yasodanandana

However, in my humble observation, in order for that dream to become a reality, we first have to develop a class of pure Vaishnavas, •••in my opinion you are identifying the cathegory "pure vaishnava" with the brahmana social status, that is a materalist (take it for discussion, i do not want to offend you in any way) view of the matter. Bhagavad gita teachs to us that the purity is in the heart and not in the external activity.. , to preach, just as Srila Prabhupada was instructed to preach by his own Spiritual Master, •••a preacher is an acharya.. one who shows the example, so this is the main preaching not the fact that one becomes a brahmana or that he gives many classes, speeches.. and so on Srila Prabhupada and srila bhaktisiddhanta are preaching the bhakti, and bhakti is independent from the social status and the external activities of the bhakta there's not to make confusion between the preaching of the pure devotee and an emergency period... prabhupada came in the west for a few years and surely he had to twist the svadharma of many disciples to build a complete ecclesistical system with temples, brahmana, monks, preachers (in the traditional priestly way), sannyasis and so on to show it to the future generation.. but the krsna consciousness movement cannot live eternally in emergency, we have seen it.. so the answer (not mine.. ir is already given by the masters) is varnashram...... as arjuna did, we have not to change our external way of life, we have to change internally and devote ourselves and our activities fruits to krishna even though at first Srila Prabhupada was thinking that the message of Mahaprabhu would not be accepted unless the political situation in India was first straightened out ••••do not interprete the thoughts of the acharya as a path from ignorance to comprehension as he would be a common man... these are lilas, not ordinary human activities. if we want to learn something from these lilas we have to understand that there's not any real improvement of the social, political, personal situation if there's no bhakti inside the heart of the leaders and the people. The problem with gandhi, as prabhupada said in the famous letter to him, was that he had to make a spiritual revolution along the material one to have effective results. Prabhupada in the letter does not say "stop your activities and be a priest or monk", he says "come to me some months i will teach you bhagavad gita then you will use your position to make a spiritual revolution" exactly like krsna with arjuna... "trasform your karma in karma(bhakti)yoga do not attempt to change it"

" They are. At the end only the PURE DEVOTION and LOVE for God counts. " •••yes, but the dressing of devotional clothes or the wearing or the tilak has to be viewed as an act of devotion to krsna and the spiritual master we have not to be extreme in this matter, wearing vaishnava clothes it is neither indispensable nor maya!! one has not to be fanatic in wearing and in non wearing

Does this mean that all that are not on Krishnaloka have never gotten as far as to Krishnaloka? •••yes (we come from the spiritual world, but from a zone of existence/consciousness called tatasta (marginal) Is it that when one reaches Krishnaloka, all he cares about is Krishna, Krishna, and Krishna and nothing else, thus never falling down again? •••yes When Krishna destroys this cosmic manifestation, what happens to the living entities living within it? •••the single living entities became, for some time, unmanifested... then, when the universe is created they continue their karma path A great coincidance with this is that Srila Prabhupada was born in 1896, just about in time to start the Golden Age. •••the golden age starts with the advent of the golden avatara sri chaitanya mahaprabhu in 1496 Does this mean that there will be no good in this universe after the 10,000 year period? •••yes, almost... krishna never leaves the world wthout bhakti, without vaishnavas, but it willl be almost impossible to find them Seriously, when people say that they can not make it to Krishna in this birth, they need to do some serious thinking. •••oh yes.. krsna does not want us to waste the birth in a human form, it is very rare... but it can be also extremely difficult to go back to godhead in the same life when we start to practice krsna consciousness the question about not thinking that one can reach Krishna in this age: when one thinks this, he or she does not try their best to reach Krishna •••you have to understand when a devotee sayis it because he's humble and when he says it because he's lazy... or when he's "mixed" Try your best to get to Krishnaloka as soon as possible. •••please, you are a vaishnava, pray krishna to give me the necessary devotion And when Krishna says to Arjuna, "My devotees are never vanquished." what does he mean? that no bad thing can happen to his devotees, or that his devotees never die, or his devotees never fall down? •••everything you said falls under this "law" ... a devotee (real, pure, fully realized, uttama adhikari) is protected under all the aspects

it is very difficult... you have to study the vastu shastra.. everything from how to choose and "prepare" the land to wich colours, symbols, decoration have to be done to properly welcome the deity are discussed extremely scientific, complex and difficult .. a kind of sadhana in itself, a meditation on the coming of god in the earth

yes, you are serving srila prabhupada and ultimately the supreme guru, paramatma, krishna because following these basic moral instructions you are qualifying yourself to be one day eligible for the pure devotional service. Chant a fixed number of hare krishna mahamantra every day, pray krsna to send you a bona fide vaishnava spirtual master... and many thanks, you are really saving the world .. me included.. the mad cow disease in your case is a little miracle of sri krsna and the demonstration that for a vaishnava nothing is inauspicious and everything turns to be a benediction for performing devotional service

it is not enough... the name is also empowered by the devotee... to say "jaya krsna" has an effect on our consciousness, to say "jaya krsna das kaviraja goswami", the writer of sri chaitanya charitamrita, have another effect because we are evoking this particular devotee not only the krsna names in his name. A pure vaishnava is a shaktiavesha manifestation of god, krishna gives to the name of the devotee a power that is non different from the power of the name of krsna himself.. (exactly like with the murti or picture) in many saint places there's also"nama samadhis", little temples where the name of a pure devotee, written in devanagari, is worshipped exactly like the (regular) samadhi, the place where the body or the ashes are buried, or the puspa samadhi, the place where there's the garland worn by the devotee at the moment of leaving the planet the power of the vaishnava name has a direct source in the devotee himself.. of course the devotee derives his power from krsna to say "jaya" to the name of the devotees has also a great effect in wiping away our enviousness... it is very easy to recognize the greatness of god, so "jay krsna", "jay govinda", "jay bhagavan" is relatively easy to say.. but when we say "jay krsna das", "jay govinda dasi", "jay gurudeva" it is more difficult for us and very effective, because illusion says to us that they, apparently looking as common humans, are useless to worship and pray... : "they're human like you, subjected to error, demons, illuded like you.. why jaya?", but we know more than this and we say jaya to the vaishnavas

you make many assumptions and read way to much into things,it is very simple but by making things complicated •••really i am exposing with a very strange english my comprehension on the subject... i have no other interest, i do not make any assumption... you are saying that i want to make a vishnutattva of the guru, thing that i do not say... but no problem trying to turn the acharya into some kind of mystical equivalent of Vishnu tattva •••why? you ask why offer worship to a murti or picture of the Guru if the Guru is not there ? Because that is the process of Sadhana Bhakti, you perform regulated forms of worship and by that process your consciousness becomes purified from material vision. ••••no... in vaishnavism we do "real" things... if we worship something this has be god or his representative, so if we worship the murti of the guru, we are worshiping the guru... of course the guru comes in the murti not for his power but because of krsna's power... the purification is there because there's the real thing, otherwise no purification other then the ability to give out the words of God, the acharya is not aware of anything when he leaves •••this is your speculation,as we see in the life of many devotees a vaishnava can live multiple realities... prabhupada, gaura govinda maharaja say many times that they are ever feeling the presence of their spiritual master, so the acharya, the guru, the vaishnava has a VANI aspect that gives his presence to us even if with the body he's away.. in another part of the world or in the spiritual world what gives the exact boundaries to the guru tattva is the word SHAKTIAVESHA guru is not god, he takes his powers (shakti) from krsna guru is not a common human, he is empowered by the shakti of krsna so there's two deviations one who states that the guru is a common man, one who states that the guru is god and that the power is in the deified guru and not in the fact that he's representing the caitya guru for the purpose of preaching, This leads to many offences, first of all not recognizing the presence of the original chaitya guru in other vaishnavas. So, in my opinion, you believe to fight in me the deviation of the deification of the guru, but it is not so.. even if my english is very bad i have many times explained the concept of "shaktiavesha avatara", empowered by krsna for a special purpose... preaching and your concept of symbolic in vaishnavsm for me is totally out of my comprehension... we worship the real thing, not that we worship some false idols showing to lord that we are devotees so we purify ourselves... yes, we do it, but when we worship the murti of god, we are worshiping god, when we worship the murti of the guru, we are worshiping the guru... the same when we chant the name of the devotee in the kirtan (jaya prabhupada.. jaya gurudeva... jaya prahlada maharaja... jaya hanuman...), the same when we offer food to the picture of the spiritual master... he accepts, he sees, he bless from the picture and he sees our heart because he's empowered by paramatma.. to see a murti and to believe that under this murti there's not a reality but a concept is a buddhist theory... in the temples we see the goddess tara and we are explained that there's not a person in the murti, but same concept of detachment from the matter and so on... but this is not vaishnava

"We don't worship the devotee apart from his relationship with Krsna" •••yes.. we worship devotees because they bring to us krishna, otherwise why worship?

the pure devotee is empowered by krsna, so also his name is divine and brings ourselves to krsna.. exactly like the murti or the photo of the devotee and the spiritual master... krsna is very pleased when you pray the name of his devotee

"Prabhupada: That is not the... Then you do not understand. Acarya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is acarya." •••••yes... pefect because he's doing the business(shakti.. another meaning is "purpose") given by god, not because he's god the same for omniscient Prabhupada: Because material viewpoint. The viewpoint is wrong; therefore you find discrepancies. ••••so to see the guru as imperfect is to have a material vision of the guru, a wrong vision... guru is perfect

The diksa or siksa Guru is consdered as good as God becasue God is acting through,not that the diksa or siksa guru has the abilties of God, •••it is exactly what i said... the spiritual master is good as god because he's empowered not because his potency comes from he himself.. so he's empowered by god and he has the powers of god in doing his devotional service. There's a famous conversation of prabhupada when a disciple asked "why bhaktivinoda takura has not completed the job to preach krsna consciousness to the whole world?", prabhupada answers "he's omnipotent, he's a vaishnava, he could convert the whole world.. but for his mercy he leave some work for us, to share some glory and service with him" i remember exactly the word OMNIPOTENT god is omnscient,not the devotee •••when we say that devotee sees present paste and future it is another way to say that he's omniscient... the only constitutional difference from god is that the vaishnava has his powers by god, god has his powers from himself No, the jiva is not omnipresent and has no ability to be conscious of everything you do •••yes for the jiva... not for the jiva empowered by god, you can pray spiritual master, you can pray devotees of parampara', prabhupada, you can worship their murtis, photos, paintings. why we put the picture of spiritual master and parampara' in the altar if they cannot listen or see our service? they're not symbols, they're the real thing You take on a guru for guidance,He/She is representing God,not that the diksa or siksa guru is the same as God •••good as god, empowered, shakiavesha.. not god... transparent medium as you said.. thru guru you see krsna, he has not his own shaktis, he has the krsna shakti Paramatma is in your heart,no other being is omnipresent, •••yes.. guru is empowered by paramatma, empowered (shaktiavesha) means that paramatma gives his powers (shakti)... so guru sees your heart by krsna shakti, very easy.. he's not god, but he's enpowered by him to see your heart exactly like the paramatma only God is cognizant of these things and only God is accepting the offering. •••no, there's anything symbolic in the spiritual realm... if i offer to guru, if i pray guru, guru accepts directly the offerings and prayers. It is not so difficult to find, open the lilamrita and you will find many examples of the omniscience of srila prabhupada, how many disciples feel his presence VANI even if he's not there phisically. In this way you are negating the existence of VANI. Who gives to a soul the power to be with the disciple even if he's phisically thousand kilometers away? krsna... this is called VANI association.. so when you offer to gurudeva you have his direct association via the shakti given to him by balarama, paramatma here you contradict your previous statement, •••please reread my messages and kindly explain my contradiction.. i do not see it, but maybe i am wrong only god is omnitpotent,only god is able to see in your heart(mind). •••but god gives powers to the masters, krsna enters in the murti for his internal potency, guru enters in the murti because krsna gives him the power to do it.. a murti of prabhupada is the real prabhupada or a symbol, an idol? do he sees us, hear us, receives our devotion when we offer him the food or not? my answer is that the murti of prabhupada is prabhupada as the murti of krsna is krsna.. the same with the photo or picture.. So the vaishnava is omnipotent deriving his omnipotence by god jiva is not and never wil be like God. •••no one can become god... but spiritual master is good as god, like god, empowered by god, manifestation of god because god wants it and give him his powers.. shakti wrong again, Sadhana bhakti is full of rituals, those rituals are there for purification, •••yes but the rituals are purifying because they are real, not allegoric or symbolic, how can a ritual purify me if there's not the real thing present? who is purifying me? the illusion that the master is present in the murti? but illusion is not purifying ... a photo of the guru is the guru, a statue of krsna is krsna, a puja to krsna is a real offering not a symbol, if you offer flowers, food, prayers you are really offering. The murti is not symbolic, is krsna, chanting is not symbolic .. he's krsna bhagavan.. prabhupada's murti, bhaktisiddhanta's murti and photos are not symbols, they are real... otherwise the mayavadis and impersonalists are right saying that these things are for ignorants that still do not understand the impersonal nature of divinity There is a big difference between a vaisnava acting as diksa or siksa and between the supreme lord, •••the difference is that krsna is THE POWER and guru is THE EMPOWERED srila prabhupada. There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others. •••yes.. of course... this is the omnipotency... the phisical guru has the powers of god because he's the representative of the original chaitya guru, not because he's himself god... i am saying it from the beginning and srila prabhupada does not contradicts me.. krsna is sat cit ananda for his powers, guru is sat cit ananda because krsna acting thru him gives him the powers guru is not a dress, a masque, krsna is not entering in him as a phantom a demon and guru is inconscious when he does his service.. so prabhupada hears your prayers, has his feet touched when you touch the murti in the temple, receives the food when you offer.. he's real, shaktiavesha avatara of paramatma, not a symbol or an idol where there's hidden the paramatma like a ghost literaly the diksa or siksa Guru is not the same as God, symbolicaly he is as Good as God because God is acting through Him, •••yes.. true.. acting thru him is that he receives the shakti from god to act as his avatara, representative... not symbolically but really.. you never find this concept of "symbolically" in the guru tattva. Impersonalists are saying that guru and krsna are a symbol of the absolute one. Symbol is an object with no intrinsecal nature.. that will only lead you to deify a human •••definitely no... guru has powers given by god, i do not make any attempt to say that he's god, not so difficut neither so subtle is you expect the devotee/guru to be some kind of supernatural omniscient,omnipotent,Vishu tattva, •••i am not saying that he's vishnu tattva.. otherwise i'd not call shaktiavesha avatara he's supernatural because he is beyond the matter and the human nature (for the god's grace).. and in the same way he can do everything in the service of god, this is his omni(=all) potence(=power) His empowerment is the ability to speak for God,nothing more. •••there's much more... or we can say that his speaking of god comes from his empowering, otherwise there's not real speaking of god shaktiavesha avatara of god, not god... very simple

my three euros? 1)if one pronunces RAMA.. the sound RAM is included 2)prabhupada said specifically that the RAMA (or RAM) in mahamantra is to be intended as the name of balarama or ramachandra.. no difference 3)sri balarama is an expansion of balarama who is the direct source of all the avataras... included sri ramachandra happy chanting

do you think that your diksa or siksa guru is watching over you at all times ? •••yes, the guru is a manifestation of the paramatma and he's empowered by krsna to see in the heart of the disciple.. vaishnavas are omnipotent That they or He is aware of you as you prepare food ? •••of course, otherwise why to take another conditioned human as a master? That they are aware of your offering ? •••definitely yes, sri guru is in the heart, in the murti, in the foto... he's a shaktiavesha avatara, he has the shakti by krsna to do this God is the only all pervading consciousness, Being present in your heart only God is conscious of your activities and mood,as you prepare and offer food only God is cognizant of these things and only God is accepting the offering. •••yes.. and being the pure vaishnava in his task to act as a master a manifestation of god, god's vision and vaishnava's vision are non different.. so god is CIT, conscious, and the vaishnava is also CIT The concept of offering to the Guru is a ritual to include Krsna's devotees in the offering, ••definitely NO.... read this: yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto 'pi dhyayan stuvams tasya yasas tri-sandhyam vande guroh sri-caranaravindam By the mercy of the spiritual master one receives the benediction of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement. ........ ------ 4 krsna se tomara, krsna dite paro, tomara sakati ache ami to' kangala, 'krsna 'krsna 'boli', dhai tava pache pache 4) Krsna is yours; you have the power to give Him to me. I am simply running behind you shouting, "Krsna! Krsna!" ------ 1 sri-guru-carana-padma, kevala-bhakati-sadma, bando mui savadhana mate jahara prasade bhai, e bhava toriya jai, krsna-prapti hoy jaha ha'to The lotus feet of our spiritual master are the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service. I bow to his lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By his grace one can cross the ocean of material suffering and obtain the mercy of Krsna. ---- so our service is always directed to the spiritual master, and without him there's no service at all in this way food offered to the Guru is done in a ritualistic way as a process of purification for the practitioner •••yes.. but also because he's the only link to krsna, we cannot make direct service, no one make direct service to krsna, only sri radhe who is the "servant" aspect of god... and the spiritual master is the representative of the mercy of srimati radharani in this role of direct servant of krsna. So we essentially serve gurudeva, he offer our service to krsna. When we bow before deities, when we chant hare krishna we recite the obeisances "nama om vishupadaya..." because he's the link to chaitanya and panchatattva ("jaya sri krsna chaitanya, prabhu nityananda..") then to krsna (hare krishna hare krishna...). No hare krishna without guru, no prasadam without guru, no mercy without guru... he's not a marginal, ritual thing.. he's essential the Guru is not an all pervading being able to receive that offering, •••he's pervading because of empowering by krsna, hes saktiavesha avatara, chatya guru manifestated in a human form... he's conscious it is done to instill devotion to Krsna's devotees who are more dear to Krsna then Himself. •••yes, for this purpose and for many other things as explained... in krsna consciousness nothing is ritual or formal, everything is essential, if you offer an apple before the picture of the spiritual master you are offering to him, otherwise why this farce? a spirtual master is not an assistant, hes "janme janme prabhu.." our lord life after life "You always have a connection to the transcendence," ••••yes.. through the paramatma.. paramatma direct and paramatma in guru form is the same non different thing... otherwise who's the guru?

http://www.iskcon.it/prabhupadadesh/

" have you ever lived together with a person that mocks KC, that makes you feel bad about who and what you are ?" •••••ehem... yes.. i lived with my parents 'til 24 years.. when i went living in the temple they sended to me some DEPROGRAMMERS to kidnap me... and they did it!! so i understand what you are saying, that there's a point (extremely rare and dangerous) where's better not to make compromises and maybe to stop living with people, family and so on... i know also that we are speaking without knowing well the circumstances... but my opinion remains that a devotee is one who chants regularly the holy name.. in this respect hearing bhajans is not ESSENTIAL and even, IN COMPARISON, respecting regulative principles or other regulations. in my experience of knowing devotees from 20 years i ofteen see these battles for (in an hostile family) keeping deities, listening devotional recordings, putting pictures in the wall, wearing tilak, coming out dressed in dhoti or sari for going to sunday feast and so on, lighting incenses, stopping sex with the husband/wife, quarrelling for cola, coffee, tea, mushrooms, onions, garlic and so on... i see these battles ending after some months with the practitioneer stopping to chant hare krishna and associating with vaishnavas with the families in a more demoniac attitude and with a more bad relationship with the poor silly fellow plagiarized for a while by the harekrishna sect .. and more often i see the opposite with people not shocking the family and humbly chanting hare krishna for years in a family who was keeping all the "karmi" behaviour... there's often a moment when the "demons" (inspired by krsna who is living in their house in the form of chanting) come to the temple, gradually they make friends with devotees, gradually they became devotees maybe stronger of the one who brought them... we have had these families for karma... we have responsabilities , they're not simply and obstacle. (of course i am simply expressing my ideas on the subject not objecting to you)

if you have a different view on these subject please explain it, otherwise it is natural for people who love god to express their opinion when they see rascals usurping His name and cheating others with it... imagine if i use your identity to go around and make silly things and saying nonsenses.. will you be happy? will your family and friends be happy of it? they say to be god and it is only a different innocent view?

we have to be practical.... someone is living in environments where listening devotional music is simply not possible or it is like a declaration of war for the people surrounding him and if we make this war with relatives, friends, wifes, husbands, work colleagues it becomes impossible to bring them in a future in krsna consciousness and maybe these quarrels make our mind less controlled and peaceful for the purpose to chant attentively the hare krishna mahamantra so chanting is essential... hearing recorded bhajans, in comparison, is marginal or even, in some circumstances, as i said above, harmful for chanting... very simple (at the moment of initiation one is requested to chant rounds not to listen cassettes or cds) •••••••• "I would say that in this time and age listening to bhajans is something that we should do. " me too!!!... but we cannot make wars for it, otherwise it is bad for chanting, that's much more important and essential

(yasoda nandana is krishna, it is not a female name) (do you know the song "yasomati nandana?"(nama kirtana)) (hare krishna!!) (purnima is also a name of radharani.. krsna calls her joking in this way : "you have a face so fat that you seem the full moon!!")

hare krishna, happy krishna and happy christmas to all assembled devotees of this audarya family, to your godbrothers and guru maharajas.. a special thanks to the moderators.. please bless me to have for all my life the association of you vaishnavas devotees of bhagavan sri krishna tanti auguri di buon natale a tutti!!! (from yasoda nandana dasa and my wife purnima devi dasi)

i have read you with great pleasure... i agree completely, many thanks

in the gita and in the scriptures there's listed the qualities of god, the qualities of representatives of god, saints, devas... and asuras. 1)what if we recognize one of these persons basing our judgement on the qualities listed by the shastra? 2)otherwise.. why gita teachs these features, this "investigation method", this meter of judgement if the only concern is if this devotee, avatara, demon and so is listed in the vedas? 3)the vedic religions (now included in "hinduism") are based on the relationship guru-disciple.... if a bona fide guru says something, it is very difficult to avoid his opinion for the sake of the freedom of thinking. So, discussing with non prabhupada followers, it is not so good to say : "jesus is god because prabhupada says it.... and you shut up!!" ... but it is also a big problem if the one who think different from the pure devotee do not feel it as a problem and do not examinates his theories and beliefs after receiving these important news.. A: "the X guru says that...." B: "who cares?" it is against the principle of religion.... or B demonstrates that X guru is a fake or that A have not read or listened well

according to this time, this place and this circumstance definitely YES!! if one can chant his mahamantra rounds keeping peace in the family with the hope, sooner or later, to bring everyone to krsna consciousness with his behaviour and example, there's no need to put on quarrels for playing bhajan, lighting incense and so on. chanting hare krishna contains all the practices of krsna consciousness... sravanam (=hearing bjakan) is surely included, chanting is a bhajan!!

many thanks... very useful

He did not say any level could be guru, only the most advanced. ••••yeas i agree, i would add "only the uttama adhikari"... if there's no uttama adhikari "in the house" the most advanced bring the new devotees to uttama adhikaris to take shelter... chant hare krsna and be happy For a debateaholic, that's an interesting quote. Try the happy part. Hey, no offese intended, just an observation I've made. •••••••yes, it is also linked to these offences (imho): 2) To consider the names of demigods like Lord Siva or Lord Brahmä to be equal to, or independent of, the name of Lord ViSnu 5) To consider the glories of chanting Hare Krsna to be imagination. 8) To consider the chanting of Hare Krsna as one of the auspicious ritualistic activities which are offered in the Vedas as fruitive activities (karma-kanda). 10) To not have complete faith in the chanting of the holy names and to maintain material attachments, even after understanding so many instructions on this matter. so one has to be happy because he has found the most powerful only medicine for his diseases

"Yasoda, you sound very wise" ••••••••••••••••••••• thanks prabhu, you are very kind, i like only to talk with devotees, i do not know if i am wise, maybe in theory but the practice is weak... (1961...)