Redsox Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 Activities such as going to a bar, or binge drinking or meat eating, smoking, any unhealthy activities. Lets say no matter how much you try, you can't give them up. Lets assume an aspiring devotee has these problems and that person struggles with it until the end (until death). Do you think krishna will show compassion on that individual or would that person be cast down into the demonic modes of life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 Activities such as going to a bar, or binge drinking or meat eating, smoking, any unhealthy activities. Lets say no matter how much you try, you can't give them up. Lets assume an aspiring devotee has these problems and that person struggles with it until the end (until death). Do you think krishna will show compassion on that individual or would that person be cast down into the demonic modes of life? Drinking is not good of course. But most devotees fall down because of illicit sex. That's usually the acid test. It's not a matter of dry renunciation, I'm told. The chanting, following the bhakti path, is purifying regardless of the principles. Then gradually one can come to that platform of following them. With the principles, the bhakti process, the chanting is supposedly very powerful. I don't follow it, because the cooking requirements are too complicated and restrictive for a normal lifestyle in this Western culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunanda Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 For sure there is compassion from Krsna as you're chanting His name. Chanting is the most important. I'm myself initiated as a brahmin and it happened that i broke the regulative principles. Then what ? i fall down and i try to go ahead. I keep on my practice, with irregularities but that is life. We should never get discouraged, because it could stop our practice, when practice is the most important... Good luck on the path LOVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 Drinking is not good of course. But most devotees fall down because of illicit sex. That's usually the acid test. And, in some cases (rare, no doubt), devotees become *elevated* because of illicit sex (Bilvamangala Thakur, was it?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 "Judge not lest ye be judged" - Matt 7:6 "So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." - Matt. 27:5-8 Don't hang yourself over your offenses. We also must renounce passing judgement over our own misgivings. Your question speaks to the very core of Christian faith in Jesus. We can't do it on our own. It is Jesus who is the perfect devotee. Everyone else falls down. The saints enter into His perfection and He becomes them. Until such time we seek forgiveness constantly in the form of confession of sin and penance. This mercy is there in the confessional, but the world mocks the catholic practice. When I was a boy, every Saturday afternoon any Catholic church I visited, there would be a long line of people standing in line to go to confession to a priest. Nowadays .. nada .. almost no one goes. But could you actually go to the same confessor week after week and confess the same sin over and over. Or would these people be going to confession every week to receive the grace and strength to make it through another week without surrendering to the same weakness again and again. Go to confession. If not to a priest, to your spiritual master or director and tell him your sins. Remember that Jesus Christ is the "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" Is your sin greater than the "sins of the world"? No. Once forgiven, He can even give you the power to forget your sins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inedible Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 Over time, with practices, your impulses will be transmformed as long as you don't try to fight against them directly. "What you resist, persists" is a famous quote. Most of the time you aren't being asked to give up something that is actually good; it only seems like a good idea at the time. The way to end them is to get to the point where you get a greater satisfaction elsewhere. Even then, you still aren't directly fighting against an old pattern; it just stops making sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sopatel Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 Remember that who you are today is a build up of many many lives and you bring with you a lot of your "gunas" The trick is to realise that you are not perfect and slowly control the senses, a true Krishna devotee doesn't expect liberation but works towards perfecting themselves and leaving it up to Krishna to take them away. Don't feel guilty that you are involved in various acts, understand that step one was recognising that you do perform these acts. Step two would be chanting the lord's name as much as you can. Step three would be realising your moves in life and critiquing your own acts. Step four will be total nuetrality to your acts and the upliftment of your inner soul. Then finally you will attain a love for Krishna that takes you beyond any material enjoyment. Human nature has the capacity and even if you don't reach it in this particular lifetime I am proud you are starting to look at yourself and have critiqued your behaviour. Take it a day at a time, forcing yourself to "quit" is like going cold turkey on smoking or drinking alcohol but slowly manuvering out of these behaviours and performing actual sadhana on your own actions will give you the right or worng answers from within. Other than that we are here for you and I believe you have potential because you were honest in telling us your shortcomings. Jai Shri Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skp Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 Lets assume an aspiring devotee has these problems and that person struggles with it until the end (until death). Do you think krishna will show compassion on that individual or would that person be cast down into the demonic modes of life? When you mention aspiring devotee, that itself indicates that Krishna's mercy is already on that person.. Of course, the person has to try to slowly and steadily improve the gratification such that all the other kinds of enjoyment will lessen their attraction towards them. This takes time for sure, but it has to be tried sincerely and boldly, taking into consideration what are the likes of Krishna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 This stuff all falls away in time. Krsna is very powerful. He makes it all painless. Don't worry. Looking back at what He's been able to accomplish so far with this rogue, I have complete faith that He can conquer me and my peccadillos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanatan Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 I've never been able to give up sex, even though at my age the physical urge is maybe 10% of what it was when I was 30, and the current ability to perform successfully is severely compromised. But you better believe I still check out anything female that crosses my path. That failing has ruined any hopes I ever had to move ahead spiritually, and I've given up any attempts at active sadhana. I still do some practical service, helping to design and build things for the temple, and give some money, but that's it. The positive effect of attempting to follow the regs is that many years of vegetarianism and avoidance of heavy intoxication have made these good habits ingrained, and I never have had a gambler's mentality...the times I did indulge in it I suffered long and heavily for my foolishness, both financially and emotionally, and have never allowed myself to get burned that way again. So, I guess I'm drifting off into a semi-aware old age...tv movies, reading, messing around with cars, staying in touch with friends, devotee and nondevotee, helping out a little at the temple, taking good care of my wife. That's about all. ghari, your posts are always great to read...you've found the pearl beyond price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tackleberry Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 Drinking is not good of course. But most devotees fall down because of illicit sex. That's usually the acid test.It's not a matter of dry renunciation, I'm told. The chanting, following the bhakti path, is purifying regardless of the principles. Then gradually one can come to that platform of following them. With the principles, the bhakti process, the chanting is supposedly very powerful. I don't follow it, because the cooking requirements are too complicated and restrictive for a normal lifestyle in this Western culture. Why is drinking not good, I mean, it's not as bad as meat eating, where you kill animals, directly or otherwise? In any case, it's impossible to give up all these, with or without chanting. I guess certain things will never change, and human nature must be one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 Why is drinking not good, I mean, it's not as bad as meat eating, where you kill animals, directly or otherwise? In any case, it's impossible to give up all these, with or without chanting. I guess certain things will never change, and human nature must be one of those. I have given them up without chanting. But then I regularly attend my Christian church and 'talk to God'. BTW it's not us that 'does' anything. It's the Lord who is the doer. We just put the desire out there and depending on our commitment and sincerity he gives the grace, the mercy to follow through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahak Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 Time comes to play. Words that reflect time are the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. A prime exaqmple of such time-teachings is when he emphasizes "Gradual process" so many times. He also explains the stage of kanistha adhikari, a stage where one still commits offenses, yet has desire for Krsna and acts on such desire (sadhana bhakti). The offensive stage matures to a clearing stage (madhyama adhikari) as a gradual process, not a wall to a room, very fluid. Fluctuation is natural, and Srila Prabhupada counts kanistha adhikaris among the pure vaisnava class of those going back home, back to godhead. Giving up nonsense is never of greater import than never giving up the gradual process of hearing of, chanting about and remembering Sri Visnu. When Rupa Goswami summarised the entire list of sadhana bhakti practices, restrictions, regulations, and cautions, he states that there are only two regulative principles, one, to always remember Krsna, and two, never forget Krsna. All other regs are subservient to these two, and possession of all perfect practices are worth nothing at all without these two. Just dont drop that thread, its the lifeline, hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Time comes to play. Words that reflect time are the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. A prime exaqmple of such time-teachings is when he emphasizes "Gradual process" so many times. He also explains the stage of kanistha adhikari, a stage where one still commits offenses, yet has desire for Krsna and acts on such desire (sadhana bhakti). The offensive stage matures to a clearing stage (madhyama adhikari) as a gradual process, not a wall to a room, very fluid. Fluctuation is natural, and Srila Prabhupada counts kanistha adhikaris among the pure vaisnava class of those going back home, back to godhead. Giving up nonsense is never of greater import than never giving up the gradual process of hearing of, chanting about and remembering Sri Visnu. When Rupa Goswami summarised the entire list of sadhana bhakti practices, restrictions, regulations, and cautions, he states that there are only two regulative principles, one, to always remember Krsna, and two, never forget Krsna. All other regs are subservient to these two, and possession of all perfect practices are worth nothing at all without these two. Just dont drop that thread, its the lifeline, hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa I find following the principles under Christian guidance much much easier. I don't have all these dietary constraints on top of vegetarianism. Don't eat grains cooked by... no mushrooms - no onions - did you wash that pot well enough? Did you wash Krsna's plate before serving out? Was there rennet in that cheese? ... and on and on... it's like prepping for surgery. To twist my life style around to fit that mind field of possible offenses is quite frankly stressfully hellish. No thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seamusjcarroll Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 the conditioned soul , falsly identified, must first take to the process, to hear krishna name , this mercy came from prabhupada, a determind aproach is required , even if you want material success, we all need help , especialy with spiritual life , prabhupada is that help , and we as his deciples must support each other as friends , i would say sin is hard to avoid , but avoid it we must , using god given intelligence, there is no benifit to beat oneself for failiure, Krishna's love is eternal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laulyam Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.20.27-28) jata-sraddho mat-kathasu nirvinnah sarva-karmasu veda duhkhatmakan kaman parityage ‘py anisvarah tato bhajeta mam pritah sraddhalur drdha-niscayah jusamanas ca tan kaman duhkhodarkams ca garhayan A sadhaka who has developed faith in narrations about Me, and who is disgusted with all kinds of fruitive activity, may still be unable to give up material enjoyment and the desire for such enjoyment. Knowing that such so-called pleasures are actually sources of misery he should condemn himself while attempting to enjoy them. Thereafter, in due course of time, he may be able to worship Me with love, faith and fixed determination. Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.20.29-30) proktena bhakti-yogena bhajato masakrn muneh kama hrdayya nasyanti sarve mayi hrdi sthite bhidyate hrdaya-granthis chidyante sarva-samsayah ksiyante casya karmani mayi drste ‘khilatmani When the sadhaka constantly worships me by the metho of bhakti-yoga that I have described, I come and sit in his heart. As soon as I am established there, all material desires and samskaras, the impressions, on which the material desires are based are destroyed. When the sadhaka directly sees Me as Paramatma situated in the hearts of all living entities, the knot of the false ego in his heart is pierced, all of his doubts are cut to pieces, and his desires for fruitive activities are completely eradicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 . Me as Paramatma situated in the hearts of all living entities, the knot of the false ego in his heart is pierced, all of his doubts are cut to pieces, and his desires for fruitive activities are completely eradicated. Is the need to maintain one's material body a material desire? I find the whole process, and I mean the WHOLE process completely impractical for maintaining normal physical existence. This ain't a Vedic culture in case anyobody hasn't noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 what if you are unable to give up those unkrishna conscious activities? concentrate on what you ARE ABLE to do, not on what you can't do. It is just another trick of Maya - "oh, I'm so weak and fallen". Yes, you are weak. yes, you are fallen. Now get off your behind and do something nice for Krsna and His devotees. Be practical! Eventually you will find yourself doing these unwanted things less and less. Focus on the positive. Good luck to you, baba! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 what if you are unable to give up those unkrishna conscious activities? concentrate on what you ARE ABLE to do, not on what you can't do. It is just another trick of Maya - "oh, I'm so weak and fallen". Yes, you are weak. yes, you are fallen. Now get off your behind and do something nice for Krsna and His devotees. Be practical! Eventually you will find yourself doing these unwanted things less and less. Focus on the positive. Good luck to you, baba! Who said anything about weak and fallen. Practicality is the keyword here. Feasability. Not pie in the sky. Stupidly quiting your job, ignoring your ordinary duties to friends and family because you're too busy with all the itsy bitsy rituals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Don't worry, once you know what you did wrong, you will have more difficulty the next time to make the same mistake.......because then you call it a mistake.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanatan Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 I find following the principles under Christian guidance much much easier.I don't have all these dietary constraints on top of vegetarianism. Don't eat grains cooked by... no mushrooms - no onions - did you wash that pot well enough? Did you wash Krsna's plate before serving out? Was there rennet in that cheese? ... and on and on... it's like prepping for surgery. To twist my life style around to fit that mind field of possible offenses is quite frankly stressfully hellish. No thank you. I hear you again, cbrahma. In order to maintain my sanity and balance, I've had to distance myself from all this as well. Of course, there are many who would tell me that I've become an insane materialist, but I really don't care what they think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redsox Posted December 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Stupidly quiting your job, ignoring your ordinary duties to friends and family because you're too busy with all the itsy bitsy rituals. doesn't krishna say something along the lines of "It will be really stupid if you think you will win me over by giving up your prescribed duties while still living in this material world"? By unkrishna conscious activities, I was specifically referring to something like getting drunk or having promiscious sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tackleberry Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 I've tried to give up 'unkrishna' conscious activities, but in vain. Just curious...is it not true that ancient vedic people used to drink and dance, marry lots of times, and so forth. So it seems like there's nothing wrong with enjoyment per se. Even devotees used to drink often, lust after women etc. So maybe, all these are permitted. If at all there are rules, it could be because the vaishnava saints wanted moderation, and didn't want these things to go out of control. What do people think of this? Is it possible to make progress, even though we continue to drink and do other stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja Mathura, India, April 21, 2000 From a Lecture on Prema Vivarta Krishna's prema is completely pure, and it is completely transcendental. The symptom of one who has even a small particle of sraddha is that he will commit himself: "Now I will never give up chanting Hare Krishna. I will not give up saying the names of Krishna - even if someone cuts my body into a thousand pieces." This is the symptom. No matter what, or how many, obstacles come in his path, he will continue his practice of bhakti. On the other hand, some other persons have taken diksa or served their Gurudeva, have taken sannyasa and have preached all over the world for 25 years. But then what happened? For some time they served so nicely, but then they became attracted to a woman, and then they wanted to completely give up all their devotion. They started eating meat and taking liquor, and they stopped chanting. This means they did not even have sraddha. So there is a big difference between 'laukhika sraddha', mundane faith, and paramarthika sraddha, transcendental faith. Paramarthika sraddha means that one has committed himself. Just as the highest stage of prema in Srimati Radhika is permanent, the smallest fraction of that transcendental love, paramarthika sraddha, can also never fade. If it has sprouted in anyone's heart, it will continue to grow, grow, and grow. Prema vivarta is experienced in the association of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His devotees, or in Srimati Radhika and Krishna. Similarly, the smallest experience of prema vivarta is experienced by those who have paramarthika sraddha. This wonderful sraddha is developed by the mercy of Vaisnavas. Of course, without the mercy of Krishna one can never have that sraddha, but we know that Krishna's mercy is always following the mercy of Vaisnavas. Therefore, only one who is fortunate to have pure sadhu-sanga can attain the seed of paramarthika sraddha. Outwardly it may sometimes appear that such a person is not able to properly follow his Gurudeva, or sometimes it may appear that Gurudeva is angry with him, and it may even been seen that they do not have any affection for each other. But no one knows how much prema, love and affection, the disciple has for his Guru, or how much love and affection the Guru has for his disciple. This can never, never change. So many obstacles may come, but this will never stop . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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