Bhakta Don Muntean

Quote: totally meant to fan the flames of the "never again" mentality Reply: You say that like it's a bad thing! I hope you're not saying that you'd just as well as give up on that program - as the "never again" part - interferes with whose programs? Unless you too are in denial about what happened - to millions at the hands of the nazis!? So what - it turns out that the title post news piece isn't true - well - it ain't exactly true. Can you [any westerners] obtain a true copy of their new law - to see the exact wordings? I doubt it! Here is something [very true] about the leader of iran: He was brought up in the rough neighbourhoods of south Tehran, where a cocktail of poverty, frustration and xenophobia in the heydays of the Shah’s elitist regime provided fertile grounds for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism...Soon the whirlwind of Islamic revolution led by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini swept him from the classroom to the mosque and he joined a generation of firebrand Islamic fundamentalists dedicated to the cause of an Islamic world revolution....During the crackdown on universities in 1980, which Khomeini called the “Islamic Cultural Revolution”, Ahmadinejad and the OSU played a critical role in purging dissident lecturers and students many of whom were arrested and later executed. Universities remained closed for three years and Ahmadinejad joined the Revolutionary Guards...In the early 1980s, Ahmadinejad worked in the “Internal Security” department of the IRGC and earned notoriety as a ruthless interrogator and torturer. According to the state-run website Baztab, allies of outgoing President Mohammad Khatami have revealed that Ahmadinejad worked for some time as an executioner in the notorious Evin Prison, where thousands of political prisoners were executed in the bloody purges of the 1980s. http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2605 Yes I'm sure there are Jews Christians Zoroastrians and maybe - even a few hare krishna devotees in Iran - after all Srila Prabhupada did go there! Were any of the thousands of people tortured and murdered in the bloody purges of the 1980's - murdered for having one such book? How can we know? If they are there now - they aught to find a way out as - it's quite clear what this guy thinks!? Do you think Iran is a model for Islam and what is best for the world - if we could just all be like them? Is that what you think? What do you think of these things? Quote: (before you gasp in hoorror, realize that in Israel, a Jew cannot marry a christian) Reply: Is that so? Are you saying they cannot get a civil court to marry them? Even if it were so - that is NOTHING like these guys in Iran - just think about it - ok?

Hari Bolo! So what does this have to do with Iran? What went on 800 years ago is one thing - but what about today? Is it that you're saying if the Iranian regime continues with this program it could end up that the christian nations shall require it too in the future - that Muslims would have to wear an identifier - after all - what was once in 1215 - could be again today? YS,

That is the point - when one sees a bent leader - who doesn't thus see that the usual first victims of such 'leaders' - are the people of the particular nation where the tyrant is - thus - I would hope that enough people in Iran can indeed see that he is 'nutz' - without being any more victimized to find out the need for change.

Quote: Israel bears the burden of responsibility for the present crisis in the Middle East, the World Council of Churches has announced, following a meeting of its Executive Committee in Geneva from May 16-19. Reply: That is bunk - there is a collective responsibility [this includes the world too to some measure]! Quote: The Christian Left's leading ecumenical organization stated Israel's actions towards the Palestinians "cannot be justified morally, legally or even politically." Reply: Can the actions of the palestinian's - the homocide bombings and other terror directed at Israeli citizens - can that be justified? Well it appears that this left-wing council thinks it can be! Quote: The failure "to comply with international law" had "pushed the situation on the ground to a point of no return," they concluded. Reply: Oh yes it's all that simple isn't it - it must be great for those that have a biased and subjective view of things. Quote: The WCC condemned the killing of innocent civilians by "both sides" in the conflict and called for the Palestinians to "maintain the existing one-party cease-fire toward Israel" and asked Israel to base its security on "the equitable negotiation of final borders" with its neighbors. However, the present disparities between Israel and Palestine were "appalling," the WCC said. Reply: Well duh I guess it might be - however to say that Israel is inciting this course of events is unfair. The course is being charted much more by the bent ideology of pseudo-political terror groups who have no desire to see a peace with Israel - in fact - they wish that Israel were wiped of the face of the earth [no it's never going to happen!] - these are the ones who keep the terror [and lack of resolutions] going. Why is it that Israelis are the bad guys - this council thinks that Israel doesn't want to settle this issue? The only reason there is a push to impose borders is to make the other side wake up to the real process again. If they don't wake up to it - then there won't be peace and the borders shall be drawn - for security purposes - not for land grabbing. Quote: "One side is positioning itself to unilaterally establish final borders on territory that belongs to the other side; the other side is increasingly confined to the scattered enclaves that remain. On one side there is control of more and more land and water; on the other there are more and more families deprived of land and livelihoods. On one side as many people as possible are being housed on occupied land; on the other side the toll mounts of refugees without homes or land. One side controls Jerusalem, a city shared by two peoples and three world religions; the other-Muslim and Christian-watches its demographic, commercial and religious presence wither in Jerusalem," the WCC said. Reply: Most of what is there on that land was created with the Israeli state - not to make offense - but - it was a desert when they went there and now look - so that has been a part of my plan outlined in other threads here on this issue - there will be a settlement that sees that all get a fair share. But - this cannot happen if there is going to be contined abuse of the situation - the leaders of the palestinians should step aside - have another election - don't run again and - disolve hamas. If they are serious about a future for their people - that is what they aught to do. Quote: The WCC claimed a double standard was at work in the international community that favored Israel, saying, "The side set to keep its unlawful gains is garnering support from part of the international community. The side that, despairing at those unlawful gains, used legitimate elections to choose new leaders is being isolated and punished." "Democracy must be protected where it is taking root," the WCC said, calling for a relaxation of American, British and EU sanctions against Hamas. "Peace must come soon or it may not come to either people for a long time," they concluded. Reply: Oh I see - we the world - should relax on hamas? Not going to happen. Check out this link to this posting to see what I used to think - the benefit of the doubt that I extended to the so-called freedom fighters: http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/hinduism/18840-why-does-everyone-always-blame-jews-3.html?highlight=peace+plan+muntean Of course now it appears that the picture has become more detailed - the issue has been shifting with the Islamic revolution - as noted by me before in many postings here - they are fighting for things other than peace and freedom for their people. It became different with Arafat - yet the Palestinians the Israelis and - the world doesn't have the time for hamas to sort out what it stands and - for what it intends to accept. These same people were part of the faction which started the latest intifada - because an israeli leader went to the temple mount - how can they be taken seriously as leaders for peace? Have they ever made even a small effort to convince everyone that they don't wish to wipe out israel one day? No. Can anyone give these leaders the benefit of the doubt without some serious and powerful transformations - within not only hamas but - within the rest of the groups and individuals forming the noted 'resistance' and - the islamic revolution in general? Does this world council of churches thus know where they may fit into the present course of the noted Islamic revolution? Quote: The WCC's Executive Committee called upon its 340 member churches in over 100 countries representing approximately 550 million Orthodox, Anglican and Protestant Christians to "share solidarity with people on both sides of the conflict," and to "use legitimate forms of pressure to promote a just peace and to end unlawful activities by Israelis or Palestinians." Reply: That's all well and good but - let's not see the onesided blind assessments that we see in this statement. Let's see that this doesn't further corrupt from a political conflict to - become a nonsensical "those damn jews" issue - as the leaders of Hamas and - so many others want to make it into. Quote: It also asked its members to "find constructive ways to address threats experienced among the Jewish people, including the nature, prevalence and impact of racism in local, national and international contexts." Reply: First they must search out their own hearts - as that is where I see some of that residing - if their hearts aren't right - then that is the greatest threat to the Jewish peoples who are being demonized - of course starting long before the founding of the modern state of Israel. Where was the real out-cry when so many Jews were slaughtered - for being jews! Where was our world? Well - seeing the comments of Leaders like the then prime minister of - canada - who said [when asked about jewish refugees to canada] 'one was too many' and who after meeting hitler in 1937 said something like 'he's a simple sort of fellow not any threat to anyone'! Then there are the comments made by other leaders of that time too! Yes the world said it was sorry after - but - too little too late if you ask me. Who didn't know among those leaders of the plan to purge the world of the jews? Were any of them in on it? History is darker than we might want to see in this regard. Thus when they say: "find constructive ways to address threats experienced among the Jewish people, including the nature, prevalence and impact of racism in local, national and international contexts." Let all of us see to it that this time - they mean it. Quote: In March 2005, the WCC urged its member churches give "serious consideration" to pulling investments out of Israel and endorsed the 2004 decision by the Presbyterian Church of the United States to seek "phased selective divestment" from Israel. "This [Presbyterian] action is commendable in both method and manner, uses criteria rooted in faith and calls members to do the things that make for peace," the WCC said. Reply: Already a confrontational and reactive plan! Just after saying that they agree with "a relaxation of American, British and EU sanctions against Hamas" - they wish to impose them on Israel? Quote: The Presbyterian Church will revisit its 2004 divestment decision next month at its 217th General Assembly in Birmingham, Alabama, in response to criticism that the divestment call was one-sided and ill-informed. Reply: Well that's obvious but - I think that they [we all] need to do a deeper searching - in themselves and in their respective faith groups to see where they should be making the adjustments - do this first... There was a time that one could have easily said that to be born a jew was a curse - no matter where practically in the world. So - use your imagination - we all have one - start there and -begin to think about how you or anyone might feel [about the rest of the world] - being part of a group - hated and hunted for 2000+ years - all due to a global ignorace - of those who hate you for your race and religion. How would you feel? Time to cure our world of the disease of hate and - its preventable collateral damages. I realize that some might not like that I have said these things - these things may make them feel uncomfortable - but we must do that - we all must search out our hearts and minds and clean out that trash that might lead us to hate and fear - for no good reason. The global generational hate directed at Jews - is for no good nor justifiable reasons - they don't deserve to be demonized - as they are time and again! We must know the truth and - know how we feel about it too. We cannot resent others due to prejudice as then we shall be resented too and - we would be the cause of it too! Nearly everyone everywhere has a tinge of prejudices and we must work through them not give into them under the impetus of kali yuga or - the age of quarrel. All the major faith groups teach inclusion - so - let's say we've all had enough with exclusionist and other useless tendencies within ourselves - individually and collectively...

....and we are far from the bones of our people...

:crying2::crying2: - me a river........

Is that you can become God too?

DON'T BE SILLY - and that wasn't too much to read! Your prejudices against Islam prevented you from reading it - isn't that right? Who is that in your avatara picture?

Here is another simple animation of - 'the problem' that the world faces:

"Our Common Home"

In his recent illegitimate letter to the U.S. President - the president of iran wrote: Do you not think that if all of us come to believe in and abide by these principles [and we don't have wonder if he intends it to be by radical and revolutionary force if needed!]<b>, that is, monotheism, worship of God, justice, respect for the dignity of man, <big>belief in the Last Day</big>...Do you not think that belief in these principles promotes and guarantees peace, friendship and justice? Do you not think that the aforementioned written or unwritten principles are universally respected? Will you not accept this invitation? That is, a genuine return to the teachings of prophets, to monotheism and justice, to preserve human dignity and obedience to the Almighty and His prophets? Mr President, History tells us that repressive and cruel governments do not survive....Can one deny the signs of change in the world today? Is this situation of the world today comparable to that of ten years ago? Changes happen fast and come at a furious pace.</b> So I would think that he aught to understand that he [and his terror program] are denonced within Koran - it is written thus: <b>And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah <big>and the last day</big>; and they are not at all believers. They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive. There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied. And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers. Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive.</b> [Koran 2.8-12] Any questions?

Well the leaders of Iran and their followers aught to have to wear the nazi patch - we all know what 'that' looks like right?

So why is there a propaganda that the expected Hebrew messiah is actually some "antichrist"? Why is it so widespread and seemingly entrenched in the fabric of cultures and faiths? Who started this lie? Why did they start this lie? To know the scriptures is to know that Jesus was not the messiah [people should know and respect who he really was/is] - so - is the enmity born of that - in those that believe he was? Is it that they too knew the sciptures were foretelling some other person - who was not Jesus - that they then began to create an antichrist figure - by interpolation and misrepresentation of texts. The Muslims and the christians both now have a whole delusional theology - bent around this illusion. A feeling of hate and envy that was created too long ago to know is now being blindly followed by millions and - it may be going to lead to a scenario that brings injury to many in our world. Haven't there been enough murdered over this hate? How long is this hate - this disease - going to infect humanity? These people who created this antichrist/al-dajal theology were very very passionate about it and - they 'feared' that the real Messiah could 'show up' at any time - so - they really hyped the message - that if he did show up the peoples would believe and say that he was - the antichrist. So here today this lie is being taught and - a sincere study shows that it really has nothing to do with the truth - and - what if the Hebrew messiah were to advent soon [as he is to be a human being] - how many would try to kill him or otherwise denounce him as the antichrist? He has his work ahead of him - that's for sure!

Total nonsense - Hitler in all his delusions was interested in only that which was german - thus - he was so-called following [not even really having any faith though] the old pagan gods of gaul. Surely Hitler never once wrote anything about the vedic texts - in his mind the people in india were pretty much savages - which were then under full subjugation - by the British. In fact there was a time that I was unaware of the deep hate in places outside germany - recently I saw these comments [and check out where they are employed!]: http://etori.tripod.com/dajjalsystem/thirdtemple.html So good old winston churchill said horrible things 86 years ago - BEFORE - the hitler era - so me thinks there is a big problem and it was bigger than just hitler - [and it besmirches the present as well]: <center>"It would almost seem as if the gospel of Christ and the gospel of Antichrist were destined to originate from the same people" Winston Churchill, Sunday Illustrated Herald, February 8, 1920 </center>

Yes let america retreat from their position on the world's stage and just see who and what might rush to fill the void... You don't really want to imagine that world - do you? Here is a good link from Google cache: http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:wijOKGrDVMAJ:pnews.org/ArT/AiS/SOra.shtml+the+people+in+Iran+&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=40&client=firefox-a Oh and I don't think that Mr. Bush has any aversion to reading - even long trashy diatribes by people like the president of Iran. Of course I take Andy's comments as satire and - no more.

"The Da Vinci Code" Wandering lost souls with no shelter will believe just about anyone and anything. This book/film is just a case in point. Here is a thought - maybe these people should understand just 'who' and 'what' Jesus was/is - then - one might see this sort of non-sense for what it is. For example - Jesus was not the messiah - yet how many people believe he is? Why do they believe that? Why are 99.99% duped by 'that'? Then the issues are really even more compounded for them when we explain that while Jesus was not God - he is an impowered incarnation of God! What is so amazing is just how 'popular' this whole "The Da Vinci Code" delusion is - at least with harry potter it's known and accepted as fiction and fantasy - yet the same populations scarf down this other trash as though it were true. One day there is going to be an even more intense attack on ALL BELIEVERS - in this manner. We have to see that there is only one way to stop this and - that is the truth speading - one must learn the truth and then find a way to give it out to those they encounter in life. Don't waste your time going to see any movie that disparages Lord Jesus!

Very Nice!

Not that I really care but... You are making more out of the use of the word-phrase 'sex life' - while it clearly means only the act of producing God conscious children - it doesn't indicate that one builds a life around that 'act'. Prabhupada says within the purport that 'sex life' - is for begetting Krishna conscious children - not otherwise. Of course that then means that 'gay sex life' is a stumbling block for an individual - because there is no result - bearing God conscious children. It has a personal karmic reaction - not a collective one. How many people are there 'everywhere' in our world engaged in 'sex life' and producing children that are not God conscious? From the karmic perspecitive - how isn't that worse [from the collective karmic standpoint] than those who engage in 'gay sex life'? When irreligion is prominent in the family, O Krsna, the women of the family become corrupt, and from the degradation of womanhood, O descendant of Vrsni, comes unwanted progeny. [bG 1.40] ...Irresponsible men also provoke adultery in society, and thus unwanted children flood the human race at the risk of war and pestilence... [bG 1.40 purport] How are gay people responsible for 'that' degradation of womanhood - how can they be responsible for unwanted progeny and - we see further: "When there is increase of unwanted population, a hellish situation is created both for the family and for those who destroy the family tradition..." [bG 1.41] That is our world today! So I would say you should find out the lack of those quotes in the shastra that show as much of a nonsensical and disastrous collective result - from so-called homosexuals within a society? YS,

What is that supposed to mean? Are you sure about that? You think that every gay person does that? How about two women? Seems quite impossible for them - so - I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Fact remains - the Torah is expressing a point about God's serious displeasure regarding 'sodomy' - in that Leviticus perscription. It's you who are equating sodomy with homosexuality. While this forum isn't the place to discuss any of this subject matter - this thread has a particular theme and - it would seem that this issue would naturally have its place in this discussion. That said - I have known [not in the biblical sense ] homosexuals who are quite averse to 'sodomy' [even without knowing the biblical viewpoint] - in fact - I would say that it's quite a generalization on your part - to make the 'connection' you have. There must be some statistical information online - you might find that and use it to back up your assertion. It is nasty to say that gay people are sodomites and thus try to make some case on that basis. It again makes people rail against gays based on innuendo and not facts. Indeed those that engage in that activity are very much displeasing God and there is a deadly disease - HIV/AIDS that is now the probable result of that activity - is that a natural consequence or - a coincidence? If there were any doubts in the minds of people regarding this activity - there aught not be any more. So you might do well to better understand proper some perspective in the things around you? A discussion about the book of Leviticus is another matter. Have 'we' had this discussion before? Have 'we' been over this Biblical vs. Vedic baggage issues? YS,

Of course the leader of Iran wants a war - he as much as repeated it no less than three times in his letter to the U.S. president. In fact - that whole letter was a less than veiled description of his bent reasons! Of course one would think that by common sense Iran wouldn't want any nasty war with the west - because that's what it would be - nasty. However - does the leader of Iran demonstrate clear common sense within his letter to the U.S. president? No. He feigns an attempt at pointing at so-called western injustices and tries to connect these - to the nation that he is holding fully responsible for 'everything wrong' in the world. Hardly common sense. It's like he is saying that no Muslim nation is responsible - in anyway for the world's problems. There are a number very rich Arab nations - who may be as attached to western style comforts and - the best in life - while others [even in the Muslim world] go without. He doesn't mention these. Why not? By standards that we all know - Iran itself has much more than many other nations - they have an infrastructure that brings hydro and other services to their homes. Is that the norm for the world's six billion people? Not. So - are we to think then that he is being presumptuous and hypocritcal? In Iran there is as much 'consumption' as there is in the west. It may be on a different level but - it's as much there - all the same. Even if you compare Iran to Mexico or the Central American nations - Iran has more. So what is Iran prepapred to do - to change - to help in the so-called equal distribution of things? Not much considering that their leader only singles out 'the west' as the 'offenders' in this regard. Certainly the west does not want war with Iran or - any nation - but - what do you do if there are these less than subtle indicators - that show it's on the horizon? Clearly the letter written by the leader of Iran sets out their agenda and - their desires for an apostate Isalmic Revolution and global republic. They say that the west is doing this [spreading its own democratic ideology] - but - the west isn't contemplating any genocides! If the west is interested in any regime changes - in some place or another - then it's got more to do with the leaders of a nation playing an ill-game and - being a particular kind of threat to too many others. We should have learned about apathy and genocide from the past - let's hope the 'free' world has an understanding that one does not wait for the mass graves - to act to check its progess... Again - the leader of Iran would try to say that the west is engaged in a gencide of Muslims - especially Arab Muslims - but - that isn't true - not in the least. Given the chance - their Islamic revolution could and would turn to genocide - there are enough comments from enough of their 'leaders' to make one see that! Of course these people do NOT actually represent Islam. The sooner the REAL Muslims in the world - start speaking out - with a single voice - against this - then they too shall be targets of this revolution. We can pray to God that there be a settlment of these things as directed by Him - there doesnt need to be any wars - but - we cannot be too sentimental and think that these risks shall just disolve away at His Hand - we must do what we can - to pray to Him to be able to educate others about the facts and - if the fight comes - we know that the west cannot back down - even if Russia and China decide to show more of their duplicity in this connection. [no offense to them] We must NOT under estimate either these problems nor - the power of sincere prayer to move the situation into a better direction. The only thing that can avert a war with Iran may be an inward-revolution - a civil war - from within...could it happen? Could God dish that out to the leaders of Iran?

That Leviticus quote is speaking about sodomy - not homosexuality - check it out...

Here is a good thought: Spiritual realization and sex pleasure go ill together. [bG 5.21, purport] Of course that means both go ill - so - we really cannot pursue sex and find a great spiritual life - nor can we pursue a spiritual life and find a great sex life - it really is logical. I think that when people associate and meet for the first time what are the thoughts? Do we wish to meet people for the Lord's enjoyment or - our own. That seems to me to be the worst of things - to make another individual soul attached to another individual soul - based on this desire to enjoy one another. It's a subtle thing but - it really is the stumbling block - we must love God more than anyone and thus we must be more attached to Him in our hearts and minds. Prabhupada gives this example: ...a married woman’s attachment for her paramour. The wife always thinks of her lover, even while doing her household chores. In fact, she does her housework even more carefully so that her husband will not suspect her. In the same way, we should always remember the supreme lover... [NBS 37] Then Krishna says too: Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend. [bG 18.65] So there it is - where you're [that's each of us!] concerned God is all - "I Me and - MINE"...a better way to see the 'first commandment' - is this way - "you shall have no other [in your heart] before Me"...

I posted these on another thread and - I thought that it would generate discussion here: The question of ‘sexuality’ is one that is to be asked by almost every soul in the human form of life – no matter their particular so-called orientation. We have to ask ourselves - what is the basis of this contentious issue and - how does it really relate to our actual existence. Indeed - it has been mentioned in this discussion that one’s sexuality is ‘a state of being’. That is true. The Lord says: Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. [bG 8.6] So of course - in terms of samsara or rebirth - there is a dichotomy for the soul created through their identification of their ‘identity’ - with sexuality – again - this is true - no matter the so-called orientation. There should be a mention here in this posting that it is natural and 'normal' for some souls to appear homosexual and some to appear heterosexual - within this material nature - this is as a result of many karmic factors but - it isn't a perversion that one is gay. That said - there are aberrations in expression within both of these orientations. Some asuric individuals - of both groups - choose to violate the hearts minds and bodies of others - [it starts with their contemplating of these sins within their minds] - to so-called express or otherwise gratify their aberrant sexual urges and they are of course - demons - whose activities aught to be fully checked. It is especially a violation for adult people to engage in sex of any kind - subtle or otherwise - with adolescent individuals - individuals under the age of 19! These offenders should especially be made an example of in severe reprisals from the State. Today's courts however are not serious enough about this issue yet. I'm here not in any way discussing so-called adolescent sexuality - that is something - generally - which I think adults shouldn't even talk about. Since age is an important part of the issue - in my opinion - if one is say already 45 years old - they have no business having sex with 19-30 year old people. That manner of generation mixing - is so much maya - that older people shall have such connections - with much younger people - is a severely conditioning practice! It cultivates a deeper bodily attachment within ones mind - for ones past younger body and - it thus makes for a greater mental suffering for such people - in being forced to see that a 25 year old body - is no longer their's. This scenario becomes compounded as we age. Thus for their own good - people should - through life - thus act - within their own generation - in these matters. More could be said about this... The thus 'normal' homosexual and heterosexual individuals have to at some point understand that we are not these bodies and related designations: My dear King and hero, whatever you have spoken sarcastically is certainly true. Actually these are not simply words of chastisement, for the body is the carrier. The load carried by the body does not belong to me, for I am the spirit soul. There is no contradiction in your statements because I am different from the body. I am not the carrier of the palanquin; the body is the carrier. Certainly, as you have hinted, I have not labored carrying the palanquin, for I am detached from the body. You have said that I am not stout and strong, and these words are befitting a person who does not know the distinction between the body and the soul. The body may be fat or thin, but no learned man would say such things of the spirit soul. As far as the spirit soul is concerned, I am neither fat nor skinny; therefore you are correct when you say that I am not very stout. Also, if the object of this journey and the path leading there were mine, there would be many troubles for me, but because they relate not to me but to my body, there is no trouble at all. [sB 5.10.9] Now we have designated ourselves on the basis of our bodily relationships. We think, “I am an American,” “I am an Indian,” “I am a brahmana,” “I am black,” “I am white,” “I am strong,” “I am weak,” “I am fat,” “I am thin.” These are all bodily designations. When one becomes free of these designations and thinks, “I am an eternal servant of Krsna,” one possesses real jnana, or knowledge. [DWT, 7] There are scores of quotes that confirm like that – that we are spirit souls – we choose to identify with the body or – we choose to identify with our real identity as soul – as such – when we quit the present body – our subtle mind will have been creating our next body based on our desires and our merit as moved by our particular identifications – body or soul. When we are in knowledge we see this: We are after designations. Someone wants to become a son, someone wants to become Lord, someone wants to become the president or a rich man or a king or something else. As long as we are attached to these designations, we are attached to the body because designations belong to the body. But we are not these bodies, and realizing this is the first stage in spiritual realization. We are associated with the three modes of material nature, but we must become detached through devotional service to the Lord. If we are not attached to devotional service to the Lord, then we cannot become detached from the modes of material nature. Designations and attachments are due to our lust and desire, our wanting to lord it over the material nature. As long as we do not give up this propensity of lording it over material nature, there is no possibility of returning to the kingdom of the Supreme… [bG, Introduction] The activities of the body, or the figurative city of body, are conducted automatically by the particular modes of nature. The soul, although subjecting himself to the conditions of the body, can be beyond those conditions, if he so desires. Owing only to forgetfulness of his superior nature, he identifies with the material body, and therefore suffers. [bG 5.13, Purport] This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature. How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. [bG 13.22, Purport] So it really is an adjustment to our thinking. What is it that causes the most attachment to the body and bodily identification? The highest benefit that can be awarded to a human being is to train him to be detached from sex life, particularly because it is only due to sex indulgence that the conditioned life of material existence continues birth after birth. Human civilization in which there is no control of sex life is a fourth-class civilization because in such an atmosphere there is no liberation of the soul encaged in the material body. Birth, death, old age and disease are related to the material body, and they have nothing to do with the spirit soul. But as long as the bodily attachment for sensual enjoyment is encouraged, the individual spirit soul is forced to continue the repetition of birth and death on account of the material body, which is compared to garments subjected to the law of deterioration. [sB 2.6.20, Purport] We can see a very revealing instruction within the narration of Mohini-incarnation and Lord Siva: While Lord Siva observed the beautiful woman playing with the ball, She sometimes glanced at him and slightly smiled in bashfulness. As he looked at the beautiful woman and She watched him, he forgot both himself and Uma, his most beautiful wife, as well as his associates nearby. [sB 8.12.22] His senses being agitated, Lord Siva, victimized by lusty desires, began to follow Her, just as a lusty elephant follows a she-elephant. [sB 8.12.27] Just as a maddened bull elephant follows a female elephant who is able to conceive pregnancy, Lord Siva followed the beautiful woman and discharged semen, even though his discharge of semen never goes in vain. [sB 8.12.32] O Maharaja Pariksit, best of kings, when Lord Siva had fully discharged semen, he could see how he himself had been victimized by the illusion created by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thus he restrained himself from any further maya. [sB 8.12.35] In the Purport to this verse Srila Prabhupada says: Once one is agitated by lusty desires upon seeing a woman, those desires increase more and more, but when semen is discharged in the act of sex, the lusty desires diminish. The same principle acted upon Lord Siva. He was allured by the beautiful woman Mohini-murti, but when his semen had been fully discharged, he came to his senses and realized how he had been victimized as soon as he saw the woman in the forest…. So we are given this episode from Lord Vishnu and Lord Siva – so that we might [in part] understand that as soon as we become ‘infected’ by desire we’ll chase after it - unless we train ourselves not to. Somehow or other one must be enlightened about his past, present and future. One who is interested only in his present body and who tries to enjoy his senses to the fullest extent is understood to be engrossed in the mode of ignorance. His future is very, very dark. Indeed, the future is always dark for one who is grossly covered by ignorance. Especially in this age, human society is covered by the mode of ignorance, and therefore everyone thinks his present body to be everything, without consideration of the past or future. [sB 6.1.49, Purport] One tries to enjoy the five sense objects, namely form, sound, taste, aroma and touch, not knowing the actual goal of life, which is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Because of disobeying the Supreme Lord, one is put into material conditions, and he then tries to improve his situation in a concocted way, not desiring to follow the instructions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. [sB 6.1.50, Purport] One who is able to withdraw his senses from sense objects, as the tortoise draws his limbs within the shell, is to be understood as truly situated in knowledge. [bG 2.58] While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises. [bG 2.62] We have to consider that mere abstinences are not real renunciations: One who restrains the senses and organs of action, but whose mind dwells on sense objects, certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender. [bG 3.6] We have to really transfer our primary attachment and - that is where this sex-life issue becomes the make or break point for an aspiring transcendentalist. The enjoyment of the objects of the senses actually reposes within and culminates with - the sex act – of the senses it’s the sense of touch that is ‘wired’ to this attachment - touch being the most engaging of the senses. We know from Gita that the mind and the senses are the sitting places of lust – in fact lust corrupts our intelligence - by keeping the mind engaged with so many sense objects and these interactions with the senses and the sense objects are the basic foundation for our attachments. We also learn for Gita that everything around us is covered by the modes of nature or the qualities of nature – goodness passion and ignorance – thus as we keep our senses engaged with objects and activities they are covered by any combination of these particular modes. We know that we have to come to the mode of goodness - to be able to at last transcend these modes altogether. If we choose to think that our passion-based sexuality is a part of our real identity - that is a great obstacle – no matter the so-called orientation concerned. When we accept that we are the body we tend to accept that sexuality is a part of our identity – this affects everything we think feel and do. Once we can begin to see this misidentification - the question of control derives first - in responding to or not responding to - our urges. Without doubt as any activity is covered by the qualities of nature and as are individuals and objects - to engage in sex with - is to create karma with that individual – it’s a fact. There is a subtle contamination that results from such interactions when they are merely sense gratification [not to produce children]. Lord Krishna says: A person who is not disturbed by the incessant flow of desires—that enter like rivers into the ocean which is ever being filled but is always still—can alone achieve peace, and not the man who strives to satisfy such desires. [bG 2.70] Without a doubt - in my own past I’ve realized how contaminating - to the mind and heart - it is to actually have sex! Now for each of us such realizations are timed differently and - yes we all may not be able to be fully celibate – of course - in the question of celibacy there enters the question of degrees – so it is generally taken to mean that a celibate individual refrains from sexual activity with all other individuals – in the ultimate sense - it also includes all artificial gratification – but - where time and circumstances are concerned - there may be the question of the latter being the lesser of two evils. So in this thread the question is about the relevant spiritual questions regarding the disputed propriety of gay relationships – including monogamous ones. Just like any ‘straight’ relationship – within which there is sense gratification in the form of sex – ALL these types of relationships are based in illusion – really they are. If in such a relationship - one cannot legitimately have sex then - what is the point of that relationship? It’s better for the needs of companionship - to have good friends and - to not worry about playing house with someone. If people choose to live this way [gay monogamous relationships] – that is their business and - we as devotees tend to respect people’s rights and seeming prudence in this connection – we do support their monogamous prudence – but not in practical convention - through changing the whole of the philosophical reality to suit it. We are not going to see a time when same sex marriage arrangements are spiritually acceptable – it simply isn’t needed. I don’t think that it’s good - even from the materialistic social perspective. As an example - I note that recently here in Canada the Supreme Court decided on a precedent case - dealing with ‘sex clubs’. On the whole - they decided that such sex clubs - were not in violation of the law and - that they should be permitted to operate [without restraints] – of course - what is the real impact of these sex clubs on individuals and society in general? I think that it is interesting that the same Court decided that marijuana should stay illegal – saying that there is ‘no standing constitutional right to posses and use it’ – thus they ignored everything about the facts of the issue including the real science behind the issue and - they chose to make a capricious decision – maybe it's because they don’t smoke grass and they don’t want to – thus it stays illegal.<o></o> However these sex clubs on the other hand – the justices decided what they did - because they themselves may one day like to ‘legitimately’ patronize such an establishment? I'm not trying to insult anyone - I'm just making a point. Myself - I see that all these sex clubs [many of which existed in larger cities prior to this case] are degrading and seedy environments - where the propensity for unsafe sex and the spread of disease are engendered. This new decision now seriously promotes a further degraded environment to spread everywhere. Like gambling VLT's - at first there were only a few here and there - now - there's tens of thousands of them - everywhere. It now makes it possible for married people to commit adultery - so much like 'going for a beer' and - it makes fornication for unmarried individuals that much easier too. Without a doubt this decision shall do much to erode family and societal morality. They cannot justify their capricious marijuana ruling but thanks to them - this sex club thing may soon be moving to a neighborhood near yours! How to control ones senses within such a society? So back to the point - if gay people choose to live together and make some commitment that is their business – but they cannot expect to change spiritual traditions - based on a growing societal propensity - for inclusions of same sex marriages. We cannot change these facts of scriptures - to suit our modern societal needs. Of course Prabhupada says: The sex demand is inevitable for everyone, but one who has a fixed wife is saved from the onslaught of the sense enemies. A man who possesses a good wife does not create a disturbance in society by corrupting virgin girls. Without a fixed wife, a man becomes a debauchee of the first order and is a nuisance in society… [sB 3.14.20, purport] So I would tend to apply that to the same sex people too – while telling them the rest of what is written here. Of course - I’m not beyond all these 'normal' sex issues too! I myself have not had sex - for over ten years and - I don’t feel I’m missing out on anything good. I have nothing to worry about - as far as disease unwanted pregnancy and relationships with their baggage – it is liberating. I have had the overwhelming sex-desire struggle in my own life – and I think there are degrees of renunciations and - we each find them as permitted by our own sincere desires - one way or the other. There was a time that I too embraced my sexuality - as though it were God created and natural – I dismissed [as outmoded morality] the parts of scriptures that made my illusory identity feel uncomfortable. However as the scriptures tell us – trying to satisfy our lusty identity only results in frustrations. So the choice then was to understand that either choice [to have or not to have sex] may make one uptight and frustrated – i.e.: ‘why cannot I find a good relationship and be happy’ - or - ‘let me tolerate this urge and let it pass then I shall see that that engagement is a perpetual downer’. As noted - the issues - the transcending of sexuality and - the attainment of full celibacy must [for some] also include the factor of personal artificial ‘satisfaction’ of ones sexual urges. We must never forget the understanding that we are to see these urges - for what they are and - not give in to them - as far as possible – now that may take time - depending on many factors but – in such a scenario – better that one makes an end to these urges oneself - without involving any others? Of course that too is contaminating and - not conducive to our liberation from the noted bondage to bodily consciousness – but doing away with the urge that way may stave off the propensity to fornicate long enough - to realize these things in proper perspective. Too often in trying to satisfy ones urges - one goes into the worst of associations and one spends time and money – one really spends too much - over-endeavoring for one moment of so-called bliss – it’s hardly worth the chase. I do not want anyone to think that I’m endorsing a certain practice but - the alternate behaviors - as discussed in this thread - are more contaminating and are thus more acutely going to check ones spiritual progress. As we go through the day what are we thinking about? Krishna? The soul? The body? What? It is up to us to program our minds to not engage the senses with this sex desire - at every appearance of the urge to do so. If we want to try to be happy here in our delusional sexual reality - we can forget all about this and - the delusion and suffering never ends… If we are serious about serving God and becoming pure enough to be liberated – then we shall accept what scriptures tell us about these things. If we are having sex with 'other individuals' - we are going to be more attached to those 'others' [mostly the bodies of] than we are to God. It's a very subtle point - but in that regard - so too are its inevitable results - complete forgetfullness of our primary connection - our connection to God. In our original uncontaminated nature we are existing for His satisfaction. He is the Enjoyer and the souls are the enjoyed. By nature - God is the Energetic Supreme Masculine and - we souls are all the inferior feminine energy. In the basic understanding - when we wish to have sex we - the enjoyed - wish to imitate God as - the Enjoyer. We also must know that these urges are connected to a bodily function. This bodily function is connected to procreation - if the truth is told - in a God-centered marriage relationship - the focus isn't on the bodily function of procreation - it's supposed to be an association meant to regulate our senses. By nature's design the natural consequence of sex is the formation of new bodies - children. If we produce children it is a great deal of material and spiritual responsibility - this result is intended to curb the unrestricted indulgence of sex in a marriage relationship. Of course - humans have sought out many calculations to check this natural result - i.e.: birth control and abortion. Physical nature is known to be endlessly mutable. Thus when we calculate in this way - so also does material nature - thus we can see the increase of sexual diseases [physical and otherwise] as a 'natural consequence' of sex - instead of the begetting of children. That said - we have to see that the base matter is the same for all of us - man or woman and even irrespective of gay or straight - the matter is the same - we are eternal souls - that are not any of these designations - that the choice to build so much around this bodily function - is so much illusion. Forgive this very simple crude example - we can look at it like this – sex like urination - is a bodily function – do we ‘build a life’ around that bodily function? No. Heterosexuality is not looked upon as an aberration – and yet - it is an aberration - for the eternal unchanging soul - as the soul is neither straight nor gay! We must consider too that for one who has heterosexual urges – the subtle sexual identity illusion may be even harder to overcome - as one [and society in general] doesn’t see sexual urges in general and heterosexual urges in particular as unnatural – where for one who has no attraction for the opposite sex [and thus no desire to produce children] - it may become easier to see this over-all unnatural point about sex – if they can see the homosexual urge as unnatural - as the last 'normal' snare of maya - as another calculation - where sex life is concerned. We tend to ignore that maya is working on us – presenting our minds - with anything [psychological and emotional] that we might accept – to just accept our illusory identity of body and just forget God and who we really are – and as far as sex goes - that’s the greatest allurement there is. As for Vedic literatures and sexuality – you’ll find what I’ve said here is quite the logical. It’s not that homosexuality is a sin and that God hates anyone who is thus orientated – it’s much broader than that – sex is all about a world of phantasmagorias and our particular designations and dispositions in interacting within this world. God hates our sins - only because they make us forget Him - sex for sense gratification - is sex - straight or gay. Unless one uses sex as perscribed - to beget children - there shall be all sorts of psycological emotional and physical results and sufferings connected to it. When we give these things a serious thought we must see them outside our attachments to them. As the Lord says - we need a balance: He who does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present, nor longs for them when they disappear; who is seated like one unconcerned, being situated beyond these material reactions of the modes of nature, who remains firm, knowing that the modes alone are active... [bG 14.22-25] For those molding their lives to please God - it is natural that one might want to reduce these attachments - and thus check the ill results to this issue as far as possible. For one who worships Me, giving up all his activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, who has fixed his mind upon Me, O son of Prtha, for him I am the swift deliverer… [bG 12.6-7] If one wishes to remain within bodily consciousness then they are not even going to have read all this posting? [hint hint] So as this is sounding like a long [bad] lecture now I think its time to sign off this posting…. BDM ---- As a last side note: ...development of conjugal love for Krsna is not manifested in women only. The material body has nothing to do with spiritual loving affairs. A woman may develop an attitude for becoming a friend of Krsna, and, similarly, a man may develop the feature of becoming a gopi in Vrndavana. How a devotee in the form of a man can desire to become a gopi is stated in the Padma Purana as follows: In days gone by there were many sages in Dandakaranya. Dandakaranya is the name of the forest where Lord Ramacandra lived after being banished by His father for fourteen years. At that time there were many advanced sages who were captivated by the beauty of Lord Ramacandra and who desired to become women in order to embrace the Lord. Later on, these sages appeared in Goloka Vrndavana when Krsna advented Himself there, and they were born as gopis, or girl friends of Krsna. In this way they attained the perfection of spiritual life. The story of the sages of Dandakaranya can be explained as follows. When Lord Ramacandra was residing in Dandakaranya, the sages who were engaged in devotional service there became attracted by His beauty and immediately thought of the gopis at Vrndavana, who enjoyed conjugal loving affection with Krsna. In this instance it is clear that the sages of Dandakaranya desired conjugal love in the manner of the gopis, although they were well aware of the Supreme Lord as both Krsna and Lord Ramacandra. They knew that although Ramacandra was an ideal king and could not accept more than one wife, Lord Krsna, being the full-fledged Personality of Godhead, could fulfill the desires of all of them in Vrndavana. These sages also concluded that the form of Lord Krsna is more attractive than that of Lord Ramacandra, and so they prayed to become gopis in their future lives to be associated with Krsna. Lord Ramacandra remained silent, and His silence shows that He accepted the prayers of the sages. Thus they were blessed by Lord Ramacandra to have association with Lord Krsna in their future lives. As a result of this benediction, they all took birth as women in the wombs of gopis at Gokula... [The Nectar of Devotion, Ch. 16] So that would appear to be an interesting narration. I think that it speaks for itself on these issues - however - this 'mood' does have its perverted expression in those 'men' who dress as 'gopis' and call themselves such. These are a version of 'drag queens' - and from what I've read - they may beset a wedding for instance and - to make them go away - they must be given alms - or they'll make a further disturbance - in one way or another. Obviously - these expressions are not what is being referred to here in this narration. But it does go to show an important point. So for all those macho-men who are so proud of their own man-body - beware - you too may become more attracted to Krishna and His Form - than you think! We can see another interesting narration in Srimad Bhagavatam Canto Nine chapter one. In this chapter we see the narration of King Sudyumna - who was born as a girl - then transformed into a boy - then the boy grows into a man and - he later with his ministers - becomes a woman - by the entering of a certain forest. We are told that it was - "by the grace of Lord Siva, Sudyumna received the benediction that he would live one month as a woman and one month as a man" - there of course was a special purpose behind this. So as we can see from these two examples - this issue is broader than one might think. I should mention that the point often advanced against gay people from the Bhagavatam is the narration where Brahma produced some sons and they went after after him to molest him and he had to take shelter of Lord Vishnu for protection. What we are being warned of here is incest and molestation - clearly that is the issue. Of course such activities are demonic for anyone who thus engages in them. Of course all through Prabhupada's Vani we read examples of this and that and it is important to see the over-all reality of the message. We must see that Prabhupada is as terse with so-called straight people about sex - as he is with gay people - when it involves the cracking of their false ego's - where it involves setting-out the same standards - for all to measure-up to to get out of this place... I like this letter he wrote to "name withheld" on December 17, 1972: Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated November 30th, 1972, wherein I am so shocked to hear from you that you have left your good wife for some time to have sex-life with another girl, who is also a devotee, and that she is now pregnant with your child. That is most disturbing to me. But I know that all big leaders are falling victim to sex-life. So let her live in New York and you live in Paris with your wife, what can be done? But you should not ever see or correspond in any way with her again. That will be the worst example. If you are leader, how you can do these things? If someone will have her, she may get herself married and be happy in Krsna consciousness--I do not want that she shall go away from shame. But you must have nothing more to do with her. Just like [another devotee] has done. He was like the sifter, full of holes, and he was finding fault only in others: Oh, just see that needle, he has got a hole. Now he has made one girl pregnant and they were found out, so he has left me as my personal servant. That is the common practice: full of holes, yet they are accusing others, "Oh! He has got one hole! Our business is to raise ourselves to the highest status of life as preachers of Krsna's message, and one should behave himself rigidly, then he should instruct others. Two things: Be himself exemplary, then teach others to be exemplary. If one has not come to that high standard, he cannot judge or criticize others. There is one saying from Bible: 'Judge not, lest ye be judged.' So how we can preach unless we are able to make judgements? That will not be possible. Only those who are above suspicion can judge others. One must himself act in such a way that he is always above suspicion. Then he can judge, then he can preach. But now you have no power to instruct. One who is not following himself, how he can instruct others? If you are repentant, that's all right. You have got your wife, so if you are sexually inclined therefore you should always be with your wife. You are repenting, so Krsna will excuse you. But never do this again. Rather you should stop sex-life altogether, make this your austerity. Do not eat nicely, chant always sixteen rounds, and pray to Krsna to excuse you for your great offense. You are one of the senior devotees, therefore if you behave like that then the whole Society will be at risk. By their nature, gestures, dress, women are lusty--that is their habit. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that when a woman comes to serve you, you must be very careful, especially for sannyasis and brahmacaries." ACBS We should also think that for a woman it's the same - there is one nice story I once read - about an ashram - that was being visited by one nice woman - who was seeking enlightenment - so in any case - when she came to the ashram the men who were living there complained to their leader - the head of the hermitage - that she was serving as a distraction for them - that she was agitating their senses - they wanted her to go away. So their leader told them that they aught not be so petty as there was only one woman to distract them - but there were all these men - to distract the one woman! If she could tolerate that and try to control her mind - why couldn't they? So let's not forget that we may all be a source of bondage for each other or we can be a source of liberation. There is this nice verse within the Bible in this regard - about being good association for one another: It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [do] any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. [Romans 14.21] We must not do anything as a bad example? BDM http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/hare-krishna-discussions/16705-same-sex-realtionships-demonic-5.html

Nice thread!