John Lennon, my Inspiration

[Guest guest]

But surely that doesn't mean he didn't have any admirable qualities either? And even if he didn't in your eyes, does that mean others shouldn't admire him? It's not as if anyone was writing that they admired him because he left Cynthia or Yoko or May. Or as if anyone denied he had....

 

Can one only admire someone about whom you admire everything?

 

The fact that some people find some of Lennon's qualities admirable doesn't mean they they think he was infallible or even just a deity.

 

By the way, who was it who stopped the Vietnam war single-handed? Does anyone really think such achievements are open to single-handed achievement? Even Nixon knew when to be modest :-)

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell12 June 2006 09:04 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

Hi Anouk

 

>I often wonder,

>is there a double standard?

>for instance,

>i don't know a lot about heavy metal

>but I know that there must be plenty

>of heavy metal i.e. ozzy osbourn, etc.

 

No double standard. I enjoy Ozzy's music, but the guy is a complete bastard (the way he treated Sharon is worse worse than the way Lennon treated Yoko... he actually tried to kill her a couple of times).

 

Where you seem to make the mistake is in thinking that heavy metal fans "worship" people like Ozzy, like some people do with Lennon. Perhaps heavy metal fans are more able to seperate the quality of the music from the qualities of the individuals who are writing it?

 

And this is all I'm trying to say.... just beacuase people like Lennon's music, doesn't make him a nice person. It doesn't make him a deity, and he didn't stop the Vietnam war single handed.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Mike, The best post I`ve seen so far from you. Peace,love and understanding, thats all we ask for............ The Valley Vegan....................Michael Benis <michaelbenis wrote: Wow! I'm really sad to see this boiling up like this. A couple of people said they admire Lennon. This led to what I assumed (in the US punning sense) were

sarcastic put downs along the lines of did he end the Vietnam war singe-handed. I replied sarcastically "Yes... and more". I still can't understand anyone thinking that anyone else in their right mind would say that Lennon ended the Vietnam war and more single-handed! Come on! Someone said Lennon was a feminist and Peter K wrote he found that offensive to him as a radical feminist. I found that offensive myself and in a fine example of double standards (my own) launched a rather stupid one-line put down of holier-than thou so-called feminist men, which I is how I (mis)interpreted Peter. This launched into an up-and-down but serious discussion between me and Peter who for whom I have solid respect as a result. Whatever my own thoughts about the holier-than-thou postings criticising Lennon and presenting a one-side and uncompassionate judgement of his problems with Ono the fact remains that my initial sarcastic replies were disrespectful and antagonistic and I want to apologise not just to those on the list who felt offended by them but also to all those who got drawn into the subsequent exchanges of insults put-downs, takings of sides, disrespect of

differences and all that and the hurt which resulted. Whatever our differences about music or people with round glasses, I'd bet that all of us who got wrought up in this are also vegans for reasons of compassion. Let's try and be a bit more compassionate and sensitive about each other, hey? I'm trying to start now. Cheers Mike On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell12 June 2006 08:46 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration Hi Colin >hi peter. i have read the argument on this list for disliking john and there is enough >immunition to damn the most of us. You seem to have completely missed the point. This started because of the "hero worship" of the "perfect" John Lennon, who, according to one post single-handedly stopped the Vietnam war. I don't think that kind of hero worship is healthy for anyone, and was pointing out that, although Lennon did do a few good things, he wasn't the "deity" that some people like to make him out to be. >i am not taking part in an argument. I beg to differ - you clearly are! >john was a voice for a lot of us for decades. is a fact. Why, did you not have your own voice? >that u mastered three chords at 12 is irrelevant. :-) That depends on what we're discussing. If we're talking about how "complicated" the Beatles music was, then it's very relevant. (And actually, I mastered 3 chords at the age of 8, I just didn't start writing music until I was about 12). >i don't knock or mention, dr who supporters, which i could say something about, but i don't > like to get down to that level of communication if i can avoid it. You've managed to get way down below that level of communication here, by specifically "knocking" me! But then I don't think anyone here has claimed that Dr Who single handedly

stopped the Vietnam war... most of us just view it as an entertaining TV programme... much like a lot of people view John Lennon as an entertaining musician. I find it strange that people take such offence to this suggestion... >what we say is john was a fantastic human being and a fantastic example of a multi, multi > millionaire and a man of rare original thought. if u never could see this, that's okay, there is > no need to convince those that did that they are deluded. Y'see, I just don't see a great deal of "rare original thought". I see a good entertainer who had some nice pacifist ideas, but those ideas were hardly his own - he never even gave it a thought until he went to India and met influential

pacifists. Most of us (peace activists) have managed to come to the same conclusions without that same level of influence, so just how does this equate to "original thought"? > peace I love the way you make a swinging personal attack, and then put "peace". I do think that perhaps you should be more careful with the way you use words - peace has such lovely connotations, and it seems so sad that you dirty it in this way. Peter Peter H

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" and what makes most money is people who will do whatever the record companies tell them to do - not people who are politically active, and write protest songs.... " Well Anti Flag just signed with a major label................yahhh! The Valley Vegan.................Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Anouk >you must think about how this sounds, >when you say to someone, >"I was writting that stuff at 12 and my friends can write >better songs than Imagine." >if, they were, then they better Run, not walk... >to the nearest record executive, with their demos. I'm afraid that the music industry

never works on the quality of music - it works on how marketable the band / individual are. To the extent where the majority of songs which get into the charts aren't even written by the performers. Imagine would probably never have been heard by anyone except John's closest friends if he hadn't already been one of the most popular performers in the Western world - that occurred because he and the Beatles found themselves an excellent manager in their early days, who shaped the band into a marketable commodity. Personally, I have no desire to become famous, and most of the people who write the songs I know do it as an act of service for their communities - they do not wish to make money from their songs, but wish to share them, and do so by making them "copy-left". >they are sitting on a million dollars>and we need more songs like Imagine. Then just go along to

peace activist gatherings, and listen out :-) >by the way, if this guy Tony Clarskin was writing >beatles albums in his lunch hour.. >how come I've never heard of him? Because the Beatles had a far better manager than Magnum. There are many bands you've probably never heard of, doesn't mean that they aren't any good - it just means that they don't get played on the radio... When I worked in a recording studio I used to record a guy called "Paco".... every time he released a new album, he'd sell over quarter of a million in the first weekend of release, but because he did it all himself, and wasn't connected to a major record label, he's never been played on the radio, and you've almost certainly never heard of him. A few years back, the new Dream Theater album sold out in the entirity of the UK within 4 hours of release, while the number one album of the week still had hundreds

of copies sat in the shelves - yet DT never even got into the top 200... and you've probably never heard of them either. Sadly, the music industry doesn't work on what people want to hear, it works on who the music industry can make the most money from, and then these tracks flood the radio stations so that they are all most people get to hear... and what makes most money is people who will do whatever the record companies tell them to do - not people who are politically active, and write protest songs.... BB Peter , "Peter Kebbell" <metalscarabwrote:>> Hi Colin>> > jealous guy could'n't have been written by an average song writer only by> a musical genius> > with fantastic depth.>> Most of Lennon's material is

three chord songs. I was writing thatsort of> stuff when I was 12. As someone once said, Tony Clarkin could have knocked> out a whole Beatles album in his lunch hour...>> BB> Peter>

[Guest guest]

Hey Jo, If you play that e-mail backwards, it tells you to worship Fraggle! The Valley Vegan...............heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: Hi AnoukI must take you to task here. As you know I am a heavy metal fan. I am passionate about the music, but am sensible enough to know that I would not like most of the people and the things they do.I do not hold any heavy metal musician up as an icon. I will tell people when a heavy metal musician is talented, or whether I find his/her music exciting, but adoration is not something I do.Jo , "Anouk Sickler" wrote:>> hi colin, > > I often wonder, > > is there a double standard?>

for instance, > i don't know a lot about heavy metal> but I know that there must be plenty> of heavy metal i.e. ozzy osbourn, etc. > > who were unfaithful to their wives (hurt the people they love)> or had problems with heroin. > > yet their (heavy metal) fans love them > just the same. > listen to their music, and most importantly> do not judge them. > > you know, > they base their love more on the public persona> rather focus on personal private life of the musician. > > I do not put others people music down, > That is what makes them happy, > What is in their heart. > > and if that means disagreeing with the group owner, > the moderators, and his mom, so be it. > I would hate to be a member of a group> where > everybody was always pleasing each other. > that is boring and a waste of time.

> > > , "Colin Sky" wrote:> >> > hi peter. i have read the argument on this list for disliking john> and there is enough ammunition to damn the most of us.> > so i guess some would love to know more about me so they could then> carry on about me, eg. i have been unfaithful, have taken drugs....> and couldn't even play the damned guitar very well.... who needs> enemies when we have vegans here to judge us?> > > > i am not taking part in an argument. > > > > john was a voice for a lot of us for decades. is a fact.> > > > that u mastered three chords at 12 is irrelevant. :-) > > > > i don't knock or mention, dr who supporters, which i could say> something about, but i don't like to get down to that level of> communication if i can avoid it. > >

> > what we say is john was a fantastic human being and a fantastic> example of a multi, multi millionaire and a man of rare original> thought. if u never could see this, that's okay, there is no need to> convince those that did that they are deluded.> > > > stick with conversations about dr who. u are more knowlegeable about> him.> > > > > > peace> > > > colin> > > > - > > Peter > > > > Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:59 PM> > Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration> > > > > > > > Hi Colin> > > > >poppycock.> > > > Congratulations on a well reasoned argument there ;-)> > > > BB> > Peter>

>>

[Guest guest]

dammit...

my secret plans are foiled again

peter VV Jun 12, 2006 11:01 AM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hey Jo,

If you play that e-mail backwards, it tells you to worship Fraggle!

I don't wanna be no war hero

Don't want a movie made about me

I don't wanna be no war hero

Just get away from the madness I see

[Guest guest]

All hail Fraggle...............

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Monday, June 12, 2006 7:01 PM

Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

Hey Jo,

If you play that e-mail backwards, it tells you to worship Fraggle!

 

 

The Valley Vegan...............heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

Hi AnoukI must take you to task here. As you know I am a heavy metal fan. I am passionate about the music, but am sensible enough to know that I would not like most of the people and the things they do.I do not hold any heavy metal musician up as an icon. I will tell people when a heavy metal musician is talented, or whether I find his/her music exciting, but adoration is not something I do.Jo , "Anouk Sickler" wrote:>> hi colin, > > I often wonder, > > is there a double standard?> for instance, > i don't know a lot about heavy metal> but I know that there must be plenty> of heavy metal i.e. ozzy osbourn, etc. > > who were unfaithful to their wives (hurt the people they love)> or had problems with heroin. > > yet their (heavy metal) fans love them > just the same. > listen to their music, and most importantly> do not judge them. > > you know, > they base their love more on the public persona> rather focus on personal private life of the musician. > > I do not put others people music down, > That is what makes them happy, > What is in their heart. > > and if that means disagreeing with the group owner, > the moderators, and his mom, so be it. > I would hate to be a member of a group> where > everybody was always pleasing each other. > that is boring and a waste of time. > > > , "Colin Sky" wrote:> >> > hi peter. i have read the argument on this list for disliking john> and there is enough ammunition to damn the most of us.> > so i guess some would love to know more about me so they could then> carry on about me, eg. i have been unfaithful, have taken drugs....> and couldn't even play the damned guitar very well.... who needs> enemies when we have vegans here to judge us?> > > > i am not taking part in an argument. > > > > john was a voice for a lot of us for decades. is a fact.> > > > that u mastered three chords at 12 is irrelevant. :-) > > > > i don't knock or mention, dr who supporters, which i could say> something about, but i don't like to get down to that level of> communication if i can avoid it. > > > > what we say is john was a fantastic human being and a fantastic> example of a multi, multi millionaire and a man of rare original> thought. if u never could see this, that's okay, there is no need to> convince those that did that they are deluded.> > > > stick with conversations about dr who. u are more knowlegeable about> him.> > > > > > peace> > > > colin> > > > - > > Peter > > > > Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:59 PM> > Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration> > > > > > > > Hi Colin> > > > >poppycock.> > > > Congratulations on a well reasoned argument there ;-)> > > > BB> > Peter> >>

[Guest guest]

hmmm wot where huh???

sorry..i was just deleting all the lennon e-mails...

and missed this

beer?

wot ?

 

Peter Kebbell Jun 12, 2006 2:36 AM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

 

>I also like the George, though you have to be careful with beers - they don't have the vaguest

> idea what is vegan and what isn't - most aren't.

 

That surprises me, as they seem to understand with the meals... but then I don't drink, so won't be going near the beers anyway :-)

 

BB

Peter

I don't wanna be no war hero

Don't want a movie made about me

I don't wanna be no war hero

Just get away from the madness I see

[Guest guest]

Yes, they're fine with the food. Occasional slip-ups with soyamilk cappuccino. But Harvey's isn't vegan (or even vegetarian, same with Guinness) whereas the wheat beer that I can' remember the name of is, as is Carlsberg.....

 

 

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell12 June 2006 10:36 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

Hi Michael

 

>I also like the George, though you have to be careful with beers - they don't have the vaguest

> idea what is vegan and what isn't - most aren't.

 

That surprises me, as they seem to understand with the meals... but then I don't drink, so won't be going near the beers anyway :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Nothing to worry about. They're all empire of evil beers: Guinness, Interbrew etc. There is a little pub round the corner that does a nice organic vegan lager though... forgotten the name of that too...

 

Does beer make you forget things? I can't remember.....

 

 

On Behalf Of fraggle12 June 2006 21:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

hmmm wot where huh???

sorry..i was just deleting all the lennon e-mails...

and missed this

beer?

wot ?

 

Peter Kebbell Jun 12, 2006 2:36 AM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

 

>I also like the George, though you have to be careful with beers - they don't have the vaguest

> idea what is vegan and what isn't - most aren't.

 

That surprises me, as they seem to understand with the meals... but then I don't drink, so won't be going near the beers anyway :-)

 

BB

Peter

I don't wanna be no war hero

Don't want a movie made about me

I don't wanna be no war hero

Just get away from the madness I see

[Guest guest]

Us brits have it hard drinking out, as most ales seem to like isinglas and stuff, the only sure options are psudo american lite beer or one or two german bottled lagers...........no choice!.I can remember the days when little bottles of Guiness were vegan................why oh why Fraggle did they change it...why damn it......................booo hooooooo, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa The Valley Vegan................tonight I am mostly drinking organic cider.......Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Michael >I also like the George, though you have to be careful with beers - they don't have the vaguest > idea what is vegan and what

isn't - most aren't. That surprises me, as they seem to understand with the meals... but then I don't drink, so won't be going near the beers anyway :-) BB Peter Peter H

 

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[Guest guest]

i've heard two reasons...

one is pressure from CAMRA

the second was a change was decided after the got bought out by diageoand..there are lotsa english ales you can drink, just have to be careful, and almost invariably stay away from anything in the pub

 

peter VV Jun 12, 2006 1:30 PM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Us brits have it hard drinking out, as most ales seem to like isinglas and stuff, the only sure options are psudo american lite beer or one or two german bottled lagers...........no choice!.I can remember the days when little bottles of Guiness were vegan................why oh why Fraggle did they change it...why damn it......................booo hooooooo, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

The Valley Vegan................tonight I am mostly drinking organic cider.......Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Michael

 

>I also like the George, though you have to be careful with beers - they don't have the vaguest

> idea what is vegan and what isn't - most aren't.

 

That surprises me, as they seem to understand with the meals... but then I don't drink, so won't be going near the beers anyway :-)

 

BB

Peter

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

Defending this corruption on which you are sat

You tell me what to think, you tell me this and that

`Freedom is O.K. you scum` but make sure it`s never used

In your defence of liberty I always stand accused

[Guest guest]

Tonight I drank one soya coffee, one cup of rooibos tea and one elderflower and apple juice. I love elderflower.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Monday, June 12, 2006 9:30 PM

Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

Us brits have it hard drinking out, as most ales seem to like isinglas and stuff, the only sure options are psudo american lite beer or one or two german bottled lagers...........no choice!.I can remember the days when little bottles of Guiness were vegan................why oh why Fraggle did they change it...why damn it......................booo hooooooo, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

The Valley Vegan................tonight I am mostly drinking organic cider.......Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Michael

 

>I also like the George, though you have to be careful with beers - they don't have the vaguest

> idea what is vegan and what isn't - most aren't.

 

That surprises me, as they seem to understand with the meals... but then I don't drink, so won't be going near the beers anyway :-)

 

BB

Peter

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

how dare they make the elixir of the gawds into anything remotely evil!!!

*shakes fist up at sky*

 

Michael Benis Jun 12, 2006 1:28 PM RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Nothing to worry about. They're all empire of evil beers: Guinness, Interbrew etc. There is a little pub round the corner that does a nice organic vegan lager though... forgotten the name of that too...

 

Does beer make you forget things? I can't remember.....

 

 

On Behalf Of fraggle12 June 2006 21:06 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

hmmm wot where huh???

sorry..i was just deleting all the lennon e-mails...

and missed this

beer?

wot ?

 

Peter Kebbell Jun 12, 2006 2:36 AM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Hi Michael

 

>I also like the George, though you have to be careful with beers - they don't have the vaguest

> idea what is vegan and what isn't - most aren't.

 

That surprises me, as they seem to understand with the meals... but then I don't drink, so won't be going near the beers anyway :-)

 

BB

Peter I don't wanna be no war hero

Don't want a movie made about me

I don't wanna be no war hero

Just get away from the madness I see

Defending this corruption on which you are sat

You tell me what to think, you tell me this and that

`Freedom is O.K. you scum` but make sure it`s never used

In your defence of liberty I always stand accused

[Guest guest]

There are some very nice new ones. Got some porter by a Scot's microbrewery from Infinity the other day. Worse things have definitely happened to me... :-)

 

 

On Behalf Of fraggle12 June 2006 22:13 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

i've heard two reasons...

one is pressure from CAMRA

the second was a change was decided after the got bought out by diageoand..there are lotsa english ales you can drink, just have to be careful, and almost invariably stay away from anything in the pub

 

peter VV Jun 12, 2006 1:30 PM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

Us brits have it hard drinking out, as most ales seem to like isinglas and stuff, the only sure options are psudo american lite beer or one or two german bottled lagers...........no choice!.I can remember the days when little bottles of Guiness were vegan................why oh why Fraggle did they change it...why damn it......................booo hooooooo, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

The Valley Vegan................tonight I am mostly drinking organic cider.......Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Michael

 

>I also like the George, though you have to be careful with beers - they don't have the vaguest

> idea what is vegan and what isn't - most aren't.

 

That surprises me, as they seem to understand with the meals... but then I don't drink, so won't be going near the beers anyway :-)

 

BB

Peter

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

Defending this corruption on which you are sat

You tell me what to think, you tell me this and that

`Freedom is O.K. you scum` but make sure it`s never used

In your defence of liberty I always stand accused

[Guest guest]

great story. u r legendary character too. :-)

 

my greatest dissapointed btw about john was he never embraced pink floyd who were my real musical heros...

 

peace

 

colin

 

 

 

-

Anouk Sickler

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:13 PM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

hi michael, I'd be curious to know how many of us were vegetariansback in the 1970's certainly it was much harder. I am one of the rare onesand was born a vegetarianin that sense I have never tasted meat or fish. however, I know for sure that itwas damn hard, my mom and I walked for milestrying to find a health food storewhen I was a kid. and when they feed me soya milk it tasted gross. back then, it tasted nothing like it does today. so who are we to judge someone for not being vegetarian in the 1970's?Vegetarianism/veganism is something that is progressing with people'sgrowing awareness everyday.any naturally evolving person would reach it, and it's ok to stumble. , "Michael Benis" <michaelbeniswrote:>> He was never really big on vegetarianism ever and never claimed to be.> > His most dangerous drug part from heroin was booze and he largelystopped> it. > > Learning and changing doesn't mean becoming perfect.> > > > > On> Behalf Of jo> 08 June 2006 20:45> > Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration> > He didn't learn though. He kept going back to drugs - just like he kept> having a go at pretending to be vegetarian and deviating from it.> > Jo> >

[Guest guest]

hi jo

 

comment is good as it offers another view.

 

i am not an icon so don't worry. :-)

 

peace

 

colin.

 

 

 

-

heartwerk

Monday, June 12, 2006 6:28 PM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

ColinWhat makes you think that just because you say you won't become involved in an argument other people will not comment on what you have said.Personally I am not interested in your faults and wrong-doings as, as far as I am aware, not many people have said you are an icon to be admired.Jo , "Colin Sky" <colinsky wrote:>> hi peter. i have read the argument on this list for disliking john and there is enough ammunition to damn the most of us.> so i guess some would love to know more about me so they could then carry on about me, eg. i have been unfaithful, have taken drugs.... and couldn't even play the damned guitar very well.... who needs enemies when we have vegans here to judge us?> > i am not taking part in an argument. > > john was a voice for a lot of us for decades. is a fact.> > that u mastered three chords at 12 is irrelevant. :-) > > i don't knock or mention, dr who supporters, which i could say something about, but i don't like to get down to that level of communication if i can avoid it. > > what we say is john was a fantastic human being and a fantastic example of a multi, multi millionaire and a man of rare original thought. if u never could see this, that's okay, there is no need to convince those that did that they are deluded.> > stick with conversations about dr who. u are more knowlegeable about him.> > > peace> > colin> > - > Peter > > Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:59 PM> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration> > > > Hi Colin> > >poppycock.> > Congratulations on a well reasoned argument there ;-)> > BB> Peter>

[Guest guest]

hi anouk... not all marriages work perfectly, neither does all music please all people.

 

i am faithful, but not to blind convention.

 

peace

 

colin.

 

 

 

-

 

Anouk Sickler

Monday, June 12, 2006 4:05 PM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

hi colin, I often wonder, is there a double standard?for instance, i don't know a lot about heavy metalbut I know that there must be plentyof heavy metal i.e. ozzy osbourn, etc. who were unfaithful to their wives (hurt the people they love)or had problems with heroin. yet their (heavy metal) fans love them just the same. listen to their music, and most importantlydo not judge them. you know, they base their love more on the public personarather focus on personal private life of the musician. I do not put others people music down, That is what makes them happy, What is in their heart. and if that means disagreeing with the group owner, the moderators, and his mom, so be it. I would hate to be a member of a groupwhere everybody was always pleasing each other. that is boring and a waste of time. , "Colin Sky" <colinsky wrote:>> hi peter. i have read the argument on this list for disliking johnand there is enough ammunition to damn the most of us.> so i guess some would love to know more about me so they could thencarry on about me, eg. i have been unfaithful, have taken drugs....and couldn't even play the damned guitar very well.... who needsenemies when we have vegans here to judge us?> > i am not taking part in an argument. > > john was a voice for a lot of us for decades. is a fact.> > that u mastered three chords at 12 is irrelevant. :-) > > i don't knock or mention, dr who supporters, which i could saysomething about, but i don't like to get down to that level ofcommunication if i can avoid it. > > what we say is john was a fantastic human being and a fantasticexample of a multi, multi millionaire and a man of rare originalthought. if u never could see this, that's okay, there is no need toconvince those that did that they are deluded.> > stick with conversations about dr who. u are more knowlegeable abouthim.> > > peace> > colin> > - > Peter > > Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:59 PM> Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration> > > > Hi Colin> > >poppycock.> > Congratulations on a well reasoned argument there ;-)> > BB> Peter>

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

>> " and what makes most money is people who will do whatever the record companies tell

>> them to do - not people who are politically active, and write protest songs.... "

>Well Anti Flag just signed with a major label................yahhh!

 

Anti Flag are already making money... they wouldn't have had a hope of getting with a major label at the start of their career, and chances are that they won't last long there unless they do exactly what they're told...

 

 

BBPeter

[Guest guest]

hi nikki,

 

it's just that there is a quote from the bible

that I have in my head, (too many years of bible school)

 

that says " do not look at the speck in your neighbor's eye

before you look in the mirror and remove your own speck "

 

or something like that.

 

since you guys are always talking/admiring heavy metal bands,

and you are always cheering Peter and Jo.. I lumped you all

together. Sorry.

 

it seems that no one was looking at the speck in heavy metal,

just the speck in John Lennons eye.

 

 

 

 

, " earthstrm " <earthstorm wrote:

>

> Hi Jo/Anouk

>

> I have to agree with you completely Jo. As a Heavy Metal fan as well

> as a fan of other types of music too.

>

> I don't think Anouk meant such a biased opinion, but it definately

> not was a fair one.

>

> It takes all sorts to make up any one " group " of people. Just look

> at us here on Vegan Chat. It is not fair to lump everyone who

> listens to metal into a certain class. They do that enough with

> Vegans as it is.

>

> BB

> Nikki

>

>

> , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Anouk

> >

> > I must take you to task here. As you know I am a heavy metal

> fan. I

> > am passionate about the music, but am sensible enough to know that

> I

> > would not like most of the people and the things they do.

> >

> > I do not hold any heavy metal musician up as an icon. I will tell

> > people when a heavy metal musician is talented, or whether I find

> > his/her music exciting, but adoration is not something I do.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > , " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > hi colin,

> > >

> > > I often wonder,

> > >

> > > is there a double standard?

> > > for instance,

> > > i don't know a lot about heavy metal

> > > but I know that there must be plenty

> > > of heavy metal i.e. ozzy osbourn, etc.

> > >

> > > who were unfaithful to their wives (hurt the people they love)

> > > or had problems with heroin.

> > >

> > > yet their (heavy metal) fans love them

> > > just the same.

> > > listen to their music, and most importantly

> > > do not judge them.

> > >

> > > you know,

> > > they base their love more on the public persona

> > > rather focus on personal private life of the musician.

> > >

> > > I do not put others people music down,

> > > That is what makes them happy,

> > > What is in their heart.

> > >

> > > and if that means disagreeing with the group owner,

> > > the moderators, and his mom, so be it.

> > > I would hate to be a member of a group

> > > where

> > > everybody was always pleasing each other.

> > > that is boring and a waste of time.

> > >

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

We'll look out for them in the charts then :-)

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Monday, June 12, 2006 6:59 PM

Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

" and what makes most money is people who will do whatever the record companies tell them to do - not people who are politically active, and write protest songs.... "

 

Well Anti Flag just signed with a major label................yahhh!

 

The Valley Vegan.................Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

 

Hi Anouk

 

>you must think about how this sounds,

>when you say to someone,

>"I was writting that stuff at 12 and my friends can write

>better songs than Imagine."

>if, they were, then they better Run, not walk...

>to the nearest record executive, with their demos.

 

I'm afraid that the music industry never works on the quality of music - it works on how marketable the band / individual are. To the extent where the majority of songs which get into the charts aren't even written by the performers. Imagine would probably never have been heard by anyone except John's closest friends if he hadn't already been one of the most popular performers in the Western world - that occurred because he and the Beatles found themselves an excellent manager in their early days, who shaped the band into a marketable commodity.

 

Personally, I have no desire to become famous, and most of the people who write the songs I know do it as an act of service for their communities - they do not wish to make money from their songs, but wish to share them, and do so by making them "copy-left".

 

>they are sitting on a million dollars>and we need more songs like Imagine.

 

Then just go along to peace activist gatherings, and listen out :-)

 

>by the way, if this guy Tony Clarskin was writing

>beatles albums in his lunch hour..

>how come I've never heard of him?

 

Because the Beatles had a far better manager than Magnum. There are many bands you've probably never heard of, doesn't mean that they aren't any good - it just means that they don't get played on the radio... When I worked in a recording studio I used to record a guy called "Paco".... every time he released a new album, he'd sell over quarter of a million in the first weekend of release, but because he did it all himself, and wasn't connected to a major record label, he's never been played on the radio, and you've almost certainly never heard of him. A few years back, the new Dream Theater album sold out in the entirity of the UK within 4 hours of release, while the number one album of the week still had hundreds of copies sat in the shelves - yet DT never even got into the top 200... and you've probably never heard of them either.

 

Sadly, the music industry doesn't work on what people want to hear, it works on who the music industry can make the most money from, and then these tracks flood the radio stations so that they are all most people get to hear... and what makes most money is people who will do whatever the record companies tell them to do - not people who are politically active, and write protest songs....

 

BB

Peter

, "Peter Kebbell" <metalscarabwrote:>> Hi Colin>> > jealous guy could'n't have been written by an average song writer only by> a musical genius> > with fantastic depth.>> Most of Lennon's material is three chord songs. I was writing thatsort of> stuff when I was 12. As someone once said, Tony Clarkin could have knocked> out a whole Beatles album in his lunch hour...>> BB> Peter>

[Guest guest]

That hopped in too.

 

Jo

 

-

Michael Benis

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:29 PM

RE: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

I thought it had turned into a beer thread!

 

 

On Behalf Of Peter Kebbell13 June 2006 13:47 Subject: Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

Hi Michael

 

>I'm not at all sure that idolisation is what anyone was discussing.

 

I think the real problem was that people started saying that he ended the Vietnam War (and although you later mentioned that you'd said so sarcastically, your post was in response to the initial implication that he had).

 

>Some people were accused of idolisation because they said they admired Lennon or were

> inspired by him, as we can see from the title of the first post.

 

I've heard phrases like "Lennon was my voice". That's a touch more than admiration.

 

No-one would even have commented if the comments on Lennon had merely been "I thought he wrote great music", or "I appreciated that he was involved in peace activism" - it was the fact that the comments went much further than this that got some of us pointing out that he wasn't perfect.... which now seems to have been agreed by everyone, so it seems rather odd that this thread is still going....

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

> it's just that there is a quote from the bible

> that I have in my head, (too many years of bible school)

> that says " do not look at the speck in your neighbor's eye

> before you look in the mirror and remove your own speck "

 

Well, let's just hope you didn't get a scripture knowledge prize (BTW,

anyone who reads PG Wodehouse will find that comment hilarious... everyone

else will wonder what the heck I'm talking about... but it's not offensive

in any way :-))

 

> it seems that no one was looking at the speck in heavy metal,

> just the speck in John Lennons eye.

 

I don't really see why anyone would even want to compare comments about John

Lennon with " heavy metal " in general. Particularly since John Lennon is one

person, and heavy metal encompasses several thousand. People are people, and

it really seems largely irrelevant what music they play as to what they are

like as people. I admire the musicianship of many bands, but don't really

know a great deal about the people involved - I'm interested in the music,

not the " celebrity " aspects. I guess that's where heavy metal fans often

confuse other music fans, since a lot of pop music fans seem to also be

obsessed with the lives of the people who make the music they enjoy (at

least if the magazines are anything to go by). In fact, just having a quick

look through my CD collection, the only " personal " things I know about any

band members is why people have left bands (like Zak Stevens left Savatage

because he had a young baby who he wanted to spend more time with or Danny

Vaughn left Tyketto because he wanted to support his wife when she got

cancer), and a few things about how singers treat their voices (i.e. that

Ronnie Dio doesn't drink alcohol because it affects the voice) - but that's

purely because I am a singer, and like to know " tips " from the singers whose

musical abilities I admire. But I wouldn't put any of these people on a

pedestal, and I wouldn't generally make any comment about what I thought of

them as people, since I don't know!

 

Of course, you do seem to have somewhat misunderstood the suggested course

of action from the Bible... it is suggesting that you should treat yourself

before you treat others (in either a good or a bad way).... since none of us

on here have control of heavy metal, it would be impossible for us to

" remove the speck " from its eye... besides which, you can find a line in the

bible to support any argument you want if you can be bothered to look.

 

And while I don't particularly think the ten commandments are the best

method of living life, it does seem rather ironic to use the bible to

support someone who blatantly and repeatedly broke the 7th one ;-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki

 

I do agree. There are people I like and people I don't like in all sorts of

groups of people.

 

BB

Jo

 

-

" earthstrm " <earthstorm

 

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 5:07 PM

Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

 

 

> Hi Jo/Anouk

>

> I have to agree with you completely Jo. As a Heavy Metal fan as well

> as a fan of other types of music too.

>

> I don't think Anouk meant such a biased opinion, but it definately

> not was a fair one.

>

> It takes all sorts to make up any one " group " of people. Just look

> at us here on Vegan Chat. It is not fair to lump everyone who

> listens to metal into a certain class. They do that enough with

> Vegans as it is.

>

> BB

> Nikki

[Guest guest]

rebcca's dad was, so she was raised mostly vegan

she was/is extremely lactose intolerant...she got hospitalized in shock as a wee

one after eating some milk product

 

and, now her poor dad is typical american, heavily overweight with gobs of heart

problems and the only green things he eats are M & M's

 

 

 

>jo <jo.heartwork

>Jun 13, 2006 11:09 AM

>

>Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

>I tried it for a couple of years at the beginning of the 70s. Not having

>much knowledge of how to get information, or where to buy things, I gave it

>up when I became pregnant.

>

>Jo

>

>-

> " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx

>

>Monday, June 12, 2006 5:42 PM

>Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>

>

>> my partner rebecca was....

>>

>>

>> >Anouk Sickler <zurumato

>> >Jun 11, 2006 7:13 PM

>> >

>> > Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration

>> >

>> >hi michael,

>> >

>> >I'd be curious

>> >to know how

>> >many of us were

>> >vegetarians

>> >back in the 1970's

 

 

Defending this corruption on which you are sat

You tell me what to think, you tell me this and that

`Freedom is O.K. you scum` but make sure it`s never used

In your defence of liberty I always stand accused

[Guest guest]

I doubt it, certainly not in America, wont get airplay, not much chance over here either. I cant see the major label changing them much. The new album still has all their political views, and they havent been asked ( yet ) to tone it down. The Valley Vegan............. (Stand Up! Resist!) Monsanto are killers, k-k-k-k-killers (Stand Up! Resist!) Syngenta are killers, k-k-k-k-killers (Stand Up! Resist!) The World Bank are killers, k-k-k-k-killers (Stand Up! Resist!) (Stand Up! Resist!) The WTO are killers, k-k-k-k-killers (Stand Up! Resist!) jo <jo.heartwork wrote: We'll look out for them in the charts then :-) Jo - peter VV Monday, June 12, 2006 6:59 PM Re: Re: John Lennon, my Inspiration " and what makes most money is people who will do whatever the record companies tell them to do - not people who are politically active, and write protest songs.... "

Well Anti Flag just signed with a major label................yahhh! The Valley Vegan.................Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Anouk >you must think about how this sounds, >when you say to someone, >"I was writting that stuff at 12 and my friends can write >better songs than Imagine." >if, they were, then they better Run, not walk... >to the nearest record executive, with their demos. I'm afraid that the music industry never works on the quality of music - it works on how marketable the band / individual are. To the extent where the majority of songs which get into the

charts aren't even written by the performers. Imagine would probably never have been heard by anyone except John's closest friends if he hadn't already been one of the most popular performers in the Western world - that occurred because he and the Beatles found themselves an excellent manager in their early days, who shaped the band into a marketable commodity. Personally, I have no desire to become famous, and most of the people who write the songs I know do it as an act of service for their communities - they do not wish to make money from their songs, but wish to share them, and do so by making them "copy-left". >they are sitting on a million dollars>and we need more songs like Imagine. Then just go along to peace activist gatherings, and listen out :-) >by the way, if this guy Tony Clarskin was writing >beatles

albums in his lunch hour.. >how come I've never heard of him? Because the Beatles had a far better manager than Magnum. There are many bands you've probably never heard of, doesn't mean that they aren't any good - it just means that they don't get played on the radio... When I worked in a recording studio I used to record a guy called "Paco".... every time he released a new album, he'd sell over quarter of a million in the first weekend of release, but because he did it all himself, and wasn't connected to a major record label, he's never been played on the radio, and you've almost certainly never heard of him. A few years back, the new Dream Theater album sold out in the entirity of the UK within 4 hours of release, while the number one album of the week still had hundreds of copies sat in the shelves - yet DT never even got into the top 200... and you've probably never heard of them either. Sadly, the music industry doesn't work on what people want to hear, it works on who the music industry can make the most money from, and then these tracks flood the radio stations so that they are all most people get to hear... and what makes most money is people who will do whatever the record companies tell them to do - not people who are politically active, and write protest songs.... BB Peter , "Peter Kebbell" <metalscarabwrote:>> Hi Colin>> > jealous guy could'n't have been written by an average song writer only by> a musical genius> > with fantastic depth.>> Most of Lennon's material is three chord songs. I was writing thatsort of> stuff when I was 12. As someone once said, Tony Clarkin could have knocked> out a

whole Beatles album in his lunch hour...>> BB> Peter>