yasodanandana

the thing is very simple, krsna consciousness is basically: tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darshinah Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth. One has simply to go with his bag of karma and guna to the pure vaishnava master and ask: "i want to surrender to krishna, this is what i have to offer, what do i have to do?". Moral rules are surely there, the advice to make less karma as possible if we want to practice bhakti is there and right, but the success in krsna consciousness ultimately depends from gurudeva's and krsna's mercy not from some social behaviour. In one letter written to narayana maharaja, prabhupada, before going in USA, says to be ready to allow meat eating to his future western followers if it would have been necessary to build the movement and some years after, lilamrita, sending harikesha swami to the eastern european countries "if you have nothing to eat, eat meat, no problem, preaching is more important (or something like that)" So everything starts from surrendering not from our material and social arrangements, if we surrender, like arjuna did accepting to make the war and kill personally some millions of people, our karma will soon turn in karma bhakti yoga... if we are extremely accurate in avoiding to produce karma but we do not surrender, we remain in the material world. "Being a butcher and a devotee" why not? (in my opinion)

if we do not offer ourselves to krsna, what else remains to offer? this is the essence of bhagavad gita. So in my opinion pray krsna to send you a pure uttama adhikari spiritual master and chant hare krishna under his guidance, in this way your karma will turn in karma yoga and your work will turn in devotional service. it is not really possible to do separated efforts to change our character, behaviour, destiny, karma.. it is not possible to repress our nature... only krsna can change it. So the preminence has to be given to the practising of krishna consciousness, the improvements in our charachter and behaviour will follow automatically. Your work/service is very useful to the society. in my opinion

"So then would it follow that mere Brahman realization is not only a partial realization of God but also of ourselves, our own true nature? " every realization of god is necessarily a realization of our nature but brahman is a partial realization of both natures, our's and god's, because in brahman there's no variety we are active by nature, the source of activity is desire, and desire comes from an object who attracts the mind of a subject through the subject's senses if we realize bhagavan, there's no problem, this is our natural condition, krsna is the all attractive, our senses are attracted by krsna, and this attraction generates various actions, behaviours and feelings: loving exchanges, services, relationships, collaboration between souls to serve krsna, separation and hiding by krsna to increase desire, our sadness because krsna has disappeared and so on if we realize brahman we became one with the whole. to be one means that we perceive only our existence, a big, peaceful, omnipervasive WHOLE that, for some time gives to us the satisfaction of the peace. all problems are at end, there's no more death, no more diseases, no more pain or sorrow, no more quarrelling, no fear, no need, no old age, no problems from the weather, nothing at all, we perceive us as the whole without nothing else.. the only reality is ME, the only existence is ME but, as we have already said, we are ontologically active... and to act we need to desire, and to desire there must be a desire object.. but we perceive only oneness, we are lonely, so we have nothing to desire, there's nothing, that capturing our senses, gives to us a reason to act, to work, to struggle to obtain it as an example when we get out from an illness, from the hospital, it is in itself very nice for a while, but soon we have to use our health to enjoy ourselves in some way, otherwise the satisfaction to be safe and healthy is forgotten very quickly... if our disease were from something like intoxication or risky games or dangerous sexual behaviour or unhealty alimentation or something like that, it is possible that, bored by the inactivity, we choose to come back doing the actions who have caused the disease. We were in the drugs, it was very painful, we have done a big struggle to get out, but we cannot bear for a long time the boring condition of inactivity... very soon we come back to the drugs to get a little satisfaction that we judge much times better than living without problems but also without pleasure Because for us to avoid sorrows is not enough, we want satisfaction... In this way who has realized the impersonal brahman, even if brahman is absolute, even if brahman is also our nature, after some time he comes back in the material world to be attracted by some senses object, to desire, and to act to fulfill this desire... even if he knows that he has struggled so much time to escape all this mess and go in impersonal brahman... do you agree? (if i have made mistakes, please correct me... sorry for my ugly english, i am struggling hard to organize decent explanations with the few words and gramatical rules i know.. please be merciful)

because krishna does not give you what you do not desire, he respects us you want krishna? he gives krishna you want narasimha? he gives narasimha you want brahman? he gives brahman the problem is that we are active and we do not resist to sleep eternally in brahman, so we come back in the material world to make some activity

"I am under the impression that the form spiritual bodies "take on" is due to the mood of love for Krishna that soul is expressing" relatioships are infinitely various, forms are also infinite and surely they depends from krsna's desire, that's the supreme controller, the important thing is that we remember that we are eternally spiritual forms... we do not "take" any body when we go back to godhead "So then it is something like putting on a space suit when we go to another planet or a diving suit for underwater. We must take on an artifical form for experiencing an alien atmosphere. Like that? The material world being the alien enviroment." yes, this world is so alien and unfit for us that we die after some years of living there /images/graemlins/smile.gif "Am I correct in thinking the variety of form in the spiritual world is due to the variety of loving moods expressed to Krishna from the minute souls?" surely yes, everything in the spiritual world is dictated by love between god and devotees, forms, personalities, actions, propensities exist only to please krishna

in spiritual realm there's no difference between internal and external, deep and surface, soul and body so we ARE eternally spiritual bodies, we never lose "them", but we do not manifest ourselves as spiritual bodies in the material world... or it is possible to say that we put over the spiritual body, the materal one like wearing a suit, a dress. bodies are infinitely various in the spiritual world, but they are all equally SAT(eternal)CIT(conscious)ANANDA(blissful).. so a "tree" enjoys the spiritual world and the association with krsna and devotees exactly like a "human" or a "rock" or a "bird" "Also, then what would the difference be, between our (spiritual body) and Krishna?" no real difference... the essential one is that our shaktis and siddhis are given and mantained by krsna, not by ourselves... because we are emanations of krsna " I read that Uddhava had a simliar bodily features to krishna" yes.. it is true "and I know that we are ONE entity and Krishna is everywhere" we are also "pervasive".. we extend our influence, life, personality out of our gross body, in other people, in the environment, in objects even in the material world. But simultaneously we remain single persons, well localizated and identified. In the spiritual realm it is more complicated (and less understandable by us) because the three kinds of existence of god (bhagavan, paramatma, brahman) interact variously and inconceivably between themselves (yasoda mata sees the universe in the mouth of krishna and sees herself looking in the mouth of krishna) but indeed krsna has a personal identity, we have a personal identity and we can interact with krishna not losing a bit of our personality

a devotee knows that the money from his mission comes from krsna's mercy, not from gambling.. guru and gambling, or devotee and sin are words that do not go together, like dirty and clean, pure and contaminated, dark and light, wet and dry so a guru who engage himself in gambling is not a guru, is not empowered by krishna, he does not know past, present and future, so he does not know the results of horseraces (gambling is not only when we are not sure of the results, gambling is where the relation between work and earning is not proportional.. when there's a prize not a proportionate and right payment.. so horse races are gambling and sinful even if you know the winner before)

"Do pure devotees know past/present/futures just like Krsna?" trough them krsna himself speaks... we call them "transparent mediums" "If so it would be interesting, to refute ppls who might say Prabhupada purports were 'for not this time blah blah'" this is not a decision to be taken by ourselves, everyone has to surrender to a pure vaishnava and this vaishnava will teach sometimes saying absolute, timeless, principles, sometimes instructing according time, place and circumstance and our present guna and karma. Prabhupada is teaching to us eternally, like Bhaktisiddhanta, Bhaktivinoda, Six Goswamis and so on but sometimes He has given different answer to the same question in different times to different people. so: 1)the pure devotee make mistakes or 2)one of the quality of the pure devotee is the perfect sense of opportunity also when giving instructions on the same subject i choose number 2 in conclusion: Bhakti and devotees comments on scriptures is an eternal flowing of nectar... there's not any possibility to find faults in Prabhupada purports on revealed scriptures

nice, sincere and well written posts... but sad in my opinion, very sad.. but i hope that theist will come back giving his association to us

"H" in Hare: sometimes dropped "A" in Hare: sometimes sounds like "O" as in Lorry; should be "uh" as in Hurry. "R" in Hare: sometimes sounds more like "D" "E" in Hare: sometimes sounds like "I" as in Bit; should be "ay" as in Ray. "K" in Krishna: sometimes sounds more like "G" in Grip. "R" in Krishna: sometimes dropped: "Kishna" "N" in Krishna: sometimes dropped: "Krisha" "A" in Krishna: is sometimes run together with the next Hare: "Krishna-ray" it is so nice to be ITALIAN /images/graemlins/smile.gif !

tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darshinah Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth. . . . i do not find the matter so difficult... chanting hare krishna is asking service, from guruvastakam we know that we serve krishna through the spiritual master, who serves the gopis, who serve radharani, so if our chanting is sincere krsna will soon send us a pure uttama adhikari spiritual master to take siksa and diksa. We make often a lot of mental speculation because we simply do not like to be personally chastized by a vaishnava in our same plane of existence, so we say to be disciples of a departed acharya, we say that we serve krishna also without initiation and so on.. chanting hare krishna does not need anything to be activated, but chanting brings naturally and harmonically to find a vaishnava representative of the paramatma, who reveals to us what our paramatma wants, things that we cannot know directly, having our connection and communication interrupted by the illusion... maya "A siksa-guru is one who is a transparent medium, offering pure information and knowledge of spiritual value, as given by his/her spiritual master. A diksa-guru is one who is empowered to conduct ritual brahminical initiation. " the same person or exactly the same qualificaton:... who gives siksa knows the spiritual matter, he has realized "brahman" so he can give brahminical status to others by empowering (benedition) and teaching, who gives diksa, has to be situated in spiritual consciousness, brahman, so he can give pure teaching (siksa) to a disciple (sisya) hare krishna... happy gaura purnima to everyone!!!

"After reading the article below I am considering cancelling my trip to India for holy pilgrimage" the holy pilgrimage is not in india... the holy pilgrimage is in vrindavana, mayapour, puri, badrinath, kedarnath, tirupati, ahobilam, dwaraka, ramesvaram and so on india (a word used by muslim invaders to call who were living beyond the (s)indhu river) belongs to the material world (as the article clearly demonstrates).. and there's no holy pilgrimage to do in the material world. caste and sex discrimination is against spirituality, if you, making a pilgrimage in the holy places, get more spiritual strenght you are actually already working for making the world better choose carefully the place you go, pray, study scriptures, see the deities, temples, places, meet devotees, chant hare krishna

Lately I'm wondering a lot about this. Is it absolutely necessary to study the scriptures and all the writings of previous acaryas to figure it all out?! ••yes.. it is essential, noting takes birth from the ignorance. Spiritual realization and knowledge are given by the mercy of krsna and guru, but they do not want us sitting idle waiting for the illumination. I tend to get depressed when I study too much because there's just so many different voices all yelling to be heard and when you are on your own without guidance of a guru or temple authorities it is kind of hard to separate it all from each other ••the key is "without a guidance of a guru", pray krsna to send to you a pure devotee to take shelter, he will easily reconcile alla the different positions you see, or , you think to see, in the spiritual scriptures. Among the multiple ways of spirituality (even inside the same vaishnava schools), he will help you to find yours. Also, the many arguing that I see on forums where devotees hang out tend to make me drift away from KC more than it brings me to it. ••we are a philosophic movement, cultural movement, teological... discussions, exchanging opinions, clarifying doubts is absolutely essential. Fanaticism starts when there's no possibility to discuss the doctrine, when there's ignorance, silence. So do not worry, if there's discussions, and you want to give your opinion do it in a vaishnava way to give the example, to show the right behaviour Shouldn't we just love Krishna with our whole heart without getting caught up in all the theory? ••if we do not study from guru, shastra and tradition who is krishna it is very difficult to develope love for him.. we cannot love a person that we do not know deeply, or that we are not full of the desire to know more and more about him And are there any temples out there where they live thinking this way? •••temples without philosophy and books? who are we worshipping if we do not know him? Or am I just looking too hard and thinking too much? ••oh, no problem, maya is very powerful, she is simply making her job... pray krsna for a spiritual master and go on chanting hare krishna, this is the only medicine

it is very good to have deities at home, a service higly recommended for grihastas.. the most important thing is to avoid to start with a big standard, pujas, offerings with big entusiasm.. then, after a while, bored or tired .. stop so start from the little if you bring krsna in your home you have absolutely to invite often devotees and friends to perform harinama samkirtana in front of Him

in this way the APPARENT (i repeat APPARENT!!!) sectarian conception of the saint Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja is completely and without doubts reconciled with his general and well known uttama adhikari vision the purpose and the meaning of the other his message (the apparently "sectarian" one) is very easily understandable

"Krsna is not as limited and impotent as many seem to think. He is not bound by words and titles and bricks and steel. He is Guru. He is always Guru." ....and he's in the hearts, not in the external organizations

you are a nice devotee of sri krishna, a very rare and valuable person in this world... if you also have some little anarthas and some little mundane enjoyements i do not care and i appreciate you very much... be ever eager and ready to increase your standard and devotional activities but do not let maya say to you: "you are too materialist, you are a farce devotee, be coherent and stop everything" this is the greatest trap.. to stop devotional service because we feel ourselves unfit to do it (pray krishna to send you a pure spiritual master)

this a very nice and constructive way to conduct this discussion... my obeisances to you and all the other devotees who have given their opinions..

oh... many thanks.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

maybe you are speaking mainly of this: "The ISKCON philosophy says a convict is not to be blamed for his crime. It is society that is responsible because it could not impart the right lessons to the sinner. " i think it is not so precise, maybe a misinterpretation of a longer answer given by the devotee in an interview.. who commits a crime is surely personally responsible even if the society (=us) have a greatest part in creating so many gross gratificatory needs that who, for circumstances, has not the possibility to satisfy them honestly, very easily searchs and finds way to do it against any elementary law or dharma but anyway the action of iskcon is absolutely saint and spiritual, we are not ksatryas, who, for their job, are meant to calculate exactly the faults to give the exact penalties (i hope this is the right word)........ we are (or we have to be) brahmanas, soft hearted, we apply the exact system of the acharyas that did not exclude anyone (neither us) from joining the harinama samkirtana.. in italy is extremely difficult to do it.. more than giving some prabhupada's books to some prison's (one.. two..) libraries we have not done anything.. before we had a devotee working as a guard in a very big penitentiary near florence, but now he's no more doing that job

DOES RATIONAL AND CRITICAL THINKING CREATE BAD KARMA? •••any action in the material world creates karma, if you rationalize and if you criticize you will have to remain in this world to be yourself rationalized and criticized IF I WATCH A PARTICULAR MOVIE AND FIND THE ACTING OF THE ACTORS TERRIBLE AND CRITICISE THEIR ACTING IN THE FILMS,DOES IT CREATE BAD KARMA(EVEN THOUGH THEIR ACTING MAY ACTUALLY BE TERRIBLE)? ••watching the movie is creating karma, finding actors terribile creates karma, criticizing them creates karma, going to work to earn money to go to the cinema creates karma, eating chips and pop corns at the cinema creates karma, breathing creates karma, living creates karma THE QUESTION I AM TRYING TO ASK IS THAT IS IT POSSIBLE TO NOT LOSE ONE'S CRITICAL THINKING ABILITY AND AT THE SAME TIME NOT CREATE BAD KARMA? ••the only way is to engage yourself and your abilities in spiritual conscious activities, otherwise you'll create karma, good or bad does not matter too much, even when you are sleeping.. even in coma IS PURELY CRITICAL THINKING WITHOUT MAKING ANY PERSONAL ATTACKS ON THAT PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL BAD KARMA? ••a critic is a personal attack.. big or little

one friend of mine speaking at the telephone has said that i will be soon in the spiritual world if i read and study the 45th verse and comment of 4th canto, 7th chapter of Srimad Bhagavatam by Srila Prabhupada.. i am now very far from my home.. any one with folio can copy and paste verse and purport there for me? of course any comment by the devotees in the forum is not only higly welcomed but necessary many thanks

"My dear Vaishnav friends may now hurl many Vishnu ashtra at me" a real vaishnava is humble, he does not curse anyone only because he has different opinion... and if he does it he's not a real one and krishna gives no help to support his desires and actions (even if i do not agree with you that ultimately all is the same and it is only up to personal feeling)

this episode is also in vedic scriptures with other names used for both adam and eve.. the main different thing with bible is that the episode is not at the start of the creation and it does not have to do with all the world or universe and actually there's not a real start in the times and not a real creation of the worlds, the universes and the living beings in the spiritual world all is eternal, we are eternal, if we do not really die, as the christian churchs agree to say, it is not possible that we really take birth. if we are eternal it is not possible that we are in this way only in one direction in the material world this eternity displays itself in the samsara, an uninterrupted cycle of births and deaths, building and destroying, creation and dissolution so there was not a time where only two humans were existing (we are sorry but this "prison cell world" is constantly full of people who choose to act as rebel towards the absolute) and the bible episodes can be easily reconciled with logic and science if you study vedas, puranas, upanishads, itihasas and so on nothing really different in the fundamentals, but more subtleties, much bigger quantity of informations, more satisfaction for a modern mind jesus christ teachs with his example that we have to make our biggest effort to gain spiritual realization, even coming to the sacrifice of our human life.. so let us do the effort to discover the complete spiritual truth in vedic scriptures and in the connected literature all said by a christian born who does not feels to have really changed or betrayed his roots studying and practising this wonderful culture

as a practising gaudya vaishnava (in the sense that i am not at all realized.. only practising) i'd not find useless these discussions if they were conducted without such hate and defeating spirit. In my opinion, seeing vedic culture as a whole, clearly emerges that krsna is the supreme even if sometimes, for teching different religious practices to people who has "mixed" requests to transcendence (= mixed with material desires) some devatas, shiva, vishnu, avataras, the impersonal brahman and mahajanas take the part of supreme for a particular tasks (yamadutas knows that yamaraja is the supreme lord, in the famous ajamila's story they are surprised when vishnudutas say that he's a servant of sri vishnu) but if, for making an otherwise saint and trancendental discussion we end quarrelling like this, better to stick on the idea that there's something "more" beyond the matter than going in subtleties and offend shiva, vishnu, vaushnavas, shaivites, brahman and param brahman only to push our false egos but if we avoid offences and overheating this discussion is saint because it makes us read, write and remember many pastimes of the supreme personality of godhead and saint devatas and mahatmas so, in my opinion, let us change the spirit or let us stop the subject jaya sri krishna, jaya sri shiva