Bhakta Don Muntean

Maybe they were - or - maybe someone re-wrote them after the fact - as is happening to Srila Prabhupada...

...if you think that that's up to you - but she hasn't really helped anyone - really - and - what were her views on God?

You had me taking you serious - then that.

Well this is an interesting point that has a simple explanation. All peoples who have a scripture and an organized group think [or have thought] that they are the 'chosen'. Even vaishnavas think that India was the 'chosen' land of Krishna. We can all be the chosen of the Lord - each in his own way. We can see that in terms of the peoples round about Israel God found these peoples had severe limitations in being able to turn away from false worship - it was the Hebrews who demonstrated that they could do that. Thus when the Lord gave the Law to them - it was a special bestowment - one that the others couldn't enter into. We can see that in the Torah they are told to accept the strangers who accept the Lord - so their exclusivity wasn't seminal. In India we see diverse faiths from time immemorial - some of these faiths are enlightned some are not. One could say that in India the remnants of this ancient time still holds sway. That is why Krishna says that we are to know that whatever we sacrifice to 'other gods' is meant for Him - that He is the only enjoyer and object of sacrifice and to not recognize this is to fall down - He tells us that those who worship 'other gods' are not very intelligent - He goes further and says that we are to give up all sorts of religions and surrender to Him. He tells us that he alone can save us. Thus we tend to think that we are 'the chosen' when we surrender to Him? There are so many aspects to chosen and how this might be understood. I think that we also have to see that God is going to enter into a covenant - with all flesh. At that time every nation shall have a place in the service of the Lord - and as we know - one trancendental service is not different from another - one who serves on the altar is as important to the Lord as he who sweeps the temple. Thus on this brief explication ask - if the Hebrews really thought that they are the only chosen of God - they would not entertain these noted inclusive teachings. Also H.P. Blavatsky was a crank - an opportunist of the spiritualist era - a 19th century fraud who had no right to comment on the things she did. Her first error? She thought that she was the authority! YS, BDM

Vyasa saw our world. He knew that 'hair' would be the sign of good looks - he knew that justice would have a price - he knew everything about our 'modern' world. He presents things in the scriptures that He knows we are going to need - these may take the form of sacred dialogues narrations of great events and of course pastimes of the Lord. He knew in modern kali yuga times people would become very lusty - thus he presents these pastimes as an alternative to the lusty soul - an alternative to expression of these desires in a conditioned and sinful manner. Thus if we sincerely hear these pastimes [while engaged in devotional service] from a bonafide source - i.e.: an authorized Teacher - then - over time we shall become less inclined to think of the lusty affairs of the conditioned soul. We should never consider these pastimes to be like the activities of conditioned living entities. We should be careful in this regard. YS, BDM

You didn't imply that [vani/vapu] in your original posting. So you're saying that you know that he read Prabhupada's books? Can that be verified objectively? How did you learn of this? As I'd love to read more about this. YS, BDM

Where do you get all this from? Srila Prabhupada didn't meet with John Paul II - if he did - could you present some proof? We do need to stick to the facts... YS, BDM

Well now - you've changed the subject - from God and religious principles - to meat eating and diet. Without a doubt - the biblical tradition appears to condone and even encourage the flesh diet yet - further study shows otherwise. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. [isaiah 65.25] For you will have a covenant with the stones of the field, and the wild animals will be at peace with you. [Job 5.23] There are many many more texts like this... Paul even says [in your quote]: 'It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.' So what is he saying? Why was it an issue this eating meat? Why this advice at all? Was it all to do with idol offerings and unclean meats? No. Also there was no way that Paul could amend the law in this connection - as it is written here: It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood. [Lev., 3.17] How many people eating flesh with fat and blood still in it? Of course one could take the position that here God is introducing a trick edict - because one cannot remove all the blood from the meat. The biblical tradition has a serious basis for a flesh free life - it's just been lost but - you too can help to restore it. Do you even think it's important to try? Yes you may find verses that seem to endorse these things - but you [everyone] must understand the various times and circumstances of all these things - to make closed and broad 'forever' judgements is a waste and - unfair... How much Biblical materials have you really read? Have you ever searched an online bible? You should try it. The point is this - don't plant seeds of hate and strife between the faiths - even if we do have such expansive differences - because - at the end of the day - even though we and our faiths are many - The Object of our Faiths - is O-N-E. What faith were you before you came to Krishna? [if you don't mind my asking] ys, BDM

You just don't get it - so what - fight with everybody - who cares? You didn't look into the 'origins of the satan myth' thread - why not? Your business is to find the real truth and to present it in a way that brings people together - obviously you are not up to the task - shame - you might have become a little more broad-minded yourself... I have an - why don't you go check into the proper translation of the word "comes" in John 14.6 - you'll see your starting point... Look at these? http://www.jesusveg.com/popecats.html http://www.goveg.com/f-popebenedictxvi.asp Find this tune and hear it: <table nof="LY" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="661"><tbody><tr align="left" valign="top"><td style="vertical-align: top;"> </td><td colspan="5"> </td> <td colspan="2" class="TextObject" width="424"> Us and Them (Waters, Wright) 7:40 Us, and them And after all we're only ordinary men. Me, and you. God only knows it's noz what we would choose to do. Forward he cried from the rear and the front rank died. And the general sat and the lines on the map moved from side to side. Black and blue And who knows which is which and who is who. Up and down. But in the end it's only round and round. Haven't you heard it's a battle of words The poster bearer cried. Listen son, said the man with the gun There's room for you inside. "I mean, they're not gunna kill ya, so if you give 'em a quick short, sharp, shock, they won't do it again. Dig it? I mean he get off lightly, 'cos I would've given him a thrashing - I only hit him once! It was only a difference of opinion, but really...I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh?" Down and out It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about. With, without. And who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about? Out of the way, it's a busy day I've got things on my mind. For the want of the price of tea and a slice The old man died. </td></tr></tbody></table>

Preaching to the world - without trying! Just see - a simple poster on the wall builds bridges between faith groups! I'd love to see the poster full... I'm looking forward to seeing the completed murtis on this thread. Before I forget - are you still working on placing Prabhupada videos on line here? Yer servant, BDM

The veda base with - the search engine...

Well you clearly have failed to see what Prabhupada says on the issue. Prabhupada says that just as the four pillars of sin are universal - so too are the four principles of religion: The principles of religion, namely austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness, as we have already discussed, may be followed by the follower of any faith. There is no need to turn from Hindu to Mohammedan to Christian or some other faith and thus become a renegade and not follow the principles of religion. The Bhagavatam religion urges following the principles of religion. [sB 1.17.32, purport] That is one of many such quotes - so the point is your own bias and prejudice is making you see things the way you do. You accuse these other groups of exclusivity and harshness and then display it yourself. My point wasn't that one would be preaching the scriptures of one faith in the pulpits of others - the point was that we could in communications center on the things that we have in common. Are you going to wait to change your attitude? You won't till they do? Well you're not setting any example in that approach are you? Another thing - you judge entire faiths for the actions of some of the followers - past and present - but you again fail to see that that is just an excuse for your own bias against these faiths - if they don't follow then the whole tradition is crap - in this you center on the parts of their scritpures that you feel are bogus. If you go search and read the 'origins of the satan myth' thread you'll see that all this has been discussed - that people in those traditions can [when reading out of context] find [so-called] objectionable materials within vedic texts - all kinds of things - so really it is a two-way affair. So next time you think about how bad 'they' are just try to see how they may look at you in the same way. Time to change this mindset dear soul. YS, BDM

Very Nice! I note that there is a nice poster of Lord Jesus in the background of this picture! Who is it at the top of this poster - I wish the poster could be copied and posted here?

Well in the Gita Krishna says the same thing; 'look you I'm supreme and all others are not - surrender to Me only' - so it is a matter of semantics in terms of the biblical version of this order from God. Don't paint all Jews and Christians with the same lame broad brush because - they don't all feel that way. The scriptures of both can be presented in light of the teachings of the Vedas - in particular vaishnavism - it is up to you to read the scriptures and see where that is and - work with it. You say that you have to defend hindu faith from these groups - how is it you intend to do that? A continuance of the 'us and them' mindset? Think about it - how can there be peace on earth with that scenario? Also - you should look into Hebrew prophesy to see that in the so-called messianic era there shall be an inter-faith brotherhood of nations: ...neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken. For let all the peoples walk each one in the name of its god, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. [Micah 4.3-5] One could even say: For let all the peoples walk each one in their name for God So - with that one example - we have to ask - if the faith of the Hebrews is so intolerant then - why this prophesy of a future time when humanity no longer makes war nor fights over religion and/or God? Do you want to see that day? You do know that a hare krishna global conversion isn't going to happen [at least not in this century ] - so what then of our future? Do we continue to encourage the strife and differences or do we encourage the opposite? You decide where you fit in. I'm for ya... YS, BDM

No and - yes. YS, BDM

I would say it's the opposite - as only the Unlimited could expand Himself into all these murti forms - and yet still be the complete whole residing in the spiritual sky.

So who is that in the middle of China?

Hari Bolo! Prabhupada writes to the mother of that wise young girl: "Lord Jesus is a living example how one has to suffer in this material world simply for the matter of preaching the message of God." [Letter November 19, 1965] YS, BDM

Hey please don't single out America here - that is everyone's problem to some measure or another. There isn't any nation that isn't duplicitous and materialistic. I'll go as far as saying that in today's world - there are as many vaishnava's who are that way - as there aren't.

"most historians would dispute your claims that pre-biblical "pagans"....worship was as bloody as the Bible makes it." Not all were - but the ones in the middle east were - do you deny well known history? Well of course you do! "true" believers - well isn't that what you are supposed to be? How do people handle it when you say that Hare Krishna has all the answers? How do you hide your exclusivity to the truth? So as I said - I know already what you think and you know already what I think - right? Let's see a biased movie about hindu/vedic history - would you be happy to see a atheistic presentation of that too? You sure still suffer from an extreme 'us and them' mindset - in opposition to the Teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada... YS, BDM

God Bless you and - you'll one day see many of your Christian brothers and sisters come around - I know many who accept that Krishna is the same God as the God of the biblical tradition. YS, BDM

I understand peoples desire to see Christians destoyed. That's not exactly what you meant - i think you meant christian enmity not christians? YS, BDM

What were the customary rituals of the nations round about Israel? Human sacrifice - in particular child sacrifices and they also had temple prostitutes in most of these places - the religions in the nations round about Israel were not real faiths that had origins in God or truth - the gods of these peoples were not real - they were imagined - although the horrible rituals to worship these false gods were all too real. If you had to look out for a people - would you want them to intermingle with these kinds of people? If you were trying to bring them to God's service within that environment - what would you have done? As for the ABC trash film - they made the same error you did! Do recall in our discussions that you said that they killed women and children after the golden calf incident - recall that I quoted the narrative and - it says "men" - so why did they make that same error? Couldn't the writers of that film read? Or was there another reason that the real textual information was omitted? So in any case I know what you think and you know what I think as we've been over these points in 'the origins of the satan myth' thread? YS, BDM

Yes Krishna did that stuff in the 'old testement' - but He did not send Jesus to die for your sins. " Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." [Galatians 6.7] God has numberless incarntions - pleanary portions etc., so why isn't Yahweh [Jehovah is a mistranslation] an 'aspect' of God? Have you read the Torah? Have you read the Vedas? They are not dissimilar. Of course Krishna was the first to say that we are saved by Grace not works: Though engaged in all kinds of activities, My devotee, under My protection, reaches the eternal and imperishable abode by My grace. [bG 18.56] Of course we know God also says: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live in Me always, without a doubt. [bG 12.8] Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. [Deuteronomy 6.4-5] I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down. [bG 9.24] So in any case God is God as Gold is Gold - no matter in whose hands it falls. YS, BDM

Not exactly - that is how he answered - when asked if here were messiah...he often openly told people he was the son of God.