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About mud

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    the matrix
  1. First of all, thanks for actually starting the book Sonic. I know that you have a tendency to find fault and so this might be a good opportunity to check that tendency and step back and listen to what the author has to say. Think about it AFTER you read it, not during every word, every sentence. Your orientation towards critical, nitpicking, picking apart, etc. takes you way beyond being an analytical thinker to the point where you manifest a kind of bizarre "grumpy old man" quality, with the stubborness of the greatest of donkeys. It only demonstrates that you have reached a conclusion before you started and therefore the font even bothers you! Just give it a try... Read the whole thing, let some in, play around with it in your head for a while and then come visit after a few days of contemplation. If my suspicion that you will not do that is justified, I want to thank you for not degrading the dialog into wild speculation and rumors of what you think about sastra or people who speak on sastra... At least for this one post . Okay, I know you've been going with this "relative" rasa idea for quite a while. Maybe this idea merits some discussion. In this instance you are clarifying the definite words of Prabhupada because you find contradiction between guru and param-guru. Generally in such cases we try to clarify our understanding, rather than the guru's words. So, in that spirit:Brahma is directly shaking hands with Krsna, so I don't know if this could be called an "external" or "relative" relationship. True, it is in relation to his duty in the material world (creating it!), but I think it is significant that Brahma is directly relating with Krsna here. Also, Brahma's relationship during Krsna's vraja pastimes is in relation to the sakha's. While it is true that the activities of the siddha's are difficult to understand, I think your introduction of some concept of "external" rasa is a major stretch. The acarya's don't have a rasa with the material energy! If anything, some of their internal spirit MAY on very rare occasions, come out. But to generalize the whole of their "material" personality as being differen from the internal rasa gives us absolutely no evidence that we can base things on. The external activities cannot change the internal bhava. It sounds like you are saying everything to do with the material world has some sort of masculine "rasa" to it. If so, is BSST manifesting the external bhava of a Nrsimha bhakta because he was fierce in his preaching? And if so, what external rasa designates one's internal rasa? If you do "masculine" work in the material world are you automatically feminine in Goloka? I ask these crazy questions because you have given no solid evidence to tell us why Prabhupada's internal rasa is that of madhurya despite what you call his deference towards sakhya in "material" preaching work. ??????????????????????? Regarding Prabhupada and BSST seeing Brahma differently, this could be an instance like has been described in Babhru's book and suggested by Tripurari Swami of two disciples seeing the guru (in this case the head of the sampradaya) as manifesting their personal ideal. What cha think? That's a nice little harmonizing thought eh?
  2. DUDE! (I'm sorry, Pra-dude) Now I know that you are just trying to drive me crazy. now check this out:
  3. But this is a statement of bhava (some kind). Otherwise "less" is a mundane understanding. Every perfected soul will think their relationship with Krsna is perfect, because it IS perfect FOR THEM.
  4. What is your point? Prabhupada did not request at the end of his life to pass from the world at Radha-kunda, the "holiest" of holy's and the place of madhurya, etc. that you are suggesting he was internally cultivating. Why? For that internal pursuit he could have attained the ideal by leaving at Radha-kunda. Externally (for preaching) he could have made a major statement, something like taking it out of the "grip of immoral men". Imagine, a samadhi of Prabhupada at Radha-kunda and the dent that would have made by Sarasvati Thakur's lineage. But what do we have? Prabhupada's samadhi in Raman-reti, and the great Krsna-Balaram mandir which has successfully popularized that part of Vraja.
  5. Did you know you were in pursuit of madhurya-rasa when (if) you bathed there? I didn't! I knew that bhakti was hard, Sri Radha was most merciful, and hopefully I would get a drop of prema by taking a dip in her holy kunda. I wasn't advanced enough to consider my rasa. I think he was teaching to iskcon that "you need all the help you can get, go on pilgrimage". After all, it is the holiest of places.
  6. Besides the multitude of other signs (and words), here is another. Note that Prabhupada spent his final days in Raman-reti where the cowherds play eternally, and that he desired to go to Govardhan where the priyanarma sakhas and the sakhi's attend to Radha and Krsna. He could have requested to go to Radha-kunda, no?
  7. I agree with you entirely that Radha kunda is a wonderful, powerful, spiritual place of pilgrimage. I don't think you have a good argument here though. Prabhupada is doing as any acarya would do by glorifying the holy place of pilgrimage, and also pointing to the apex of spiritual rasa. But as a sadhaka and acarya it appears more to me that he is setting example, demonstrating the processes of bhakti, etc. That is kind of like saying that he published and commented on Bhagavad Gita, and therefore it is his favorite book. We don't know his internal preferences (bhava) from his speaking about tattva. And I think it is safe to argue that this is how the instructions in Upadesamrta have come across. Everybody I know, including myself have bathed in Radha kunda because it was described as the holiest of holy places and that one would certainly attain prema by bathing there. As a sadhaka, I want that! As a sadhaka-acarya, Prabhupada is teaching that. You have bathed in Radha-kunda, right? Did you immediately poof into a gopi? I went there with the hope that I would immediately poof into a prema-bhakta. Krsna makes us work a little harder than that. But, in the nitya-lila side, yes - a cowherd would not bath in Radha's kunda. In fact, the asta-sakhas have their own kunda's surrounding Syama-kunda, just as the asta-sakhis have their's surrounding Radha-kunda. Sorry, I just don't think you are finding the zinger that you are looking for. Give me a zinger like "I am a gopi" and I'll start to put that on the scale and weigh it as counter-evidence.
  8. Someone asks Prabhupada directly if he is a cowherd boy... He could have said anything! He could have said NO! He could have said "that is a stupid question that you are not advanced enough to ask!" He could have said "no, I am a Rupanuga, which means all manjari's". I think you deserve the C'MON! Like mine is an unreasonable irrational reading of the conversation!? The fact that he answered the way he did is actually quite interesting AND in my estimation another indication of his "liking" of cowherd boys.
  9. To me, this carries more weight than this One is another suggestion of Prabhupada towards sakhya, while exhibiting some humility and avoiding elaboration amongst diciples. The other is disciples making a claim and that suggestion being reinforced by sentiment. Nothing wrong with sentiment towards advanced sadhus, but I find Prabhupada's own suggestion more compelling.
  10. I actually see it as a priyanarma sakha sentiment because this commentary on Prabhupada's prayer from Tripurari Swami makes so much sense to me: It is included in the booklet we're discussing. You are reading the book???
  11. I thought the best use of time was in cultivating bhakti? Exploring the rasa of an acarya just seems like the best use of too much time. You're right, I should get back to all my mundane concerns... But if you think that this is speculation or the business of neophytes, I trust you'll take your advice and not participate anymore? Or, you could join the gopa bhava club - No, seriously. Prabhupada's warnings of jumping ahead of ourselves are hopefully a time limited instruction; I say hopefully because I think he expected us to advance to a point where we could one day discuss such things in the company of advanced sadhaka's for our spiritual enrichment.
  12. NICE!!!! I tried, but this joke you just NAILED! Hey, is Madhuvac like some kind of honey nectar vacuum?
  13. I thought that evolution worked in the opposite way, that we came from the monkeys... I guess your descendents are proving the current theory wrong! That is nowhere near a revelation of madhurya rasa. As others have suggested several times, as the book suggests, all gaudiya vaishnava's in our sampradaya are followers of Rupa. This does not necessitate madhurya rasa. The evidence we have of Prabhupada's relationship with Rupa Goswami while living at Radha-Damodara was in relation to preaching (Prabhupada spoke about getting encouragement by Sri Rupa in dreams to carry out his preaching mission.) Bhajan to Rupa Goswami does not mean madhurya rati and your evidence does not support your specific claim. On the other hand, "Prabhupada said" A LOT and was very specific about sakhya. So let's grow up, out of this monkey's uncle business and start using our finer human intelligence.
  14. Sonic Yogi, do you read what people post? Look at the evidence. Sridhar Maharaj is frustrated because people have some complaint about his opinion. He is preaching against their idiocy. Succumbing to pressure is your reading, and if you have experience of Sridhar Maharaj you should know that he is a harmonizer, not someone who could be controlled by neophytes, but rather a well-wisher. He gives another way that people could consider Prabhupada's rasa because they had mundane vision of the thing, that it is lower, etc. Despite his own clear opinion expressed several times he says "well, here is another way you could think about it". What a wonderful sadhu, teacher, guru. If you are not satisfied he uses his divine wisdom to help you see it another way.
  15. In this discussion it seems like we are coming up with a pretty consistent contention of the idea that sakhya and madhurya don't mix, that there is a large enough distinction between the two that Prabhupada would not be in the "same camp" with his guru, etc. What we do seem to be agreeing on is that Prabhupada expressed his affinity for sakhya bhava enough that it was almost "a given" to many young, inexperienced devotees. We agree that it was "a given" to very experienced sadhus, like Sridhar Maharaj who much more often than not and with much more emphasis than not gave his sakhya opinion of Prabhuapada. So, why don't we consider how sakhya could be harmonized with madhurya? I personally feel that the priyanarma sakha bhava harmonizes many of these arguments about the conflict (not the right word) of two sentiments, sakhya and madhurya. If you haven't read the book, please do, because this is discussed there. Regarding the "same camp as one's guru" idea, I don't see the distance in two of Krsna's devotees participating in the same lila, serving under the same yuthesvari though being in different forms; sakha and sakhi. At some point, this consideration of distance starts to become mundane thinking. Regarding Prabhupada's ecstasy in singing Jaya Radha Madhava; a priyanarma sakha is also arranging for the union of Radha and Madhava, knows Krsna as the gopijana-vallabha, attends Krsna at Govardhan, sees Krsna (and himself) as yasoda-nandana, etc. just like any gopi would. This is not exclusively a madhurya song and can be seen with appreciation from any of the primary braja sentiments. I don't see the conflict.
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