Bhakta Don Muntean

What is this?

I have respect for the Krsna conscious philosophy which is not self indulgent like that. The thing I don't get about you Krishna Conscious conspiracy buffs is even if Bush is this great devil that you say he is, in Krsna Conscious philosophy I was under the understanding that not even a blade of grass moves without Krsna's sanction so none of these devils can actually destroy the world without Krsna's approval and support? Yes that is true... That some shall try to destroy the world - isn't God's desire - nor is it His arrangement - He preserves the world - often by checking demoniac leaders and their followers. If God seems to permit these terrorists to wreak havok isn't that like saying He is sanctioning it? No - God doesn't sanction these nasty things. Prabhupada gives the example of the state - the business of the state is to see to the good maintenance of the citizens - but - the state has to also build prision houses. Is it thus taken that the state wishes that people should go to the prison house? Of course not. In the same manner we should know that God oversees the reactions to our deeds - collective and individually and - He may appear to sanction various thugs and their mahem but - we must see things - from a broad perspective - we need to see His sanctions - as the Conductor of karma. We can see that God may permit bad things to happen and - it most certainly would be the most dangerous gambling to ignore dangers on the plea that they are God sanctioned reactions to karma. It is EVIL to think that God may permit one to do bad things to innocent people - on the plea that they are God sanctioned reactions to their karma/actions! How often do losers do some nasty thing and then say that their victims deserved it? We should understand that God wants us to become free of all karma especially bad karma. He wants us avert nasty reactions and to do this we at times have to confront ourselves and - at times we have to confront each other - in any case there is going to be confrontations in the metting out of reactive experiances it's all in how we react to these confrontations. Bad people will most certianly confront others - but never themselves. You have correct vision of this point. We have to see that God is in control - no matter what He is conducting in our reality. Here is what He says to Arjuna: The intricacies of action are very hard to understand. Therefore one should know properly what action is, what forbidden action is, and what inaction is. [bG 4.17] Though engaged in all kinds of activities, My devotee, under My protection, reaches the eternal and imperishable abode by My grace. [bG 18.56] Consider this point - how it relates to murderers and capital punishment. If the state doesn't hang a confirmed murderer then they are making it necessary for a murderer to be born to take the future life of that one not hanged. The state is not murdering a person with such an punishment. ...a man who has committed murder should be hanged and his own life sacrificed in atonement. Previously this system was followed all over the world, but since people are becoming atheists, they are stopping capital punishment. This is not wise. Herein it is said that a physician who knows how to diagnose a disease prescribes medicine accordingly. If the disease is very serious, the medicine must be strong. The weight of a murderer’s sin is very great, and therefore according to Manu-samhita a murderer must be killed. By killing a murderer the government shows mercy to him because if a murderer is not killed in this life, he will be killed and forced to suffer many times in future lives. Since people do not know about the next life and the intricate workings of nature, they manufacture their own laws, but they should properly consult the established injunctions of the Sastras and act accordingly. [sB 6.1.8, purport] YS, BDM

Quote: whoever feels threatened by them should deal with that threat and pay for it in their own money and their own blood. they are not a threat to US. Reply: But they are a threat to the U.S. - they are a threat to YOU. You mention Gunda [criminal] in your posting - and these terrorists are not criminals with big sticks - trying to enforce their 'conversion' plans on the world? They are a direct threat to so many - at what point do you decide that it is prudent to help do something [if even just to well wish your leaders in this struggle?] - to check their advancement? Do you wait till they are bearing directly down on you? That might be too late? I think that when these losers did what they did on 9/11 - there was no doubt of their intent to the U.S. and - the rest of the west. Quote: real kshatriya is a person of honor and justice. a person who simply carries a big sick is a gunda, being a kshatriya is primarily about administering JUSTICE and not about forcing people to submit to your whims. Reply: Honor and justice. Nice words in kali yuga. Indeed - the words have seemingly taken leave from the modern lexicon - but - to say that the Bush admin. has nothing in terms of these - for a motive - isn't fair. On the issue of forcing the submission of peoples - again - I would note that these Taliban freaks cannot be overlooked - just see what they did in Afganistan! Of course these issues are there in other related regimes as well and - there seems to be a growing desire by these types - to bully the world into their version of Islam - bully people - with terror. I for one think that we have to see that in terms of the criminal lowlife mindset in which it is. There presently isn't any greater political threats - from thugs - as needs to be seriously and fully redressed - as this thug progrom. My point was that a proper leader would go after them - yes - that isn't a popular approach in today's politically correct global strife arenas but - it is nonetheless necessary. Over time the west is going to have to deal with MUCH MORE of this [if not checked now] - what to speak of when the communists in China decide to move out over the world - [don't scoff at that too] so - we need our western leaders to see that they themselves do have to become free of duplicity and - fight the good fight. Quote: 1. he is directly responsible for tens of thousands innocent lives lost in Iraq. he killed much more people than Binladen. Reply: Well the truth is - that war was necessary. Even though I didn't agree with it in March 2003 - I do certainly accept that it was needed. The fact is we may never know what disputed weapons were taken into Syria when the Russians tipped 'sodamninsane' of his impending moment with 'justice'. He was and is a thug and - we have entered the era of the need to change regimes and - by force - at times. These nations - Iran Iraq Syria [and groups like Hamas and the Taliban] - they interfere in the business of other nations and - they are sending out their own 'crusaders' - into Africa - to slaughter the people there - again - to bully them - with terror - into submission to their militant version of Isalm. How many people has Binladen ruined? How many people's hearts and minds has he corrupted with his sick evil? You think about that. Wonder too - did 'sodamninsane' support this terror agenda? He did. How many murderers has Binladen created? How many terrorists are spawning due to him and his pogrom? I agree that there should be less death in Iraq and - for that - there needs to be an end to the insurgency - if that ends - then the war in effect - shall stop. It isn't the coalition forces who are responsible for the insurgency! Do the terrorists think that if they can slaughter enough people and - if they can terrorize the minds and hearts of the Iraqi people long enough - that the coalition shall just give up and go away? Well I don't see how nature shall permit that to go on - they and their beheadings and other heinous acts - are the very acts of DISHONOR that shall bring the justice of defeat - onto their own heads. NO - Bush isn't responsible for all that carnage. Quote: 2. he started an extremely costly and needless war, that only made US the most hated country in the world and thus created more threat to US interests. Reply: The people who hate the U.S. because of this war - already hated the U.S. - that is why we have this war! Yes it is costly and - I think that the OIL RICH Arab Nations - like Saudi Arabia - aught to pay thir part for this problem - one that has its origins there. For example - they can take less profits on the oil they are selling - the oil is costing so much [due to this needed action] - as they profit from a war - caused by a group which operated out of that nation and - one that has its origins - in that nation. I think that America aught to be Blessed for spending so much [of course the money is nothing compared to the lives spent on this] - when others are not. Quote: 3. he is a confirmed liar and a crook, serving the interests of international capital owners, not American people Reply: Well all leaders lie. Is he really a crook? Aren't we all to some measure - unless we are pure devotees? Yes - Mr. Bush is serving the interests of many different groups and individuals and - it is here now that he needs to start to evaluate his own interests - in terms of the success of the objective to his 'mission' - time to find out and - make changes to key points in foreign and domestic policy [the undemocratic and reasonless multi-billion dollar war on marijuana for example]. We cannot all sit around and complain about this war on terror and this state of affairs without understanding what is really going on and - why. We need to understand that we are indeed in perilous times and - it is going to take full and complete western resolve - to fight this. We have to fight against people who think that they are going to go to heaven for murdering you and - if they have to die in the process - all the better in their bent minds! So of course - when fighting - normal sane people don't wish to think of their own lives in that way [kindlings for radical change] - normal fighters - normal solidiers - wish to preserve their lives - that is why one fights [to preserve life from a clear and present threat] but - that isn't why the noted thugs fight and - I'm sure that you must understand this. They will die to kill and - that makes them a clear and present danger. What will they die to kill for? That adds the urgency factor to the issue! There are a number of key changes our western conservative leaders need to make - both in foreign and domestic policy - to be better disposed to success in this important struggle. One is compared to the lion when one is very strong in chasing an enemy. One should be a lamb at home and a lion in the chase. The lion never fails in the chase of an animal; similarly, the head of the state should never fail in chasing an enemy. [sB 1.12.22, purport] “The ksatriya’s duty is to protect the citizens from all kinds of difficulties, and for that reason he has to apply violence in suitable cases for law and order. Therefore he has to conquer the soldiers of inimical kings, and thus, with religious principles, he should rule over the world.” [bG 2.32, purport] The yogi should meditate upon His club, which is named Kaumodaki and is very dear to Him. This club smashes the demons, who are always inimical soldiers, and is smeared with their blood. [...] [sB 3.28.28] [read the purport to see our Lord's angry disposition to those who revile His pastimes] On the issue of being materialistic: One who offers Me respect but is envious of the bodies of others and is therefore a separatist never attains peace of mind, because of his inimical behavior towards other living entities. [sB 3.29.23] The bodily expression of a particular type of living entity is always ignored by the devotee. [sB 3.29.23, purport] I'm sure you know all this already prabhu. Ys, BDM

Melvin - what is that supposed to mean to this discussion?

Hari Bolo! Yah I'm not much surprised by your lack of vision either - not much surprised that in all of our discussions - in my satan myth thread you failed to defend your position on very important points. You are a obviously a very materialistic person. I wonder who you think should deal a blow to these fascists in Iran Syria Hamas etc., etc., - who? Russia and China? How do you think a ksatryia would act in this regard - would he wait for the demons and the problems - to become unmanageable before acting? Who can deny that there is a threat that is spreading via some 'Islamic' fascist types? Just look at Africa to see their MO. No doubt Bush isn't perfectly situated - but - he is more well positioned than Clinton was - he is more so than Kerry would have been. Give us examples of the three worst things about him and we can then contrast it to the other guys. YS, BDM PS: You're a 'Senior Member' based ONLY on the number of postings you've posted!

Melivin you're being unfair - you write: where you can find and meet christians and muslims watching cockfights inisde a cockpit betting These events [cockfights] are not promoted as 'christian and muslim' events - you're mentioning a cultural aberration [cockfights] and then attching 'christian and muslim' to it. How many hindus are involved in cultural aberrations? If we see an abortion clinic in India - do we thus say 'such and such is an hindu abortion clinic' - is that fair?? There is no doubt it's about the diet - but that is a cultural kali yuga cultural aberration in all nations - even India. So I would ask that you try to be fair and not post such mixed facts. To say that Hare Krishna's and Buddhists are vegetarian and thus 'special' is a kind of exclusivity that isn't really important - as even animals are vegetarian - the real idea is that we are to find the best of a bad bargain and - if you're trying to encourage the meat eaters to give it up you best not blame their faiths and scriptures for this - cultural aberration. That isn't going to encourage anyone now is it. Did you ever eat meat? Did you believe in God when you were a meat eater? Was is a sham to believe when you were a meat eater? Please Melvin we have to have as much compassion for the people who eat meat as we do for the poor animals that they eat - as they are a mirror of one another - those who eat this - become this and - those animals who are killed to be eaten - get a premature human birth - back and forth they go - but - when they 'meet' a devotee - like yourself - it's the moment that they have a potential opportunity - to hear and - thus become free of this nasty slaughterhouse diet - by turning to God in the proper persepective on this issue. Quote: Tell me how many economies would go bankrupt Reply: No fish! No economies have to go bankrupt - why should that be a matter for concern? Sure a few people who make their direct profit from this - they might be affected - but all others can go on - as people still have to eat and there are many soy and other good veggie meats now and - they'll only get better with such a change - so really - there isn't much of a worry about this issue - as noted - the slaughterhouse owners better have a 'plan B' for their economic development because the time for this change is near and it doesn't have to be any big ordeal. If people are really going to use their heads they are going to see the logic of what it said here: "Nothing will benefit human health or increase the chances for survival of life on earth as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” [Albert Einstein] YS, BDM

In our Temple it's the Ladies who do most of the singing - and with leading the kirtana - people take turns. As for women and the station of Guru - in the formal sense there isn't traditionally women gurus - yet in the practical sense women is guru as much as men - we are supposed to address everyone who is a sincere servant of God - as Prabhu or master - that is our mood. I have seen women do the puja and dress the deities etc., so there is no doubt that they are not shut out of the devotional services in the temples. It may be that in some Temples there is a local click that prevents this - but it isn't the way its supposed to be. Without making offense I have to say that there are too many 22-45 yr old male devotees with an ego issue. There may be as many female devotees who've tended to be interested in more worldly association with the male devotees. They all don't mean to be that way it's just how they've become - but we can encourage them as best as possible - especially the men - to be more inclusive and less rigid. YS, BDM

A butcher who kills an animal with a defective knife will die of the plague, and his soul will pass into a dog, whom he thus deprives of what belongs to him; for it is said (Exod. xxii. 30, "Ye shall cast it to the dogs." [Kitzur Sh'lh, fol. 17, col. 2] Interesting quote!

Hari Bolo! He is in the foreground and the trees are in the distance - the perspective may be a little off I didn't want Him too small yet - He may be too big. Otherwise? YS, BDM

Not everything is trash on TV - just most of it - Nice astrological allegory posting! Do you believe in God? In your other string you mention sorcery - do you think that your bhakti is less powerfull that the crazy witchcraft of others? YS, BDM

At last I come back to this post! I agree - why would anyone wish to merge - and they say it's bliss - but they won't know that when it happens to them - as that experiance [and knowing] of bliss is only possible - for a person!? It is so very clear that some souls [mayavadis] want spirituality but they do not want God - they go to great efforts to deny and avoid Him too! In the Kabbalah there is information about the soul and we are to take that information in context - the theory of souls as presented there isn't the all in all - the points there are possible - but there is no doubt that there is more to it. In the Kabbalah there is mention of some 974 generations created and destroyed - before Adam - so time is presented as being cyclic - though it's not expressly mentioned as such. In the original Torah books of the bible we don't see much information on soul - the explicatons of these points came later as commentary. The concept of the beginningless eternal nature of the soul - is something that is alluded to but not expressly stated. These points in Kabbalah deal less with literal meanings and much more with the mystical and - the use of allegory is quite cryptic. That is an important point to know. So in one regard the soul and the afterlife - can be a matter of perspective for those in the biblical traditions. For an example - there are even Christian groups - like the Jehovah's Witnesses - who deny the soul altogether - taking their information solely from the book of Ecclesiastes 9.5: For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. So with that text Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the eternal soul is a 'heathen' teaching that the bible doesn't speak of an eternal soul - but that is very wrong indeed! Thus Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the resurrection of bodies as the all in all - and they don't understand the context of that resurrection teaching. That is something that we have to see - that in most cases - this resurrection is in fact - rebirth. [there is more to it than that though] The point about (Adam Kadmon or Adam HaRishon?)? A man we were all suppose to have dwelled in as "One" at the beginning of "creation" - I would take that in many ways - as we too are made possible by a Manu - we can understand that Adam is a kind of Manu. I'm still doing my study and as time goes by - I'll know more and more and I'm right now working on a nice posting about this soul point - from a proper biblical perspective - and I hope to have it done not too long from now - we'll see. YS, BDM

People must be educated in understanding the glories of the Supreme; therefore the devotees who engage in preaching the glories of the Lord are never to be decried. It is the greatest offense. Furthermore, the holy name of Visnu is the most auspicious name, and His pastimes are also nondifferent from the holy name of the Lord. There are many foolish persons who say that one can chant Hare Krsna or chant the name of Kali or Durga or Siva because they are all the same. If one thinks that the holy name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the names and activities of the demigods are on the same level, or if one accepts the holy name of Visnu to be a material sound vibration, that is also an offense. [sB 3.15.25, purport] (21) One should not eulogize or praise anyone else before the Deity [Nectar of Devotion, chapter 8 Offenses to Be Avoided] The fact is one should not keep Shiva Linga on the same altar as the Supreme Lord - it's ok to have and to serve [only for more bhakti to Krishna] but one should be carfull not to make this offense. I believe that it's only on the respective feast days - Shiva ratri and Durgu puja - shall we find murtis of these Servants of the Lord - on the altar with the Lord. We keep our 'Shiva altar' on the TV - a good place - thus a reminder that He is in charge of the mode of ignorance

No ignorance that I see! In my humble opinion I think that your Guru might like to hear you preach in an expert manner - preach to him in a way so as to bring his KC interest under your control - so that means that you have to learn some things. That is where Prabhupada's books come in - even Srila Prabhupada read his own books! If you want to you may download a free older version of the veda base and you can use the search feature [much like searching] and thus approach the whole of the teachings of Srila Prabhupada on a topic by topic basis - in this way you can navigate through endless topics [being mindfull of proper context]. Find it here: http://www.winsite.com/bin/Info?26500000037010 It is a little older but it is everything and it is not all that complicated - if you have questions about the program just ask - I'll try to answer [or others may answer too] - it's not the windows version but it has all the books etc., and it's free. Your Guru should not be expected to answer all your questions. If he has only a few students - that may be another matter - but - I'm sure he has many. Better that you listen when he does speak and when you can learn something [i'm sure you know much now] - inspire him in a surprise discourse. Ys, BDM So

Very cool! Thank you! Yer servant, BDM

What's more amazing is that I didn't support Mr. Bush and - now I do! As for that Kirtanananda - he is - was and - ever shall be - a loser - a judas - an perversion. He was permitted by Krishna - as an example for all time - of the results of guru aparadha [offense] and - other capital sins towards others within the community of devotees. ys, BDM

Interesting points I'll come back to them soon. YS,

So we should consider the implications of this: Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion. [bG 9.14] Here - what is God saying - great souls - who are as noted in the text just previous [those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.] So He is not siding with any group - but rather - He is saying - great souls. Can we see the implication? Of course those who preach biblical exclusivity are misguided - but that is not the all end all of the issue. Ever read about the great Catholic Monk Thomas Merton? He writes of Bhagavad Gita 'As It Is': "The Gita can be seen as the main literary support for the great religious civilization of India, the oldest surviving culture in the world. The present translation and commentary is another manifestation of the permanent living importance of the Gita." http://www.harekrishna.com/col/founder/sp-s/sp-gita.html At that link you'll see comments from others of biblical background - are they wrong or somehow less genuine to their faiths than their noted misguided exclusionist brethren? YS, BDM

Any thoughts about these pictures? Does the Sri Rama one look better than the original [which is of course good too]? The figure of Rama is a pic of a polyresin murti - which is for sale at krishna culture.com He's a very nice [well priced] murti - especially as seen in context with a background. I want to get Him one day. But this murti worked well for this 'painting re-make'. BDM

Their highest view of the Supreme is a lot like the Jewish Kabbalists. In the Kabbalah, the Unmanifest God is described in descending form as Ain (No-thing), Ain Soph (One without End), and Ain Soph Aur (Limitless Light). For the sake of creation he eminates personal features (Sephiroth), but in his umanifest state he is impersonal and formless. This would contradict Vaisnavas and other personalists. Well actually as you know there are certian factors in considering who is a mayavadi. The mayavadi like the Buddhist doesn't really accept that we are eternally individual souls. For them seperate identity is a product of maya - their ultimate goal is to merge into the impersonal effulgence of the 'whole' [which is of course one aspect of God] - this 'merging' Srila Prabhupada equates with spiritual suicide - this 'merging' is something very undesirable for a personalist. Of course this merging isn't easy to attain nor is it permanent as we learn from Krishna. In fact this 'merging' is a version of 'heaven' for those who are in enmity with God! The other major factor is that a mayavadi thinks that God has no identity - that that too is ascribed as a product of illusion or maya. So for true mayavadis the form and identity of God are no more real than that of the Jiva or the soul. They teach that God or the supreme takes its form based on the mindset and attachments of the seeker. There are so many points that are not logical in their ideas - like how this impersonal one force becomes us and gods - how we and these 'gods' can interact with some seeming sense of seperate identity. So anyway their ideas are not logical. So the Buddhist ideas of God and soul are much the same - [as I understand it] they think that there is a one all pervasive force that has been divided into these seperate beings [and this world] - they teach that we are possesing a skanda - a sort of psychotropic imprint of the lives of other beings - that these skandas after death - imprint a new being's identity - very odd idea really. For them too God isn't any person nor does He have any individual attributes - of any kind - spiritual or otherwise - they are thinking that 'God' is a result of our attachments and illusions. As for the Hebrew and other biblical faiths - one cannot say that they are impersonalists - they don't ascribe to these core mayavadi ideas regarding the impersonal nature of all things and along with the concept that God and the soul have identity only as a result of our illusion or ignorance. As practiced in today's world it would seem that the biblical faiths have centered on the so-called formless aspect of God - which isn't necessarily impersonal - in the mayavadi sense. However - in the bible there are myriad of texts mentioning God's form and attributes - these have come to be regarded as metaphors or allegory but - that is a matter of opinion. I can present some of these verses sometime - if you like. Also in the biblical tradition there is an understanding of the soul as being an individual and being like God in quality. As we accept. There are even references to pre-existence. One must be careful about making conclusions from the 'Kabbalah' and it's information - it is very much a mystical allegory. So in the short end of it - I pretty much agree with your posting - except as noted. YS, BDM

Why did he leave? Was he lured by science or driven out by other things? Of course - we all hope he comes back!

Well that's all well and good and - in the program of inclusion it would be naive to think that everything can be included. Of course as I see it - Theosophists tend to make people think in an impersonal fashion about God - taking the all is one pantheistic approach - they also gave rise to the modern new age movements - which movements are of course 'helping' some people to open to the unseen [though not always spiritually healthy in expression] this thinking tends to promote that we don't need to have a personal relationship with God - instead making the seeker think that they are God. Would I ban these groups? Well of course not! Would I encourage people to stay within them? No. I take your point about those who accept that there was no God - to compare Buddha though is off-key. He had a specific mission and - He knew there was a God. To say that He didn't accept that - is incorrect. He preached against the vedas to stop animal sacrifices and - you know that. As for the Dali Lama - one could say that he doesn't believe in God - yet on the other hand one could say that he does in a sense. I have no quarrel with mayavadi Buddhists - do they have a quarrel with personalists? Sometimes. As for the ones converting villages as noted - I think that is wrong too. That other point - They [Theosophists] aren't the ones declaring jihad on people of other religions - the trash they [jihadis] are goes without saying. There is only one way to counter that and that is a widespread education program about these issues - people must be made aware of the facts - and not in a way that makes them dislike others as a result. Ys, BDM

"...Us and - them and - after all - we're only ordinary men..." I'm not bible thumping anyone - I'm trying to get a point through - a point that Srila Prabhupada very often mentions - that God is O-N-E. Also the fact is I'm trying to help individuals - such as your good self - understand that these traditions have more in common than not. How can you expect people of the other faiths to become more inclusive if you yourself are not willing to extend the same respects? Our world has come to an untenable situation. Why do we expect that people should try to understand things and - to work together to stave off quarrels and all the sequential realities which surround quarrel? You're seemingly angry at the so-called orthodox followers within biblical faiths - in that light you're casting aspersions on entire traditions. I'm asking you to try to be a little broad minded and to learn these things so that when for instance you meet with these followers or their theories you've something to reply with. For instance - it is commonly thought that the bible regards animals as having no soul - however the fact is otherwise - as a proper reading of the words in many texts show. It is also widely taught that Jesus espouced that he was the only way for everyone for all time and - study of the original words in the greek texts show that there is a mistranslation in that verse [John 14.6]. The practice of 'sacrifices' - as noted in the 'old testement' - are also not a part of the orignal teachings - these were introduced later and - even as one of the greatest teachers of Torah has well noted - 'the sacrifices were not so much ordained by God as there were tolerated - that it was for themselves that they did this' - there are many texts all through the torah and other books of the bible - to this end. Have you read any of them? Don't be like those opposite you - when you are confronted with these issues take each thing for what it really is and you'll see that you can indeed help people to open up to a better understanding. Isn't that what you should do? Try to help anyone and - everyone possible understand God better - to bring a keener interest forward in their minds about these various points? YS, BDM