Bhakta Don Muntean

Indeed that is a quick way to become infected with someone else's modes - eat that which is made by them! In defense of the white chocolate - it's made by machines - like most packaged candies etc., so get it and offer it - we offer other things made by karmis don't we? YS, BDM

So - of the three - two are misguided - one is lost alltogether... Well I know that if I had to choose - I'd rather have these two over that 'other one' - wouldn't you? At least misguided souls are less of an issue to deal with than lost souls...

If this matter doesn't speak to 'why' Mr. Bush and Team MUST defeat the Isalmofacist freaks out there...

With the growth of the body, the living entity, in order to vanquish his soul, increases his false prestige and anger and thereby creates enmity towards similarly lusty people. By such ignorance the living entity accepts the material body, which is made of five elements, as himself. With this misunderstanding, he accepts nonpermanent things as his own and increases his ignorance in the darkest region. For the sake of the body, which is a source of constant trouble to him and which follows him because he is bound by ties of ignorance and fruitive activities, he performs various actions which cause him to be subjected to repeated birth and death. If, therefore, the living entity again associates with the path of unrighteousness, influenced by sensually minded people engaged in the pursuit of sexual enjoyment and the gratification of the palate, he again goes to hell as before. He becomes devoid of truthfulness, cleanliness, mercy, gravity, spiritual intelligence, shyness, austerity, fame, forgiveness, control of the mind, control of the senses, fortune and all such opportunities. [sB 3.31.29-33] A living entity who, as a result of attachment to a woman in his previous life, has been endowed with the form of a woman, foolishly looks upon maya in the form of a man, her husband, as the bestower of wealth, progeny, house and other material assets. [sB 3.31.41] Due to his particular type of body, the materialistic living entity wanders from one planet to another, following fruitive activities. In this way, he involves himself in fruitive activities and enjoys the result incessantly. [sB 3.31.43] A point on humility among us: You speak of pure devotee, that he is saktyavesa avatara, that we should obey him only--these things are the wrong idea. If anyone thinks like that, that a pure devotee should be obeyed and no one else, that means he is a nonsense. We advise everyone to address one another as Prabhu. [Letter 14/12/72] [even though this comment was made to a Prabhupada disciple about Prabhupada's disciples - it is still a very good point for each of us today] I am present in every living entity as the Supersoul. If someone neglects or disregards that Supersoul everywhere and engages himself in the worship of the Deity in the temple, that is simply imitation. [sB 3.29.21] Just like we prescribe to our students no illicit sex-life, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling, but they are not ends in themselves. The real end is how to serve Krishna and sacrifice everything for Him. [Letter 2/11/69] Yer servant, BDM

when we reach the goal we'll realize that the hard work of crossing this vast ocean of material existence was golden, the journey is the reward Yes that is true - we may tend to forget that at times - I do try to reflect on that now and again - that it is this 'becoming real again' process - which is a special mellow in and of itself. Service is it's own reward. I was wondering about your picture - what is going on in that picture? Are they rowing a boat? YS, BDM

Hari Bolo! Hey nice picture - I love the cargo in the cart - did you make this? It's very good conceptually - we're quite the beast of burden hankering after that which isn't real and even that - is just out of reach... YS, BDM

Mind is the center of all the activities of the senses, and thus the mind is the reservoir of all ideas of sense gratification; and, as a result, the mind and the senses become the repositories of lust. Next, the intelligence department becomes the capital of such lustful propensities. Intelligence is the immediate next-door neighbor of the spirit soul. Lusty intelligence influences the spirit soul to acquire the false ego and identify itself with matter, and thus with the mind and senses. The spirit soul becomes addicted to enjoying the material senses and mistakes this as true happiness. [bG 3.40, purport] Don't you just love it?! Materialistic life means that one is afflicted by a formidable disease called lusty desire. Liberation means freedom from lusty desires because it is only due to such desires that one must accept repeated birth and death. As long as one’s lusty desires are unfulfilled, one must take birth after birth to fulfill them. Because of material desires, therefore, one performs various types of activities and receives various types of bodies with which to try to fulfill desires that are never satisfied. [sB 7.10.8, purport] My Lord, You are the supreme well-wishing friend of everyone, the dearmost friend, the controller, the Supersoul, the supreme instructor and the giver of supreme knowledge and the fulfillment of all desires. But although You are within the heart, the foolish, because of lusty desires in the heart, cannot understand You. [sB 8.24.52] “‘O my Lord, there is no limit to the unwanted orders of lusty desires. Although I have rendered these desires so much service, they have not shown any mercy to me. I have not been ashamed to serve them, nor have I even desired to give them up. O my Lord, O head of the Yadu dynasty, recently, however, my intelligence has been awakened, and now I am giving them up. Due to transcendental intelligence, I now refuse to obey the unwanted orders of these desires, and I now come to You to surrender myself at Your fearless lotus feet. Kindly engage me in Your personal service and save me.’ [CC Madhya 22.16] Even if he be distressed or degraded, any person who chants the holy name of the Lord, having heard it from a bona fide spiritual master, is immediately purified. Even if he chants the Lord’s name jokingly or by chance, he and anyone who hears him are freed from all sins. Therefore how can anyone seeking disentanglement from the material clutches avoid chanting the name of Lord Sesa? Of whom else should one take shelter? [sB 5.25.11] Who can deny the truth? One day everyone is going to give-up on lust and - turn again to God.... BDM

...nice parable... ys,

As a last side note: ...development of conjugal love for Krsna is not manifested in women only. The material body has nothing to do with spiritual loving affairs. A woman may develop an attitude for becoming a friend of Krsna, and, similarly, a man may develop the feature of becoming a gopi in Vrndavana. How a devotee in the form of a man can desire to become a gopi is stated in the Padma Purana as follows: In days gone by there were many sages in Dandakaranya. Dandakaranya is the name of the forest where Lord Ramacandra lived after being banished by His father for fourteen years. At that time there were many advanced sages who were captivated by the beauty of Lord Ramacandra and who desired to become women in order to embrace the Lord. Later on, these sages appeared in Goloka Vrndavana when Krsna advented Himself there, and they were born as gopis, or girl friends of Krsna. In this way they attained the perfection of spiritual life. The story of the sages of Dandakaranya can be explained as follows. When Lord Ramacandra was residing in Dandakaranya, the sages who were engaged in devotional service there became attracted by His beauty and immediately thought of the gopis at Vrndavana, who enjoyed conjugal loving affection with Krsna. In this instance it is clear that the sages of Dandakaranya desired conjugal love in the manner of the gopis, although they were well aware of the Supreme Lord as both Krsna and Lord Ramacandra. They knew that although Ramacandra was an ideal king and could not accept more than one wife, Lord Krsna, being the full-fledged Personality of Godhead, could fulfill the desires of all of them in Vrndavana. These sages also concluded that the form of Lord Krsna is more attractive than that of Lord Ramacandra, and so they prayed to become gopis in their future lives to be associated with Krsna. Lord Ramacandra remained silent, and His silence shows that He accepted the prayers of the sages. Thus they were blessed by Lord Ramacandra to have association with Lord Krsna in their future lives. As a result of this benediction, they all took birth as women in the wombs of gopis at Gokula... [The Nectar of Devotion, Ch. 16] So that would appear to be an interesting narration. I think that it speaks for itself on these issues - however - this 'mood' does have its perverted expression in those 'men' who dress as 'gopis' and call themselves such. These are a version of 'drag queens' - and from what I've read - they may beset a wedding for instance and - to make them go away - they must be given alms - or they'll make a further disturbance - in one way or another. Obviously - these expressions are not what is being referred to here in this narration. But it does go to show an important point. So for all those macho-men who are so proud of their own man-body - beware - you too may become more attracted to Krishna and His Form - than you think! We can see another interesting narration in Srimad Bhagavatam Canto Nine chapter one. In this chapter we see the narration of King Sudyumna - who was born as a girl - then transformed into a boy - then the boy grows into a man and - he later with his ministers - becomes a woman - by the entering of a certain forest. We are told that it was - "by the grace of Lord Siva, Sudyumna received the benediction that he would live one month as a woman and one month as a man" - there of course was a special purpose behind this. So as we can see from these two examples - this issue is broader than one might think. I should mention that the point often advanced against gay people from the Bhagavatam is the narration where Brahma produced some sons and they went after after him to molest him and he had to take shelter of Lord Vishnu for protection. What we are being warned of here is incest and molestation - clearly that is the issue. Of course such activities are demonic for anyone who thus engages in them. Of course all through Prabhupada's Vani we read examples of this and that and it is important to see the over-all reality of the message. We must see that Prabhupada is as terse with so-called straight people about sex - as he is with gay people - when it involves the cracking of their false ego's - where it involves setting-out the same standards - for all to measure-up to to get out of this place... I like this letter he wrote to "name withheld" on December 17, 1972: Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated November 30th, 1972, wherein I am so shocked to hear from you that you have left your good wife for some time to have sex-life with another girl, who is also a devotee, and that she is now pregnant with your child. That is most disturbing to me. But I know that all big leaders are falling victim to sex-life. So let her live in New York and you live in Paris with your wife, what can be done? But you should not ever see or correspond in any way with her again. That will be the worst example. If you are leader, how you can do these things? If someone will have her, she may get herself married and be happy in Krsna consciousness--I do not want that she shall go away from shame. But you must have nothing more to do with her. Just like [another devotee] has done. He was like the sifter, full of holes, and he was finding fault only in others: Oh, just see that needle, he has got a hole. Now he has made one girl pregnant and they were found out, so he has left me as my personal servant. That is the common practice: full of holes, yet they are accusing others, "Oh! He has got one hole! Our business is to raise ourselves to the highest status of life as preachers of Krsna's message, and one should behave himself rigidly, then he should instruct others. Two things: Be himself exemplary, then teach others to be exemplary. If one has not come to that high standard, he cannot judge or criticize others. There is one saying from Bible: 'Judge not, lest ye be judged.' So how we can preach unless we are able to make judgements? That will not be possible. Only those who are above suspicion can judge others. One must himself act in such a way that he is always above suspicion. Then he can judge, then he can preach. But now you have no power to instruct. One who is not following himself, how he can instruct others? If you are repentant, that's all right. You have got your wife, so if you are sexually inclined therefore you should always be with your wife. You are repenting, so Krsna will excuse you. But never do this again. Rather you should stop sex-life altogether, make this your austerity. Do not eat nicely, chant always sixteen rounds, and pray to Krsna to excuse you for your great offense. You are one of the senior devotees, therefore if you behave like that then the whole Society will be at risk. By their nature, gestures, dress, women are lusty--that is their habit. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that when a woman comes to serve you, you must be very careful, especially for sannyasis and brahmacaries." ACBS We should also think that for a woman it's the same - there is one nice story I once read - about an ashram - that was being visited by one nice woman - who was seeking enlightenment - so in any case - when she came to the ashram the men who were living there complained to their leader - the head of the hermitage - that she was serving as a distraction for them - that she was agitating their senses - they wanted her to go away. So their leader told them that they aught not be so petty as there was only one woman to distract them - but there were all these men - to distract the one woman! If she could tolerate that and try to control her mind - why couldn't they? So let's not forget that we may all be a source of bondage for each other or we can be a source of liberation. There is this nice verse within the Bible in this regard - about being good association for one another: It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. [Romans 14.21] We must not do anything as a bad example? BDM

I too agree...

[HERE IS WHY EDITING IS NONSENSE - LAST TIME I POST THIS IT IS WHAT IT IS NO FORMATTING] The question of ‘sexuality’ is one that is to be asked by almost every soul in the human form of life – no matter their particular so-called orientation. We have to ask ourselves - what is the basis of this contentious issue and - how does it really relate to our actual existence. Indeed - it has been mentioned in this discussion that one’s sexuality is ‘a state of being’. That is true. The Lord says: Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. [bG 8.6] So of course - in terms of samsara or rebirth - there is a dichotomy for the soul created through their identification of their ‘identity’ - with sexuality – again - this is true - no matter the so-called orientation. There should be a mention here in this posting that it is natural and 'normal' for some souls to appear homosexual and some to appear heterosexual - within this material nature - this is as a result of many karmic factors but - it isn't a perversion that one is gay. That said - there are aberrations in expression within both of these orientations. Some asuric individuals - of both groups - choose to violate the hearts minds and bodies of others - [it starts with their contemplating of these sins within their minds] - to so-called express or otherwise gratify their aberrant sexual urges and they are of course - demons - whose activities aught to be fully checked. It is especially a violation for adult people to engage in sex of any kind - subtle or otherwise - with adolescent individuals - individuals under the age of 19! These offenders should especially be made an example of in severe reprisals from the State. Today's courts however are not serious enough about this issue yet. I'm here not in any way discussing so-called adolescent sexuality - that is something - generally - which I think adults shouldn't even talk about. Since age is an important part of the issue - in my opinion - if one is say already 45 years old - they have no business having sex with 19-30 year old people. That manner of generation mixing - is so much maya - that older people shall have such connections - with much younger people - is a severely conditioning practice! It cultivates a deeper bodily attachment within ones mind - for ones past younger body and - it thus makes for a greater mental suffering for such people - in being forced to see that a 25 year old body - is no longer their's. This scenario becomes compounded as we age. Thus for their own good - people should - through life - thus act - within their own generation - in these matters. More could be said about this... The thus 'normal' homosexual and heterosexual individuals have to at some point understand that we are not these bodies and related designations: My dear King and hero, whatever you have spoken sarcastically is certainly true. Actually these are not simply words of chastisement, for the body is the carrier. The load carried by the body does not belong to me, for I am the spirit soul. There is no contradiction in your statements because I am different from the body. I am not the carrier of the palanquin; the body is the carrier. Certainly, as you have hinted, I have not labored carrying the palanquin, for I am detached from the body. You have said that I am not stout and strong, and these words are befitting a person who does not know the distinction between the body and the soul. The body may be fat or thin, but no learned man would say such things of the spirit soul. As far as the spirit soul is concerned, I am neither fat nor skinny; therefore you are correct when you say that I am not very stout. Also, if the object of this journey and the path leading there were mine, there would be many troubles for me, but because they relate not to me but to my body, there is no trouble at all. [sB 5.10.9] Now we have designated ourselves on the basis of our bodily relationships. We think, “I am an American,” “I am an Indian,” “I am a brahmana,” “I am black,” “I am white,” “I am strong,” “I am weak,” “I am fat,” “I am thin.” These are all bodily designations. When one becomes free of these designations and thinks, “I am an eternal servant of Krsna,” one possesses real jnana, or knowledge. [DWT, 7] There are scores of quotes that confirm like that – that we are spirit souls – we choose to identify with the body or – we choose to identify with our real identity as soul – as such – when we quit the present body – our subtle mind will have been creating our next body based on our desires and our merit as moved by our particular identifications – body or soul. When we are in knowledge we see this: We are after designations. Someone wants to become a son, someone wants to become Lord, someone wants to become the president or a rich man or a king or something else. As long as we are attached to these designations, we are attached to the body because designations belong to the body. But we are not these bodies, and realizing this is the first stage in spiritual realization. We are associated with the three modes of material nature, but we must become detached through devotional service to the Lord. If we are not attached to devotional service to the Lord, then we cannot become detached from the modes of material nature. Designations and attachments are due to our lust and desire, our wanting to lord it over the material nature. As long as we do not give up this propensity of lording it over material nature, there is no possibility of returning to the kingdom of the Supreme… [bG, Introduction] The activities of the body, or the figurative city of body, are conducted automatically by the particular modes of nature. The soul, although subjecting himself to the conditions of the body, can be beyond those conditions, if he so desires. Owing only to forgetfulness of his superior nature, he identifies with the material body, and therefore suffers. [bG 5.13, Purport] This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature. How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. [bG 13.22, Purport] So it really is an adjustment to our thinking. What is it that causes the most attachment to the body and bodily identification? The highest benefit that can be awarded to a human being is to train him to be detached from sex life, particularly because it is only due to sex indulgence that the conditioned life of material existence continues birth after birth. Human civilization in which there is no control of sex life is a fourth-class civilization because in such an atmosphere there is no liberation of the soul encaged in the material body. Birth, death, old age and disease are related to the material body, and they have nothing to do with the spirit soul. But as long as the bodily attachment for sensual enjoyment is encouraged, the individual spirit soul is forced to continue the repetition of birth and death on account of the material body, which is compared to garments subjected to the law of deterioration. [sB 2.6.20, Purport] We can see a very revealing instruction within the narration of Mohini-incarnation and Lord Siva: While Lord Siva observed the beautiful woman playing with the ball, She sometimes glanced at him and slightly smiled in bashfulness. As he looked at the beautiful woman and She watched him, he forgot both himself and Uma, his most beautiful wife, as well as his associates nearby. [sB 8.12.22] His senses being agitated, Lord Siva, victimized by lusty desires, began to follow Her, just as a lusty elephant follows a she-elephant. [sB 8.12.27] Just as a maddened bull elephant follows a female elephant who is able to conceive pregnancy, Lord Siva followed the beautiful woman and discharged semen, even though his discharge of semen never goes in vain. [sB 8.12.32] O Maharaja Pariksit, best of kings, when Lord Siva had fully discharged semen, he could see how he himself had been victimized by the illusion created by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thus he restrained himself from any further maya. [sB 8.12.35] In the Purport to this verse Srila Prabhupada says: Once one is agitated by lusty desires upon seeing a woman, those desires increase more and more, but when semen is discharged in the act of sex, the lusty desires diminish. The same principle acted upon Lord Siva. He was allured by the beautiful woman Mohini-murti, but when his semen had been fully discharged, he came to his senses and realized how he had been victimized as soon as he saw the woman in the forest…. So we are given this episode from Lord Vishnu and Lord Siva – so that we might [in part] understand that as soon as we become ‘infected’ by desire we’ll chase after it - unless we train ourselves not to. Somehow or other one must be enlightened about his past, present and future. One who is interested only in his present body and who tries to enjoy his senses to the fullest extent is understood to be engrossed in the mode of ignorance. His future is very, very dark. Indeed, the future is always dark for one who is grossly covered by ignorance. Especially in this age, human society is covered by the mode of ignorance, and therefore everyone thinks his present body to be everything, without consideration of the past or future. [sB 6.1.49, Purport] One tries to enjoy the five sense objects, namely form, sound, taste, aroma and touch, not knowing the actual goal of life, which is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Because of disobeying the Supreme Lord, one is put into material conditions, and he then tries to improve his situation in a concocted way, not desiring to follow the instructions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. [sB 6.1.50, Purport] One who is able to withdraw his senses from sense objects, as the tortoise draws his limbs within the shell, is to be understood as truly situated in knowledge. [bG 2.58] While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises. [bG 2.62] We have to consider that mere abstinences are not real renunciations: One who restrains the senses and organs of action, but whose mind dwells on sense objects, certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender. [bG 3.6] We have to really transfer our primary attachment and - that is where this sex-life issue becomes the make or break point for an aspiring transcendentalist. The enjoyment of the objects of the senses actually reposes within and culminates with - the sex act – of the senses it’s the sense of touch that is ‘wired’ to this attachment - touch being the most engaging of the senses. We know from Gita that the mind and the senses are the sitting places of lust – in fact lust corrupts our intelligence - by keeping the mind engaged with so many sense objects and these interactions with the senses and the sense objects are the basic foundation for our attachments. We also learn for Gita that everything around us is covered by the modes of nature or the qualities of nature – goodness passion and ignorance – thus as we keep our senses engaged with objects and activities they are covered by any combination of these particular modes. We know that we have to come to the mode of goodness - to be able to at last transcend these modes altogether. If we choose to think that our passion-based sexuality is a part of our real identity - that is a great obstacle – no matter the so-called orientation concerned. When we accept that we are the body we tend to accept that sexuality is a part of our identity – this affects everything we think feel and do. Once we can begin to see this misidentification - the question of control derives first - in responding to or not responding to - our urges. Without doubt as any activity is covered by the qualities of nature and as are individuals and objects - to engage in sex with - is to create karma with that individual – it’s a fact. There is a subtle contamination that results from such interactions when they are merely sense gratification [not to produce children]. Lord Krishna says: A person who is not disturbed by the incessant flow of desires—that enter like rivers into the ocean which is ever being filled but is always still—can alone achieve peace, and not the man who strives to satisfy such desires. [bG 2.70] Without a doubt - in my own past I’ve realized how contaminating - to the mind and heart - it is to actually have sex! Now for each of us such realizations are timed differently and - yes we all may not be able to be fully celibate – of course - in the question of celibacy there enters the question of degrees – so it is generally taken to mean that a celibate individual refrains from sexual activity with all other individuals – in the ultimate sense - it also includes all artificial gratification – but - where time and circumstances are concerned - there may be the question of the latter being the lesser of two evils. So in this thread the question is about the relevant spiritual questions regarding the disputed propriety of gay relationships – including monogamous ones. Just like any ‘straight’ relationship – within which there is sense gratification in the form of sex – ALL these types of relationships are based in illusion – really they are. If in such a relationship - one cannot legitimately have sex then - what is the point of that relationship? It’s better for the needs of companionship - to have good friends and - to not worry about playing house with someone. If people choose to live this way [gay monogamous relationships] – that is their business and - we as devotees tend to respect people’s rights and seeming prudence in this connection – we do support their monogamous prudence – but not in practical convention - through changing the whole of the philosophical reality to suit it. We are not going to see a time when same sex marriage arrangements are spiritually acceptable – it simply isn’t needed. I don’t think that it’s good - even from the materialistic social perspective. As an example - I note that recently here in Canada the Supreme Court decided on a precedent case - dealing with ‘sex clubs’. On the whole - they decided that such sex clubs - were not in violation of the law and - that they should be permitted to operate [without restraints] – of course - what is the real impact of these sex clubs on individuals and society in general? I think that it is interesting that the same Court decided that marijuana should stay illegal – saying that there is ‘no standing constitutional right to posses and use it’ – thus they ignored everything about the facts of the issue including the real science behind the issue and - they chose to make a capricious decision – maybe it's because they don’t smoke grass and they don’t want to – thus it stays illegal.<o></o> However these sex clubs on the other hand – the justices decided what they did - because they themselves may one day like to ‘legitimately’ patronize such an establishment? I'm not trying to insult anyone - I'm just making a point. Myself - I see that all these sex clubs [many of which existed in larger cities prior to this case] are degrading and seedy environments - where the propensity for unsafe sex and the spread of disease are engendered. This new decision now seriously promotes a further degraded environment to spread everywhere. Like gambling VLT's - at first there were only a few here and there - now - there's tens of thousands of them - everywhere. It now makes it possible for married people to commit adultery - so much like 'going for a beer' and - it makes fornication for unmarried individuals that much easier too. Without a doubt this decision shall do much to erode family and societal morality. They cannot justify their capricious marijuana ruling but thanks to them - this sex club thing may soon be moving to a neighborhood near yours! How to control ones senses within such a society? So back to the point - if gay people choose to live together and make some commitment that is their business – but they cannot expect to change spiritual traditions - based on a growing societal propensity - for inclusions of same sex marriages. We cannot change these facts of scriptures - to suit our modern societal needs. Of course Prabhupada says: The sex demand is inevitable for everyone, but one who has a fixed wife is saved from the onslaught of the sense enemies. A man who possesses a good wife does not create a disturbance in society by corrupting virgin girls. Without a fixed wife, a man becomes a debauchee of the first order and is a nuisance in society… [sB 3.14.20, purport] So I would tend to apply that to the same sex people too – while telling them the rest of what is written here. Of course - I’m not beyond all these 'normal' sex issues too! I myself have not had sex - for over ten years and - I don’t feel I’m missing out on anything good. I have nothing to worry about - as far as disease unwanted pregnancy and relationships with their baggage – it is liberating. I have had the overwhelming sex-desire struggle in my own life – and I think there are degrees of renunciations and - we each find them as permitted by our own sincere desires - one way or the other. There was a time that I too embraced my sexuality - as though it were God created and natural – I dismissed [as outmoded morality] the parts of scriptures that made my illusory identity feel uncomfortable. However as the scriptures tell us – trying to satisfy our lusty identity only results in frustrations. So the choice then was to understand that either choice [to have or not to have sex] may make one uptight and frustrated – i.e.: ‘why cannot I find a good relationship and be happy’ - or - ‘let me tolerate this urge and let it pass then I shall see that that engagement is a perpetual downer’. As noted - the issues - the transcending of sexuality and - the attainment of full celibacy must [for some] also include the factor of personal artificial ‘satisfaction’ of ones sexual urges. We must never forget the understanding that we are to see these urges - for what they are and - not give in to them - as far as possible – now that may take time - depending on many factors but – in such a scenario – better that one makes an end to these urges oneself - without involving any others? Of course that too is contaminating and - not conducive to our liberation from the noted bondage to bodily consciousness – but doing away with the urge that way may stave off the propensity to fornicate long enough - to realize these things in proper perspective. Too often in trying to satisfy ones urges - one goes into the worst of associations and one spends time and money – one really spends too much - over-endeavoring for one moment of so-called bliss – it’s hardly worth the chase. I do not want anyone to think that I’m endorsing a certain practice but - the alternate behaviors - as discussed in this thread - are more contaminating and are thus more acutely going to check ones spiritual progress. As we go through the day what are we thinking about? Krishna? The soul? The body? What? It is up to us to program our minds to not engage the senses with this sex desire - at every appearance of the urge to do so. If we want to try to be happy here in our delusional sexual reality - we can forget all about this and - the delusion and suffering never ends… If we are serious about serving God and becoming pure enough to be liberated – then we shall accept what scriptures tell us about these things. If we are having sex with 'other individuals' - we are going to be more attached to those 'others' [mostly the bodies of] than we are to God. It's a very subtle point - but in that regard - so too are its inevitable results - complete forgetfullness of our primary connection - our connection to God. In our original uncontaminated nature we are existing for His satisfaction. He is the Enjoyer and the souls are the enjoyed. By nature - God is the Energetic Supreme Masculine and - we souls are all the inferior feminine energy. In the basic understanding - when we wish to have sex we - the enjoyed - wish to imitate God as - the Enjoyer. We also must know that these urges are connected to a bodily function. This bodily function is connected to procreation - if the truth is told - in a God-centered marriage relationship - the focus isn't on the bodily function of procreation - it's supposed to be an association meant to regulate our senses. By nature's design the natural consequence of sex is the formation of new bodies - children. If we produce children it is a great deal of material and spiritual responsibility - this result is intended to curb the unrestricted indulgence of sex in a marriage relationship. Of course - humans have sought out many calculations to check this natural result - i.e.: birth control and abortion. Physical nature is known to be endlessly mutable. Thus when we calculate in this way - so also does material nature - thus we can see the increase of sexual diseases [physical and otherwise] as a 'natural consequence' of sex - instead of the begetting of children. That said - we have to see that the base matter is the same for all of us - man or woman and even irrespective of gay or straight - the matter is the same - we are eternal souls - that are not any of these designations - that the choice to build so much around this bodily function - is so much illusion. Forgive this very simple crude example - we can look at it like this – sex like urination - is a bodily function – do we ‘build a life’ around that bodily function? No. Heterosexuality is not looked upon as an aberration – and yet - it is an aberration - for the eternal unchanging soul - as the soul is neither straight nor gay! We must consider too that for one who has heterosexual urges – the subtle sexual identity illusion may be even harder to overcome - as one [and society in general] doesn’t see sexual urges in general and heterosexual urges in particular as unnatural – where for one who has no attraction for the opposite sex [and thus no desire to produce children] - it may become easier to see this over-all unnatural point about sex – if they can see the homosexual urge as unnatural - as the last 'normal' snare of maya - as another calculation - where sex life is concerned. We tend to ignore that maya is working on us – presenting our minds - with anything [psychological and emotional] that we might accept – to just accept our illusory identity of body and just forget God and who we really are – and as far as sex goes - that’s the greatest allurement there is. As for Vedic literatures and sexuality – you’ll find what I’ve said here is quite the logical. It’s not that homosexuality is a sin and that God hates anyone who is thus orientated – it’s much broader than that – sex is all about a world of phantasmagorias and our particular designations and dispositions in interacting within this world. God hates our sins - only because they make us forget Him - sex for sense gratification - is sex - straight or gay. Unless one uses sex as perscribed - to beget children - there shall be all sorts of psycological emotional and physical results and sufferings connected to it. When we give these things a serious thought we must see them outside our attachments to them. As the Lord says - we need a balance: He who does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present, nor longs for them when they disappear; who is seated like one unconcerned, being situated beyond these material reactions of the modes of nature, who remains firm, knowing that the modes alone are active... [bG 14.22-25] For those molding their lives to please God - it is natural that one might want to reduce these attachments - and thus check the ill results to this issue as far as possible. For one who worships Me, giving up all his activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, who has fixed his mind upon Me, O son of Prtha, for him I am the swift deliverer… [bG 12.6-7] If one wishes to remain within bodily consciousness then they are not even going to have read all this posting? [hint hint] So as this is sounding like a long [bad] lecture now I think its time to sign off this posting…. BDM

Reposted

Hari Bolo! Please Please Please - do post these treasures - without doubt they shall be very popular with most of us! Oh please do it soon - I cannot wait! YS, BDM

So I just wanted to mention that the human rights commissioner issued her 'final' letter - wherein she formally took away our rights - on an interesting day. This letter was dated October 24, 2003 - it was Dipvali - the letter came in the mail on the following Tuesday - October 28, 2003 - the disappearance day of Srila Prabhupada! Was that intended? With the WWW she [they] could have easily known that those dates were important to us. In any case - it was an interesting kali yuga slap. "We don't cover Krishna here!" - yes - that is obvious! However - they shall - 'cover Krishna here'! We happened to be blessed that day too - we bought a silver [our first] Rhada-Krishna [13 centimeters in size] on Dipvali October 24, 2003 and we brought them home - on October 24, 2003! Yup we welcomed their Lordships into our home - the same day the commissioner wrote her irregular letter - to deny us our religious rights - "We don't cover Krishna here!" - we heard that from intake - in July 2002 and - it took till October 2003 for them to 'finish us off'... BDM

There could be some truth to the story of archangel Lucifer when he depressed and poutful left the eternal kingdom of God. In the Garden of Eden there was Adam and Eve and by Lucifer's influence Cain took birth from Eve, actually Lucifer's son. With the descendants of Cain, the demons became established on planet earth Hari Bolo! Dear Suchandra: You don't still think there was a literal Lucifer/Satan? We have seen a great deal of evidence which clearly shows this character as a fictional being. He is not even interpreted as a literal reality by Rabbi's - of course we've been over this point - that this myth is Persian in origin. Of course as allegory it has a wealth of meaning - but if taken in the literal sense - it becomes maya. Part of the issue is that we must see that in fact God has no rival. That means that there isn't some 'spirit' opposite to Him - especially in terms of some fallen angel. Sure many 'spirits' oppose God - but they are not operating as rivals - they're just illusioned. We can see from Vedic narrations that some souls - like Hiranyakasipu can oppose God and become very powerfull - he became so powerfull that he forced everyone to worship him - [except Siva and Brahma and of course Vishnu] - imagine such a demon today! If there were such a demon today people would call him satan and antichrist - no doubt about it. We can see that in his case and - in the case of all the 'spirits' that oppose God and torment other living entities - such rebel souls are checked by God [either directly or indirectly] at some point. So let's know that there is NO satan and NO lucifer - but there is a personality of kali and 'it' comes closer to our understanding of a satan. Let's try to understand the real personality of kali instead of this fictional satan. YS, BDM

It is so foolish that people cannot see why the editing must stop. Let's take this very 'crude result' example - would it cause issues for devotees if we refuse to accept these changes? What if some of us say 'no i want the books as they are' - is that going to put us on the outs with the BBT and ISKCON leadership? Sound like seeds of factioning? This issue is moot - for ISKCON to be fighting like this - nearly three decades after Srila Prabhupada published these books is a very bad omen! So it's time that people think. It's time that we understand the power-play at work in this. It's time that we see that these stewards of his books are - to [in part] serve the interests of outsiders - no longer serving Prabhupada's interests - in the stewardship of his writings. This is not about offense - just because we're critical of these things - that doesn't mean that we're aparhadis - as that is what we're called - I'm sure. [oh yes - there is a history of this kind of reaction to critical questions] Is the BBT even interested in seeing that this issue doesn't further divide ISKCON - do they even care? When i look back over the short history of ISKCON - it is so obvious why there is such a hole in everything. ISKCON should've been much more within this world - by 2006. For example - here in Saskatchewan we've had to file a complaint at the human rights commission - in 2002 - and what did they tell us [?] - "We don't cover Krishna here!" That's true - they did say that when they denied my god-brother and myself our rights! [incidentally - a similar ill marginal treatment was imposed on my god-brother - in 1996 in Alberta - at the human rights commission as well - (another time). So let's just see 'why' a human rights commission - in a western nation - could act like this!? We're still at odds with them over this issue and - we shall continue seeing this through right too it's proper conclusion. So why did they say what they did? Could a very small part of it be that after all these years there is still a wide-perception that ISKCON is a cult? Has the 'PR department' within ISKCON failed? Whose fault is that? Why doesn't the world know more about Krishna and know more about His Vedic culture - without all the noted 'issues' about the cult-perception of ISKCON - within the eyes of the world in general? Of course ISKCON is NOT a cult - but - there are [and have been] some individuals within ISKCON [including leadership] that have brought 'that mood' into our midst. So we'll not ever help the world - all these years later - if we cannot - in the least - stop this nonsense re-writing of Srila Prabhupada's books.... BDM

One last thought on this issue: Reporter (1): Swamiji, you write originally in English or these books are being translated from some other language into English... Prabhupada: No, translated, but I give my purport. That is.... They like very much. Present the purport in such a way they can understand it. The original verse is there, but they are explained by me.<o></o> Reporter (6): Does it ever happen, Swamiji, that some disciples of yours may disagree with you in spiritual matters? Pusta Krsna: No. Prabhupada: Unless he is a fool. (laughter) Unless he’s damn fool, they do not. (laughter) If he’s sane and sober, open-hearted, then he will agree. [03/25/76] YS, BDM

Here are a few more nice quotes: There are many editions of the Bhagavad-gita, and most of them have been edited to push forward the editor’s own philosophical views. [TQE, Ch. 4, Putting Krishna in the Center and BG 7.1-3 Lecture, 08/10/73 ] You have to understand our philosophy perfectly, follow the regulative principles, and then in fact you can edit our books and papers. [Letter, 22/10/71] Let us see Srila Prabhupada's personal mood on this translating: It is to be admitted that whatever translation work I have done is through the inspiration of my spiritual master, because personally I am most insignificant and incompetent to do this materially impossible work. I do not think myself a very learned scholar, but I have full faith in the service of my spiritual master, His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. If there is any credit to my activities of translating, it is all due to His Divine Grace. Certainly if His Divine Grace were physically present at this time, it would have been a great occasion for jubilation, but even though he is not physically present, I am confident that he is very much pleased by this work of translation. He was very fond of seeing many books published to spread the Krsna consciousness movement. Therefore our society, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, has been formed to execute the order of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. It is my wish that devotees of Lord Caitanya all over the world enjoy this translation, and I am glad to express my gratitude to the learned men in the Western countries who are so pleased with my work that they are ordering in advance all my books that will be published in the future. On this occasion, therefore, I request my disciples who are determined to help me in this work to continue their cooperation fully, so that philosophers, scholars, religionists and people in general all over the world will benefit by reading our transcendental literatures, such as Srimad-Bhagavatam and Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. [CC Antya, 20, Concluding Words] Not that I'm saying that Jayadvaita is outside of Srila Prabhupada - I just think that his mood is not advancing in the same direction as it once did. As we can see - Srila Prabhupada was speaking of an as of yet incomplete task of presenting the Vedic literatures - now that task is complete. It would seem that the already complete books have been edited to push forward the editor’s own philosophical views. He remains with me and he helps me in editing the Sanskrit portion of my books. [Lecture, 10/16/72] So I will surmise that he wasn't letting them edit his purports? Of course I shall not give up on ISKCON - as Srila Prabhupada has said: Prabhupada: Yes. Not dualism. How many isms, nobody knows. But... What is called? Faction. Faction. Everyone is divided from the other. Madhudvisa: Yeah. Prabhupada: So we should not bring that attitude in our society. That is my request. [Conversation 03/10/76] Prabhupada: If you create faction amongst yourselves, then what will come? Problems. Why? [Conversation 06/30/77] So we'll all work together as far as possible and we shall not let Prabhupada's ISKCON faction out-of-exisitence. Amongst ourselves one should respect others as Prabhu, master, one another. As soon as we distinguish here is a pure devotee, here is a non-pure devotee, that means I am a nonsense. [Letter, 12/14/72] ...Lord Siva, however, not only finds no faults with others’ qualities, but if someone has a little good quality, he magnifies it greatly.... [sB 4.4.12] Every endeavor is covered by some sort of fault, just as fire is covered by smoke. Therefore one should not give up the work which is born of his nature, O son of Kunti, even if such work is full of fault. [bG 18.48] YS, BDM

"This realization is made possible by working with the fruitive being situated in the fixed conception of the real self.." [bG 2.1, purport] For sake of discussion - here is the point made in that purport just previous to the noted quote: This chapter instructs us in self-realization by an analytical study of the material body and the spirit soul I've noticed that my krishna.org vedabase has no comma at all after the word "fruitive"... Who cannot understand it anyway - the point is not about a 'fruitive being' - really - comma or no comma - neither is needed to see that. It's 'by working with the fruitive' - and - 'being situated in' - that is quite obvious. Makes sense to me. The point to understand this - might be reflected in BG 4.9: One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna. So what is that? the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities Take that contrasted to: realization is made possible by working with the fruitive being situated in the fixed conception of the real self This contrast goes to the heart of understanding this point in BG 14.22: knowing that the modes alone are active This is further explained in BG 13.30: One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created of material nature, and sees that the self does nothing, actually sees. So as we work with our fruitive activities and - while being fixed in the conception of the real self knowing that the modes alone are active - we can see the transcendental nature of our own appearance and activities - to at last - see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created of material nature, and to see that the self does nothing - at least not until the soul engages in transcendental activities. BDM

Hari Bolo! I humbly submit that I intend no offense in this posting as being critical isn't in the least the point here - this is just my humble observations on this matter. We have the BBT Vedabase [from them] and we also have one we got from Krishna.org - the second one is supposed to be original - and it is in many places - but - it has some of the edits - like that noted in C.C. Madhya 19.157 - this is very unfortunate. So when i quote Srila Prabhupada - I may still be quoting Jayadvaita - oh why doesn't he see what he's doing! Of course it's exactly as Jndas has noted - the changes are [in part] to engender more authority for the leaders of ISKCON - in many cases - this may be a subtle thing - but - it is a valid point. Also - I think that this may show that Jayadvaita is somewhat living within the past? These materials have been widely published - for over 30 years - yes the devotees helped to edit these Books - in their original composition - one could say that these books are as much a part of those early devotees and that time - as they are a part of Srila Prabhupada and the represented Parampara. Jayadvaita is thus trying to repose himself within the past in this manner? In the real world one doesn't re-write books etc., - after they have been printed again and again - like Bhagavatam - it was in it's eighth printing in 1978 - so - by the 1990's - when it was being revised for it's continued printing - it was already circulating in so many other printings. What if one were to take some other Books - by famous authors - books written long ago and - one were to do some of this type of editing - telling the world that these changes are closer to how it should be? Would the academic community accept these new books? No! So here we have Jayadvaita trying to so-called appease the 'current' academic community in his changing the grammatic renderings of "He" to "he" - yet - Jayadvaita must be a kind of laughing stock [sorry to say!] among the academic community - for all these 'other' thousands of revisions - obvious revisions - not corrective edits. So since Srila Prabhupada's original books are on the shelves of many of the Universities around the world and they are being used 'as is' now for decades - are they to be replaced? Which excuses shall they give these schools for such an exchange program? So BBT should consider that the changes they are endorsing are in the end going to undermine the existing respect that is held for Srila Prabupada's Books - a respect gained without any post-publication edits. My 'first book' was Bhagavad Gita 'As It Is' - 1972 version - the undiluted version - we also have the revised edition and - i just don't like the 'new' book - because that's what it is. There must be pressure on BBT to reverse all these changes - they MUST publish Srila Prabhupada's books etc., as they are - not as they want them to be. Here are some quotes which I'm sure they know [and i hope these too haven't been changed!]: ...If we send a telegram, the person who delivers the telegram does not have to correct it, edit it, or add to it. He simply presents it... [sSR ch. 2] ...Just like a bearer, peon. Somebody has written you letter, the peon has got the letter. It does not mean he has to correct it or edit it or addition or... No. He’ll present it. That is his duty. Then he is guru. He’s honest... [Lecture August 22, 1973] ...We have to edit in such a way, present our literature in such a way that it will be gospel truth.... [Conversation May 25, 1972] That is certainly a past tense instruction - this was in 1972 - when Srila Prabhupada was present and playing a direct part of the 'edit' process - as evidenced by his use of the word "we" - the other part of my point here is that most of these changes seem to be to his 'purports' and not his verse translations... So what we are now getting is Jayadvaita's purports to Srila Prabhupada's purports and - without any index of changes for us to look at - that's apparently what we've got now isn't it. What shall be the end result of all this? What differences of opinion shall exist in the community of devotees due to these changes - depending on the 'versions' of the books which each of us have? Jayadvaita and the BBT have thus seeded the community of devotees with so many possibilites for Vani schisms - wasn't that fact obvious to them when they decided to do all this revising? As if there wasn't enough 'divisions' in opinion within our community. I often hear that senior devotees do not feel a sense of respect from the second and third generation of devotees - is this due in part to the particular 'version of' Srila Prabhupada's Teachings each respective generation has learned from? Does this make any sense? Even in the proper academic world so-called post-publication editorial revisions are in general added as foot-notes within later printings - so what happened here? That method however - may have been acceptable in theory - but - with the number of and - the nature of these revisions - such foot-notes would appear quite akward all throughout the books etc., - wouldn't they... So here in this exchange - there would appear to be some akward direction to them [in their minds] to edit the Teachings of Srila Prabhupada - I'm sure they've cited this point to critics: ...Pusta Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: Yes Pusta Krsna: After your meeting this morning with Gopala Krsna, he brought up this point that maybe it would be necessary to edit the books, because... Prabhupada: Hm? Pusta Krsna: It might be necessary to edit the books because in these countries when they start reading about God and how we say this government is rascal, rascal, this and that, that... Prabhupada: Yes. Pusta Krsna: Do you think it is necessary? Prabhupada: It will be necessary when there will be criticism.... [Morning Walk March 15, 1976] So in that regard they may say they are very busy trying to add to and take away from his books - all to cover this point. We can surmise though from this conversation that he wasn't advocating a replacement - only a time and circumstances revision. With all the 'originals' in circulation it's too late for that - add to this the internet and the dissemination of the Books online - more people than ever can see the Books and - the changes. The websites dealing with these changes aren't all that hard to locate. I would add - how many lectures has Jayadvaita given in the matter of context - in the matter of understanding the proper context of the various explications Srila Prabhupada has given the world on this point or that - for a simple example - in general - what Srila Prabhupada says within his written purports have more general application to 'one and all' - than the points presented within his letters. It's important that we ALL know this. It's also important to understand Srila Prabhupada's application of time and circucumstance measures and not to confuse instructions that are past tense with those that are omni-tense. So please BBT we pray thee - just deliver Prabhupada's message as a good peon... BDM

Quote: And, re. karma, if those responsible for abortion (industry, scientists dealing in fetal matter, aborters, men who insist on such things, those giving permission) cannot come out of wombs alive, then how are abortions ever stopped? Reply: Certianly it seems that there are an incredible number of implicated souls waiting for wombs - to be aborted - for their participations in abortions. To answer your question - we need to see how the 'turn the other cheek' teaching relates to this. We need to stop abortion - thus we check the need for further souls to have that karma placed on their accounts - we also thus deny such a rebirth reality - to the souls waiting for such a rebrith reality. Where would those souls go if there were no wombs for them to be aborted within here? There is without doubt some planet - lower than this - where such things do take place and - even here on earth - even if we stop abortion in the U.S. and Canada - that is a long way from ending the practice worldwide - as in - China and India. So it would seem that we could stop the practice here and there could still yet be wombs for those souls still responsible - wombs of great number too. I could see spill-over souls having no womb to enter - ending up in limbo until another kali yuga as well. Without doubt we need our leaders to stop this sick practice and in the U.S. and in Canada we have leaders that are interested in doing so. BDM

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Hari Bolo Mr. Cooper!<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>I have a good hunch and I usually see my hunches come to pass!<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Reading my postings here one might wonder how I could seemingly do an about face on these matters - however - if one reads my postings over-all one shall see that I encourage the good in everyone - at times however it's like sowing seeds onto stone - but at other times it isn't.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>So we have to pray and really understand the power of prayer - especially in connection to the chanting of the Holy Names - that prayer can have a significant effect on people and situations.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>In the matter of these circumstances we see at the end of the day certain people - who like to think that they are fighting for the greater good - we are seeing them murder innocent citizens - in this case within a Temple.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>They are not fighting for the greater good they and their cause have become a disturbance to the saner section of society and thus the saner section of society must take appropriate measures to check this activity.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>These fighters lose all claim to 'justice' when they engage in homicide bombings - this can only happen so many times and it becomes apparent that they are agents of kuli yuga.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Here is what Srila Prabhupada writes:<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>"This age of Kali [quarrel] will certainly be full of all activities of Kali [quarrel], but this does not mean that the leaders of society, the executive heads, the learned and intelligent men, or above all the devotees of the Lord should sit down tightly and become callous to the reactions of the age of Kali [quarrel]. In the rainy season certainly there will be profuse rainfalls, but that does not mean that men should not take means to protect themselves from the rains." [sB 1.17.28, purport] <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>What happens now is that Mr. Bush and his Team have to sort out the various ill issues they have created in their attempts to check the various activities of these irregular fighters or 'terrorists' - they have still yet another level to 'play' as it were in this fight - just like in a good video game - you just think a level is complete and - nope - there's more - so in that way - we may have to see more fighting and - Mr. Bush and his Team cannot be polarized on any issues - this must be so in order to really create and maintain a global resolve to check this kali yuga issue.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>But at the end of the day it's all up to God and God shall measure by way of our worthiness - today we see more and more godless people - not maybe godless in the sense of being evil - but godless in the sense if not accepting a supreme authority and resultant 'order of things' - godless people tend to live in a way that cultivates regression of good qualities - rather than progression toward them.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Our modern world is quite complicated due to this growing number of godless souls. Yesterday while I was watching Catholic Mass on TV the Priest said - "Atheists people who have no invisible means of support" and that is so true.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Some of these irregular fighters are also claiming to be people of faith but that is their delusion - they cannot be - due to their actions.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>All scriptures admonish people to act in ways quite opposite to what we see them acting like. They may wrench parts of a tradition out of context but they are not pleasing God by they killing. In the estimation of scriptures they are not soldiers - they are murderers.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>As for all the 'conspiracy' theories about Mr. Bush - as I noted - over the years there's been a great deal of false theories about me out there - and with some people who think that these are true - they'll choose think it - no matter what the real truth presented to them is.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Yes I was in the occult but that doesn't mean that I was into sacrifices and all that bunk. It doesn't mean that I embraced evil over good - it doesn't mean that I'm still use the occultist methods.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>In the same way Mr. Bush [and others] may have had connections to this or that - but what is the real truth.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>We can take the evangelical position for one - I now think that Mr. Bush has broadened his view of 'what is God' and - our 'various means' to reach out to Him - that He might reach back.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>I don't think that Mr. Bush was ever in the occult nor do I think that the Skull and Bones at Yale is an occultist group - they are a college fraternity which has over the years gained a reputation - due to ‘secret rituals’ that are really adolescent antics - in their initiations of members into their fraternity. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>I actually wanted Mr. Bush to win this last election - even though I was being critical of his Team. It's true. I also want the Republicans to win the next - in 2008 – one day - I’ll get around to explaining more.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>YS,<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>BDM

Well I like the upper case pronoun for Krishna - it defines that: 1. rules don't apply to Him and - 2. that He is above 'all others' - He is the Absolute in Everything - including grammar... I wish they would cease and desist from editing Prabhupada's Books - it just ain't right to do that!

The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin. [bG 3.13]

Here is a good string to discuss the example Srila Prabhupada gave us in the offering and distribution of food. I made this well known photo into a painting - something different for a kitchen photo: