yasodanandana

"Some people just cannot bear to imagine that God can be formless and formless 'Niraakaar' Bhakti is possible." --- no, it is wrong, the existence of a formless and omnipervasive absolute, it is not only possible, it is necessary.. because it is not possible that god does not pervades and permeates everything. The problem is when an "advaitist" say that this is the only true manifestation of the absolute and the "personal" ones are only produced by maya to give a worshipable idol to the ignorant people. so, impersonal god (brahman) exist and he's necessary, we cannot imagine that god is not "everything", if anything is missing, even a micron (like the christians who say that there's a god's reign and a satan's reign), brahman is not brahman, god is not god etc.. but, if we conditioned and created souls are persons, god has to have also the personal aspect, and there's no logic in believing that this aspect is illusory.. so god as brahman is real god as paramatma is real god as bhagavan is real so god can be formless, but he can be also with a form as krishna, vamana, narasimha etc. the problem comes out if we believe that form means only human form, but there's also a divine form (sat cit ananda vigraha)... or, if we have form in the relative world, why the absolute one is missing? and another problem: if there's not the individuality, if brahman and merging are the ultimate and only reality, how can we love (bhakti) if you take away the loved and the lovers? please, if you want, discuss.. do not spend your time saying "ohhh, how they are ignorant and intolerant!!".. if your idea is right and strong, surely you will help many people, me included.. India is very famous for big philosophers, debates, eloquency... the dogmatic and "faith" approach is more western

for conditioned people there's difference between name and the real person.. if you call "john" or "bob" the friends that have that name will not be there with you. But God is omnipotent, there's not "internal" and "external", "substance" and "appearance" for him.. so there's not "name" and "person" for god.. he's not different from his name.. god has infinite names in all the religious traditions... jahveh= existence allah= the highest buddah= the spiritually enlightened etc. a name defines a quality, and god has all the qualities at the highest quantity... and who has all the qualities (beauty, power, mercy etc.) is the "all attractive" so krsna means : the All Attractive hare is the loving energy of god, or Srimati Radharani, we cannot love god if he does not give his mercy to us rama is the one who is the source of the spiritual happiness and bliss.. all these 3 names are divine if we chant hare, krishna, rama we are in the presence of hare, krishna and rama even if we are conditioned and we believe to chant ordinary material sounds.. to get out from this conditionament and see krishna in person, we have to practice this chanting on regular basis with deep faith

in my opinion for first you have to serve krishna as a practising vaishnava, accepting a spiritual master, chanting hare krishna, taking initiation and so on.. then, spontaneously, when you will be advanced, you will rediscover your role in the spiritual world. We have to start from the beginning....

"He is an avatar..." yes.. the spiritual master is empowered by krsna to accomplish his duties.. but he's not god so prabhupada is a shaktiavesha avatara, an individual (nitya siddha) soul empowered by krsna.. in this way we say that guru is an expansion of chatya guru, paramatma, and that he, as bhaktisiddhanta says, is an expansion of radharani because he represent god in his "servant" aspect (krsna is the "served" god) and because he's the transparent medium of HER love to KRSNA >>>>>>>>>>> 3 kinds of existence: Vishnu Tattva Jiva Tattva Shiva Tattva there are infinite subtleties, but yasoda mata is essentially shiva, vishnu or a jiva? prabhupada is essentially shiva, vishnu or a jiva?

"The eternal parents of kRSNa are not jiva, they have never been in TataStha." _yes prabhu... they're not tatasta, they're eternally liberated, but they're individual souls, jivas, not vishnutattva for xample also prabhupada is a jiva... but not subjected to be captured by maya so there's nitya baddha jivas and nitya siddha jivas, nitya siddhas are eternally with krishna and sometimes they come in the material world to help us, nitya baddhas are eternally with maya but sometimes, for the causeless mercy of nitya siddhas, they're elevated to the spiritual world

"For a Westerner both the terms mean the same." we are westerners, not animals!!!!

who is doing bhakti is very well aware and expert of what is impersonalism or nirguna stuff. The thing is not that one is in a bodily consciousness, so he sees god in a bodily way, no. The thing is that God has to have a body, otherwise how he can create bodies? Obviously he has not a mortal body like us, but a "satcitananda" body like we read in the song "damodarastakam": "namam isvaram satcitananda rupam... i offer my obeisances to the eternal, conscious, blissful form of the lord". actually is more bodily conscious to think that god has no body... we see mortal bodies, maya says to us that bodies are only material, and we say "if body is mortal, god has no body" and from the material point of view it is right, but it exists also a spiritual point of view: if we have bodies in the matter, we must have bodies (not mortal, but eternal) in the spirit. and... nirguna & bhakti are two words that do not go together, how can you love one who has not qualiies? wich quality attracts you (beauty, intelligence, power, humbleness, mercy..) if he has not qualities.. if you show your thoughts and theories there's nothing bad, but if you say that "saguna bhakti" is something simple for neophite practitioneers you are wrong, because these practitioneers know wery well what you are saying and they can discuss and demonstrate.. if you cannot do the same... you have not arguments, f one's advanced he has plenty of ways to convince the ignorants

i do not understand why ths commentary of srila sridhara maharaja is against the fact that yasomati and nanda maharaja are jivas we can have 3 kinds of existence: vishnu tattva... and they are not god shiva tattva... and they are not shiva jiva tattva.... and they are eternally liberated jivas associated with sri krsna, inhabitants of the spiritual world. jiva does not means "conditionated"

yasoda mata and nanda maharaja are nitya siddha, they are jiva tattva but eternally krsna conscious

1)if you have not a standard daily schedule of offerings, pujas etc... there's no problem.. close tha altar and go 2)if you have a standard, give them to another brahmin 3)in emergency you can bring with you the photo and adore the photo... also in the mind if you have no paraphernalia

yes, god is "feature-less" or "without quality" from a material point of view... he's not subjected to death or illusion.. and he surely pervades all the universe and sustain every existence... but he's also a person, he can have a form and he can go in a place.. all these features and qualities are "sat, cit , ananda" not material so god is nirguna if we compare him to an ordinary conditioned person, but he's "gunagrahi"(full of qualities) if we see him in his original spiritual reality bhagavan = he who possesses all the opulences krsna = the all attractive (because he possess infinite attractive qualities) ............ this is the reason why vaishnavas see with suspect the philosophies where the "nirguna" or "impersonal" or "all pervasive" feature of god is considered the supreme one.... how can he, without personality, create us with personality... how can he give what he have not?

the tolerance is in appreciating the effort of people who is trying to know something in religion and spirituality, like you, me, some or all followers of brahmakumaris, baha'i, ananda marga, sai baba etc. the tolerance is appreciating the persons, but if the philosopy is illogic and atheistic, we have to call it with his name.. (and there's no problem because we are not in the middle of the road but in a "specialistic" forum a brahmakumari follower can surely develope more good qualities than me (very easy) and he will have a better next life than mine... but the philosophy in itself is cheap and atheist, more similar to american new age than anything vedic traditional, shankaracharya's advaita and so it is a frog's well also to think also that everything is the same (ehem... i take as an honour to be called "iskcon people", and in my heart i consider me "iskcon people"... but i am not initiated by an "official" iskcon master) why not explain why you think that my "iskconist" judgement is wrong? following a reasoning maybe i can change my idea, thing that i want not to do only to show some sort of false ecumenism

when we speak about rules and standards we have to consider that in the material world these rules are given to make easy, for some privileged class of men, to exploit some unfortunate people... so, in this world, the morality is almost an instrument of oppression in the hand of a minority god, pure devotees, saints, gurudeva are not like that, when they say "he's a rascal.. he's demoniac.. he's a subhuman" they say like with unlimited love with the purpose to bring the unfortunate souls back to godhead... we are in kali yuga kali yuga is "mixing", nothing is entirely good, nor entirely bad... and no one is a real male or a real female. the first symptom of the mixing of sex is that women and men have the same social place, both go to work, both are caring for children, sometimes the man is richer than wife, sometimes the opposite. sometimes the woman is more mature and she's leading the family, sometimes she's older, sometimes the wife is more spiritually advanced than the husband, women pragmatic like a soldier and men poetic, idealist and sentimental .. and so on so we have the "big" homosexuality when individuals of the same gender have sex between them, and a "soft" homosexuality with the natural behaviours of the sexes constantly exchanging having said this, discriminations have a little place in the life of the devotees... sex is a big entanglement to this material world.. homo-sex is another entanglement added to the first making the things more complicated. hare krishna is the medicine for both complicate and simple conditionaments

"As far as I know, this number of strands according to some "rank" is a concoction of someone else." many thanks..

i accept your point of view and i appreciate your way of behaving in the temple.. the thing that make me more doubtful is that not eating sandesh because i have digestion's problem is different from not eating sandesh because i think that deities, prabhupada, gurudeva, devotees are offered violent or inappropriate food.... if there was a phenomenon of one temple ("i do not eat there because they are unclean" etc) i'd follow the concept.. but every branch of gaudya sampradaya all over the world uses milk... and prabhupada used milk everywhere so.. for me..it could be very risky for our spiritual consciousness, maybe more risky than eating meat. definitely a thing to ask to the spiritual master...

"Do any of you feel like not getting married at all due to the fact that spiritual development has made you desireless? " •••my marriage is on of the biggest advancements in krsna consciousness i have done in my life. I know personally only ten of fifteen people in this world that i am quite sure that they have left sexual desire, for the rest of us i think that marriage is necessary Also prabhupada had a wife first brahmacharya.. advance.. then grihasta

sorry for my dullness.. but i'd like to know what a vegan devote does at the prasadam hour at a sunday feast, in a home of another devotee, when he's offered some mahaprasadam at the temple or so...

SAMSARA = the repeated cycle of birth and death in the material world HINDU TRINITY=, shiva, brahma, vishnu administrating the three guna, or basic features/energies of the material world.. ignorance, passion, goodness.. they are expansion of sri krsna the supreme personality of god MOKSHA=liberation from the sufferings of the material world VEDAS=the "knowledge"... the books with all the material, ritual, religious, spiritual consciousness.. inspired by god YOGA="union" or "reunion" of the creature to the absolute CASTE SYSTEM=perversion of the natural divisions of the activities of the men: sudra=manual workers / vaisha= agriculture, commerce, / ksatrya=soldiers, politicians, police / brahmana=priests, monks, intellectuals. This division is natural in any society, the wrong in "caste system" is the belief that the social class, the caste, is trasmitted by birth and not achieved by merits and skills 4 STAGES OF LIFE=brahmacharya (student), grihasta (married householder), vanaprasta (family man/woman devoted to spirituality), sannyasi (completely renunciated and out of any material desire) PUJA=vedic ceremony of offering of items and prayers to a deity or a saint

new age... atheism

Vaishnava Aparada, Is it that you go to hell after criticizing a pure devotee? ••• yes, if he does not forgive hell is sure Is it the same result for criticizing impure devotees? •••the perfection is to consider everyone pure, and that we have not to offend anyone.. but more advanced is the person we offend, more he's dear to krsna, more we have to pay later What if someone criticizes a devotee but devotee forgives him? •••everything ends... the offence ceases to exist And if someone is criticizing a devotee for the good of the devotee (constructive criticism) does he get the same result as well? •••this is not criticism in the "aparadha" sense, this is an help.. but we have to be humble and not to feel like masters, but servants of the devotee we help Also, if there was no criticism, but the devotee thinks that it is criticism will there be punishment for the perceived criticizer? •••if we are humble we will feel guilty to have made an offence, even if unintentional. We know that we are imperfect and that we make mistakes even if we do not want to.. obviously we will not be punished for a thing we have not done. But the things remains that we have to be humble and we have to take the injustice as a krishna's mercy to smash our ego and to advance in spiritual consciousness Also, if the devotee is criticized but devotee does not recognize it as criticism , then will the criticizer suffer? •••the "criticized" devotee, if he's a realized person, he's humble... being like this he feels our offence as an help... and we suffer a lot, because he's very advanced and dear to krsna

your opinion is highly respectable, but i'd cry seeing you not taking a mahapradasam milk sweet in radha damodhara temple in vrindavan because you're vegan... or, why not, a pizza with cheese in the home or your devotee friends.. so do not cook milk at your house but take milk from other devotees... the vegetarian/vegan thing for me ends here, this is a standard that i would be not able to bear, even if i'd wish "If I ignore that effect on my conscience I feel that THEN is when the "karma" really makes me responsible. Did I make sense?" •••maybe not too much:) ... feelings come from the senses, not exactly a source of real consciousness, or surely not the only source. To be vegan or not, or if veganism is a thing to be preached to other devotees and so on, being a very important subject, not a detail, in my opinion, is a typical thing to ask to the spiritual master

imho.. a devotee who engages is harsh discussions against a vegan is very strange.. you can be vegan in your home without problem, but i think that you also have to avoid the offence of refusing prasadam made with milk if you are invited by friend devotees, mahaprasadam in the temple or from spiritual master, prasadam and maha in sacred places like vrindavana, mayapour, puri etc.. if a vegan associates prasadam with violence it is a great problem in my opinion

"What I'm really wondering about is if people have actually witnessed a successful transition through the stages of bhakti as described in madhurya kadambini for example: shraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya, nishtha, etc etc. " •••very rare, but it is possible to know them... i surely know.. you have only to ask and see your self "Maybe the reason I am asking is because I never really hear people in the Hare Krsna path ever talk about thier progress (or non-progress...) on the path" •••because there'was a lot of emphasis on the "exspansion" .. too much, in my opinion.. and not too much emphasis on inner spiritual growth (not prabhupada's fault),, things are slightly changing "Mostly I see Hare Krsna people talking about philosophy and theoretical ideas, and they seem to spend alot of time trying to refute other religions and paths" •••serious and sincere people is rare.. even among the practitioneer of a wonderful path "I have no faith in that process as described by iskcon. " •••maybe you are right.. many people think that now the thing is too "external", "institutional".. but many people think also that this risks not to be the real prabhupada's iskcon "I feel like prabhupada's books spend way too much time criticizing other paths and are full of fanatical "us vs them" statements." •••this is not my perception... i suggest to you to read more and more deeply, and to consider the spirit of an acharya like him when he criticizes others.. love not enviousness... the other thing is, imho, that maybe some iskcon members tend to speak of a prabhupada aggressive and giving "rascal" to everyone anytime... but if we get in more deeply it is possible to discover an extremely loving and merciful father of everyone.. please give another chance to srila prabhupada "Prabhupada even said that you can judge a teacher by his disciples..." •••if they are real disciples... not neophytes or deviants.. if i do not study no one can give the fault to the school "durring my sentence with-in the iskcon organization, I can't say I really ever met anyone who seemed to or talked about experiencing beyond the kanistha stage." •••it is very possible, but expect to find very rare realized persons even if you make a deeper research. Then... the message of prabhupada is the message of gaudya vaishnava sampradaya, so, not to say that in iskcon is not possible to find advanced devotees, but, if you want, consider also to expand your horizons knowing and speaking with devotees in other organizations.. maybe more indian based, with people more "into" this philosophy than us...... more devotees you know, more possible is to find pure ones... this is the spirit, not to criticize western vaishnavas my point is, that even having doubts, you are here speaking and associating with us showing a genuine and constructive interest, so please consider my suggestions to be more deep and inquisitive

"Do you really believe that your faith will become stronger, if you converse with someone who says that he or she has seen Krsna and converses with him on regular basis? " -yes.. association with real vaishnavas is the basis of the spiritual advancement... change "vaishnavas" with "spiritualists" and you will have a concept valid for all religions

"I did the hare krishna (iskcon)formula, (16 rounds, 4:30 mangal arti, 4 regs, etc etc...) for almost 10 years. So thank you, I have applied your formula. What were my "realizations" from practicing this formula." •••mmh, please do not take it as an offence, but i am sorry to say that the thing that you were expecting realizations at that stage shows that you have not completely understood the nature of the practice.. to "chant hare krishna" is basically: to be initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, to practice in a social situation that is fit for us (maybe not a temple), to have specific instructions by the guru on how the regulative principle's concept applies to us, to chant hare krishna without making offences. This is actually "chanting hare krishna".. with a special mention for the offences to vaishnavas, Otherwise there's not real chanting, it does not generate the taste for it, and without taste and motivation one goes away also after 40 years....... without speaking of offences. "Im not saying that the Vaishnava path is invalid... its just invalid for me" •••there's no vaishnava path in a sense, there's a SINGLE path for everyone of us, this is another demonstration of the lack of depth (not all your fault maybe)... everyone can be a vaishnava, but not everyone can go at the temple, shave the head, quit the social life and so on... so one has to understand more properly what is the "vaishnava path" under a real vaishnava who gives advices on personal basis.. what make a sannyasi advance, could be poison for a grihasta.. and so on "The reason I asked this question about people's realizations in the first place was because I have this doubt that anyone has really experienced Krsna" •••if you are not satisfied by neophytes like me (i can easily understand).. there's people who are not neophytes.. ask to them, why not? "I think many people who practice Hare Krsna-ism have experienced a sense of peace, and felt like they were experienceing "Krsna's presence" •••it is extremely right, achieving krsna's presence is not at all easy... but you are not onest if you judge a practice by neophytes "It just makes me doubtful doubtful doubtful..." •••it is a good thing, you have simply to resolve your doubts being more deep and asking to experts (who are not necessarily the people who, superficially, appear as experts) if the neophites are not satisfying please forgive me if , not knowing properly the language, i appear too aggressive