sanatan

Thanks, brother Theist...hope it helped a bit. 60 for me this year, and I hear you. The idea of a non-driving lifestyle is a beautifully attractive one...a complete change of perspective. (bhaktatraveler: except for those blasts in my Ferrari. Material-desire fullfillment...Yes!!) Seriously, Prabhupada ruined my material life, starting 40 years ago, and I haven't adjusted either.

Re post #1, Great pic! Perhaps you're mistaking being a cerebral-type person by nature, and enjoying the things that come naturally to such, as the lack of balance or "top-heaviness" you refer to. Maybe start writing your memoirs or a book? Get involved with a small, grassroots KC service project, even if it's just a few hours time or a few bucks donated? Either is a focused way to channel some energy; writing in particular will bring up issues in the subconscious. Your heart, from knowing you online, is probably much more open than you realize...I'd guess you're in a hopefully-passing shutdown mode, as I am. It's "heavy maya", for sure, but I find a blast down the road in my sports car as good as anything to put stuff in perspective.

I see what you're getting at...I can't produce proof to that effect. Similarly, I've produced no proof, even a reliable hint, that Srila Madhvacarya lent his ear to some Christians. Any statement that I ate dog-meat as a child, in the absence of documented evidence or reliable witnesses, is purely hearsay. However, as an aside...though to my own recollection, no one ever fed me meat of dog, I did have a pet dog as a child, and I once tried eating some dog food. It was horrible. And that's straight from the source! Somehow, that's not hard to see at all.

Raghu asked me for evidence, yes. I, having read my assertion from a forgotten source, asked him to assist me by providing some. Perhaps my tone wasn't one of sufficiently polite request; if it wasn't, I apologize to him and any others I offended. As stated in an earlier post, I'd really like to know some answers on the point I brought up. In any case, I got accused of being a "psuedo this-and-that speculator" and other nasty things by many here, the notable exception being Theist, who picked up on where I was going. Yes, many of you remind me of evangelical Christians in your attitude about the absolute superiority of "Vedic culture" and philosophy. Over and out, on this thread.

I questioned, very politely, what you hold to be inviolable, so I'm a "psuedo-Vaisnava mental speculator". You're no better than the Christians.

I'm sure that some, if not many, here are Indian-born. You come from a culture that has been beaten up by Christians for 500 years or so, and is now coming back into its own as miltary, economic, and spiritual power. It's not surprising that you're touchy when someone raises the question to the effect that Christians might have influenced the thinking of one of India's greatest philosophers. They're still over there messing with you, and shouldn't be. I'm USA-born, grew up a semi-believing Christian, and am still struggling to reconcile that upbringing, which was a beating in itself, with the Vedic influences that I encountered as a young man and have shaped my life for many years. Lots of karma, I guess... Mine too. That's all I've been trying to say.

I'm not coming from a pro-Christian position or trying to discredit Srila Madhvacarya. I simply made the comment that I'd read something to effect that Madhvacarya had been influenced by Christian thought in formulating a certain intriguing POV, and that this was plausible in view of a broad historic circumstance, i.e., mobility in the 13th century. Theist seems to be the only person here that picked up on the speculative nature of these posts, and responded accordingly. The rest of you have gotten your feathers ruffled because I suggested that an important Vedic philosopher might have been influenced by Christians. If I asked raghu to cite a source, it was because I'd really like to know the answer.

Can you cite a historical source on this? All I can do offhand is cite hearsay, as I don't remember where I read about the Christians. It does sound plausible from a circumstantial POV, as well-established commercial routes from the Mediterranean to India existed at that time, and Christians have been prosetylizing since "time immemorial".

I do too, brother, believe me. But it's still intriguing, especially since it was proposed by a major saint and acharya, albeit pre-Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in Srila Prabhupada's sampradaya. Madhvacarya was a philosopher and writer, and obviously thought out of the box. This line of reasoning was an extraordinary blip in the history of Indian/Vedic philosophy. I read that he met Christian missionaries, and incorporated some of their doctrines into a logical or reasoned philosophical theory of the "Problem of Evil."

The misapplication of that quote is what made ISKCON what it is, or rather was, during a very unfortunate time. It's totally unreasonable to require young couples to practice "celibate marriage". Celibacy is for old folks like me, who have no choice anyway. With age, the body does lose capabilities, and the mind turns to other topics. If a young person sincerely wants to be celibate, let him or her enter into a true monastic life.

I'm still partial to Srila Madhvacarya's philosophical idea of the Tripartite division of souls or jivas, to wit: A. Nitya Siddha: Purely spiritual and never conditioned, ever. Cannot fall from this position under any circumstance. B. Nitya baddha, ordinary: Regular folks. The vast majority of conditioned Jivas. Never were in position of A's, never will be. I assume animals fall into this category along with human bings. C. Nitya baddha, extra-ordinary: Demons. The Hitlers, serial killers, child molesters, psychopaths, all-round complete incorrigibles and purveyors of misery. Will never rise to the position of B, much less A. The existence of C's as an eternal reality resolves the problem of "evil", as they exist to make life miserable for B's, who are "good" in an ordinary sense. The question: Is there any mobility from B to A, from B to C, or from C to B ? Observation suggests to me that there is some: very little in the B to A, somewhat more in the B to C. If so, is it temporary or eternal? Regarding the possibility of C to A, Bhagavad-gita states that "they © can never approach Me (Krsna)".

I know where you're coming from, my friend. Last couple of years, I've felt a revulsion toward organized religion in any form, ISKCON included. Haven't been to any temple events at all in a long time, though I maintain contact with some devotee friends and have contributed time and money towards a couple of worthy projects. There's an automotive board I hang out on a lot. One of the guys started a prayer group, and I joined. Turns out it's a front for evangelical Christianity, so I'm going to get myself taken off the list. I've been expanding horizons, so to speak, and doing a lot of wide-ranging reading, toying with a bit of writing. Recently read a book called godless. Author Dan Barker is a former long-time evangelical Christian minister, turned atheist. He sings the praises of his new "freethought" life, but it just sounds empty to me. Personally, I think he's in a phase of rejecting his particular brand of Christianity, as he didn't investigate other philosophical schools deeply before "converting" wholeheartedly to atheism. Agree on BG As It Is. I can still open it up and be transported to a world I know exists, but have chosen to ignore. "For the soul, there is never birth nor death...:)"

bija, theist: I very much appreciate your forgiving attitude. Being a jerk is not something that I strive for, but it happens from time to time...more than I'd like. In truth, I've missed this board, and rather than deactivate my account, I''ll try to hang around more. best well wishes...sanatan

I want to extend my apologies to all of you for throwing a nasty and inappropriate note into this thread. Actually, I was going through my list of bookmarked websites and came across this one, and got involved in a couple of discussions for no real reason. Guess my comments reflect my current mental/emotion state...not so hot. I'll contact the moderator and have him/her deactivate my account. Best well wishes...ys, jsa

I'm confused too. Try plain English, BJan. Regarding intellectual capacity, I'm bright enough, but somehow your gibberish isn't registering.

Please tell how I'm mis-interpreting it. If you'd care to do one, I'd like to see a point-by-point refutation.

In abandoning all varieties of religion, and "surrendering" to Krsna, one must simply: -adopt a complete new set of religious practices, more complex in concept and execution than those abandoned. -discard the no-longer-infallible and demonstrably-inferior scriptures of the past variety of religion for a new set of scriptures that are superior and truly infallible, though the events and cosmological notions portrayed therin are often far more wildly improbable and unscientific than those described in the scriptures of former belief. -adopt new personal identity, and a new style of dress at least for religious functions. -agree to follow a complex methodology of life-governing rules, the by-product of most of these being emotional, intellectual, and physical isolation from one's cultural milieu, friends, relatives, spouse or "significant other", and often one's means of livelihood. -submit oneself to the authority of leaders who may be, on one hand, quite fit and honorable representatives of their spiritual tradition; on the other hand, morally-bankrupt shams who are holding onto a job that provides a tenured status and livelihood, with attendant perks and comforts worthy of a U.S. Senator, and adulation from hundreds if not thousands of followers, who have been brainwashed into regarding critical thinking and honest evaluation as "offenses" that can cast one into hell for aeons. (hey, I thought we left that stuff behind with Christianity) With all due repects to Srila Prabhupada, IMO there's plenty to worry about.

send me ten grand and i'll sendya the answer

IMHO, a huge waste of money to propogate prescientific speculation as scientific truth, comparable to the Christian Creationist "Young-Earth" museum here in the USA. Welcome back to 1100 AD. Knowing ISKCON's longstanding dismissive and condescending view toward NASA's achievements, I find it amusing that a NASA image taken from far in space is used in the intro. Leave the task of studying the cosmos and the earth's origin to those best-trained to do so, the much-maligned "material scientists." Spiritual leaders should engage solely in teaching spiritual principles, such as how to love God and treat fellow persons and creatures properly....those go hand in hand, and seem to get brushed aside in the path of projects such as this "planetarium".

Bible, Proverbs 11.2: When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom. You're a well-read man, Dark, and that's duly noted; you're also very puffed-up.

Re: 12 Steps. That's a great post, Krsna. I was hitting the booze pretty heavy in the late 90's and ended up in AA...had a lot of the same insights that you've enumerated. Completely sober 9+ years now.

Thank you for your reply. I've been discussing predestination with some Christians on another board, and Madhavacarya's philosophy came to mind...it's a definite anomaly, but interesting to think about how he came to those conclusions. Were you referring to BG 16.20.20 as the "Eternal Hell" verse?

I agree, he is very knowledgeable. Dark, I realize this is diverting from the topic a bit, but a nonetheless a good chance to ask you: What comments might you have regarding Srila Madhvacarya's theories concerning the Tripartite division of souls? This subject was tossed around some here a year or so ago; I'd like to hear your opinion. Hare Krsna

Though I don't drink, I keep some wine around and if someone wants a glass, they can have it. Same goes for coffee, I also partake moderately. If someone wants a cigarette, they can go out on the back porch and smoke it...but that's common social etiquette these days. I have a wide range of friends and can't be a total stickler. Meat's where I draw the line, though. Don't keep it in the house, will not eat in heavy meat-serving restaurants, and I won't pick up a burger or similar for a co-worker on a trip out to the store.

The Pillars of the Earth, and the sequel, World Without End. Author: Ken Follett Great tales set in Crusades-era Europe; plenty of intertwining of spiritual and religious themes/characters into the overall plots.