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sanatan

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Everything posted by sanatan

  1. I hope you don't view me as a basher of Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy, because that is not my intention. It just seems to me that varnasrama-dharma is more on the irrelevant-in-practice end than just about any major point of the philosophy, but still gets huge amounts of airtime. Given the history of ISKCON leadership, this isn't surprising.
  2. Varnasrama-dharma is a conceptual repackaging of the pre-renaissance European social order or the present-day Islamic social order that exists in many countries, nothing more. I personally doubt that it has ever existed in the idealized-perfect form that is a mainstay of ISKCON philosophy...in actual effect, it is the basis for the rigid and degenerate caste system that seems to be intransigently rooted in Hindu society. Try substituting pope or bishop for brahmana and baron, lord, or knight for kshatriya in the last sentence of your paragraph. So historically, military leaders have had that "practical sense of justice" and "common sense" that was/is lacking in the clergy? Hmmmm...
  3. Yes, it's very obvious that the concepts of varnasrama-dharma correspond to the "natural order" of human affairs. But, everytime I read or hear someone state that it needs to be implemented on a large scale, I get strong mental visions of robed mullahs issuing absolute "scriptural" dictates and women being stoned to death for stepping outside their houses. Varnasrama-dharma is simply a blueprint for government by theocracy, backed up by military power. Fine for small religious communities composed of voluntary members, absurd to consider for anything larger, unless you like the idea of living in a repro-1000 AD Middle Eastern nation.
  4. Suchandra, I'm aware that changes have been made to Srila Prabhupada's original texts, and feel very fortunate to have collected the originals I own. As far as I can see from having both, the repros of the three original India-printed Bhagavatam volumes are 100% accurate facsimiles. They are also high quality books, and an excellent value for $40 to $50 USD. Every devotee should own a set!
  5. What, exactly, are you trying to say? Are you referring to the hardbound 1972 Macmillan edition? I have a first edition with dj, and it is in very nice condition. But, my set of mid-70's to early 80's BBT Bhagavatams is still near-new, with none of the deterioration you describe.
  6. Several years ago I purchased a set of the 3 original SP Bhagavatam volumes, which I had professionally restored. However, the dustjackets were missing, which isn't surprising. The devotee I purchased my set from also had another set of originals...near-perfect with excellent original dustjackets...which he didn't want to part with at any price. To obtain dustjackets, I purchased a set of repro Bhagavatams from Krishna.com's online store for $40...they look totally authentic and fit perfectly on the originals, and the repro books are good shelf copies, very nice within themselves.
  7. I hear you again, cbrahma. In order to maintain my sanity and balance, I've had to distance myself from all this as well. Of course, there are many who would tell me that I've become an insane materialist, but I really don't care what they think.
  8. Theist, I really appreciate the way you can analyze psychologically and spiritually, and come up seeing the bright side; also the way ghari shares his realizations in a short, simple, and poetic way....you're both inspiring souls.
  9. cbrahma, I hear you. My mention of "adverse decisions" certainly wasn't meant in a condescending way towards anyone; I came close to making the same one myself 35+ years ago, and back then it was a decision one could make with reasonable expectations. I've always referred to myself as an "interested karmi". Yes, longtime association has turned me around from a former-Christian agnostic stance to one of firm positive convictions regarding God and the spiritual, so I guess "hopefully-pious karmi" could apply to me as well.
  10. I've never been able to give up sex, even though at my age the physical urge is maybe 10% of what it was when I was 30, and the current ability to perform successfully is severely compromised. But you better believe I still check out anything female that crosses my path. That failing has ruined any hopes I ever had to move ahead spiritually, and I've given up any attempts at active sadhana. I still do some practical service, helping to design and build things for the temple, and give some money, but that's it. The positive effect of attempting to follow the regs is that many years of vegetarianism and avoidance of heavy intoxication have made these good habits ingrained, and I never have had a gambler's mentality...the times I did indulge in it I suffered long and heavily for my foolishness, both financially and emotionally, and have never allowed myself to get burned that way again. So, I guess I'm drifting off into a semi-aware old age...tv movies, reading, messing around with cars, staying in touch with friends, devotee and nondevotee, helping out a little at the temple, taking good care of my wife. That's about all. ghari, your posts are always great to read...you've found the pearl beyond price.
  11. I think you posted awhile back that you got booted by your temple prez for reading a book by Sridhar Maharaja...was that the end of your eight-year hitch in the movement?
  12. That's what I've heard. In what time period did most of this this happen? I've known quite a few SP disciples, and yes, a good number of them are middle-aged and barely getting by, but this often appears to be the result of adverse personal decisions, rather than alienation from ISKCON. I spent a lot of time around the temple in my home city from the mid '80s thru the early 90's, but as essentially an outsider/fringie, never was privy to the inner grapevine. It always seemed to me that the SP disciples and disciples of later gurus co-existed well here. Your observation is well taken...no major regrets at this point.
  13. Srila Prabhupada is a somewhat of a mythical figure for me simply because I never met or saw him, even though I am old enough to have been an early disciple and had the opportunities wide open to me. Reading Guruvani's post # 11 prompt some reflection. Would I have had the same feelings in his situation? Part of me says yes, since I'm sure I would have idolized SP and earnestly desired some personal contact had I met him, part of me says maybe not since the very minute amount of humility I possess may have kept me in the attitude of "just lucky to be in the same room". Who knows? Anyway, I did have some close association with a great disciple of SP's, HH Visnujana Maharaja, and I think he passed on something from SP to everyone he met, including me. A this point, mixed regrets: Don't regret not fully joining the movement and getting initiated, by SP or a "successor guru"...good chance I would have blooped early-on or later-on anyway. Don't regret the decision to finish my material education, get married, and have a regular career, in lieu of joining the movement. Do deeply regret not hitting the road with VJ Maharaja, as I had the full opp to, and at least spending a few months with him in his traveling and preaching. 58 years old, where to go next? To be continued...sanatan.
  14. Good advice, GV...I've stayed away for a week, had a nice Thanksgiving, and am now a kinder, gentler person. Please accept my apologies for the karmi, etc, comment. It's the nitpicking that gets me frustrated. I tend to be somewhat gregarious, and conversationally will ask both devotee and non-devotee about their life in general or will comment appreciatively upon a devotee's pre-devotional accomplishments, if it seems comfortable and appropriate to do so...if someone comes back with a highhanded reply about "not commenting on a devotee's previous life" I tend to get miffed. I'm doing some projecting here as well...I expect others to respond as I would toward similar comments directed to me. In a sense, a devotee's previous life does matter. I don't think anyone who was a drug dealer has any business in the position of guru. That's for the next life...they're still doing penance in this one.
  15. It's a psychological phenomenon known as projection...well documented. Just because I told Guruvani he was doing this doesn't indicate I'm free of guilt in the same area, either. What he said happened to rub me the wrong way. There's no such thing as silly logic. "Your silly attempt at logic" would have been a better way to phrase it.
  16. Give us a break, Guruvani. Big deal, so his disciples cite his pre-ISKCON accomplisments. Didn't Krishna tell Arjuna "I am the ability in man"? I take that to mean all abilities. I've had the privelige of meeting Danavir Maharaja on several occasions. Notably, an older SP disciple/mutual friend introduced us at a feast, and I sat with him and we had very a nice conversation. He's a truly exceptional person. Your use of the terms karmi and non-devotee sense enjoyer in illusion, especially in reference to the previous life of an elevated Vaisnava, don't speak well for your state of consciousness. What we are ourselves, we see in others.
  17. Oft-repeated, but always worthy of re-repeating: 20. And, when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the Kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21. Neither shall they say "Lo here! or Lo there! For, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you Jesus Christ, Bible, KJV. St. Luke, Chapter 17, Verses 20 & 21
  18. And I've never read TLC. Looked on my bookshelf, and there's a copy. Thanks for reminder, mahak.
  19. A couple of quick thoughts on your question. Here in the USA: A. Vegetarianism, cruelty-free lifestyles, etc. have taken firm root and are now considered to be both healthy and morally right by very many people. Independently of any particular religious teaching, these are becoming cultural norms in certain geographic areas, influential in all. B. There is a huge amount of interest and participation in religious practices that lean toward inner discovery and self-realization. The number of teachers and institutional propagators of such practices is large and variegated, and there are also near-innumerable books on these subjects available in English. Belief in "eastern" spiritual notions such as reincarnation and karma is widespread here now. Terms that refer to these, karma in particular, are part of everyday speech. I'd say that these are changes much for the better, and that from a forty-year perspective, Srila Prabhupada and the Hare Krsna movement were and remain among the most significant pioneers in introducing A and B above to America. USA, ca. 1967: Vegetarianism was universally considered wierd, basically unhealthy, and commonly associated with hippies and "health faddists" of the whackiest type. Complete misunderstanding of and misinformation regarding religious traditions other than the Judeo-Christian one was the norm; I have numerous memories in this regard. Today, despite 40+ years of change, meat-eating is still predominant here, as is the Judeo-Christian religious tradition, and there is plenty of visible reactionary sentiment against widespread non-Judeo-Christian spiritualism and deviance from long-established dietary norms. In regard to this, thank God for the US Constitution.
  20. Interesting...in a certain sense, samskara equals samsara. I never stop learning on this board, that's for sure.
  21. Instead of Book of the Dead get him a nice copy of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, 1972 edition. As Hari Bhakta dasa suggested, he needs to read chapter two. If that's all he reads, it will be of immense benefit. I chanted japa for hours sitting next to my father in law the night he died of alzheimer's. I strongly felt Krishna's presence as I chanted...he had lost his mental faculties years before, and was unconscious the last couple of days, but his subtle faculties heard.
  22. Yes, in a Krsna conscious context, I've aways regarded the Magi or "Wise Men from the East" as advanced spiritualists or self-realized souls. Something else they didn't go too deeply into in Sunday school! One of them is traditionally referred to as a "Hindoo". HS, do you have more background on their origins? I've also read that the "Star in the East" was actually an astrological calculation that predicted and pinpointed the significance, time, and location of Jesus' birth. Perhaps Jesus sought them out, as you suggest, or one or all of them returned to his homeland and brought him to India or other far eastern location. Per the Bible, Jesus did preach against "vain repetiton" and showy public prayer, but in Krsna conscious context I take this to mean that he was admonishing his followers about avoiding the behavior of fanatical and unwashed local sects, not condemning the chanting of bonafide mantras and prayers. The "vain repetition" passage makes great ammo for fundies when discussing the chanting of Hare Krsna mantra, or the Catholic rosary, for that matter. To them, Catholics and Vaisnavas are in much the same category. I've never read the Aquarian Gospel, but remember it well from 60's-70's hippie store book racks.
  23. Samsara, I've always taken to mean the wheel of birth and death or perpetual material existence; the "blazing fire" that the spiritual master extinguishes. Samskara has always meant "ceremony" to me; at the ISKCON temple here traditional ceremonies marking or celebrating various life passages are often held by the congregational Hindu members, and these are referred to as "so-and-so samskara". Samskara as an ongoing process of spiritual training or ongoing and deepening spiritual initiation or "inner life" is a new one for me; Alex, thanks to you for expounding on this.
  24. Based on the facts that the Bible provides no record of Jesus' life between ages 12 and 30, that he demonstrated a high degree of spiritual precocity at 12, and that the western-mid eastern world was an orderly place under the rule of the Roman empire, with safe and frequently-traveled trade routes certainly extending to India and beyond, the scenario of Jesus spending a good part of his youth and young adulthood in India is a reasonable supposition. The supposition that he could have been married and had children is reasonable as well...absolute celibacy is not a requirement for spiritual greatness, as is demonstrated in our Gaudiya tradition. For some reason, though, the fundies really freak when this is suggested to them. The Sunday-school tale that all of us of Christian background grew up with, and that the fundies promote: Jesus was single, lived with mom and dad, and was a local carpenter...is also a reasonable supposition.
  25. <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> It's very obvious that for some, the lights were always on, and the ceremony was a formality. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It's also obvious that for others, the lights never come on, ceremonies or not.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Theist: "real devotee" was not the best choice of words, but you picked up on the intent anyway..."real devotee" in the context of my post was along the lines of "full member" rather than that of uttama-bhakta. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> My objective experience never has been a lack of acceptance by devotees, though I did get told many times that one should come to the point of being formally initiated. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> More the intensely self-kicking nature at work, I think.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> Yeh, we can’t sit back and think we’ve gotten absolutely nowhere, and use that as an excuse for spiritual inactivity.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Very nice song, mahak, especially the last verse. <o:p></o:p> <o:p>Again, Prabhus, thank you for the kind words.</o:p>
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