John Lennon, my Inspiration

June 7, 2006

Hi Peter,

Answering your points in order:

You completely misunderstand me. I was not talking about "modern feminism" either below or when I wrote about "battles", but about your comments on Lennon.

Yes, I would have answered differently had you been a woman. You would have commented differently about Lennon had he been a woman.

About the "all men are sexist" thing, it appears you read my post too quickly. The excuse is to claim that you are completely uninfluenced by your sexual feelings and that transforming current "gender issues" is a linear matter of going beyond labelling into some transcendent but immediately accessible realm that is non-physical and non-historical, believing that the very identity that mediates our experience can somehow see beyond itself and all at once.

What I am saying, conversely, (still about "all men are sexist") is that there are certain elements of my self or my re-sponse that I choose to mediate (which isn't to say there isn't also an awful lot that is determined by society/ideology etc.). I stressed it was not a matter of blame or not taking responsibility.

At the same time, I didn't talk about struggle with nature, which is not the way I see it. For me, it's more a matter of insight. The same goes for jealousy or anger, for example. Struggling with these doesn't change your relationship with them, insight does.

We have a different approach. You believe in a Hegelian dialectic (you get to to the perfect truth) I find a Adorno's negative dialectic fits more with my experience (you continually get more understanding, but also keep making mistakes and then learning from them - which doesn't mean you don't keep trying).

Paralleling this: Butler mounts a classic structuralist retake on gender and is therefore very much a product of seventies/eighties thinking, whereas the current (post-structuralist) trend is towards overdetermined models. I see this contrast as the same as my comment about dialectics. But thank you for the recommendation anyway.

Our values are probably much closer than this exchange acknowledges, but our vision of how to achieve change and indeed talk about it is very different. At least we're both doing something, though.

Getting back to Lennon - he had a very zig-zag path in terms of being purer than the driven snow, but he was honest about his failings as well as his hopes. Your depiction and judgement of him were, I'm afraid, just a bit too Old Testament for me. Can you not admire people who are idealists and struggle but make mistakes - and learn from them?

Michael

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell07 June 2006 15:00 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

>Calling it a movement is anachronistic.

Maybe so - perhaps we should call it several movements.

>I wasn't calling you sexist, though I think you were playing knight in shining armour - why just

> stick labels on Lennon and bang on about your activism otherwise?

Geez - you do have a warped view of modern feminism. It has nothing at all to do with being a "knight in shining armour" - you have no idea just how many things are wrong with that statement. Modern feminism is about going beyond labelling people based on their genitalia, which is exactly what you have just done to me. If I'd had different genitalia, you would never have made such a comment. Instead, you'd have accepted me for who I am without making sexist assumptions about my motives... which says a lot more about you than it does about me!!

>And saying "it's in the genes" is to say you can't just put on a whiter-than-white shirt because

> you want one. It makes it more difficult, not easier, providing you don't use it as an excuse

> just top treat people badly. Saying it's not in the genes at all, however, that certainly makes

> things easier....

Saying that "all men are sexist" is basically the same as saying "I'm a man, therefore I can't help but be sexist, so why bother to be different". It's basically blaming your faults on your gender rather than taking personal responsibility for your actions.

And as to the "knight in shining armour"... just how would you classify someone who says that they have to struggle against nature to treat people with respect (which is basically what you've just said about yourself)?

I would really recommend that you read some Judith Butler - you might learn quite a lot!

BB

Peter

June 7, 2006

Hi Michael

>Yes, I would have answered differently had you been a woman. You would have commented

> differently about Lennon had he been a woman.

No I wouldn't!

>About the " all men are sexist " thing, it appears you read my post too quickly. The excuse is

> to claim that you are completely uninfluenced by your sexual feelings and that transforming

> current " gender issues " is a linear matter of going beyond labelling into some transcendent

>but immediately accessible realm that is non-physical and non-historical, believing that the

>very identity that mediates our experience can somehow see beyond itself and all at once.

Well, firstly, there is a fundamental misapprehension that sexual feelings are related to gender.

And I do believe that the best way to tackle the issues of sexism is precisely to go beyond labelling - to challenge the heteronormative stereotype labels applied by society.

>At the same time, I didn't talk about struggle with nature, which is not the way I see it. For

> me, it's more a matter of insight. The same goes for jealousy or anger, for example.

> Struggling with these doesn't change your relationship with them, insight does.

This still seems to fall into the trap of heteronormative stereotyping. You can only have a relationship with something which you perceive to be significant. If gender ceases to be significant, how could you possibly have a relationship with it? I also find it interesting that you compare gender (a physical attribute) with jealousy and anger (emotional attributes), when they have absolutely nothing in common - it appears to suggest that emotions are related to gender, which is one of the major problems with gender stereotyping.

>We have a different approach. You believe in a Hegelian dialectic (you get to to the perfect

> truth) I find a Adorno's negative dialectic fits more with my experience (you continually get

> more understanding, but also keep making mistakes and then learning from them - which

> doesn't mean you don't keep trying).

I believe in talking in straight-forward language, rather than using language which is designed to be used among an intellectual elite - I find it more helpful to get people to think about what you're saying if you talk on a level they are familiar with. If the only people who are ever influenced by our words are an intellectual elite, then we won't change a great deal!

But in answer to your comment above, I believe the way to change things for the better is to actually challenge the current status quo - not just on a personal level, but in the world in general. While this is, of course, informed by my experiences, it has little to do with finding perfect truths, but rather to do with a much more practical issue of finding solutions to problems. Perhaps if no-one has looked at it like that before, we could call it the Petrovian positivistic dialectic :-)

>Paralleling this: Butler mounts a classic structuralist retake on gender and is therefore very

> much a product of seventies/eighties thinking, whereas the current (post-structuralist) trend

> is towards overdetermined models. I see this contrast as the same as my comment about

> dialectics. But thank you for the recommendation anyway.

While what you say on Butler is true, her work widened the thinking of " feminist politics " quite dramatically, and was really the starting point which has ultimately led to the very recent trend (probably no more than the past 2 years) of absolutely no models whatsoever - of challenging the most basic stereotyping of gender and sexuality, and attempting to break out of the heteronormative models.

>Our values are probably much closer than this exchange acknowledges, but our vision of how

> to achieve change and indeed talk about it is very different. At least we're both doing

> something, though.

This does seem to be the case.

>Getting back to Lennon - he had a very zig-zag path in terms of being purer than the driven

> snow, but he was honest about his failings as well as his hopes. Your depiction and

>judgement of him were, I'm afraid, just a bit too Old Testament for me. Can you not admire

> people who are idealists and struggle but make mistakes - and learn from them?I find the term " Old Testament " to be rather amusing. My judgement of John Lennon's " personal politics " is the fact that he showed little regard for the feelings even of those people he claimed to love the most. That really isn't a matter of making mistakes, but is a matter of utter selfishness. In the context of John Lennon's treatment of those he loved, I really don't think that having sex with people within ear-shot of your parter, in the full knowledge that she objects to it, is not a " mistake " - and doing it repeatedly does not suggest that he learnt from it, either. I do think Lennon had some nice political ideas, but that doesn't necessarily make him a nice person!

BB

Peter

June 7, 2006

You assume that everybody is going to make mistakes - why is that?

Jo

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Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes yourself! :-)

He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to put down what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make a difference etc.

I'll admit the "and more" was a bit of wind-up - but he was honest enough about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint, but then let's leave that for the true believers....

Of course he wasn't vegan either....

But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that

On Behalf Of Peter06 June 2006 19:33 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

But he hardly constituted the whole feminist movement.... and I'd also wonder how anyone who treated women with quite such disregard could possibly be classified as a feminist!!!!

BB

Peter

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Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:21 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

He was part of the feminist movement, and more.

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell06 June 2006 16:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael & everyone

>>Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?

> Yes, and more

So, you wouldn't have said that the feminist movement had anything at all to do with it?????

BB

Peter

June 7, 2006

He wasn't a legend - he was a person with a lot of faults, quite selfish, and a few good points.

Jo

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Colin Sky

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 1:24 AM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

john was a great ambassador for peace and a legend. bless his soul.

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peter VV

Monday, June 05, 2006 5:55 AM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

I agree with you Jo, He didnt strike me as a particularly pious individual, in fact George and Paul seemed to do a lot more for charity than he did. He just seemed a very hedonistic person.

The Valley Vegan..........jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

I think it is all romanticised somewhat. He was a hard character - and veryselfish. He left his first wife and son when he became famous, and claimedto love Yoko very much, yet was constantly unfaithful to her - even in thesame house within hearing distance.I am not a fan.Jo-"Anouk Sickler" Friday, June 02, 2006 4:10 PM John Lennon, my Inspirationwell I don't know waht a Prat isbut I LOVE John Lennon!!!!!as far as ego goes, there are many many stories of fanscamping outside his house and he would tell them to comein and have breakfast with him.he was accesable, and made sure to tell people that he wasjust a regular guy, he has said this in interviews many times.he came from a broken home, this made him side with the underdog.and you know what, sometimes confidence can be mistaken for a bigego.you have to have confidence if you think that you are going to makea change in this world.at least he tried, what are you and I doing?sitting on our asses watching reruns of dr. who and buffy the vampire!He thought that he could make a difference and he tried,many celebrieties use their fame status as a way toreach many people, Joaquin Phoenix is an exampple of this,most celebrities are just selfish.I did attend the candlelight anniversary of his death in centralpark in NYc this past december.it was beautiful and peaceful, people were singing, playing guitar,and drinking tea in the freezing cold, still talking about PEACE!if he could have this effect on people 26 years after his death,then he is highly respected by me.he could have chosen instead to hob nob with hollywood, he is stilltelling us to WAKE UP from our little lives.He was one of the greatest persons to ever live!!!-anouk , peter VV wrote:>> Well it did sound like a hippy place? ( yeah I know he was a bit ofa prat with an ego the size of a planet, but he did have some talent?)>> The Valley Vegan.............>>To send an email to -

June 7, 2006

Well it got him publicity - but what for?

Jo

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earthstrm

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:54 AM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Yeah, my fav was when he and Yoko spent a week in bed together. That did so much! LOLSorry - I couldn't help it! :)Nikki , "Colin Sky" <colinsky wrote:>> john was a great ambassador for peace and a legend. bless his soul.> > > > > - > peter VV > > Monday, June 05, 2006 5:55 AM> Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration> > > I agree with you Jo, He didnt strike me as a particularly pious individual, in fact George and Paul seemed to do a lot more for charity than he did. He just seemed a very hedonistic person.> > > The Valley Vegan..........>

June 7, 2006

Hi Anouk

What is the point of writing songs for your wife when you are sleeping with lots of other women - I can do without that sort of 'love'. I don't know what other countries have heard about John Lennon but it seems to me like a bit of hero worship for absolutely no reason. If you like the guy that's fine - but to tell the rest of us he was some sort of saint etc. is not quite right.

Jo

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Anouk Sickler

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:31 AM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

, "Peter" <metalscarab wrote:>> Hi Michael> > There's a huge difference between making "mistakes" and treatingwomen like objects to be used as you like (and let's face it, he did afair amount of that, playing on his fame to get women into bed, andshowing absolutely no respect to even the women he claimed to love).I'm not saying that he didn't do some good things, but as someone whois involved in feminist activism, I find the suggestion that someonewho treats women that way is a feminist to be rather offensive!> > BB> Peterhi peter, what women are you talking about?I am not familiar with these stories, was this pre-beatle breakup..if so... welll yes of course, Beatles probably slept with whomever theywanted. They were the Beatles!All I know of is the devotion that he showed his wife Yoko, The AlbumDouble Fanstasy was basically written to her. and the single, Woman, is about her. How manyhusbands do that?A feminist statement he made to me would be hey look world, youcalled this japanese lady a minority, I call her the woman I chose to marry. You say blondes are beautiful, I say she is beautiful. In fact, it is said that one of the reasons of the beatles breakup was that he wanted to continually involve her in the band. Ipersonally think YOko is supercool. I love her artwork and think that she has a beautiful voice. Hisalbum covers were almost always him kissing her. and if you read them, all of the lyrics, in his later albums areintensely personal. They bring you in to the intimatestruggles that their mariage faced (or frankly any marriage faces) especially with the pressures of showbusiness. He gave up his music carreer to become a father and raise his sonhimself. They could be seen walking hand in handin central park, him carrying the baby in a sling. I say he who's marriage is perfect, cast the first stone. the day that he died, I will remember forever, all the grownupsaround me were buzzing " a beatle has died" a beatle has died. It was horrible, we all cried and in thestreets suddendly everyone started talking to each other. His death brought everyone closer together in sadness. mymom brought me over to the police line and we held candles. It was a day of mourning for all of manhattan. If you go into central park there is a place called strawberry fields,near 72nd st. the dakota building where they lived, strawberry fields was designed by a million dollars that yoko gave to the park. there is a single word imagine, in a mosaic inthe floor in which people leave flowers.... . this place brings together all kinds of hippies from all over theworld... I will be there next week. > - > Michael Benis > > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM> RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration> > > > Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes yourself! :-)> > He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to putdown what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make adifference etc.> > I'll admit the "and more" was a bit of wind-up - but he was honestenough about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint, butthen let's leave that for the true believers....> > Of course he wasn't vegan either....> > But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that> >

June 7, 2006

Answers interspersed as your own:

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell07 June 2006 16:48 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

>Yes, I would have answered differently had you been a woman. You would have commented

> differently about Lennon had he been a woman.

No I wouldn't!

I beg to differ. You wouldn't have had access to the same cliched stories of what he did to build your judgement on.

>About the "all men are sexist" thing, it appears you read my post too quickly. The excuse is

> to claim that you are completely uninfluenced by your sexual feelings and that transforming

> current "gender issues" is a linear matter of going beyond labelling into some transcendent

>but immediately accessible realm that is non-physical and non-historical, believing that the

>very identity that mediates our experience can somehow see beyond itself and all at once.

Well, firstly, there is a fundamental misapprehension that sexual feelings are related to gender.

Maybe, but that's not what I was saying. There are components of sexuality with respect to objectification that are very inconvenient for gender neutrality. Just as there are assumptions about identity as object that have blocked any radical politics of identity and sexuality.

And I do believe that the best way to tackle the issues of sexism is precisely to go beyond labelling - to challenge the heteronormative stereotype labels applied by society.

I don't disagree with that, but I think we also have to do more than that. I don't think "labelling" is a useful term either. It makes it all sound easy.

>At the same time, I didn't talk about struggle with nature, which is not the way I see it. For

> me, it's more a matter of insight. The same goes for jealousy or anger, for example.

> Struggling with these doesn't change your relationship with them, insight does.

This still seems to fall into the trap of heteronormative stereotyping. You can only have a relationship with something which you perceive to be significant. If gender ceases to be significant, how could you possibly have a relationship with it? I also find it interesting that you compare gender (a physical attribute) with jealousy and anger (emotional attributes), when they have absolutely nothing in common - it appears to suggest that emotions are related to gender, which is one of the major problems with gender stereotyping.

I was thinking not of gender, but of sexual attraction/desire - which I acknowledge is a mixture of all sorts of things, but can and often does have an "impersonal" side to it that means it can often only be described as "sexist" or "objectifying". This does not have to be a simple het male/female thing either.

>We have a different approach. You believe in a Hegelian dialectic (you get to to the perfect

> truth) I find a Adorno's negative dialectic fits more with my experience (you continually get

> more understanding, but also keep making mistakes and then learning from them - which

> doesn't mean you don't keep trying).

I believe in talking in straight-forward language, rather than using language which is designed to be used among an intellectual elite - I find it more helpful to get people to think about what you're saying if you talk on a level they are familiar with. If the only people who are ever influenced by our words are an intellectual elite, then we won't change a great deal!

Then let's leave the books out of it and call a spade a spade.

But in answer to your comment above, I believe the way to change things for the better is to actually challenge the current status quo - not just on a personal level, but in the world in general. While this is, of course, informed by my experiences, it has little to do with finding perfect truths, but rather to do with a much more practical issue of finding solutions to problems. Perhaps if no-one has looked at it like that before, we could call it the Petrovian positivistic dialectic :-)

Couldn't agree more! There! That was nice wasn't it? But there's no point pretending all the change is out there and with the status quo. We need to do quite a bit inside ourselves, too, don't we? Or am the only one who finds that I'm not always living/being as I'd like?

>Paralleling this: Butler mounts a classic structuralist retake on gender and is therefore very

> much a product of seventies/eighties thinking, whereas the current (post-structuralist) trend

> is towards overdetermined models. I see this contrast as the same as my comment about

> dialectics. But thank you for the recommendation anyway.

While what you say on Butler is true, her work widened the thinking of "feminist politics" quite dramatically, and was really the starting point which has ultimately led to the very recent trend (probably no more than the past 2 years) of absolutely no models whatsoever - of challenging the most basic stereotyping of gender and sexuality, and attempting to break out of the heteronormative models.

Well, I certainly wouldn't say she's had no influence, but I think that's one hell of claim you're making for her there, and which certainly loses sight of much of what has been going on in Western artistic circles since the half century or so before the French Revolution.

>Our values are probably much closer than this exchange acknowledges, but our vision of how

> to achieve change and indeed talk about it is very different. At least we're both doing

> something, though.

This does seem to be the case.

>Getting back to Lennon - he had a very zig-zag path in terms of being purer than the driven

> snow, but he was honest about his failings as well as his hopes. Your depiction and

>judgement of him were, I'm afraid, just a bit too Old Testament for me. Can you not admire

> people who are idealists and struggle but make mistakes - and learn from them?I find the term "Old Testament" to be rather amusing. My judgement of John Lennon's "personal politics" is the fact that he showed little regard for the feelings even of those people he claimed to love the most. That really isn't a matter of making mistakes, but is a matter of utter selfishness. In the context of John Lennon's treatment of those he loved, I really don't think that having sex with people within ear-shot of your parter, in the full knowledge that she objects to it, is not a "mistake" - and doing it repeatedly does not suggest that he learnt from it, either. I do think Lennon had some nice political ideas, but that doesn't necessarily make him a nice person!

Your's is a selective version (did you read some of the info Anouk posted on this?) and a black and white judgement of it. He fucked up big time in some of his crises. So have I. Most of us do.

Mike

BB

Peter

June 7, 2006

Along with millions of others!

Jo

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Anouk Sickler

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:45 AM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

He tried. , "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork wrote:>> Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?> > Jo> > , "Anouk Sickler" <zurumato@> > wrote:> >> > John Lennon> > challenged the politics of war.. > > taking on reporters from the New York Times,> > and old time Republican farts, with head to head> > confrontations about what we were doing in vietnam.> > > > they even took his passport away for his politics. He wasn't afraid > to > > stick his head out. > >

June 7, 2006

LOL

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Anouk Sickler

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:46 AM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

nobody's perfect, but currently there is a petition going around to have an InternationalWorldwide,John Lennon Holiday.

..

June 7, 2006

Can I ask how old you are Anouk and how old you were in the 60s.

Jo

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Anouk Sickler

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:32 AM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

hi peter, yes dylan was in the same league as him. He did less and less because he quit the publiclife to stay home with his son. that was so cool that he could turn back on fame, to take care of a baby. i identify with him and the 1960's in general, because he was idealistic and so am I. btw, I also loved George. i think that people are too uptight in the 2000's including me.> Seems to me that he did less and less as he grew to the end of histime, George seemed to me to do a lot more for charity and fundraising, but always kept quiet about it ( apart from the Bangeladeshconcert thingy).> And dont even get started on Yoko!> Just my opinion, just as you have yours.> > > The Valley Vegan................

June 7, 2006

I am totally surprised and confounded by the adoration given to him - it doesn't seem to be the same in the UK. Sure there are lots of people who liked him and his music, but this idolisation seems a little strange.

Jo

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Colin Sky

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:26 AM

Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

hi jo. he was basically a good guy. :-) and a legend because he deserved to be. he was human too.

everybody makes mistakes, often throughout their lives.

but not everybody reaches out to the world with a universal message of peace and hope.

john lennon bravely spoke out against the iraqi war of yesteryear.

he sang to the world "all we are saying... is give peace a chance..."

when he was brilliant he was brilliant. a true world leader... towards a peaceful world.

now there is less hope and no jl.

peace

colin

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heartwerk

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:59 PM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

It is not unusual to want peace - don't most people - we just don't get the chance to tell the world because we are not famous. On the Yoko point - she must have been right about him needing other women otherwise he would have refused. In interviews with her that I have seen she was very upset by his attitude. Also his first wife was very upset when he left her. I know these happenings are not unusual but because something is a common happening does not make it any better to hurt people. Aren't we on VeganChat against hurting other beings, including people?Jo , "Anouk Sickler" <zurumato wrote:>> , "jo" <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> >> > I think it is all romanticised somewhat. He was a hard character -> and very> > selfish. He left his first wife and son when he became famous, and> claimed> > to love Yoko very much, yet was constantly unfaithful to her - even> in the> > same house within hearing distance.> > > > I am not a fan.> > > > Jo> > > > > hi jo, > > are you sure that he was a hard character?> > I do not get that impression, but I was a little kid> when he was alive.> > Perhaps I am romanticism him. > > I do know that his peace message, the Imagine song lives > within my heart, and that he lives in the heart of many > people, through his inspiration, today. > > I think that one must put into perspective what happened.> > He married his high school sweatheart and then suddendly > came into fame and half of the worlds women wanted > to sleep with him. what would many men do?> > he literally had to choose between,> the beatles career and being a normal husband. > He has expressed regret in some interviews. > > I know that his little boy Julian> was living with him and Yoko on the weekends. > and I get the impression that lots of people were getting> divorces easily back then. > > as far as sleeping with other women..> there is a documentary called Imagine. it is a dvd, which i rented.> > In it he is speaking frankly about his realtionship with yoko. > and in the interview Yoko admits, that she got women for John. > > yes, she actually encouraged him to sleep with other women, > and even got a very good asian friend of hers to sleep with john, (the> asian friend is shown in the video with yoko)> John, says "she thinks I need to sleep with other women and I don't> understand why she wants me to"> > some women that i know in nyc, have open relationships and > get their husbands to sleep with some women or a friend that they choose. > It is not my thing, but for some, Open relationships work.> > It is not very different from the polyamorous people that we know,> Serene, and Peter's friend Alex from Italy. > > I do not judge, and think that perhaps because he was a celebrity> we are looking at him through a microscope lens. > > I am one of those people that think that sex sometimes is just sex,> but if it is with someone you love it is better. > > I do give him credit for marrying an Asian person, when he could > have had all the girls in the world. > > as I understand it, Interracial marriages, were not so accepted > in the 1960's. > > I also give him credit for marrying, the woman> he loved, despite the fact that this was not encouraged by many people. > > To me that love that he felt for her is > apparent in the gallery pictures of nudes that they took > together, the way that they used to walk hand in hand and> in his devotion to the baby he had with her.>

June 7, 2006

I don't think you should say that all men are sexist because that simply is not true.

Jo

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Michael Benis

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 11:23 AM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Sure he did all that. He was a man and was sexist like all men are. But he wasn't only a man. And he thought twice and more about what he did. Maybe you want to read some of his interviews or even some of his lyrics.

I'm, glad you think you've got a handle on what men should be doing with women. But I have to say I think it pretty offensive you think you can be involved in feminist activism as a man. You're engaged in sorting yourself out and taking at look at how your identity has been influenced by your culture. That's good living in my book. The activism in sexual politics is how we construct our relationships and learn and change. Turn it into something else, especially just preaching and fighting the old patriarchal good and evil let's get offended with righteous indignation and draw up the battle lines way can just make it a badge for identity not necessarily living it. So, in my view, turning it into a battle where you're on the women's side could be and often is one hell of a manipulation. Many feminists have simply written it off as one of the best pick-up lines in the book.

Take that with a pinch of humour, I'm not meaning to be offensive to you, but I'd rather leave that sort of polarised purity stuff in centuries past.

Lennon hit a lot of bum notes in his life, but that also helped him get some of the "right" notes right.

On Behalf Of Peter06 June 2006 23:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

There's a huge difference between making "mistakes" and treating women like objects to be used as you like (and let's face it, he did a fair amount of that, playing on his fame to get women into bed, and showing absolutely no respect to even the women he claimed to love). I'm not saying that he didn't do some good things, but as someone who is involved in feminist activism, I find the suggestion that someone who treats women that way is a feminist to be rather offensive!

BB

Peter

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Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:38 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Such disregard, eh? Wait til you've made a few mistakes yourself! :-)

He wasn't the whole of any movement, but that's no reason to put down what he was - someone who cared, some who tried to make a difference etc.

I'll admit the "and more" was a bit of wind-up - but he was honest enough about his contradictions and in his thinking. No saint, but then let's leave that for the true believers....

Of course he wasn't vegan either....

But he was John Lennon and I'm thankful to him for that

On Behalf Of Peter06 June 2006 19:33 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

But he hardly constituted the whole feminist movement.... and I'd also wonder how anyone who treated women with quite such disregard could possibly be classified as a feminist!!!!

BB

Peter

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Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:21 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

He was part of the feminist movement, and more.

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell06 June 2006 16:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael & everyone

>>Was it due to him that America withdrew from Vietnam?

> Yes, and more

So, you wouldn't have said that the feminist movement had anything at all to do with it?????

BB

Peter

June 7, 2006

Michael

It may be difficult for you to understand, but if you had met Peter, you would.

Jo

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Michael Benis

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:33 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

What I was really saying to Peter as he came in crusading against JL as amale feminist knight in shining armour was: you may want to think twiceabout chucking stones and pointing fingers.That's aside from getting his facts right.In fact the whole message came over as clichéd polemic and an ad for his ownrighteous feminism.As for the "you have proved"... I'm afraid I think that's far toosimplistic. As is the idea that you suddenly stop being sexist because yousay you're a feminist. Sexual politics and the politics of identity is along haul life change, not a revelation on the road to Damascus, but manyover the course of many years, some of which we don't even notice at themtime. That's certainly how it's been for me. I certainly wanted to believe Iwas already as pure as the driven snow when I first started thinking andtalking about this stuff years ago, but then found I had a lot more to learnabout myself - and I sure as hell don't think I've got "there" yet.

..

June 7, 2006

Can you explain a different way what you are saying please.

Jo

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Michael Benis

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:37 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Calling it a movement is anachronistic.

I wasn't calling you sexist, though I think you were playing knight in shining armour - why just stick labels on Lennon and bang on about your activism otherwise?

And saying "it's in the genes" is to say you can't just put on a whiter-than-white shirt because you want one. It makes it more difficult, not easier, providing you don't use it as an excuse just top treat people badly. Saying it's not in the genes at all, however, that certainly makes things easier....

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell07 June 2006 13:47 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

I think when people call me sexist, I have every right to indignation, and it's a load of codswallop that this is a "patriachal" attitude. Although, I guess "it's in my genes" is a good excuse to not have to think about the way you treat other people.

And I didn't make any interpretation of your age, merely that your perception is some three decades out of date, and that perhaps you should get up to date with what a movement is before ascribing anachronistic attitudes to it.

BB

Peter

On 07/06/06, Michael Benis <michaelbenis wrote:

Well, that's obviously got your goat, which wasn't my intention. But if you like anger and indignation, you stick with it! Does it not occur that you are being both aggressive and offensive yourself in typical patriarchal fashion?

Men are sexist, I'm afraid. It's in the genes. The perspective we build on that and what else we are is another matter.

I shan't interpret your own reading or your age or judge it as you have seen fit to do with mine.

[ ] On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell07 June 2006 12:54

Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

>Sure he did all that. He was a man and was sexist like all men are.

Ummm - 'scuse me but that's obsolute tosh, and really rather offensive.

>I'm, glad you think you've got a handle on what men should be doing with women. But I have

> to say I think it pretty offensive you think you can be involved in feminist activism as a man.

Then you really need to do some reading on what feminism is about - it's not about a "battle" between men and women, but about breaking down barriers which seperate men and women.

>Turn it into something else, especially just preaching and fighting the old patriarchal good and

> evil let's get offended with righteous indignation and draw up the battle lines way can just

> make it a badge for identity not necessarily living it. So, in my view, turning it into a battle

> where you're on the women's side could be and often is one hell of a manipulation. Many

> feminists have simply written it off as one of the best pick-up lines in the book.

>Take that with a pinch of humour, I'm not meaning to be offensive to you, but I'd rather leave

> that sort of polarised purity stuff in centuries past.

Yep, I see that you still have a very 1970s view of radical feminism... you really need to catch up with the feminist movement by some 3 decades before commenting on it....

BB

Peter

June 7, 2006

Michael

Tell me why is anger and aggression patriachal?

To say that any behaviour is in the genes is simply not true. People behave exactly the way they ~choose~ to behave. Men are not sexist unless they have been reared sexist and failed to see the faults in it.

Jo

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Michael Benis

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:26 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Well, that's obviously got your goat, which wasn't my intention. But if you like anger and indignation, you stick with it! Does it not occur that you are being both aggressive and offensive yourself in typical patriarchal fashion?

Men are sexist, I'm afraid. It's in the genes. The perspective we build on that and what else we are is another matter.

I shan't interpret your own reading or your age or judge it as you have seen fit to do with mine.

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell07 June 2006 12:54 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration