yasodanandana

"i feel the biggest misconception is that we lil humans think/act we know everything.... even about God..." •••••naaah... religion is a science, and as other sciences if we are honest, we can recognize if we are simply doing useless speculations or a serious study under a pure and saint spiritual master "he ideas and problems to getting to know God i'm pretty sure we'll find out once we all leave our physical bodies" ••••the limitations of being humans can be overcome if we absorb in the spiritual practice and in the spiritual association.. so we can see something or everything also there... why not? "and thus it becomes a form of conversation which rounds and rounds and goes no where" •••not for everyone and not with everyone!! "because as much as one can truely and sincerly feel one way... there will always be another human who will truely and sincerly feel another... " ••••because we have to learn that spirituality is variety, and also we have to learn that spirituality is a science not a feeling, if you sincerely think that the earth is a cube it is not so important, let us discover what is the real shape of the earth! "because as much as one can truely and sincerly feel one way... there will always be another human who will truely and sincerly feel another... " ••••oh, it is only the beginning.. for example we can study the personality of this ONE GOD studying srimad bhagavatam and reading of sri krsna the supreme personality of godhead.. "this is why it is said that the biggest spiritual crime (or sin if you wish) is to utter a lie about God..." ••••yes, let us avoid the lies but welcome the truth!!! "you know.. one way or another calm the hearts of the fanatics... which ever flag they choose to wave... " •••i cannot avoid to say some things f to study something because some fanatics will use the difference to hurt some one.. fanaticism is possible from any source.... also "THERE'S NOTHING TO LEARN, ALL IS USELESS SPECULATION, WE WILL UNDERSTAND LATER" is an imposition, a sectarism and fanaticism so misconception is bad, conception is good, very good

for the devas/krishna subject i'd say that it is an offence to think that krsna bhagavan is one of the many devas, but it is also a misconception to think to an ALONE GOD in the heaven without a world, a reign, an entourage, servants, helpers, ministers, friends and so on

i would have understood better : "in IskCon we are not doing this and that, but prabhupada said that they have to be done in morning walk etc etc. but for me it is ok... dandavats

to madhav: a krishna bhakta cannot be classified as a non hindu. ••••it depends on how you use this world, i read books and worship god in a way practiced by many classified as hindus, so in this way i can be an hindu, but i am not impersonalist or a believer that krsna is another deva like many people classified as hindus believe. In the same way i can say that in some sense i am christian, in others not "any HK anywhere is able to understand the problems of the hindus caused by the muslims" ••••i understand and i am sorry because so many people are doing wars using god as a weapon, but i do not think that there's a faction completely dharmic and another adharmic... so i do not identify, and no vaishnava authority tells me to identify myself with one of the two faction. We will have a Rama temple in ayodya or not, but now the situation has nothing to do with spirituality.... in my opinion better to build the temple some km away and stop the violence

"Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The main similarity is ek-nishtata, or one pointed focus on only one God" •••••yes , but there's something important missing.. these concepts of One God are mostly impersonal, so they're not complete like the krsna bhakti " then I do in a hindu mandir where many murtis of various Devas/Devis are" •••••i all the cristian churches there's the image of christ and in some altars aside the image of saints or mother mary who help to obtain love for christ... "Whereas in India I have seen that it is very difficult for "hindus" coming to bhakti to take Durga Devi (or any other devata) off of their main alter and put only Radha Krishna there" •••••no, i do not see it, you cannot worship krsna because you are muslim and you not bear the "idols", or you cannot worship krsna because you as a kind of hindu believe that all deities are the same...... maya is very strong and clever and is effective all over the world (the ting is not to stop loving durga devi, the thing is to ask durga devi the love for god and not to bother her for money, good husbands and so on!!) "Just because a westerner adopts vaisnavism does not mean they want to adopt "indianism" ••••of course, we have to adopt what is said by acharyas and spiritual master... not other things, there's not even discussion!! "As far as Hindu Nationalism" •••yes, why to support?, a bhakta does not support USA nationalism, Uganda nationalism, Russian nationalism and so on... have i support something blindly because there's written INDIA? i do not think so!! " So if you plan on doing same thing with muslims ladies, first do it to the hindus. It looks even more stupid when they wear it since it is not at all required by their religion but is just another superstitious north indian backwards "custom"." •••is this a big problem? let us preach krsna consciousness.. and if you are a western mataji who think that it is strange to cover your face, do not cover... is this the source of your doubt about "indianizing" yourself? vaishnavism is to chant hare krishna, to surrender to a bona fide/pure devotee vaishnava spiritual master, to study vaishnava books and to respect the 4 regulative principles.... the other "indian" things are marginal details. (also for indian devotees... that are no more indians.. they are vaishnavas!!) So do not worry /images/graemlins/smile.gif

please.. tell also what do you want to demonstrate at the end of all these citations... someone can eat meat? you can eat meat? in certain days with certain ceremonies we can eat it? what's your theory? (varnasrama is transcendental in the sense that gradually leads to religion and next to the devotion, but in itself it is not)

yes.. possible... but i have big doubts that you can approach your spiritual master "hey joe!!" to know some "classic" etiquette does not hurt gurudeva = spiritual master (diksa or siksa) sannyasi or grihasta maharaja=sannyasi prabhu=grihasta (to every devotee!! i like to call prabhu also the matajis) "harekrishna gurudeva" is etiquette, no problem (my spiriual master says that in gaudya vaishnava the tradition is that the guru calls the disciples with "prabhu" and the disciples do not call the guru with the plain name (govinda maharaja, gopala prabhu etc.) but with gurudeva, prabhupada, vishnupada and so on)

"But how do you know that Narasimba is the image of God?" i am very sorry, but there's not a way to explain this thing in a minute if not saying... "it is in the scriptures" the only rationale things to say is : study vaishnavism from the beginning and it will be very easy to understand why, at least, it is perfectly possible that god can appear in a form like that.... and also why, in the bible, to worship god in a form appears to be forbidden... very easy. but we cannot explain the university who is not ever in the primary school.... so, if you have a genuine interest there's a way, if you come only to show your ego.. bye bye!!

"This is like a fairy tale for me." this is not a serious approach... if you study a science it is not too important what "appears" to you, so if you are not serious learning about spiritual subjects in a scientific way, it is also useless if you speak with us. even if you are right, what help you can give if you say : "for me it is a fairy tale?"... i answer "who cares?(in italian "chi se ne frega")" and no one has give an help so, if you want to save us from our false belief please do it better... please save us, if you can, but in a proper and scientific way or are you only a fanatic who like to insult people covered by the anonimity of internet???

or... dear reaswaran you have come to your conclusion reasoning and using your free mind... also let us to do like that... so (as your realized master have done with you) bring logical or scriptural demonstrations to help our understanding..... not "I THINK THAT", this is not a help... absolutely

to wear saree or dothi is taken by indians as a sign that a western is a devotee, because they see that in the west only harekrishnas wear saree and dothi. So if one behaves as a vaishnava it is very good if he or she wears these dresses and tilak... it is a glory of chaitanya and prabhupada if we westerners can go in the sacred places.. western clothing that cover the body approximately like a saree (skirt) or like panjabi (pants with a long shirt) are IMHO good..... maybe, for a mataji, it is good to have something to cover the head... (in india there's a lot of pornography with western women, in my opinion western girls have to be very chaste in their behaviour to not increase the idea that western women are all easy and lusty.... let them see at least that devotee matajis are not like that) in vrindavan (and in western temples too) many devotees or indians wear also "gopi dress" a very simple (but nice) dress similar to a saree, but , as my wife and others say, more confortable and simple to put on..... ..you'll see when you will go!!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif (a man who's explaining woman dresses.... bah..)

"Even you are writing to say it is OK to come to ISKCON devotees and say "prabhu, leave yur guru"" prabhu, do not joke with these subjects, i am not saying that everyone has to go in iskcon and say "leave iskcon".. i am saying that as a principle is not bad if one says to a friend devotee, taking this big responsability, with the purpose to save him: " leave this fake guru.." to help devotees to get out from illusion is a very dear service to krsna and prabhupada.. so,,, read more carefully, i have said a principle, not that anyone has to go to iskcon to insult people.. if someone insult a pure devotee, iskcon , non iskcon the way to hell is open so, please think about more seriously before putting insults for iskcon in my mouth "then you and anadi and VNN " ••••there's not a group like that, i have nothing to do with anadi and vnn (what do you want by me?) "There are things I can say about your guru which are not insults, just facts" ••••yes, you can say only beautiful facts for the last disciple of bhaktisiddhanta living in this earth, intimate friend and companion of srila prabhupada.. so be careful. You are clearly trying to insult me because you wrongly think that i have offended IskCon.. being not true, please rectify your behaviour "Admin5 will delete it because Admin5 does not want to see criticism of devotees." •••••and you like criticisms of devotees? " But still, it is a fact that many devotees think your guru is not teaching the same teachings as Srila Prabhupada" •••••better to stop offences.. even if, maybe, you think that i am disciple of another:D " instead of publishing VNN articles. " ••••i do not publish any article and i have nothing to do with VNN, Vedanta Samhiti and so on...maybe you have exchanged me for another devotee. excuses accepted /images/graemlins/smile.gif:D

so please give us a link or write the conversation yourself... how can we accept without read? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

you are rightly against "all leadrs of iskcon are bad" but you are saying "gaudya vedanta samithi is always to find faults in iskcon" an offence answered with anoither offence.. are all devotees from iskcon not serious? are all devotees disciples of narayana maharaja not serious? so why we speak of groups if all the members of a vaishnava group are obviously not at the same level of consciousness and behaviour? <font color="red"> (please forgive me if i appear too arsh and aggressive, i'd want to be much more sweet and diplomatic ... but having not a good english i have not too much instruments to express exactly my feelings.. so, please, prabhu, accept my prostrated obeisances)</font color>

i can understand very well, you have well done avoiding the association of the offenders... but do not make the same error.. these leaders are offenders because they say that who is outside iskcon is not to associate with and followed if we want to be in the prabhupada's lineage you do not make the same mistake saying that in iskcon there's no vaishnavas... simple i understand, i am your brother, i give this opinion with my heart, let us win sectarisms in a vaishnava way!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif if we are happy, serious and effulgent, others will follow (my spiritual master, srila bhaktivaibhava puri goswami maharaja says that these quarrels are a sign of the glory of srila prabhupada, if we had not prabhupada coming all over the world to spread the holy name... we'd had no quarrels.... but even NO HOLY NAME!!)

yes... there's nothing bad in absolute in beeing kanista, but why not to search to be madyam? and madyam means discrimination kanista "all italians are stupid" madyam "there's some stupid and some intelligent... stupids are A, B, F... intelligents are C, D, G before destroying the sinful cities sodoma and gomorra god is ready to stop if there's only ONE MORAL man in these cities, so if in iskcon, vedanta samhiti, caitanya mission there's only ONE serious devote in each organization, if we go on destroying we go to hell... and chanted rounds, studied books, performed austerities, pious activities done, dandavats, jayas, will not save us (moral: latin=probus.. sanscrit= prabhu)

"So it is the duty of the disciple to defend guru and bhakti." …………yes, but not on the "team" (iskcon, chaitanya mission, muslims, christians..) plane.. this is kanista

"I have no problem with that but representing our God, the creator and the Merciful into that kind of horrible picture...." ••••but god is "terrible" also many times in the bible, seeing nrsmha deva i can easly imagine the god's face when he destroyed the two sinful cities Sodoma and Gomorra.... so a christian or an hebrew or muslim should not find so strange that god has also a terrible face for people who need to see him in this way.. krsna is also mrityuhara... the lord of the death (who is in contro of life and death if not god?) of course devotee are more attached to Vrindavan Chandra Krsna... but Narasimha Deva is also mercyful and sweet,,, read attentively Srimad Bhagavatam and you will be in love with this Nara(man)Simha(lion) form!!!

"You are evidently no student of history. ..." ••••it is ok that what is moral for me can be immoral to you... but there's an intolerance of who wants to impose his theory on others and the intolerance of who says "all theories are the same".... and there's also the insincerity of who cannot demonstrate that he is right and he find shelter in the principle "everything is the same" in the practical life we do not live like that, we choose every nanosecond what is good and what is wrong for us.. so there's nothing to change when we speak of spirituality (when i try to explain to my wife Purnima D.D. that all the girls are the same, and i can embrass them all, after a second i see her with a big stick... is she in maya? is she conditioned in the illusory world of individuality and differences? is she a product of the judeo/christian/individualist culture? /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

"It is the Atman which does not die- but the body definitely does " ••••yes... but the statement was "NO ONE DIES".. or "NO LIVING BEING DIES"... and a body is not an individual who dies or lives... so, no one dies.. he simply change clothes, who being made of dead matter (wool, cotton, skin, human skin in our discussion) they necessarily, at a certain point, disgregate and get destroyed

"The problem with those who have extended consciousness (humans) is that we need to try to justify all matters" •••right... but the main matter is to chant hare krishna, so every arrangement or adjustement to bring back morality has to be done, not in abstract, but to spread and strenghten the chanting

"People from Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti always go out to debate and disturb ISKCON devotees with useless quarrels. Why don't you go and preach to new people instead. " ••••the first thing is that i know many people from VS who do not disturb IskCon... etc.. etc... so you are wrong.. and, as a principle, there's nothing bad to preach to other vaishnavas.. so, in abstract, there's nothing bad if i come to you "prabhu, leave yur guru, he's not pure".. (and i demonstrate) So, also this actions have to be judged one by one (is it true? wha is the motivation of who's criticizing? he is informed or simply sectarian? is he acting with love or simply wants to support his team? has he respected the time/place/circumstance principle?) In itself to preach at vaishnavas is not wrong, we have only to judge if that singular preaching is true and if it is a preaching or propaganda. we cannot be ourselves sectarian to fight the sectarism

"The main reason I cannot sympathize with Narayana Swami followers" •••do not speak of groups, you do not know all the people of that group.. if there's only one (and i know many) who do not "love to go on the offensive" you are doing aparadha to him... of course this is for everyone coming from any group, vaishnava or not "To me, the mark of a truly advanced devotee is that he bears even unfair criticism." •••yes, but this is a thing to pretend more from ourselves not from others... if you came to me: "Yaso.. this man have offended me!!" my main concern is to rectify the offence. If i think: "Oh, what a bad devotee.. he's not bearing the offences made to him"... I AM DOING OFFENCE!!" So, no one have to offend devotees.. the advanced ones who are detached, and the neophytes. "when I see him "barking" back, I can understand that he has not fully controlled anger." •••as i have said..to judge the advancement of people, this is not our main business " I simply cannot get attracted to a religious organizations which cannot rise about sectarian politics." ••••a devotee is not attracted or attracted by an organization, a devotee is attracted by a spiritual master... when we speak about organizations and not of single people sectarism is very close.. so, if you think that prabhupada has to be studied and worshipped, there's no need to put attention to some (non)disciples who have done bad things.. the same for Narayana Maharaja, Jayapataka Maharaja, Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja, Satsvarupa Maharaja etc. my point is that we deal with bahktas, gurus, vaishnavas...... individuals.. not with brands, groups, sects, boundaries, religion, nations.. so we have to be sorry when a follower of that guru is offended and also the one of the other guru.. and we have to go for association with devotees, not with organizations

"Si tutto qui e giusto e perfetto e allora Dio Krishna e il piu bello " (here everything is right and perfect.. krsna, the supreme personality of godhead is the most beautiful) oltre che essere un bravo devoto sai scrivere pure un buon italiano (you're a nice devotee and you write a good italian) hare krishna (= cara radharani, per favore dammi l'amore per krishna (dear radharani, please give to me the love for krishna))

yes... my vote for theist... no one dies