yasodanandana

" Ideaology that the word guru only refers to the qualified is nice, but its not whats going on." ••••prabhupada many times explains that the definition "false guru" is a paradox.. so we can use it for better understanding but this is the fact. The danger is that if we state that the word guru means anything less than "uttama adhikari" more people in future will do the old famous same mistakes To resolve the problem the way it exists, we have to talk about it the way it exists. •••••yes the way is false or true, fake or authentic, sadhus and bogus.... i do not understand why to discriminate (madyam adhikari) is not the first step to resolve problems. First to understand what is safe and what is ill..... then the cure

there's no other camps.. they're of the vaishnava camp!! you have simply to relationate on personal basis camp or not camp, if you meet me and you think that i am wrong for some aspects in following krsna consciousness, you can/must say it to me if you are sure that i will hear your suggestion. Otherwise it is an offence. 9) To instruct a faithless person about the glories of the holy name. (((((if you think that my guru, my organization, my godbrothers are bad, you can say it to me only if i have "faith" in your advices. If the result is surely a quarrel or breaking the friendship it is better to stick talking of mahamantra, srimad bhagavatam etc.)))))) the universal advice is to consider devotees as "prabhu(masters)" and to search enlightening about krsna consciousness, so avoid anything you can judge useless for your spiritual advancement and enjoy the company of vaishnavas without prejudices

Most of us struggle to be qualified for that mercy… even after 30 years. Till that mercy arrives, it's what we do that counts. ••••yes, you're right... but 10, 20, 30, 100 years waiting.. there's anything else more important to wait for? "Hare krishna.... like the genuine cry of a child calling for the mother", so we are calling so many times everyday, even if unattentively, the partecipation of krsna in our life. And, as we have learned by srila prabhupada, krsna when he comes, he comes as chatya guru manifested in the "phisical" pure vaishnava guru.. so let us intensely wait for the advent of krsna in our life As far as your term sadhu goes, I think you mean "qualified spiritual master". Just about everyone agrees Prabhupada was such a person. •••••of course, we agree, all the vaishnava authorities in the world agree I'm not suggesting there aren't people as qualified as you imply. I have not met any. But the people I have not met are infinite. •••yes.. there's not to make particular efforts, we chant hare krishna that in itself is also a calling.... we associate with devotees, to associate means basically to look for teachings and shelter, if we are sincere the devotees will give us shelter directly acting as spiritual masters or indirectly bringing us to their spiritual master. So, everything we do in the devotional path, sooner or later brings to this. Unfortunately, no has moved me the way Prabhupada did. I'm jaded, but not hopeless. ••••yes, it is not logical if all this efforts of srila prabhupada to bring us back to godhead are useless, so sri krishna, the caitya guru, manifestated in prabhupada, having shown to us the goal to achieve and the method to achieve it, is necessarily continuing his eternal mission even now incarnated in other pure vaishnavas. You want to avoid criticisms. So do I. •••••maybe it seems that i wanted somewhat to correct you but it was not my intention, please excuse me.. i was only saying that it is a normal phenomenon of kali yuga and that we have to face it on personal basis. One has to find HIS guru, to find his doctor.. then maybe he can speak of it as a social/institutional/political problem. One can give faults to parliaments, ministers, leaders, organizations... also to the poor souls cheated by maya in feeling themselves qualified to act as guru, but ultimately all these analysis are useless (prajalpa) if we are not blessed by a sincere desire to find a devotee as pure as the previous acharyas to bring us in the right path to krsna

"Has anybody looked upon finding guru as an ongoing process that extends beyond formal intiation? Much like ,if not exactly like, diksa? " ••••i do not understand (surely for my poor english).... can you kindly extend your explanation?

"What part does Caitya-guru, the internal and ultimate guide , play in this? " ••••total... we pray, we desire, we call the help of krishna with our efforts in study, in chanting in the behaviour but ultimately, in his causeless mercy the Caitya-guru manifest himself to us in the form of the phisical guru

" we cannot develope any ability to recognize the pure devotee, the only hope is to be blessed by his mercy and to be recognized and saved by him " I beg to disagree with this. ••••ok, but read the other message by me... i do not say that reading the scriptures to learn the features of the devotees it is not good... it is good and necessary, I only say that ultimately it works if we are blessed by krsna to understand the real meaning of these features. And krsna gives this mercy if we have intense desire.. and this desire is demonstrated also because we read and study. A devotee do not believe to have made some advancement for his efforts and skills, a devote thinks that it is only for krsna's mercy. And also being blessed by the advent of a pure devotee in our life is ultimately krsna's mercy, not for our erudition on scriptures. but we can be informed enough to make an intelligent decision. •••yes.. informed by our reading and mostly.. inspired (and informed) by sri krsna by his CAUSELESS mercy (causeless means that it does not come because we develope some competence) The danger is getting the imitation or something otherwise defective. ••••yes, why not.. faith can be perverted in "blind faith" and spiritual culture can be polluted as arid erudition.. the defect is the lack of seriousness and real desire.. crying ISKCON history is the perfect example. ••••i do not want to make critics to iskcon, the problem is not a "group" problem, it is a personal problem... but the phenomenon of false gurus can be a demonstration of lack of spiritual culture, as you have said and lack of intense desire to be blessed as i have said GAURA GOVINDA MAHARAJA: Gour Govinda Swami: Through his books, yes. All sadhus speak through their books. Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Prabhupada all say that they speak through books. This is not a new thing. This is our vaisnava procedure. But you should see him.Can you see Bhaktivinode Thakur? Can you see Jiva Goswami ? You may say, "Oh I have read their books, I have their association." That won't help you. You cannot understand what they have said merely by reading their books.Your consciousness is very low, so you cannot understand their words. They are very, very merciful, but you should follow the proper path. If you are intelligent you will understand how they are still here, not only in the form of their books but also they are here. You should see them. Why are you thinking so foolishly? So many books were already there, so why has Srila Prabhupada said this? You are thinking, " We need only to read books. There is no need of association with a sadhu who is physically present. Is there any sadhu No, there is no sadhu at all." •••••••••••••••••••• Devotee: So we have to associate with a living sadhu? Gour Govinda Swami: Definitely. There is always one there. But he is not a cheap person. Such a person is very rare. If you can get his mercy then you can see him. Otherwise, by your own effort and perception you cannot see him. No, no, no. You always think that you are drasta, the seer, and that the sadhu is drsta, the one to be seen. Everyone is like this. They think they are the seers. But it is just the reverse. You are to be seen and they are the seer! Think this over very deeply. I think you cannot completely understand what I say. We always think that we are the seer and that they are to be seen, but this is not a fact. It is just the reverse. They are the seers and we are to be seen. •••••••••••••••••••••

obviously you were not speaking with me... i gave my opinion when i have read this: ""Only one who makes a serious, SERIOUS study of Srila Prabhupada's books and lectures can understand the requriements for perfection. " and now you have said this: " he said ........ that we can't judge perfection because WE are not perfect" i am not judging what other things this guy said, but this is true... we cannot develope any ability to recognize the pure devotee, the only hope is to be blessed by his mercy and to be recognized and saved by him

no matter how much you try to change them they will never change? •••yes, it happens most of the times.. it is called karma.. we are so entangled by the reactions of our past activities that the freedom to change our destiny is very near to zero... and what we do now generates new karma and on and on and on So, if you hope things change then is it not an illusion because things turn out only as they wish and nothing more. ••••not as they wish... as we wish, but our desires are so out of control, and we are so ignorant of the reactions to our actions that it seems that all is happening randomly I find it hard to see that there is a supreme entity controlling everything in this world. ••••it is easy, because seeing al this mess by a more higher perspective everything works with precise laws: the planets, the gravity, the ecology, the life, the time... there's peoples and nations gaining power because they were poor from hundreds of years, and people who being rich for many years now they have to pay the bill and getting weaker. So from a higher perspective everything is logical. and this logic who rules the universe is an aspect or an energy of god It is easier to believe that it is a mess made by actions of countless beings who are just living out their lives, ••••no, this (apparent)mess cannot change the laws of the nature.. things are always falling from high to low, water is wet, people are born young and die old, sun is hot, snow is cold... so there's rules.. and these rules are not behaving randomly and they do not depend from our behaviour..

i agree.. but there's imho something to add "Only one who makes a serious, SERIOUS study of Srila Prabhupada's books and lectures can understand the requriements for perfection. " ••••the serious study of the book of the acharyas requires the guidance and the "spiritual linking" to the parampara' (siksa and diksa) from a bona fide spiritual master, otherwise we, being eternally conditionated, cannot really enter the world of the spiritual scriptures i have read many time in this forum how srila gaura govinda maharaja say that we can find a guru only: "crying before krsna" so to understand an acharya (prabhupada) is required the guidance(siksa) and benedition(diksa) of an acharya (gurudeva) and to find this last acharya (the "present" gurudeva) it is required much "crying".. sincerity and intense desire to "call" the krsna's mercy. To study intensely the scriptures, i believe (please correct me if it is wrong), is showing more the symptom of the intense desire and sincerity than being in itself the cause of our capacity to find a pure vaishnava and surrender to him how do you think? am i wrong?

Can we have an intimate relation with God while staying in this world? •••••any relation with the supreme personality of godhead is on the spiritual plane, if we are with god we are in vaikunta even if externally it seems that we live on the earth If not why not? ••••so.. yes.. but material world become spiritual world, because ultimately it is a state of consciousness If yes, how do you know if that type of relationship is a mutual interest between God and you and not something that is coming from your own imagination? ••••it is not possible to have a close relationship with god (as the gopas and gopis for example) if we are conditioned, these rasas are very much beyond the liberation from material suffering. So, if we think to have a direct relation with krsna and simultaneously we have basic moral problems, fear of the death, pain, discontinuity of consciousness and so on this relation is illusory and dangerous for our spiritual and mental health. To be spiritual means to be CIT.. completely conscious.. so if one has a close relation with krsna he does not feel the need to ask others if it is true or not. He sees krsna directly, he lives with krsna, he's conscious to be eternal, he is in complete and ever increasing bliss. The vaishnavas chant hare krishna, accept a spiritual master and serve krsna through guru and devotees.. the other realizations are obviously welcomed but they come at the right time without separate efforts

Xerox? Its called ParamPara. ••••yes.. parampara is made by big and huge different personalities... perfectly devoted to spread the message also changing some details to improve the preaching... the xerox is not parampara. If you negate the variety, it is like you are saying that there are not or there will not be more pure devotees after the prabhupada's departure but only copies... or RITVIKS! What worked before coming down from Krishna Himself, works now. ••••••yes, that every acharya is in many things different from the previous We simply are looking for loopholes to make things easier on ourself. ••••why are you doing like that? it is not good prabhu! :-) We just love those 3 1/2 regulative principles. •••••i just wonder what is the 1/2 that you do not like :-D it is clear that you had discussions with people about a subject that you wrongly believe having something to do with the (simple and basic) things i have said about the time, place and circumstance principle... i am very sorry, but it has nothing to do with me

i have not folio with me, but for example i remember a prabhupada comment where he says that it is demoniac to criticize a pure devotee of the lord when he makes marginal changes in the siddhanta or even irregolarities with the purpose to spread krishna consciousness. It is not even clear for me why the fact that if krsna behaves like that it is not enough to say that this is a qualification also for a devotee. And, as a logic, i cannot imagine a master (spiritual, musical, sportive, latin, medicine, computer, rhumba, cooking) who does not teach according the principle of opportunity. Or you think that this is ended with prabhupada and now it is the time of Xerox gurus from here to the next 9500 years? now you have also a citation... jaya prabhupada /images/graemlins/cool.gif

he asked if the idea of seeing the lord everywhere means seeing Krsna literally everywhere,the answer is no, ••••yes prabhu right.. it is a different realization and another kind of vision.. thanks

"No, you do not see Krsna literally,as in the form of Krsna in gold dhoti holding a flute" ••••please correct me if i misunderstood your message, but if one chants without offences sees krsna syamasundara, goloka, gopis, gopas, sri radhe etc. pure nama comes together with rupa, guna, lila... (maybe i have not understood.. please excuse me)

"Don't compromise with Prabhupada because you are too weak to follow his already compromised standards" •••••it is very easy to understand that it is not my intention, i am speaking of a principle, not advocating a possible deviation from that principle. let us not say that who is speaking of radharani is necessarily a sahajia.. for example

Where in the shAstras (vedas, purANas, itihAsas, etc) is it stated that one qualification of a "pure devotee" is that he "invariably changes something marginal to preach krsna consciousness?" •••••you can read in the nectar of devotion, between the qualities of sri krsna that he's the master of judging according time, place and circumstance. So time changes, place can change, circumstance changes.. krsna and the pure devotee preach considering these aspect... always otherwise why have a master ? the books are full of instructions

How to know if that power and authority is real or assumed? ••••being in this world because we want to cheat krishna, we have to pray Him to not fall in the hands of a cheater. On the other hands the problems we had with bogus gurus in the recent past, being very gross, were not so difficult (i say it admitting also my faults) to check reading seriously bhagavad gita and the prabhupada's and previous acharya's instructions. We have to choose carefully (acharyas, shastra, sadhu) and we have to be selective and pray... our seriousness and care will be taken by krsna as an intense desire to find a real vaishnava. And the master will find us, not the opposite. If we think about, when we act in the devotional realm, we are not actually making things happen... it is the mercy of krsna who does everything fullfilling our intense desire.. "hare krishna.. oh radhe, oh mercy of krsna!! please give me krsna!!" Personally, I see no need to add or subtract from the basics that Prabhupada has laid out. ••••me too.. from the basics to the highest things.. but the spiritual world is variety, i can expect to see the chatya guru manifested in a person different from prabhupada, and to see this person acting differently on some (marginal) subjects and simultaneously bring people to krsna as prabhupada did and does. As i said, if we think that masters are made with the xerox, it is a great problem.. because who changes for material purposes is a cheater but who instructs without considering the guna and karma of the person, time , place and circumstance is an impersonalist Now as we attempt to apply those there will be some adjustments some will have to make to harmonize with our external lives. ••••yes.. this is what spiritual masters are made for, we can read general subjects in the books and begin to understand some principles.. but we, as "little arjunas" we need krishna or his representative teaching us how to apply the principles in our life, wich principles are for us, wich ones are made for others.. and as arjuna, maybe , we will have to surrender to an instruction that we before considered the exact opposite of what is the right thing to do for us to advance in krsna consciousness There are many more advanced devotees to receive such siksa from. ••••yes, but siksa is not to find a friend a little more advanced than us, ask something, and decide to follow or not. This is friendship, not discipleship.. Guru is "janme janme prabhu sei" siksa or diksa, he has to be a pure devotee and we must abandon ourselves to him. And if we are not initiated, he will give initiation or he will bring us to his guru to be initiated. So siksa has to be pure as diksa, and who teachs has to be ready to take the full responsability. Otherwise we are friends and there's no harm in exchanging realizations, not only, it is necessary and saint... But I see no need for any changes in temple life beyond the allowances he has already given. •••••it is not a very important subject (imho), in vrindaban some one has mangala arati at 4...... 4.30....... 5. The secret is to follow the instructions of a master and to be ready also to be heavily personally chastized, we follow the instructions basically to learn what we have forgotten escaping from the spiritual world... to be humble servants of krsna and the vaishnavas. So if the pure guru says 4 we have to be ready at 4. In this way we follow, in principle, prabhupada.. much better than one without guru or with a bogus one who sleeps with the folio and the lilamrita aside ready to spread blood on the mangala arati at 4.30, or carrots, or to shave or not in chaturmasya etc. Change for change sake has the devil's fingerprint stamped on it. •••of course... it is the 3rd offence: "3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master."... one has to have a master and follow Doesn't directly affect me as I have shown an in ability to even adhere to the basics ••••oh, no problem, wich devotee can say "i am following!!!" a devotee is humble, and saying what you have said, you're behaving as a devotee but it would be nice to keep Prabhupada's established ways intact. •••••yes of course... i wanted only to point that "exact" can also be judged different by "literal" by pure devotees in different times, places, circumstances and followers...... and that we have to ask advices to present pure vaishnavas who know what is actually to follow exacly the acharyas. We, often, can see only external things, better to ask to people who see the deep...... soul and krishna excuse me for the "preaching" flavor(?!?!?!) but my english is very limited (my consciousness too)

prabhu.. surely you have perfectly understood... maya is powerful and can ruin everything... a deviation is to change whimisically to follow less regulations and so on another deviation is to apply the same instruction to different people in different circumstances so, to recognise who's really following prabhupada or parampara is a very difficult and subtle matter. My suggestion is that if one's not pure, he's bogus even if he try to act as a carbon copy of prabhupada.. if one's pure, he can make many changes and simultaneously be perfectly in line with acharya. Like when we see prabhupada doing innumerable changes but remaining perfectly in the gaudya vaishnava siddhanta. the problem is if one's an uttama adhikari or not... if he's uttama he can preach as he wants, asking 1, 4, 1000, 0 regulative principles.. allowing women in the temple or not etc... but he will bring people back to godhead, as prabhupada, bhatkisiddhanta, chaitanya, krishna want

joined

our friend "ancient patriot" has already written the offences.. with the panchatattva(five realities) mahamantra we are simply saying "JAYA" to sri chaitanya mahaprabhu and his close associates : chaitanya nityananda advaita gadadhara srivasa we recognize that they gave to us that mahamantra, we ask for their autorization and we ask to be forgiven as much as possible for the offences made chanting the mahamantra.. joking it is like : "chaitanya mahaprabhu, hou have said that i have to chant.. it is ok for me.....but now please forgive me if, following your instruction, i commit some mistakes"

If they do see Krishna everywhere, how is it possible for one like me to see Him everywhere? ••••chanting hare krishna without the ten offences... very difficult:) I can not control the mind as I would like it, and thus cannot control the senses, or rather the desires of the senses, at all the time. How does one gain control of the mind? ••••chanting hare krishna, there's not to make separate efforts, the effectiveness of the chanting is mostly based on the fact that we have faith that it is the only true and definitive medicine of all our problems what is Krishna Consciousness ••••to recognise that we are parts and parcels of sri krsna and that we cannot really live without loving him how one can become Krishna Conscious •••••chanting hare krishna, associating with vaishnavas who will bring us to a pure uttama adhikari spiritual master, taking initiation, following humbly the advices of the master, chanting hare krishna, chanting hare krishna, chanting hare krishna What does a Krishna Conscious person practice and do daily? •••••basically he chants hare krishna without offences and with deep love for krishna.. in this way he see krishna and he lives in the spiritual world even if we see him in this earth. All his life is completely modelled by chanting and the act of sharing the chanting with others I think that Krishna is going to have to make arrangements for me to have a spiritual haster, which I dearly wish he does; •••••this desire reveals your sincerity and seriousness... you are a devotee, i offer to you my humble obeisances... be selective and ask to krsna to be blessed by the advent of a pure devotee in your life What are the necessary qualifications of one that is Krishna Conscious? •••••unlimited and pure love for krishna

I chant, read the Bhagavad-Gita, only listen to music that feels good (only listen to chants on cd.'s ect..)I think of Krishna all the time ).I guess that's easy because every where I look, I see Him.I also go to the temple on Sundays and during the week when I can. Besides doing this, what else can I do? I want Krishna even more than just this. How can I be more connected and closer to him? It is almost like whatever I do,it is not enough, I want more. So how can I?What to do? ••••••••the only thing missing, the very first to do and the most important... to search for a pure devotee spiritual master, and to pray krsna to send him to you.. (tad viddhi pranipatena..)

A lot of devotees die because they can no longer stand the pain of seperation from Krishna any longer. ••••but this has nothing to do with us A lot of the gopis died trying to get to Krishna ••••but this has nothing to do with us A lot of the gopis died trying to get to Krishna and to the uneducated mind they would probably think they were suicidal •••••we are uneducated.. educated means "uttama adhikari" we have only to chant hare krishna, this is the only ticket to go to vaikunta. Prabhupada and acharyas never suggested suicide as a way to liberation and realization, and i suggest to you to be careful.. for newcomers and for non devotee visitors.. we do not contemplate in any way the suicide as a form of spiritual realizatione

"at the end of their life if they go to a forrest and leave their body where it will never be found by any of their relatives they will be raised to the highest goal of life or Krishna." ••••i do not even ask to you the quotation, but , examining the all prabhupada siddhanta, you think that going back to godhead could be so easy? obviously the phrase has to be put in a context.. gong to the forest means to have developed the real qualities of a detached and pure sannyasi.. and the forest is the society where a sannyasi has to go to preach

Fasting until you die while chanting the mahamantra? Or just walking off into the mountains and walking until you perish while chanting mahamantra? Is that considered suicide? •••••yes, it is a suicide because it is not granted that at the very moment of the death we overcome the fear and we think about krsna, Actually if we are not realized it simply does not work. If we are not realized there's no possibility to "provoke" realization with such systems or, from the opposite point of view, a realized person does not try to die in krsna consciousness, simply he do lives in krsna consciousness without considering death (abhay = fearless) "I thought I read in Srila Prabhupada's books that in the Kali-yuga a man should retire to the forrest at the age of 50" •••if one's has the qualities he should take sannyasa and live the last part of the life completely out of the material conception... but if he (she) has (or has developed) the qualities, a fake sannyasa or renounced, or monk, or brahmana for the society is worst than aids, ebola, terrorism, drugs, abortion etc.