>>>"Iam sorry, Spiritualism starts with Faith and that cannot be rationalized or proven scientifically. The problem with you is you are expecting a result for everything you do.Iam sorry, things are not like it is."
Yes "spiritualism" starts with faith, but should one not expect some kind of result? That seems ignorant and blind. Even Prabhupada said you can judge a thing by its result, and that "blind following is condemned". Faith is only the first step (shraddha, sadhusanga, bhajana kriya, nistha,...etc.). (Maybe the result is one loses all desire for result, did you ever think of that?) But wait a minute...your the devotee and I'm the doubter...why should I have to explain your philosophy to you?
>>>>>"Rational science cannot explain the existance of soul,does that mean there is no soul!"
Who said anything about rational science? I never did. Why are you putting words in my mouth?
>>>>>" I believe that he is perfect and that is why he could change people's lives with chanting and preaching."
How did he change people's lives? This is my doubt. If you would have read my earlier post you would have understood that this is one of my doubts. Look at the quality of Prabhupada's followers. How were they changed? So they adopted a new style of dress, learned to chant in sanskrit, and sold thier books in airports. Where are most of them now? Gone. Sure there was a quantity of people who "converted" for a time, but what is thier quality? Not very impressive if you take Prabhupada's maxim of judging a thing by it's result into account.
>>>>>" Another reason is JUST BECAUSE HE PREACHED KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS AS IT IS(unadulterated)-HE IS PERFECT."
Well now, Prabhupada says he is preaching "as it is" but many other people might disagree. But i don't think I want to go into that right now...needless to say this is just another one of the relative opinions in this material world. All institutional religions claim to have the Truth "as it is", they claim to have a monopoly on the Highest Truths, but that doesn't necissarily make it true.
>>>>>"That is what Srila Prabhupada taught-cultivating pure and unalloyed devotional service to GOD that is Perfect Stage and if one is highly elevated in Krishna Consciousness-He relates with GOD personally-that is where it is complete perfectness and purity..."
Yes this seems to be one of the things Prabhupada taught, and yes he did say it is the "highest". I respect that this is your path, and you have explained to me your faith in it as such.
But lets get back to the my original thought that started this thread...what are your realizations? Are you just in the shraddha stage and feel like you don't need to go beyond it? Are you "saved by faith alone", amen? What are your personal experiences with this path, you and your teachers say is the highest?
>>>>>"...and I believe Prabhupada was a pure soul who taught Krishna Consciousness and Hence He is Perfect, to me."
Ok, he is pure, to you. I'm glad we finally go to that. He is perfect , TO YOU, for you, and in YOUR opinion.
>>>>>"Yes, it holds true for eternity simply he quotes from the Vedas and not his own and the Vedas is true GNANA(Knowledge) that does not change with time."
I would disagree completely. The vedas are written for time place and circumstance. If I were a vaishnava I would explain it like this: "The Vedas contain a message that has essential truth, but it needs to be explained according to time place and circumstance by "expert" guides and teachers." But wait a minute...I'm not a vaishnava. You are supposed to be, but you can only thump the book like a fundamentalist and repeat slogans and cliches.
Now, again, back to this original topic: If I had to interpertet your attitude in light of Madhurya Kadambini, I would say you are kanishtha and just a spiritual infant who can't see past his own blind faith. Your attitude is "My team is the best, and all others are off...". I would suggest to you to keep practicing your path untill you come to the madhyama stage and can preach to others in a way that actually might inspire them...instead of condemning others because they might disgree with your particular doctrine. All great teachers of the worlds Great Traditions have had the ability to teach to others in a way that makes the others feel inspired and energized to take up the practice, not to beat them down and attack them because they have some doubts. I don't think people are doing much good in the world by having this demeaning attitude of "us vs. them" etc. Its not enough to help people spiritually by just asserting the "perfection" and "purity" of one's teacher over others. You have to explain the spiritual life in such a way that people feel encouraged and inspired and INCLUDED, in other words; like a fellow human being. If you can't do that, you are only adding to the discomfort of this dukkhalayam world.
>>>>>"If Prabhupada had adjusted the Vedic knowledge suiting American culture, it would be twisted like any modernized Holy scriptures."
I would disagree. He did ADJUST the teachings in such away as to try to adapt to the American culture. All teachers who want to actually inspire and encourage others do this. An expert can do this with out watering down his message...
He wanted to make it relevant to the practicioner. Its not enough to just say "this is the best" and "believe or perish". Although I am openly critical of some of the ways in which prabhupada taught, I do feel like he was not a total dogmatist and wanted to actually help others (by adapting to the culture to make his teachings relevant). How he did this? Maybe someone else might feel inspired to say...
>>>>>"Vedic knowledge should be taught as it was taught and should not infuse your experience according to Time & Place."
Hmmmm...you don't think all the great spiritual teachers of the world infused thier experience into thier teachings? You are not correct in that assumption. Prabhupada said Sukadeva Gosvami made the teachings of the Bhagavatam sweeter by adding his own touch and realizations to them...in other words, he explained it in his own words according to his realizations. It is not enough to inspire people to just parrot back scripture. Your Krsna Consciousness is supposed to teach personalism; so we are all people. I become inspired by hearing others realizations and life experiences on thier paths. It makes it more real to me, and easier to relate thus causing one to be more inspiried. That is the essence of sadhu-sanga. You don't think prabhupada did this? Your wrong. Just go back and read his books again. He talks about his own life and events of his time etc. He makes it personal to a large degree by talking about his experience. Thats what it means to be a personalist, and just simply, a REAL and genuine human being. A good teacher of any topic gives the message and then always explains how it is relevant to time place and circumstance.
>>>>>"If you think my argument is Dogmatic and Irrational-..."
Yes I do. Yes I do. Yes I do.
>>>>>"then everything existing on this planet at a certain level-is dogmatic and irrational."
???
>>>>>"Please define according to you what is DOGMATIC & RATIONAL? If you think in your mind, following the strict VEDIC scripyure is DOGMATIC and that you need a rational explantion for everything, Iam sorry, sir,..."
Now, of course there are many opinions about what "following the vedic scripture strctly" really means, but of course we know that what you mean is following according to your particular sect and creed. But what do I mean by desiring a rational explaination? I mean an explaination that is non-dogmatic and relavent to my life. Your technique is to simply insist on the superiority of your doctrine, ie. "I have blind faith that my way is the best", but I don't find that very helpful at all. Initially I started this thread to discuss people's realizations. How is thier spiritual practice relevant to me? Can I relate? I wasn't really shooting for a discussion about why you think we should avoid rationality.I was hoping for a personal discussion about real people and real life situations. Personalism. Not dogmatic assertions of blind following. That might be enough for you, but not for me.
>>>>>"On the contrary, VEDIC science is a science and not DOGMATIC."
Ok, now we are back onto my original question again. Thank you. But you are contrditing your self. First you seem to say that no result is required from practice and blind following is the "way". But now you asserting that it is a science. If it is a science, than I would love to hear your results. Science=results. Maybe you have none and you feel you need to over compensate for that in the eyes of others by being a fanatic blind follower?
>>>>>"For me it is not dogmatic and irrational but just a state of mind."
This seems contradictory too. First you said earlier that we "should not infuse your experience " into our teachings, but you are now telling me about your personal experience (which is actually what I was hoping to hear about from people to begin with).
>>>>>"What I meant was,he never compromised on Vedic Scriptures. That is what I meant by NO for an answer, we as human beings have become 8th class men, so selfish and not caring for other beings."
So you are asserting that Prabhupada never "compromised" vedic scripture, which you seem to equate with not interpreting or teaching according to time place and circumstance...right? And you are saying that human beings are not fit to interpret scripture because we're selfish and self centered. Are you saying Prabhupada is an "8th class human being" like us, and thats why he didn't adjust to his time place and circumstance? Before you said you were positive that he was a perfect and pure being. Seems like you are getting a bit toungue tied my friend...no comprendo.
>>>>>"But to advance in krishna Con is not easy,so he was strict and he knew only if you are strict in your lifestyle,can you advance in Krishna CON, hence he might have sounded too irrational."
I am not disputing the strictness of Prabhupada's teachings or practice. I am talking about the results of his teachings on others. Mostly I've seen people like you who can't explain prabhupada's teachings according to the current time place and circumstance in a way that inspires others to take up the practice.
So back again to my original question. What are your realizations, beyond your opinion that Prabhupada is pure and perfect? What are your personal experiences with your particular practice? Are you not a human being with personal experiences? Or do you feel like to become a supreme personalist in Krsna Consciousness you have to negate your personality and pretend like you have no personal experiences? Come on now, lets talk like fellow human beings here. Lets drop all this assertion of right and wrong doctrin and talk about the reality of out lives. Lets be honest with one another. Lets be genuine people...persons. If you have no realizations, I will not judge you but be inspired by your honesty. If you have realizations and can't express them in words, just say so and I will be repectful and appreciative.
I personally have not expericned much realization from the Hare Krsna path and have become doubtful because of that. I'm just being an honest person about it, and was hoping to find other honest people to discuss it with...
shanti
