Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

[theist 1]

 

Srila Saraswati Thakur says souls have been in illusion perpetually. If he says the fallen souls are in illusion from a time that has no beginning then this means there was no previous time when the souls were "wise" or "devoted to Krishna". The meaning of his words is very, very clear.

 

 

 

 

When souls are in Brahman they are liberated. So it is not true that souls originate in matter (the Radha kunda babajis promote that idea by the way). But rather what happens is that souls are liberated in brahman for a while, or they are lost in samsara for a while. Up, down, up, down.

 

 

I don't find those words that clear. Perpetually in illusion is not how sayuja mukti is normally described although I can see from the Vaisnava perspective not being in a relationship with Krsna is seen as illusion and that would include so-called liberate persons in Brahman but I am not clear if that is what Bhaktisiddhanta was meaning.

 

Oh it's the Babajis who say that. I wondered because I have run across it before.

[theist 1]

 

The brahmajyoti is beyond material time. Time measures motion. There is motion everywhere in Krsna's energy and creations. Motion means dynamic, there is no real statis in the brahmajyoti and that why the jivas do not remain there. The measured period of when the jivas were manifested in the brahmajyoti, through their existence there, until they became acitivated jivas manifesting desire is not like the measured periods of time in this world. It is acintya, inconcievable and therefore beyond the ability of our "puppy brains" to understand or "measure". Therefore the rshis or seers have told us that our conditioned existence is anadi, beginningless or from time immemorial.

 

Time measures motion in this world but I don't think it wise to try and project that onto the movement in the Spiritual Sky. Afterall measuring movement is a lot different then saying movement depends on time measuring it before it can take place.

 

Afterall Krsna moves of His own sweet will it is not that time makes Him move. Nor do I believe time forces the other residents to move in play with Him. That is purely an expression of their love.

 

You say it is inconceivable and that is my point also. Word wrangling from our side won't bring enlightenment on this issue.

[Guest guest]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.2.32

 

ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas

tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ

āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraḿ padaḿ tataḥ

patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-ańghrayaḥ

 

O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position of Brahman liberation may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet.

 

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Souls in the state of sayujya mukti have, according to this verse of Bhagavatam, "aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ", or impure intelligence (buddhi).

 

They are in a type of illusion

[theist 1]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.2.32

 

ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas

tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ

āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraḿ padaḿ tataḥ

patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-ańghrayaḥ

 

O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position of Brahman liberation may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet.

 

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Souls in the state of sayujya mukti have, according to this verse of Bhagavatam, "aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ", or impure intelligence (buddhi).

 

They are in a type of illusion

 

Yes I said that was the vaisnava understanding but was that what Bhaktisiddhanta was saying in that sentence? I don't know. Maybe.

I also wonder if that is not a translation. Anyway things are not always clear on the surface. Everything I see read hear is filtered through my confused mind so I've taken to not worrying about what my mind believes other than the simplest basic facts of Krsna consciousness. If I must be ignorant then it is best to not be self deluded into thinking I KNOW.

 

I can also see strong arguements for the brahman origin side. There is something about being placed by Krsna into a certain way of loving Him that I find kind of artifical. The Brahman as origin allows us to truly unfold our personal love for Krsna...much like a flower unfolding it's petals. It just seems so perfect that the jiva chooses to awaken to his own personhood and go on choose the life he will lead.

 

It is indeed a mystery.

[Guest guest]

 

Once when I was with Siddhaswarupananda someone asked him, "When people fall down from Vaikuntha do they stop serving Krishna immediately, or do they gradually do less and less service and become more engrossed in Maya".

 

Siddha replied, "They fall down gradually. Most of the people in ISKCON are on their way down".

 

As a young boy is ISKCON I saw how Srila Prabhupada was pleased by the kirtans of Siddhaswarupanana, I can understand his point that some coming down from the heavenly planets (after first leaving Vaikuntha in a secondary dream state consciousness) in the material universe (mahat-tattva) may come to ISKCON to try and stop their fall down from entering the lower species.

 

There are also those jiva-bhutah's who are coming up from the lower species of biological life forms who also may get a human body suitable for awaking their 'old' Krishna Consciousness.

 

However making the comment that most ISKCON devotees will fall further seems born of bitterness rather than Knowledge.

[Guest guest]

 

This is plainly wrong.

 

The past and future do exist in Goloka. I was just reading Brhadbhagavatamrtam to my son before he went to sleep, reading how the Gopis are waiting and praying for that beautiful future moment when they would see Krishna on the path coming back from the forest.

 

This eternal present you speak of - if Mother Yashoda cannot see Krishna right now, does she want to remain in this present state? She longs for the future moment when she will be re-united with Gopala.

 

Wake up.

 

Your philosophy about falling from Goloka is based on misconceptions.

 

If we were in Vaikuntha and doing service but now we are in misery in the material world, why did Krishna let us (his gopas and gopis) fall into this state of illusion, since he himself has proclaimed "My devotee will never perish".

 

The article by pundarikarksa pointed out, in much more eloquent words than what I can write, that there are several serious philsophical issues that arise if we think that Krishna can allow his eternal servants to fall into illusion.

 

And by the way, which translation of this verse of the Gita (15.6) do you prefer:

 

 

a)

That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.

b)

That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it <b>a second time </b>never returns to this material world.

 

 

Version B is what you are promoting, aren't you?

 

That is Lila, it is not mundane time. You have misunderstood, mundane time means impermanence, birth, disease, old age and death controlled by the movement of past, present and future. In other words when it is said the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode is perpetually in the present it means that the so called 'past, present and future' is not imperishable, there is no birth, disease, old age or death. This is like trying to understand the third dimension from being in the second dimension - do you understand my point?.

 

Material eyes cannot understand these things.

 

To understand an imperishable universe where everything is living as individual bodily forms serving Krishna is difficult. We cannot even view the sub-space ghostly realities in the material universe. Individually we may be aware of its existence but one can never prove it with the most advanced electron microscope or the Hubble telescope is space, our gross material science and technology can never prove the existence of sub-space or the ethereal containers that exist there because such subtle matter can never be viewed through biological and gross material means, even though the biological vessels is a further containment of the subtle or ethereal body. Only by pious activities can the heavenly planets in the mahat-tattva be attained and not by secular means of science, technology and architecture.

 

And where as most religions believe the heavenly planets in the mahat-tattva is the Kingdom of God, here we are trying to understand beyond all that. Lets face, such understanding is only possible when we awaken our old and original Krishna Consciousness.

 

It is only when they (the marginal devotee’s as their authentic devotional body) foolishly transmit a 'secondary conscious phenomenon’ (jiva-bhutah) to the mahat-tattva (material universe), that such knowledge of their original service to Krishna in the transcendental body they really are, is temporarily lost (never severed due to their spiritual body being the source of their transmitted jiva bhutah consciousness) and the disease of Impersonalism (Mayavadism) and confinement to ethereal and biological vessels or bodies, overwhelms and traps their transferred secondary consciousness to the confines of the material temporary universe or mahat-tattva.

 

The unfortunate unknowledgeable view of believing our origins are from Impersonal origins even affects many great Vaishnava devotee’s like Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja Swami, B.G. Narasingha and many others in the Gaudiya Math. Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls. Their understanding of the jiva or souls origins is simply incorrect. The fact is, we are all eternal person as a perpetual transcendental body and always have been that bodily form. We can either accept that Krishna conscious bodily origins, or we can deny that body and consciously transfer our desires, aspirations, dreams and thoughts to he mahat-tattva (impermanent material universe of self centered importance).

 

Ultimately Krishna’s ‘marginal-potency-bodily personalities’ are the Brahmajyoti!!

 

It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, may sometimes go on to ‘consciously’ (never as the body they are eternally, that is their true selfless devotional unique self) leave Krishna’s imperishable abode and enter the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a secondary non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti. Only in this way, via the mahat-tattva cloud, can the Impersonal Brahmajyoti temporarily exist.

 

All the ‘individual bodily subsidiary sparks (vigraha’s) of the effulgence originating from Krishna’ are actually collectively the Brahmajyoti Brahman effulgence or Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha’s bodily personalities serving Krishna.

[Guest guest]

 

I have just one question that I want you people to answer.

 

Can you find even one verse, anywhere in the scriptures, that says the Jiva Tattva (marginal potency) originates from the internal potency (antaranga shakti)

 

I'm not interested in hearing anything more from you people, until you give me an answer to this.

[Guest guest]

 

The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

[Guest guest]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.2.32

 

ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas

tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ

āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraḿ padaḿ tataḥ

patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-ańghrayaḥ

 

O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position of Brahman liberation may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet.

 

----------------

 

Souls in the state of sayujya mukti have, according to this verse of Bhagavatam, "aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ", or impure intelligence (buddhi).

 

They are in a type of illusion

[Guest guest]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.10

 

sei vibhinnāḿśa jīva — dui ta' prakāra

eka — 'nitya-mukta', eka — 'nitya-saḿsāra'

 

"The living entities [jīvas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

 

Note the words in Bengali: nitya-saḿsāra

 

Eternally in samsara....

 

'nitya-mukta' — nitya kṛṣṇa-caraṇe unmukha

'kṛṣṇa-pāriṣada' nāma, bhuñje sevā-sukha

 

Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They are to be considered eternal associates of Kṛṣṇa, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Kṛṣṇa.

 

'nitya-bandha' — kṛṣṇa haite nitya-bahirmukha

'nitya-saḿsāra', bhuñje narakādi duḥkha

 

Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions.

 

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Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.108-109

 

jīvera 'svarūpa' haya — kṛṣṇera 'nitya-dāsa'

kṛṣṇera 'taṭasthā-śakti' 'bhedābheda-prakāśa'

sūryāḿśa-kiraṇa, yaiche agni-jvālā-caya

svābhāvika kṛṣṇera tina-prakāra 'śakti' haya

 

It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa because he is the marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kṛṣṇa has three varieties of energy.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Explaining Impersonalism that includes believing we originate from from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti

 

The mahat-tattva is real yet is called an illusion or dream because of its temporary nature; where as reality (the Vaikuntha’s) is permanent, imperishable, and always actively alive in the service of Krishna and never fades.

 

The dark cloud that takes up a quarter of the Brahmajyoti on the other hand is real but impermanent, perishable and always fades in and out of existence like a mirage in the desert. The dark cloud or mahat-tattva (the material manifestation) nonetheless, is still part of the Brahmajyoti, yet is already darkened due to the individual dreaming non-Krishna conscious thoughts that are transmitted there. It is only there, within the mahat-tattva, such dreaming self-centered desires exist.

 

This diseased condition infects those who choose to forget Krishna and the real bodily form they serve Krishna as. Only within the mahat-tattva or material manifestation under the jurisdiction of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu, can their introverted selfish dreaming consciousness exist. This condition of ignorance is similar (but not the same) to ones dreams and fantasies experienced as real while ones biological bodily is asleep or daydreaming. The dark cloud (mahat-tattva) is where ones introverted dreaming forgetful consciousness becomes active however, the knowledge to tell the difference between dreams and reality is lost. We forced Krishna to allow us to come to this material universe, He warned us, but we came anyway. He left that choice up to us.

 

The ethereal and biological vessels that the jiva-bhutah consciousness possesses/creates (under the collaboration of Maha Vishnu - such vessels always remain under his jurisdiction), as well as the material energy and elements (fossilized remains) that are left over as a consequence of possessing impermanent biological bodies (inferior energy or separated [from life] energies), such lifeless matter is also under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu and molded into planets, moons and suns by the demigods however, there is always a lifeless component of dust particles, rocks, gases, and even dead planets, where neither ethereal or biological life exist, within the mahat-tattva.

 

Maha-Vishnu has arranged everything for the rebellious jiva-bhutah transmitted consciouses (souls) who come into His domain. He is therefore responsible for the blueprint or guidelines such jiva-bhutah’s will follow, yet is and is directly responsible for the lifeless matter aspect of the mahat-tattva or material universe because it is all part of His creation he rents out to the visiting jiva-bhutah consciousness that enters from the outside (Vaikuntha’s).

 

The jiva-bhutah’s reverie consciousness in this way only appears to be responsible for the lifeless energy aspect of the material creation because when they possess a biological body given by Maha-Vishnu, the fossil remains of that body that the jiva-bhutah consciousness has departed from it, become the lifeless matter or inferior energy that goes on as dust, gases, rocks, sand, etc that accumulate and make up the sun, moon, planets and galaxies as already explained however these lifeless abodes those trapped in ethereal and biological containers always find shelter. In this way, life (jiva-bhutah transmitted consciousness) is found everywhere within the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

When the nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha personalities, project consciously from their original perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form and activate their secondary jiva-bhutah consciousness due no longer wanting to serve Krishna, they are immediately transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud where Maha-Vishnu creates all the facilitates, all the variations of desired bodily vessels within the dreams He is having. In this way Krishna, in His Balarama expansion also accompanies their dreaming secondary lower consciousness by creating the mahat-tattva and simultaneously entering the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the Spiritual Sky with them as the Paramatma expansion of Maha-Vishnu.

This expansion of Balarama dreaming is called Maha-Vishnu.

 

Balarama always remains in Goloka-Vrndavana with His brother, the original Supreme two-armed Krishna or Shamasundara Form. Lord Balarama always remains in Goloka-Vrndavana even while simultaneously expanding Himself as Maha-Vishnu. The atma-vigraha devotee’s are incapable of imitating Balarama or Krishna in this way. The two-armed forms Krishna and Balarama are always within Radha and Krishna’s original spiritual planet with Their loving devotees.

This transcendental Planet resembles the whorl of a huge lotus flower and is called Goloka-Vrndavana. This eternally blissful personal place is the highest abode of Lord Krishna, the original Personality of Godhead.

 

In this way, Krishna’s original planet, Goloka-Vrndavana, throws off a spiritual ray of effulgence called the Brahmajyoti that is all the individual atma-jiva-nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha devotee’s bodily personalities, often referred to as spiritual sparks within/as the Brahmajyoti.

There are also unlimited Spiritual planets surrounding Goloka-Vrndavana where the so-called spiritual sparks (atma-jiva-vigraha devotees) eternally reside serving Vishnu or Krishna.

 

On these Vishnuloka planets they serve Krishna’s eternal four-armed Vishnu incarnation or expansion. These Brahmajyoti planets extend out to the far reaches of the Spiritual sky that also eventually includes the abode of Maha-Vishnu who residence is in one quarter of the Personal Brahmajyoti however, within Maha-Vishnu’s material cosmic dream manifestation, the whole Spiritual universe changes (except for Maha-Vishnu and His internal expansions) because, in that corner of creation within the Brahmajyoti, the Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha personalities, who eternally serve Krishna, cannot exist there unless the atma-vigraha devotee’s forget Krishna. That forgetfulness manifests a phenomenon from within their own bodies, that radiates a secondary self (nitya-baddha-jiva-bhutah condition) existing as dreams (real but temporary).

 

Only in that independent self-centered dream (always desiring to be served instead of serving Krishna), does the jiva-bhutah dreaming consciousness hook-up with the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. In this way the jiva-bhutah dream state and the dreams of Maha-Vishnu become one. The Impersonalists and Mayavadi’s cannot understand the chain of events that leads the individual jiva-bhutah consciousness and the dreams of Maha-Vishnu to appear as one and the same. This is due to the Mayavadi’s not seeing the full picture of universal creation.

 

They cannot see, believe nor comprehend the Personal perpetual Spiritual Sky outside the realm of the mahat-tattva. They have no devotion to understand that the vast universe they imagine themselves to exist in is only one quarter of the entire creation. In this way, they exist in a self-deluded impersonal universe they think is all one – I am you, you are me, and we are all together.

 

The paradox here is the jiva-bhutah’s dreams are the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Individuality is never lost although the jiva-bhutah consciousness cannot only imagine itself as all one but can imagine itself as everyone. The material universe (mahat-tattva) can be an extremely dangerous place where one can stay for almost an eternity, if they stubbornly choose not to serve Krishna and therefore reawaken their ‘old’ Krishna Consciousness – even a seeming eternity is just the blink of the eye (not even that) in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky,if one chooses to go back home, back to Godhead and wake up as the bodily personality they really are serving Krishna.

[Guest guest]

Due to the perpetual nature of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha’s, ones original body is always there even if one has ‘consciously’ extend themselves to the mahat-tattva. For the purpose of allowing the choices of His marginal potency-jivatma-vigraha devotee’s, Krishna has created the mahat-tattva cloud via His Maha-Vishnu expansion. In this way, be it in the Vaikuntha’s or the mahat-tattva, Krishna is the only provider.

 

The biological bodily garments (8,400,000 of them) cover the ethereal vessel, which contains or embodies the transmitted jiva-bhutah or jiva-sakti-secondary relocated consciousness. As already explained but needs to be emphasized, this transferred jiva-bhutah secondary consciousness originates from ones authentic perpetual bodily-self (nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha) that eternally exists in a loving servitor relationship with Krishna in either Vaikuntha or the more intimate Goloka-Vrndavana Kingdom of Radha, Krishna and Lord Chaitanya and their expansions and associates.

 

The extension of consciousness, transmitted from ones eternal Krishna Conscious body, or ones authentic, original and genuine bodily appearance, that is often referred to as the so-called marginal sparks or atoms in the effulgence, is only transferred (as a secondary self-centered consciousness) from ones perpetual bodily self to the containments of ethereal and biological vessels in the mahat-tattva (the dreams of Maha-Vishnu) when one wants to enjoy existence separately from Krishna. This choice is given to all marginal living entities in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (vigraha’s) because without it there can never be genuine love or service?

 

Always chant Hare Krishna for the purpose of always remembering Krishna and to further gradually reawaken ones ‘old dormant original’ Krishna Consciousness, then these seemingly inconceivable topics can easily be understood regardless if one is a fallen rascal who previously selfishly and insensitively exploited the material world around them due to the diseased conditioned of their biological vessel, caused by the individual embodied soul’s (life force or jiva-bhutah’s entrapment within ethereal and biological containments) accumulation and crushing build-up of an overwhelming avalanche of Karmic reactions!

 

Srila Prabhupada and Lord Chaitanya (the most merciful combination of Radha and Krishna) have come to save such delinquent souls from their accretion and devastating massive karmic backlog that is like an overpowering flood forcing one in the opposite direction to where they are trying to swim! Such souls have forgotten they have all been transferred as the jiva-bhutah consciousnesses that have emigrated to the mahat-tattva as a secondary consciousness that was originally transmitted from their authentic innovative perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form outside of the confines of ethereal and biological vessels. Such impermanent vessels are the part and parcels of the mahat-tattva. In this way one’s eternal consciousness does not belong to the mahat-tattva or the ethereal and biological vessels one is presently housed in.

[Guest guest]

Show me a verse, any verse in scripture, which says this process you describe is true. Where does it say a jiva is produced from the suddha-sattva chit potency by a process, as you say, where "one has ‘consciously’ extend(ed) themselves to the mahat-tattva"

 

You philosophy is pure speculation not backed up by authentic shastras.

[Guest guest]

 

Show me a verse, any verse in scripture, which says this process you describe is true. Where does it say a jiva is produced from the suddha-sattva chit potency by a process, as you say, where "one has ‘consciously’ extend(ed) themselves to the mahat-tattva"

 

You philosophy is pure speculation not backed up by authentic shastras.

 

The author of this work is Pradyumna Swami and he has said his only authority on Krishna Consciousness is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, You may not agree with his understandings of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings. He is simply doing what Srila Prabhupada said and that is 'write down your realization based on his teachings'. It is not based on speculation it is based on the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

We can only repeat that our origins are from Goloka-Vrndavana as Srila Prabhupada has told us and if we are fortunate enough to again re-waken there, we will certainly understand the spiritual world much better then as we awaken back up as our original Krishna Conscious body.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness means when he says:

 

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastra-sakti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

 

Devotee -: In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?

 

Prabhupada: ‘Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there." But he insists, "Oh, I must go. I must go.All right, you go at your risk. That's all. And you suffer. What can be done?" Because you are son of God--God has got independence, full independence, almighty--therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that "I must go and enjoy independently," so God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy. Beginning from Lord Brahma down to the worms in the stool, gradually, according to your work, according to your desire, you manufacture your different types of body and enjoy and suffer. That's all. That is explained. Prakrti-stho hi bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan. And as soon as you became entangled in different types of punishment, not enjoyment but punishment.

 

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

 

Srila Prabhupada further explains: -

 

“Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

 

"A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called Maya, is always available.

 

Srila Prabhupada: - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krishna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krishna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

 

As clearly explained, the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm of the spiritual universe is completely different from the material worlds in the mahat-tattva; we have no experiences here to compare to the Goloka-Vrndavana. So it is difficult for us to conceive or even imagine what it is like. We know the time factor does not act there, there is no past and future, everything is eternally present... So how can we understand that? We have no experience of such a thing, we cannot even imagine it. But we accept it as being perfect knowledge of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm because we have heard it from Srila Prabhupada. We may not completely realize what it means, but we have heard it from Prabhupada, so that is perfect knowledge.

 

Krishna’s subsidiary or marginal living entities make Him inclusive and all pervading like the sun and the sunrays, yet both Krishna and His marginal potency always remain individual persons as those original authentic perpetual person in/as transcendental bodies that is always who they really are for eternity.

 

In other words such spiritual bodies in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Empire are not vessels or container or a body one is housed in, no, it is not like that in the perpetual spiritual Sky because those bodies are who one really is for infinity.

 

The energy of Lord Krishna is divided into three: para, kshetrajna and avidya. The para energy is actually the energy of the Supreme Lord Himself; the kshetrajna energy is the individual living entities or the marginal potency of Krishna that are all originally eternal bodily persons like Krishna yet always in the constitutional position of eternal servants and the enjoyed, while Krishna is the enjoyer; and the avidya energy is the material world (mahat-tattva), under the influential control of Maya-Devi, the wife of the creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu.

 

Never was there a time when all the individual transcendental bodies (marginal potency, soul or atma-jiva-vigraha devotee’s) did not exist, nor in the future will such original bodies cease to be. This is confirmed as follows –

 

‘Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be’ - Bhagavad-Gita as it is chapter 12 text 2.

 

Krishna or God is a perpetual ‘Bodily-Person’ and so are all of the individual marginal potencies (souls) that emanate/surround Him.

 

We hear from the Vedic texts that the Supreme Brahman or Brahmajyoti exhibits Krishna’s (God’s) effulgence, and therefore everything becomes illuminated. We can understand from Brahma-samhita that this Brahmajyoti, or the Brahman effulgence, emanates from the Personal body of Lord Krishna.

 

Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls.

 

Even the terminology ‘originally manifested’ is incorrect because there is no beginning or end to Krishna or His marginal devotee’s. One thing is certain; all living entities that enter the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the far corner of the Spiritual Sky have all originated from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, not as their perpetual devotional Krishna Conscious body, but rather as a transformation of consciousness caused by non-Krishna conscious desires.

 

 

All marginal sparks, souls, jiva's, atoms in the effulgence, potencies, energies etc are all individual bodily personalities that originally manifested as an eternally Krishna (God) Conscious devotional body or sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. (Etenity, knowledge, bliss and form)

 

It is only when they (the marginal devotee’s as their authentic devotional body) foolishly transmit a 'secondary conscious phenomenon’ (jiva-bhutah) to the mahat-tattva (material universe), that such knowledge of their original service to Krishna in the transcendental body they really are, is temporarily lost (never severed due to their spiritual body being the source of their transmitted jiva bhutah consciousness) and the disease of Impersonalism (Mayavadism) and confinement to ethereal and biological vessels or bodies, overwhelms and traps their transferred secondary consciousness to the confines of the material temporary universe or mahat-tattva.

 

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ have the same bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha.

 

The marginal potency or sparks emanating from the whole categorically means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form. Sometimes this is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from. It’s only a metaphor, a allegory, a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and bodily form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna). In other words every living entity (marginal potency) has an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

 

As explained, it is important to understand that Krishna’s marginal potency bodily personalities are the Brahmajyoti!! It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, that a secondary non-Krishna conscious phenomenon may sometimes ‘consciously’ leave or be projected from their Krishna conscious authentic original bodily self within the imperishable abode of Krishna (Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). This is how the living entity (a secondary projected non-Krishna conscious self, enters or falls down to the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a inferior non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti existing in the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

Only in this way, via the mahat-tattva cloud (never as ones authentic body that can never leave Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm), can the Impersonal Brahmajyoti temporarily exist.

 

All the ‘individual bodily marginal sparks (souls, jiva’s, living entities or life force) of the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna, are actually collectively the Brahmajyoti Brahman effulgence or the Vaikuntha’s that is eternally glowing with individual personalities in perpetual devotional bodies.

 

The terminology of sparks, energies, atoms in the effulgence, and potency are only metaphors, a allegories - a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna).

 

In is way it is clear that every living entity (marginal potency) has/is an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha whether they are aware of who they really are or not.

 

 

The smaller mahat-tattva (material universes) phenomenon on the other hand is a dark perishable cloud, as shown above, that is also situated in the Spiritual Sky and surrounded by the superior Vaikuntha Planets that vastly out number the insignificant material universes within the mahat-tattva cloud. This dark impermanent cloud is a discoloration within the Spiritual Sky and is constructed for the mutinous desires, thoughts or dreams of those individuals who no longer wish to be with Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Krishna is the original Supreme Personality from whence all other individual perpetual bodily personalities (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or energy) are sustained from. Krishna also expands Himself from His Personal Goloka-Vrndavana abode and takes up residents on the infinite number of Vaikuntha planets; however Balarama, Krishna’s brother in Goloka-Vrndavana, appears as Sankarshana and is the origin of Maha-Vishnu who goes on and creates the mahat-tattva.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

Show one quote where Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada writes or says that the jiva souls originate in Goloka. Show one quote like this - not anything about coming from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha etc. Just Prabhupada saying that the conditioned souls come from Goloka Vrndavana.

[theist 1]

 

by Tirtha -The extension of consciousness, transmitted from ones eternal Krishna Conscious body, or ones authentic, original and genuine bodily appearance, that is often referred to as the so-called marginal sparks or atoms in the effulgence, is only transferred (as a secondary self-centered consciousness) from ones perpetual bodily self to the containments of ethereal and biological vessels in the mahat-tattva (the dreams of Maha-Vishnu) when one wants to enjoy existence separately from Krishna. This choice is given to all marginal living entities in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (vigraha’s) because without it there can never be genuine love or service?

 

 

If we originated from the Vaikuntha or Goloka how could it be any other way then as Tirtha has described? Afterall even though that form is our very selves it's particular form is in direct correspondence to one's loving service to Krsna. It has no meaning outside of that.

 

How perfect is Krsna's arrangment that the soul can choose to fall away from Him but yet find upon returning that he never left?

 

Am I understanding your argument correctly Tirtha?

[Beggar 0]

 

Show one quote where Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada writes or says that the jiva souls originate in Goloka. Show one quote like this - not anything about coming from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha etc. Just Prabhupada saying that the conditioned souls come from Goloka Vrndavana.

 

Shakti-fan, such a quote does not exist. Then why is it that such nonsense persons make such statements? The reason is that they don't view their Prabhupada's teachings in the perspective of his guru parampara. These parampara teachings include what was taught by the previous acaryas, his guru, his guru's guru and his favorable godbrothers, especially the one who he said he saw as siksha guru, Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Srila Sridhar Maharaja has told, "it is not possible to get everything from one guru". In "Sri Guru and His Grace", Srila Sridhar Maharaja says:

"We have left all social concerns and so many other shackles. For what? For the Absolute Truth. And wherever I shall find that, I must bow down my head. And if a great soul shows us, "This is the path to where you will find your thirst quenched. The line is in this zigzag way," we must accept that for our own interest. We are worshipers not of form, but of substance. If the current of spiritual substance comes another way, but I think that I must try to go this way to reach my goal, it is only jealousy, blind tenacity to stick to the physical thing. We must free ourselves from this material contamination and try to understand the value of spiritual truth. We should always be prepared for that. We must follow what is necessary, for our own interest.

I am not a servant of A, B, C, or D. I am a servant of Mahaprabhu. I may have to turn this way or that way, or whatever way will be favorable to reach my Lord. Wherever I feel the presence of my Lord in an intense form, I must be attracted to that side. We are out for that thing, and not for any fashion or formality; that will hamper our cause.

Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya, mam ekam saranam vraja. Wherever we shall find him, we must run in that direction. The direction may not be always straight. It may go in a zigzag way, but if Krsna comes from that side, I must run there. Again if he appears on this side, I must run to this side. My interest is with him. Not that we can challenge, "Why did Krsna appear here, and why is he appearing there? That may be a doubtful thing, so I must stay on this side. No. If I have genuine appreciation for the real thing, the proper thing, I must go to that side, the side of Krsna."

 

 

So the Prabhupada-onlyites and so-called Prabhupadanugas have the wrong conception and ultimately twist Prabhupada's teachings away from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's actual vani or teachings. This is evidenced by their divorcing Srila Prabhupada from his guru parampara. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja has said, such things are the result of "only jealousy" and "blind tenacity". The only reason that a so-called follower of Srila Prabhupada would come to such offensive conclusions such as that the enternal residents of Goloka Vrndavana, Vraja Dhama are falling into the abominable cycle of birth and death is that they are suffering from a "material contamination".

[Guest guest]

70-02-27.Jag Letter: Jagadisa

Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. USUALLY ANYONE WHO HAS DEVELOPED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA DOES NOT FALL DOWN IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, BUT BECAUSE THE INDEPENDENCE IS ALWAYS THERE, THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. BUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA IS NEVER LOST, SIMPLY IT IS FORGOTTEN BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA, SO IT MAY BE REGAINED OR REVIVED BY THE PROCESS OF HEARING THE HOLY NAME OF KRSNA AND THEN THE DEVOTEE ENGAGES HIMSELF IN THE SERVICE OF THE LORD WHICH IS HIS ORIGINAL OR CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION. THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE LIVING ENTITY WITH KRSNA IS ETERNAL AS BOTH KRSNA AND THE LIVING ENTITY ARE ETERNAL; THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.

 

1. USUALLY ANYONE WHO HAS DEVELOPED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA DOES NOT FALL DOWN IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE

 

NOTE: (their is broad latititude in this context to define how developed the relationship is, thus the word "usually" is used.

 

70-04-25. Letter: Jagadisa

Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? THE SOULS ARE ENDOWED WITH MINUTE INDEPENDENCE AS PART OF THEIR NATURE AND THIS MINUTE INDEPENDENCE MAY BE UTILIZED RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY AT ANY TIME, SO THERE IS ALWAYS THE CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN BY MISUSE OF ONE'S INDEPENDENCE. BUT THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY FIXED UP IN DEVOTIONAL SERVICE TO KRSNA ARE MAKING PROPER USE OF THEIR INDEPENDENCE AND SO THEY DO NOT FALL DOWN.

 

1. BUT THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY FIXED UP IN DEVOTIONAL SERVICE TO KRSNA ARE MAKING PROPER USE OF THEIR INDEPENDENCE AND SO THEY DO NOT FALL DOWN

 

Note (when the relationship has developed to the FIRMLY FIXED portion, they unequivocally do not fall)

 

Of course at that point, the person is conscious and acting from their spiritual body.

 

69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga

The spirit souls in the Brahmajyoti, although they have no desire for sense gratification, still they feel inconvenience like the ghost, and they fall down again in the Maya's atmosphere and develop a material body. In the Bhagavat therefore it is said that persons who are impersonalists and do not develop the dormant devotional attitude, their intelligence is not pure, because for want of a spiritual body, they come down again to the material world. In the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said by the lord that the only way of not coming back to the material world is to be promoted to the spiritual planets. for the impersonalists there is no such assurance of not falling down in the whole vedic literature. The conclusion is that without developing the spiritual body and without being situated on one of the spiritual planets, the so-called liberation is also illusion, or it is not complete. A SPIRIT SOUL WHO FALLS DOWN FROM THE BRAHMAJYOTI TO THE KINGDOM OF MAYA MAY HAVE A CHANCE OF ASSOCIATING WITH A PURE DEVOTEE, AND THEN HE MAY BE ELEVATED TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANETS OF VAIKUNTHA OR TO GOLOKA VRINDABAN. FROM THE BRAHMAJYOTI THERE IS NO DIRECT PROMOTION TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANETS, AND IT IS CLEARLY STATED IN THE BHAGAVATAM THAT SUCH SOULS FALL DOWN: PATANTY ADHA.

 

And a person who is firmly fixed up in their siddha swarupa will only come down to the Material plane, not fall down.

 

They may even come down to play the role of demon. But that is a spiritual body they are in, and Yoga Maya gives them the illusion of enmity towards Krsna and his devotees.

 

But they do not fall into material nescience. No how no way.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist 1]

 

A SPIRIT SOUL WHO FALLS DOWN FROM THE BRAHMAJYOTI TO THE KINGDOM OF MAYA MAY HAVE A CHANCE OF ASSOCIATING WITH A PURE DEVOTEE, AND THEN HE MAY BE ELEVATED TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANETS OF VAIKUNTHA OR TO GOLOKA VRINDABAN. FROM THE BRAHMAJYOTI THERE IS NO DIRECT PROMOTION TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANETS, AND IT IS CLEARLY STATED IN THE BHAGAVATAM THAT SUCH SOULS FALL DOWN: PATANTY ADHA.

 

 

Seems I have confused on this issue. I have tended to think that it was possible to go "up" as well as "down" upon rising out of the slumber of the brahman but according to this statement that may not be true.

 

What implications are there for the origin in Brahman side if this is true?

[Beggar 0]

 

Seems I have confused on this issue. I have tended to think that it was possible to go "up" as well as "down" upon rising out of the slumber of the brahman but according to this statement that may not be true.

 

What implications are there for the origin in Brahman side if this is true?

Upon the manifestation of individuality in the brahmajyoti most jivas desire to serve the Lord (Bhagavan). Those who are innately devotees of Mahaprabhu and Radha Krsna will be sent to those planets in the material world where Mahaprabhu and Krsna are appearing to be trained up in their rasa and services. So they go up but not without being trained therefore they don't go to Krsna's and Mahaprabhu's lilas in the spiritual world directly.

[Guest guest]

 

Upon the manifestation of individuality in the brahmajyoti most jivas desire to serve the Lord (Bhagavan). Those who are innately devotees of Mahaprabhu and Radha Krsna will be sent to those planets in the material world where Mahaprabhu and Krsna are appearing to be trained up in their rasa and services. So they go up but not without being trained therefore they don't go to Krsna's and Mahaprabhu's lilas in the spiritual world directly.

Does anyone know if Beggar is being accurate here? He could be speculating. Perhaps the soul would go on some kind of spiritual sojourn like the Gopa Kumar in Brhat Bhagavatamrta and then realise that he/she is attracted only to Vrndavan. After coming into contact with a high type of devotee perhaps one would then go to be trained up in the next life?

[Beggar 0]

 

Does anyone know if Beggar is being accurate here? He could be speculating. Perhaps the soul would go on some kind of spiritual sojourn like the Gopa Kumar in Brhat Bhagavatamrta and then realise that he/she is attracted only to Vrndavan. After coming into contact with a high type of devotee perhaps one would then go to be trained up in the next life?

Yes, my bad. What GuestOfMelodies says makes sense. So if you put what I wrote together with what you wrote O Guest of the Melodies then we have a more accurate representation.

[Guest guest]

Togther with a Bengalis speaking friend I have been reading the Brhadbhagavatamrtam in both Bangla and its various English translations.

 

In Srila Sanatana Goswami's tika (commentary) he says a whole lot of things that utterly crush the misconceptions promoted by Pradyumna Swami and his acolytes.

 

But what use will it be to present them here.

 

These people are Prabhupadanugas, not Gaudiyas.

 

They will never accept.... what Sanatana Goswami says.

[Guest guest]

 

Upon the manifestation of individuality in the brahmajyoti most jivas desire to serve the Lord (Bhagavan). Those who are innately devotees of Mahaprabhu and Radha Krsna will be sent to those planets in the material world where Mahaprabhu and Krsna are appearing to be trained up in their rasa and services. So they go up but not without being trained therefore they don't go to Krsna's and Mahaprabhu's lilas in the spiritual world directly.

 

 

Yes. This is what Sanatana Goswami says.

[Guest guest]

The most obvious and most fundamental error in this philsophy being presented is that it is argued our souls remain in the spiritual world while we are here. The spiritual form of the self is never separated from the self. I will post quotations later, when i have time.