yasodanandana

Hare krishna dear vaishnavas.. i would ask to you all to kindly find for me some citations by srila prabhupada saying that krsna consciousness has to be learned conjointly from guru, shastra and sadhu. citations from other acharyas are also nice (i am having a discussion with a friend) many thanks

Did His Divine Grace say to stay away from his Godbrothers? •••many answers: 1)yes he did for keeping on him the attention of unattentive disciples 2)he was maybe more close to his godbrothers than we sometimes believe 3)as we have seen, prabhupada made distinctions between godbrothers 4)a disciple is perfectly conscious that the behaviour of his guru maharaja with his godbrothers and his master could be incomprensible being transcendental 5)at the end of his permanence in this planet srila prabhupada said to the godbrothers that it was for preaching purpose, and he was asking for collaboration 6)now prabhupada is not there phisically so we have to find another pure uttama adhikari to serve under his direction... bhagavad gita says it, uttama adhikari...... organization, sect, math, church is not important as this aspect, one has to became a disciple of a person... the appartenence to an organization comes after. i only ask because i know Srila Prabhupada associated with Puri Maharaja, so this has to be a good sigh right? ••••yes i think that is a good sign, of course!! My other question is, how do Iskcon see all the above etc, any thoughts, i hope this can be answered simply, and not create a disturbance on this thread.. •••the laws say that basically one has to stay at his own home with the possibility to give the permission to stay in iskcon to a disciple of a non iskcon guru by authorization of the local GBC. In my (extremely humble) opinion iskcon is too much "organization based"... i would like so much also that the admission to the service in iskcon could be more selective, but on personal basis. In the math of guru maharaja is not that everyone is admitted doing puja, giving class, singing bhajans, managing etc.. but this selection is not done by organization, The fact is, for example, that i, disciple, do not even touch mridanga because it is the service of two brahmacharis and that every afternoon, in vrindavan, kartika... the lesson on damodarastaka was given the half of the times by devotees not disciples of srila gurudeva. So selection is there... but personal... i am not fit even if disciple, they are fit even if non disciples I have a "local" concept of the association.... if i want collaboration for preaching in rome i find more rational to ask the collaboration of an expert devotee in rome even if belonging to another math than a godbrother of naples 1)if we are clever, we will avoid to point too much attention on the differences 2)peoples are less scandalizad by our differences than we devotees often believe 3)if one of rome takes tha initiation by one of the gurus of the two devotees, no matters... he return to rome to make service, so no temple loses personneel and so on in italy we have a relatively good situation with iskcon, i have some little fixed services (also a little nama hatta group) in iskcon.... someone is diffident, someone is openly against me, but my life is much more easy than i espected the day i was taking initiation .... so no problem.. hare krishna

(if you are a disciple or an aspiring disciple: "Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaja") at least 16 rounds... at least.. but one has to chant more as possible no meat, egg, fish no intoxication no illicit sex no gambling but the relationship is personal, i have heard and seen exceptions in a more strict sense or less strict if we are in the west gurudeva recommends to practice the spiritual program given by srila prabhupada

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1st of all .... the chanting of hare krishna is above all rules and regulation, so anything we say about the behaviour, the paraphernalia, the offences and so on is a complete failure if the result is that people start to believe that it is too difficult and they do not start to chant or stop their chanting. So let us not make it difficult in any way. <> >< <> when we are too preoccupied with the number of rounds, if we can break the rounds, wich hour we have to chant etc, it is manifest that we are not absorbed in chanting and that we have no real and steady taste in doing it. so, after said that we are in maya (i am the first!!)... let's compile a chart : 1)the best is to chant everytime constantly absorbed like haridas thakura 2)to chant the number rounds assigned by the spiritual master in the morning from start to end in concentration with no interruption (i do not like too much the fixed rules on duration, and i would be a little more "long" than the average 1.30... 1.45 that we hear sometimes... but it is not so important, everyone of us knows wery well when he is concentrated and when he's chanting correctly the names) 3)to chant the rounds divided in two , three, our four groups also in various part of the day. 4)to chant with interruptions but exclusively at the end of the round 5)to chant interrupting rounds in the middle when we do like that my gurudeva recommends to restart the round from the beginning and not from where we have stopped, he says like that maybe at every initiation ceremony. so not to be an hypochrite i have to say that i go against all of the above regulations and i interrupt my rounds and i restart from where i have stopped. The system is to pull out a little portion of the mala by the last bead chanted from the beads bag.. in this way the bead is ready to be taken in the hand when we restart. I know that i am suggesting a not so good thing but it is exactly my level of krishna consciousness.. . . for the fact of the japa during the menstrual cycle period i do not think that there's limitations and i have not heard of it by acharyas, prabhupada, gurudeva and so on, but i do not know all the instruction of the vaishnavas. I have heard of chanting, in this period, on plastic beads, counters, fingers and so on, but i have heard it only from fanatic fellows in full speculation spirit and i do not know any mataji prabhu abandoning tulasi japa mala in this circumstance. (in my opinion, hands washed, one has the right and the duty to take his japamala at any stage of cleanliness (sickness, work, cooking etc,)) this is a very important subject, please correct me if i have said wrong things

"All my other Godbrothers are very much envious, as I can understand from their behavior." •••even if us little pupils have not too much to speculate on these often transcendental quarrels among devotees, i am without doubt very happy for the preference of His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada for the mercyful vaishnava who have initiated me : Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Goswami Maharaja. many thanks Govindaram... http://www.bvml.org/SBVPGM/index.html www.iskcon.it/prabhupadadesh/purim.wmv

you have a no so pleasant tendence to accuse the ones who have a different opinion of many deviations and demonic tendences, They are polytheist, anti gaudya, anti prabhupada, sahajia etc. etc., and they display these tendence with the purpose to bring in their deviation other people. And this is too excessive and obviously not at all mercyful, because you do not recognize in the others the simple will to debate for a better understanding and the legitimate tendency to change idea only when it appear to them sure and clear and not for a dogma or imposition. I assure you that i am in these days speaking with devotees, also very expert devotees, also prabhupada disciples and so on, who, given the link of our thread, they are more on my and ghari's side and they are judging your position somewhat too close to impersonalism or monism. ""The philosophy of inconceivable oneness and difference propounded by Lord Caitanya is the only source of understanding for such intricacies of transcendence." this phrase is judged from me and others who i have spoken very risolutive to say that the truth stay in a middle position between oneness and variety or better, it stays entirely in the spiritual world, being surely different from your "monism/symbolism/allegory" etc. and the polytheism that you use as an accuse to your opponents.. and this approach is somewhat problematic also in our old discussion on the spiritual master with the impression that when one is close to god, basing his existence directly or indirectly by him (it does not matter), there's a depersonalization and the individual if not already a simple dress worn by krsna, he loses all his personality, qualities and will and becames a robot, a dress, a leather suit and so on. but this is not the main problem, we can live with opinion differences... the main problem, in my opinion, is that you behave as you believe that who is speaking differently by you is without doubt insincere, speculative and offensive with acharyas. so, speaking to you as a friend, believe me or not, me and others have a little will to read the scriptures, we have some respect for the acharyas, we keep as valuable your ideas otherwise it would be not a source of discussion, but our comprehension is sincerely different by yours and we feel clearly the difference between what we are saying and a polytheism or a sahajaism. so do not change your ideas but i think it is better for you to be more subtle in judging others and their sincerity.. (the xeroxed accuse of sahajaism is especially bad... otherwise my false ego would have abandoned the field 24 hours ago) /images/graemlins/smile.gif

"Hmm, that sounds like a strange way of reasoning to me. Communication based on just written words isn't always easy I guess. I just hope you didn't understand me wrong. " •••oh i am sorry, excuse me.. i try to expand a little: basically i see that these guru issues are very western, in the traditional gaudya vaishnava situation (this does not exclude iskcon of course) there's the obvious necessity to find a uttama adhikari guru and there's also the opinion, maybe very strong, of the devotees on the purity and competence of others. But the discussions are very few, the guru and math appartenence is private and personal and the people associate and do services on other basis and affinities so the discussions "my guru"--"your guru" are very few said this i think that the most quarrelling cathegories are, perhaps, many of the post samadhi initiation advocates and some of the "there's no need of guru, i can do by myself reading and listening to paramatma" party i do not want to offend you or any other devotee, surely i am super OT, i think also that the majority of the people in the above position is not there because they're bad or demons,,,, maybe unfortunate.. exactly like me who i am a devotee only as a farce so please excuse me for any offence, i have only a little idea that the guru debate is more for who has not a guru, maybe hiding behind "i do not need.. krsna is the guru" so i admit another time my complete OT , be mercyful!!

the more i hear of prabhupada and more i i think that his divine grace is perfect, the istruction to tarun kanti includes all the krsna consciousness inside it .. many thanks

in these debates the ones saying that the guru is ONLY krsna or that the ONLY guru is an acharya who is no more in our world are very active and maybe, often, the biggest "time wasters" and insincere.... maybe more than the ones who, correctly, approach (or pray krsna to approach one day) a pure, present, uttama adhikari and follow (or try to follow) The thing is: when do you know that a guru is bogus ? ••••we have read often in this site some words of srila gaura govinda maharaja saying that we, being conditioned, do not understand when one is pure... so the only hope is "to cry before krishna", to desire with all oure heart to be choosen by an uttama adhikari. We will obtain a bogus if we have bogus desires, we will have a pure if we are sincere.. and the vaishnava, ultimately thinks that if he has some realizations or progresses (including the one to be in the school of a pure acharya) it's all krsna's mercy

all the problems come because we are using concepts of the material world for explaining the spiritual one and because there's not a concept or a word of our conditionated language to explain the existence in the spiritual realm. So , the thing of the policeman who goes home and leaves the role of policeman to take the one of the father, to display a different, more intimate personality, is absolutely right. In the material world there's a strong duality between inner and outer, substance and appearance, marginal and essential, body and soul and so on. We have an essence and an appearance and we know that the essence, the soul is real, and the other roles we display in this world are illusory and temporary and they are only dresses. All is dualism, the world is based on the difference by existence and maya, and all the variety is generated by this. But it is not the same for the spiritual world, there we do not miss the variety, the differences, because in spirit we do not miss any of the things existing in the matter, but we have also the concept and the quality of the oneness.. and they coexist. But we conditioned humans, in our language and in our material way to think, we do not understand this fact.. We agree that everything it is in the spiritual realm is god (it is also the same with the material world, but let's not introduce another subject) but we have also to explain the variety. If we make it in a material way we can say that variety is an illusion, the oneness is the only aspect, and the only real existence is krsna. The opposite expaination, also material, could be that the variety is the only truth and and we have many supreme gods and polytheism. My opinion is that if we have so many advices by the masters saying that krsna and his associates are one, but also so many demonstrations and displays in the scriptures of complete and complex personalities, the truth has to be different from the above material excesses. In our philosophy the word PERSONALITY is very sensible and supremely important, so important that we say that the ulimete reality, the source of all the others existences is not GOD, but the SUPREME PERSONALITY of GODHEAD. So, the result and sum of the many citations you have brought and all the spiritual culture if the divine lilas is that the concept that we both accept "RADHA and KRISHNA are ONE displaying DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES" has not to be explained with human cathegories that, for ignorance and real mental insufficiency, are excessively attached to one of the two aspects of oneness or variety. So RADHA is KRSNA and RADHA is a PERSON, these statements have the same importance and they are fully implemented in the spiritual world. As said from other devotees partecipating in this discussion we cannot have this huge display of lilas, activities, complex personalities and relationships, to discover at the end that everything is an allegory and krsna is alone and sad in a desert spiritual universe without even a chair to sit, because if there would be a chair in vaikunta this chair has to be krishna without any form of distinction with him. "God is displaying different personalities in different forms in different circumstances, always God is the same person" ••••that's right.. different personalities and the same person, these two words in this context are synonims, we say that krsna is the supreme personality of godhead, so if we accept that the word PERSONALITY means only EXTERNAL APPEARANCE, we arrive to the conclusion that KRSNA is the external display of a more deeper, internal reality... and that's not vaishnava, that's advaitism. (i repeat... if PERSONALITY means EXTERNAL APPEARANCE, "supreme personality of godhead" means "supreme external apparence of godhead" saying that god is beyond the personal krsna form... and that's not true!!) PERSON and PERSONALITY are not synonims of EXTERNAL APPEARANCE... certainly not in the spiritual realm where there's not exterior, maya... If you want to preach polytheism, good luck with that. ••••the problem is that you preach impersonalism to counteract my polytheism :-) (the other citations, in my opinion, add nothing to this discussion... let us use them when some one will come saying that the lilas are material stories with ordinary mortal humans and illusory personalities involved)

it's me...

should i take it seriously that Krishna doesn't want me to worship him? •••no prabhu.. we have chosen to leave krsna and to fall in the realm of maya. Maya is necessary for the conditioned soul to forget krishna, he wants us to be free and he, kindly, gets out from our life to let us imagine to be ourselves god. So when, after millions of life in this world, we express a little desire to come back to vaikuntaloka , maya is in charge for testing us, to know if we are serious, to be sure that we are really determined to quit the material world. So krsna wants you come back to him, but he wants you to be free, convinced and serious so "protect" your chanting, do not make others, annoyed by your practice, doing useless offences.... chant softly, increase your rounds if you can and chant everytime you have your mouth not engaged in eating or speaking if you became a devotee, you'll be happy and your happiness will attract others to practice krsna consciousness to became themselves happy like you this basically is preaching as an acharya, with the behaviour, the example, not necessarily with the words

prabhu, please take my opinions as inspirated by your messages and not critics: We have seen so many examples of devotees with positions of power (who were considered "pure" by their disciples and peers) who abused their positions of power ••••if you are speaking of fallen gurus, simply they were not uttama adhikari and the falling in these cases is automatic... if you speak of managers it is simple, they were not making their karma ... in italy between temple presidents we had musicians, singers, truck drivers, hippies/beggars, cooks, architects and so on... it is a miracle if we have still some very nice hare krishna temples with so few real managers. So, whether one enters politics as a Vaishnava, or is introduced to Vaishnavism while already situated in politics, being pure would seem to be a prerequisite. •••it would be very nice, but even a neophite has to execute his karma in krsna consciousness, otherwise how he can advance? so the politician who accepts krsna consciousness obviously accept a spiritual master (or there's no question of krsna consciousness!), and this master will be the guide of this ksatrya neophite in devotion on how to trasform his karma in bhakti. I repeat, we cannot stop our activities waiting to be pure devotees, because if we do not act there's no advancement Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. A devotee politician, if he is not pure, could conceivably cause more harm than good. •••and this is very true, but remember the function of the spiritual master and remember also that the morality and advancement necessary to do the ordinary political jobs is not so esoteric, If a good and moral man or woman, who is already an honest deputee, a mayor, a senator, a militar accepts the guide af a vaishnava there's the hope that he will increase his morality very easily. Ok it would be very nice to be already all pure devotees and start cook, make puja, sing bhajans, write books, be farmers, sweepers, employees, managers, politicians and so on... but it is not possible and the activities are necessary to make spiritual advancement acting is necessary for spiritual advancement, so we have to do our job given by the natural laws if we are advanced, not advanced, neophites etc. But again, I qualify this statement by saying that yes, we should still preach to everyone, including politicians, and hope that they become pure devotees, and hope that if they are not yet pure, that they will seek counsel from those who are. I would absolutely love to see pure Vaishnavas engaged effect positive changes via politics. I am not opposed to this happening ••••yes,, we completely agree, i know it , i only wanted to give my opinion Hence, my position is that we preach, but at the same time, keep a cool head and depend upon Krsna, no matter how unfavorable external circumstances seem to be. •••agree, i want only to remember that "depend upon krsna" has to be interpreted in the "arjuna's way".. to devote our karma (given by krsna) to krishna.. all the "old" mistakes and maybe all the future ones depend from not to execute our natural duties. If we start to implement this basic principle of the varnashrama dharma, as arjuna learns by krsna in bhagavad gita, we will be happy and the world will be happy very soon, and the politicians, policemen, presidents, ministers will come with us seeing that their activity will be the key to quit the bondage of the material world, not that, as in many religions, the priests have a "bonus" or there's a strong artificial discrimination between to pray and to act

"As for someone's guru not agreeing with neophytes chanting the names of Gauranga and Nityananda in the beginning, please ask your respectable Guru Maharaj to open Caitanya Caritamrta, and read the following purport by Srila Prabhupada" •••hare krishna prabhu, better not to answer in that way, especially to one who was respectiful and happy of the existence of the site and of the devotees connected with it. So, there's basically no problem in the way you chant the names of the lord and at wich stage you chant gauranga and at wich stage you chant hare krishna, everything is pure transcendental bliss, but there's no doubt that prabhupada started his mission in the west chanting hare krishna alone, than with absolute neophytes, in the tompkins square park N.Y. and there's no doubt that my guru maharaja Srila BhaktVaibhava Puri Maharaja (disciple of srila bhaktisiddhanta sarasvati goswami) one of the most senior and respected vaishnavas in the world, recommends to everyone to chant constantly hare krishna mahamantra at any stage of spiritual advancement.. so please do not be offensive to counteract imaginary offenses :-) and please accept this absolutely harmless difference of opinion between us and, in my opinion, surely believe that if you push too much on this point you will not have any creative exchange with the 99.99999999% of the vaishnavas in the world

I get confused about preaching because I was reading that people that know about Krishna but do not preach are condemned by Prabhupada •••the word preaching has a very broad sense, basically we preach living our life in a krsna conscious way and givin the example of being a very happy, moral, helpful, compassionate person... this is mostly "preaching".. if we get krsna conscious we are automatically preaching, the people see us and they ask themselves why we are so happy... then they ask to us and we can speak but at the same time you are not supposed to preach to people that don't want to hear it •••yes.. even if we reduce the preaching as mere "speaking", it is a very difficult art.. it is our own important responsability to understand when it is possible to speak and what it is possible and useful to say according guna and karma of whom we are "preaching"... all the useless offence they do caused by our wrong preaching fall entirely on our head I try to mention even some of this stuff to my family members and they sometimes get mad so I give up preaching, is that alright? •••if they get mad, it is possible that it is not all their faults.. so better, for now, to give up "speaking" (not "preaching", if they got angry it was not a preaching)... better to advance in krsna consciousness, to be a better person and they will see it.. this is preaching I don't preach about Krishna to them I just try to get them to follow regulative principles if at all possible. •••aarghh!! :-)... wich regulative principles? they do not know or they do not accept the reason to do it! only you have voluntarily and freely accepted krsna consciousness, or you are beginning to do it, so you have to follow... but if they see you happy (so check constantly if you're happy!) they will do what you are doing to be happy like you chanting hare krsna (the most important thing, the eessence and the goal of following any principle or behaviour) and maybe doing the other connected activities

"I think we are in agreement here. :-)" ••and this makes me very happy!! my obeisances...

Most of your rebuttals to my comments, I hate to say, are strawmen. You have made many incorrect assumptions concerning my statements on the topic in which we are discussing •••i am the most bad living entity of the world, maybe the only one without soul but our discussion is started from this: 1) a pure Vaishnava is probably not at all inclined to enter into politics. And 2) a devotee who is interested in politics and is successful in being elected, should seek counsel from superior Vaishnavas. .... following with other assertions like: "And here you make my point for me. Do we have enough qualified leaders with sufficient bhakti who can lead the world in social and political situations?" ...... for my perception all these statements show an idea of a solution of the various bad things in the world and of some problems in our movement, based on the religious organization, the church, the temple, the priestly status and so on... my point is the exact opposite: 1) a pure Vaishnava is probably not at all inclined to enter into politics..... my answer is that one who is for karma a politician starts to chant hare krishna, take initiation from an uttama adhikari, begins to offer the results of his activities to krsna and gets pure devotion turning his political job in devotional service. it is not that we have already devotees doing other activities and for the decree of the organisation.. "stop to be a pujari or a book distributor... now you are a politician" and also: "" Do we have enough qualified leaders with sufficient bhakti who can lead the world in social and political situations?"... my answer is that the leaders have already their karma and they are already making devotional service through karma yoga using their natural skills to do what they are already doing. The hare krishnas, iskcon, other maths etc, as spiritual brahminical organizations, have basically to spread the holy name .... than the people who accepts it, without changing their karma status, start to making devotional service changing the spirit not the activities. No leader of a spiritual organization, supposed to be like a priest, a bishop, a pope.. a brahmin, sannyasi etc... has to change his status to make the service of a ksatrya, politician, policeman, soldier etc. First you say we aren't in an emergency state, then you say we are •••we aren't in the emergency that praphupada had, to show in a few years how a spiritual organisation works with the need to build all the roles and structure connected with it... but our world is surely in emergency and needs surely a big injection of krsna consciousness, and the revolution now is no more centered on the temple expansion and the icreasing of the number of his inhabitants, but in the developing of varnashrama... that is natural: "have you the tendency to be a brahmana, vaisya, ksatrya, sudra... no problem, add hare krishna and your life will be sublime and that's all" (implementing Varnashrama within the Temple communities (which was something which Srila Prabhupada ultimately wanted) •••i do not thing it is exact... prabhupada wanted to build communities based on agricultural work... vaisya.. rural communities. Some devotees with this karma reunite themselves in a village or so and start their single activities with moments of mutual helping in periods of extraordinary work. So naturally in this village or community the varnashrama starts to develope... not everyone will have the skills to manage, so someone will be a sudra working in the field of others... when the things will be developed someone will come in this village selling food, clothes, ice cream, rasagullas.. they will call a brahmin to start a new temple and doing gurukula... and so on... then policemen, government, mayor(ksatryas) etc it is not that it has to be developed in the temple community... the word temple community is in itself strange... community is made with all the varnas, a temple is made by brahmanas. "we have failed for the most part. Women, children, devotees in general, and even the cows, have suffered much abuse. This is a symptom that we are lacking in qualified leaders who are fully Krsna Conscious" •••yes.. and the most important thing that maybe leaders, showing that they're not qualified, have not said, that there's no need to be in the temple to be krsna conscious, but as the opposite, it is impossible to be krsna conscious if we do not perform the devotional service in our natural social position given by the karma laws who are krsna's laws so, summing the points, it does not seems to me that i am commenting your assertions out of context, or that i am uselessly opposing to you or so.. it seems to me that we have a very different opinion... but please correct me if you think that i am wrong "but as it stands now, we are still in short supply of pure devotees who would enter the political arena and manage the masses" •••that's the sensible point.... no devotee has to enter in political arena if he's not already there!! but we have to do our best, preaching in the priestly way if we are brahmanas, preaching mostly with the example if we are another class, that everyone in any social position meets the holy name and if he's already a politician he will start to render service in this way However, the discussion was originally concerning devotees entering politics to save the world, and one person here seemed to feel that it was the highest form of preaching. •••if this is the relevant subject i do not think that anyone has to enter in any activity that he's not already doing, and i think that the highest form of preaching is to making devotional service from our previous material activities, this is saving the world... not doing one specifical job that we will not be able to turn in devotional service simply because we are going agaist our karma ..... but ultimately i am sorry if i annoyed you even if it was not my intention.. please excuse me

many thanks for your infinite mercy

than you for your reply, although i am a bit dissapointed in your approach to philosophical debate,when debating tattva jnana it is required that one present relevent citations from guru ,sastra and sadhu,otherwise ones own interpretation is not accepted as bona fide without a source. ••• Oh.. haribolo prabhu...this is a discussion trick and you are trying to use it as a weapon.. two things to say 1)logic is important, we are speaking in front of people who knows the basic and there's not ever the need to bring the citation where prabhupada says "chant hare krishna and be happy 2)i think you are the one who supports my statements, in this and the other discussion in my opinion you have brought citations supporting my opinions not yours. So if you like citations i have them: your ones.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif prabhupada:"As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. THEY ARE INDENTICAL. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. •••all the vedic and vaishnava theory say to us that the incarnations of god are complete personalities, not simply a mirror of krishna.. so this comparing of radhe with the vishnu tattvas is in itself a demonstration that radhe is a person and their expansions are persons IDENTICAL means that all the subject who have this quality are existing, not that one exists and the others are illusions, dreams and so on "It is not that Radharani is separate from Krishna. Radharani is also Krishna, for there is no difference between the energy and the energetic." •••the instruction has to be viewed in the context... if you say to me that krsna is a reality and radha comes from outside, or that she is a simple jiva or an expansion of another person i say to you that it is not true and there's no difference between radha and krsna... but if you say that radhe, in being "also krishna" has not personality, autonomy, freedom i have to answer to you in a different way... she's an energy but she's also a subject We also are energies of krishna, we are separated in a sense and united to krishna in another... i am a complete person, i have the supreme freedom to realtionate with krsna with the fullness of my exclusive personality and radha not? radharani is not a person? Bhaktivinoda says that when we say the energy...... bhaktivinoda takura: ""When it is said that the potency has pure consciousness, that means that because the potency and the master of potencies are NOT DIFFERENT, therefore, like the master of potencies, the potency also has a form of spiritual consciousness, has desires that are at once fulfilled, and is beyond the touch of the three modes." •••these two aspects of the oneness and separation are perfectly harmonized.. the potency has consciousness because she and the master of potency are not different.. but the master and the potency also have a form of spiritual consciousness. This phrase "form of spiritual consciousness" or "sat cit ananda rupa" means that both radha and krsna are complete and real personalities... so the oneness between krsna and radha is a reality and the differentiation between krsna and radha is a reality... so, if we want to grasp a little of the radha krsna tattva we have to accept these apparent contraddictions. Radha s non different by krsna and different at the same time, and this condition is to increase their lila all your citations have to be viewed in their context and surely they answer to a material tendency to view the radha and krsna relationship as material, so one has to say : they are the same but it happens also with us... are we different to krsna or non different? as chaitanya mahaprabhu says we are unconceivably (acynthia) different and non different, we are parts and parcels of krsna and individuals, atoms and individuals at the same time "krsna enchants the whole world but srimati radhika enchants even him, Therefore Radha is the supreme goddess (cc adi 4.95)" "srimati radharani is the center of all vrindavana activities. In vrindavana krsna is the instrument of srimati radharani; therefore all the inhabitants of vrindavan still chant "jaya radhe". from krsna's own statement given herein, it appears that radharani is the queen of vrindavana and that krsna is simply her decoration (cc madya 11.150)" am i saying with these citations that radha is the absolute truth and krsna is emanating by her or that he's also a decoration of her? no.. the literal and the energetic aspects have to be reconciled not to be gross materialist or impersonalists i think, as in the guru tattva discussion, that your tendency to find an "essence" an "ultimate truth" in realities of the spiritual world that they are in itself "ultimate truth" without nothing beyond, is somewhat excessive because, in my poor opinion, maybe it seems to show a conception where only the existence of krishna is real and the others are illusory, a conception where krsna syamasundar is alone in the universe living all the rasas with people who has not a real and complete existence in a sort of imaginary dream. (i do not think that you are wrong, i do not know you, i think only that making a few of steps starting from some of your messages there's a danger to understand the truth in an impersonal way...: " the only real existence is the ONE, others are maya")

why have you stated that the "answer is Varnashrama", which of course includes the brahminical class, which you have in turn stated is a "materialist." •••because everyone with any karma and guna combination can devote himself and his acivities to krsna.. this is devotion.. not that only the traditional priest or preacher who belongs to the brahmin cathegory can be fully krsna conscious, this is the material conception, not that brahmin is a materialist class But the real question is, are we not yet still in a state of emergency? •••no, the emergency where anyone has to go to the temple and leave his social duties to became a vaishnava is definitely ended. There's an emergency with a world rolling with great speed to hell, but this has to be counteracted estabilishing the krsna consciousness in the society If we cannot even properly manage our Temples with their small congregations, then how can we reasonably assume that we are now ready to manage millions of people, non-devotees included, from high government positions? ••i do not see these things as a matter for the organizations or as a program for building a new class of ksatryas with stages and schools inside the temples, congregations and so on. If we preach with the example that to be krishna conscious makes us happy, people with political aspirations and skills will start chanting hare krishna, they will bring their spiritual education and realization in their life and activity... exactly like an employee, a sweeper, a farmer and so on. When the devotee in the given example "plans" to be a king, prabhupada does not say "i will be the emperor", he says "i will be your spiritual master"... so everyone serves in his karma (obviously prabhupada is not limited in his action by any varna affiliation... but he acts properly as a sannyasa brahmin) The devotee organizations, maths, temples are technically brahmanas, the "private" householder devotees do other jobs in other varnas, there's no need of an iskcon political party or similar Do we have enough qualified leaders with sufficient bhakti who can lead the world in social and political situations? ••.as i have said it is not a iskcon/math/church problem... we do not have to twist the svadharma of who is already making devotional service, we have to spread the holy name and krsna will send us a great politician who will do his job in a krsna conscious way. We did not make music courses to produce a beatles-like band to sing "my sweet lord", we chanted hare krishna and bhakta george harrison heard it, and inspied by chatya guru and by his incarnation srila prabhupada, accepted devotional service and performed him according his karma and guna how many devotees are actually pure and qualified to institute Varnashrama in the manner in which you suggested? ••so what to do? everyone escaping from home and go living in the temple? simply we have to add hare krishna to the lifes we are already living.. this is varnashrama, not a thing that has to be "instituted" Let's first see if we can implement it within our Temples, which thus far we have been unable to do •••let's first became krsna conscious chanting hare krishna in the position given by us by the laws of nature created and sustained by sri krsna bhagavan, this is varnashrama, there's not separated efforts to do... in this way everything will grow up in an armonic and natural way. If we have problems now it is 1)because we have not followed the advice of the acharyas and the vaishnavas 2)because we have artificially acted as brahmachary, sannyasi, vanaprasta and brahmanas even if we were grihastas, sudra, vaisha and ksatrya. The real service is to devote ourselves to krsna, not to change in some concocted way our personality to make a service not right for us After that, if there is success, then we can talk about placing pure devotees in high government positions. •••again you're treating this subject as an organization problem or a collective matter..... more simply, if you have the karma to be a musician you will turn it in karma bhakti yoga playing and singing for kishna, if your karma is to be a sweeper you'll be a sweeper for krishna, if you're a politician you will be a politician for krsna. The problem is that, believing that we are in "that" kind of emergency, we show the temple brahmana as the only possible kind of devotee and the religious organization or the ashram as the only possible kind of devotional life.. it is not surprising that we are full of frustrated "non brahmins" and lacking of any godbrother in a social relevant position. Hari bol. Please excuse any offense I might have committed. •••oh, no offense, you are a vaishnava and you are preaching krsna consciousness... there's no harm in krsna katha

"When it is said that the potency has pure consciousness, that means that because the potency and the master of potencies are NOT DIFFERENT, therefore, like the master of potencies, the potency also has a form of spiritual consciousness, has desires that are at once fulfilled, and is beyond the touch of the three modes. •••prabhu i am sorry, but we are approaching the same kind of debate we did about the spiritual master... baktivinoda takura here does not say that radhe is not an individual, a person.. the takura says that radhe derives his exixtence and power from krishna. Another sign is that it is used the term NON DIFFERENT, that , technically is not exactly as to say THEY ARE THE SAME THING, OBJECT, PERSON, IDENTITY and so on. More subtlety is required.. inconceivable is the exact term, radhe is an energy, but the energies are svarupas, persons, personalities.. this is the "form of spiritual consciousness," that bhaktivinoda thakura is speaking of For example, you have power, and by Your will, your potencies act. If you say, 'the power acted', then that means that the possessor of the power was actually behind the action. •••this in the material world... in the spiritual world the thing is inconceivably more complex.. the owner of the shakti acts, but also the shakti in herself acts.. because she's also a purusha, an individual, full realized and full of freedom... simply we do not understand it fully.. we oscillate between materialism (they're humans) or impersonalism (there's a reality beyond the forms) To say that 'the power acted' is only to use a figure of speech. •••in the spiritual wold the powers are persons.. "form of spiritual consciousness" as bhaktivinoda takura says, form means individual, person and consciousness means personality, life, autonomy, freedom but there is an internal reality and an external reality, •••in the spiritual realm there's not internal or external, everything is spiritual, there's not material cover and spiritual core.. so radha and krsna are the supreme girl and the supreme boy and also energy and energetic and there's no superior or inferior perception. To say that the boy/girl is the only aspect is to say that radhakrsna are human and it is gross materialism, to say that this girl/boy aspect is external or illusory is impersonalism/mayavadism the reality that is hidden,they are one and the same person,even though the external lila is real,the true nature of that lila is understood when the inner reality is understood. •••agree, but it is more a technical question.. to say that radha as transcendental girl of krsna is as intimate, true and right than to say that she's representing the hladini shakti... ther's not an really external meaning and an inner meaning, both are inner. In the spiritual world there's not the reality and the illusion, everything is real

it is a very nice transcendental story... we became 60% krsna conscious for the mercy of the spiritual master, then the other 40% is directly in charge of him... "60% is a "D." ha Not the best grade, but 'technically' passing" •••yes, i cannot judge any devotional position but i think that it is a great realization.. TECNICAL... we are requested to do well our duties, to express in this way the desire to go back to godhead.. then the spiritual master gives the realization, the skills, the drarshan of sri krishna... we are not able to achieve ever a little bit of real and experienced krsna consciousness, we can only desire.. and also the desire is a blessing of guru and gauranga, because the maximum we can do is desire to desire.. in my opinion this story is extremely important... many thanks

So here we have the tattva,if we view rasa lila with this in mind it is all illogical,How can Radha have a relationship with Krsna when they are the same person ? ••because in the spiritual realm the concepts, the energies are not abstract.. so the hladini shakti is an internal energy of krishna and a complete separate individual with a full real autonomy and freedom < < < to me this is all ridiculous,none of those topics when taken literally make any sense,in fact they have another deeper message, and yet devotees in the face of logic and reason will insist that the literal is the highest understanding, they insist that what is described is all there is,Radha loves Krsna,the gopis love Krsna,Sri Caitanya needs to incarnate to taste what Radha tastes etc,etc,etc. In the face of constant contradiction the tendency is there to revert to the "unknowable", " oh,these things are acintya, they are beyond our ability to understand" i have been informed. Actually they are acintya if you take the literal descriptions as being the final word,then the impossible can be written off as inconcievable,unknowable,beyond our understanding. •••and you are right... but in the inconcievable quality of these lilas there's also the fact that the radha really loves krsna and that krsna needs really to incarnate in chaitanya to taste whata radharani tastes it is very difficul to understand and explain, but there's truth in the literal and also in the symbolic position.... krsna is not an ignorant human being that has the need to understand something by a new life's experience, but surely the krsna lilas are not only a display or a theater... the things are really happening. One asked to prabhupada: "can krsna create a weight that he cannot lift?" prabhupada answered "yes he can... then he lift". So krsna knows everything of radha. being her his potency, but, impossible to us to understand even if a little bit, He creates for Himself a space to "advance in krishna consciousness" to increase his transcendental bliss. So he came as Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.. < < < < there's two deviations ready for us to fall in: 1)the "literalist" can become a materialist thinking that there's no difference from the human activities and the divine ones 2)the "anti-literalist" can become a mayavadi thinking that the reality of the lilas ... is not real

oh.. no mataji prabhu.. now it is 12.10 p.m.!! (12.10.. not 00.10) happy new year to you and all your family and friends, please pray srila prabhupada to make me chant hare krishna until the end of life and in the next one /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif