BB

Peter

June 7, 2006

Well, that's obviously got your goat, which wasn't my intention. But if you like anger and indignation, you stick with it! Does it not occur that you are being both aggressive and offensive yourself in typical patriarchal fashion?

Men are sexist, I'm afraid. It's in the genes. The perspective we build on that and what else we are is another matter.

I shan't interpret your own reading or your age or judge it as you have seen fit to do with mine.

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell07 June 2006 12:54 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

>Sure he did all that. He was a man and was sexist like all men are.

Ummm - 'scuse me but that's obsolute tosh, and really rather offensive.

>I'm, glad you think you've got a handle on what men should be doing with women. But I have

> to say I think it pretty offensive you think you can be involved in feminist activism as a man.

Then you really need to do some reading on what feminism is about - it's not about a "battle" between men and women, but about breaking down barriers which seperate men and women.

>Turn it into something else, especially just preaching and fighting the old patriarchal good and

> evil let's get offended with righteous indignation and draw up the battle lines way can just

> make it a badge for identity not necessarily living it. So, in my view, turning it into a battle

> where you're on the women's side could be and often is one hell of a manipulation. Many

> feminists have simply written it off as one of the best pick-up lines in the book.

>Take that with a pinch of humour, I'm not meaning to be offensive to you, but I'd rather leave

> that sort of polarised purity stuff in centuries past.

Yep, I see that you still have a very 1970s view of radical feminism... you really need to catch up with the feminist movement by some 3 decades before commenting on it....

BB

Peter

June 7, 2006

Hi Michael

I am light and I wasn't being mean either. So no need for me to

lighten up, I was being complimentary when I said I was glad that

you posted more. Your earlier one line statements left us nothing to

go on and I like that you are sharing more info with us.

Someone, I think Jo, asked if Lennon was responsible for ending the

war and you replied " Yes and more " . That was what I was commenting

on. Anouk always give us a lot of info so I that know it wasn't

Anouk.

Nikki

, " Michael Benis "

<michaelbenis wrote:

>

> Hey, Nikki. Lighten up! No one person was responsible for ending

any war.

>

> Anyway, I think you're confusing me with someone else, maybe Anouk.

>

> Our choices aren't always what we think we want. Often we find out

they

> weren't, though. Life isn't a straight line. Even gods are

reported to have

> changed their minds.... And even Marx wrote " man may make history,

but he

> does not make it as he chooses " (14th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon).

>

> Lennon was in the journey for real and exposed himself warts and

all... I

> wish that were more common.

>

> He was also very fond of chocolate.....

>

June 7, 2006

Hi Michael~

Wow, I am going to try to be as " light " as possible here because I

do not think you mean this to come across as it did.

> Sure he did all that. He was a man and was sexist like all men

are. But he

> wasn't only a man.

I take offense to this because it is now true and I am not even

male! That is quite a bigoted and sexist remark! Not all men are

sexist, but you have proved that you are with this statement.

>But I have to say I think it pretty offensive you think you can be

> involved in feminist activism as a man.

Then you should be greatly offended, because Peter is far from

sexist.

Perhaps Americanist.

(just kidding Peter)

>So, in my view, turning it into a battle where you're on the

> women's side could be and often is one hell of a manipulation. Many

> feminists have simply written it off as one of the best pick-up

lines in the

> book.

Quite true in some instances, but does this mean that all men are

this way? Tis not fair really to judge everyone because of their

gender.

And by you saying this, that too can be quite a pick-up line don't

you think?

> Take that with a pinch of humour, I'm not meaning to be offensive

to you,

> but I'd rather leave that sort of polarised purity stuff in

centuries past.

Same for me, I am only explaining my point of view and as a friend

of Peter's letting you know that you do have him pegged wrong.

> Lennon hit a lot of bum notes in his life, but that also helped

him get some

> of the " right " notes right.

Great statement! And i think this goes for a lot of humans.

Nikki

, " Michael Benis "

<michaelbenis wrote:

>

> Sure he did all that. He was a man and was sexist like all men

are. But he

> wasn't only a man. And he thought twice and more about what he

did. Maybe

> you want to read some of his interviews or even some of his lyrics.

>

> I'm, glad you think you've got a handle on what men should be

doing with

> women. But I have to say I think it pretty offensive you think you

can be

> involved in feminist activism as a man. You're engaged in sorting

yourself

> out and taking at look at how your identity has been influenced by

your

> culture. That's good living in my book. The activism in sexual

politics is

> how we construct our relationships and learn and change. Turn it

into

> something else, especially just preaching and fighting the old

patriarchal

> good and evil let's get offended with righteous indignation and

draw up the

> battle lines way can just make it a badge for identity not

necessarily

> living it. So, in my view, turning it into a battle where you're

on the

> women's side could be and often is one hell of a manipulation. Many

> feminists have simply written it off as one of the best pick-up

lines in the

> book.

>

> Take that with a pinch of humour, I'm not meaning to be offensive

to you,

> but I'd rather leave that sort of polarised purity stuff in

centuries past.

>

> Lennon hit a lot of bum notes in his life, but that also helped

him get some

> of the " right " notes right.

>

> _____

>

June 7, 2006

Hi Michael

No offense, but it is hard to misinterpret point blank statements

such as yours. And there is no reason to attack Peter in this

manner. If you do not feel that way, then explain yourself. Because

looking at your statements, this is the way that it is coming across.

As for it being in the genes, I have never heard of this. But if it

is true I would love to read more about it. Please do send us some

information on where you have found this to be true. Perhaps we can

all learn from it.

Nikki

, " Michael Benis "

<michaelbenis wrote:

>

> Well, that's obviously got your goat, which wasn't my intention.

But if you

> like anger and indignation, you stick with it! Does it not occur

that you

> are being both aggressive and offensive yourself in typical

patriarchal

> fashion?

>

> Men are sexist, I'm afraid. It's in the genes. The perspective we

build on

> that and what else we are is another matter.

>

> I shan't interpret your own reading or your age or judge it as you

have seen

> fit to do with mine.

>

> _____

>

June 7, 2006

Well you're right about the first part, but the answer lies in the " wasn't

only a man " which goes for all men.

In fact having written that I was wondering whether someone was going to

jump on the phrase and accuse me of saying Lennon was superman, or a

visiting deity or something.

In saying all men are sexist I mean there are aspects to being a man that

are inevitably sexist - your gender influences your response to gender aside

from the whole society/ideology shebang. But that doesn't mean that there

aren't other parts/ways of being a man that put this in a different

perspective etc.

What I was really saying to Peter as he came in crusading against JL as a

male feminist knight in shining armour was: you may want to think twice

about chucking stones and pointing fingers.

That's aside from getting his facts right.

In fact the whole message came over as clichéd polemic and an ad for his own

righteous feminism.

As for the " you have proved " ... I'm afraid I think that's far too

simplistic. As is the idea that you suddenly stop being sexist because you

say you're a feminist. Sexual politics and the politics of identity is a

long haul life change, not a revelation on the road to Damascus, but many

over the course of many years, some of which we don't even notice at them

time. That's certainly how it's been for me. I certainly wanted to believe I

was already as pure as the driven snow when I first started thinking and

talking about this stuff years ago, but then found I had a lot more to learn

about myself - and I sure as hell don't think I've got " there " yet.

A guy can tell you he's as feminist as you like and that's certainly a great

ambition if it isn't an advert. The reality is we're all mixed and in some

ways that's good. The potential is more than we can imagine.

Sure, I'm a man and I'm saying all men are sexist, but I'm also saying all

men are other things and can be yet others more - including more self-aware

and less sexist.

A little honesty doesn't do any harm. Lennon described himself as a

feminist, but didn't say he got it right all the time, by a long chalk...

Hope that makes more sense.

On

Behalf Of earthstrm

07 June 2006 13:56

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael~

Wow, I am going to try to be as " light " as possible here because I do not

think you mean this to come across as it did.

> Sure he did all that. He was a man and was sexist like all men

are. But he

> wasn't only a man.

I take offense to this because it is now true and I am not even

male! That is quite a bigoted and sexist remark! Not all men are

sexist, but you have proved that you are with this statement.

>But I have to say I think it pretty offensive you think you can be

> involved in feminist activism as a man.

Then you should be greatly offended, because Peter is far from

sexist.

Perhaps Americanist.

(just kidding Peter)

>So, in my view, turning it into a battle where you're on the

> women's side could be and often is one hell of a manipulation. Many

> feminists have simply written it off as one of the best pick-up

lines in the

> book.

Quite true in some instances, but does this mean that all men are

this way? Tis not fair really to judge everyone because of their

gender.

And by you saying this, that too can be quite a pick-up line don't

you think?

> Take that with a pinch of humour, I'm not meaning to be offensive

to you,

> but I'd rather leave that sort of polarised purity stuff in

centuries past.

Same for me, I am only explaining my point of view and as a friend

of Peter's letting you know that you do have him pegged wrong.

> Lennon hit a lot of bum notes in his life, but that also helped

him get some

> of the " right " notes right.

Great statement! And i think this goes for a lot of humans.

Nikki

, " Michael Benis "

<michaelbenis wrote:

>

> Sure he did all that. He was a man and was sexist like all men

are. But he

> wasn't only a man. And he thought twice and more about what he

did. Maybe

> you want to read some of his interviews or even some of his lyrics.

>

> I'm, glad you think you've got a handle on what men should be

doing with

> women. But I have to say I think it pretty offensive you think you

can be

> involved in feminist activism as a man. You're engaged in sorting

yourself

> out and taking at look at how your identity has been influenced by

your

> culture. That's good living in my book. The activism in sexual

politics is

> how we construct our relationships and learn and change. Turn it

into

> something else, especially just preaching and fighting the old

patriarchal

> good and evil let's get offended with righteous indignation and

draw up the

> battle lines way can just make it a badge for identity not

necessarily

> living it. So, in my view, turning it into a battle where you're

on the

> women's side could be and often is one hell of a manipulation. Many

> feminists have simply written it off as one of the best pick-up

lines in the

> book.

>

> Take that with a pinch of humour, I'm not meaning to be offensive

to you,

> but I'd rather leave that sort of polarised purity stuff in

centuries past.

>

> Lennon hit a lot of bum notes in his life, but that also helped

him get some

> of the " right " notes right.

>

> _____

>

To send an email to -

June 7, 2006

Calling it a movement is anachronistic.

I wasn't calling you sexist, though I think you were playing knight in shining armour - why just stick labels on Lennon and bang on about your activism otherwise?

And saying "it's in the genes" is to say you can't just put on a whiter-than-white shirt because you want one. It makes it more difficult, not easier, providing you don't use it as an excuse just top treat people badly. Saying it's not in the genes at all, however, that certainly makes things easier....

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell07 June 2006 13:47 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

I think when people call me sexist, I have every right to indignation, and it's a load of codswallop that this is a "patriachal" attitude. Although, I guess "it's in my genes" is a good excuse to not have to think about the way you treat other people.

And I didn't make any interpretation of your age, merely that your perception is some three decades out of date, and that perhaps you should get up to date with what a movement is before ascribing anachronistic attitudes to it.

BB

Peter

On 07/06/06, Michael Benis <michaelbenis wrote:

Well, that's obviously got your goat, which wasn't my intention. But if you like anger and indignation, you stick with it! Does it not occur that you are being both aggressive and offensive yourself in typical patriarchal fashion?

Men are sexist, I'm afraid. It's in the genes. The perspective we build on that and what else we are is another matter.

I shan't interpret your own reading or your age or judge it as you have seen fit to do with mine.

[ ] On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell07 June 2006 12:54