Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

[krsna 3]

Origin of the Living Entity

BY: PURUJIT DASA

 

Jan 23, USA (SUN) — A Response to "We Are All Originally Krishna Conscious Entities".

 

Bhakta Eric Johanson stated (italics mine):

 

Quote # 1: "Srila Prabhupada taught repeatedly that the origin of the living entity was in the spiritual world and that, due to the misuse of his free will, he fell into this temporary world of illusion and repeated birth and death."

 

Response: Srila Prabhupada also taught repeatedly the opposite of that as will be evident from the exerpts provided below (italics mine):

 

• "Pure devotional service is so spiritually relishable that a devotee becomes automatically uninterested in material enjoyment. That is the sign of perfection in progressive devotional service. A pure devotee continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krsna and does not forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the opulence of the three worlds." (S.B.1.5.19, purport)
  
  "Beyond the urdhva-loka planets, that is to say above the Brahmaloka, are the material coverings of the universes, and above that is the spiritual sky, which is unlimited in expansion, containing unlimited self-illuminated Vaikuntha planets inhabited by God Himself along with His associates, who are all eternally liberated living entities."...
  ..."Therefore, the devotees never fall down, but the materialists, i.e., the fruitive workers and the speculative philosophers, do fall down, being forced by their respective modes of nature." (S.B. 1.6.31, purport)
  
  "The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere, even though they sometimes come onto the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. The sadhana-siddha devotees are chosen from the conditioned souls." (S.B.3.3.26, purport)
  
  "A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. When the material creation is manifested, it is not meant for them. The eternally liberated souls are called nitya-muktas, and they have nothing to do with the material creation." (S.B.3.5.29, purport)
  
  "From Vedic scriptures it is understood that sometimes even Brahma and Indra fall down, but a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls." (S.B. 3.15.48, purport)
  
  "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." (S.B. 3.16.26, purport )
  
  "Ordinarily, there is no possibility that the four sages could be so angry with the doorkeepers, nor could the Supreme Lord neglect His two doorkeepers, nor can one come back from Vaikuntha after once taking birth there." (S.B. 3.16.29, purport)
  
  "This ordinary living being is of two kinds - nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living being; are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world." (S.B. 5.11.12, purport)
  
  "All the residents of Vaikuntha-loka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikuntha-loka. Similarly, one who learns the faithful service of Lord Krsna through the Krsna consciousness movement will always remain in Vaikuntha-loka and have nothing to do with the material world." (S.B.6.1.34-36, purport)
  
  "In other words, these associates of the Lord, Jaya and Vijaya, descended to the material world to serve the Lord by fulfilling His desire to fight. Otherwise, as Maharaja Yudhisthira says, asraddheya ivabhati: the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuntha seems unbelievable." (S.B.7.1.35, purport)
  
  "It is not necessary for the Vaikuntha associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead to come to take the roles of His enemies in all the millenniums in which He appears. The "falldown" of Jaya and Vijaya occurred in a particular millennium; Jaya and Vijaya do not come down in every millennium to act as demons. To think that some associates of the Lord fall down from Vaikuntha in every millennium to become demons is totally incorrect."(Cc. Adi-lila 5.36, purport)
  
  "The living entities are divided into two categories - the eternally liberated and the eternally conditioned. Those who are ever liberated never come in contact with maya, the external energy. The ever-conditioned souls are always under the clutches of the external energy. This is described by Lord Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita (7.14):
  daivi hy esa guna-mayi
  mama maya duratyaya
  "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome."
  
  The nitya-baddhas are always conditioned by the external energy, and the nitya-muktas never come in contact with the external energy." (Cc.Madhya-lila 22.14-15, purport)
  
  "The expansions of His separated forms are called living entities, and these living entities are classified according to the energies of the Lord. They are divided into two classes - eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. Eternally liberated living entities never come into contact with material nature, and therefore they do not have any experience of material life." (TLC 10, page108)
  "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." (S.B. 3.16.26, purport)

Bhakta Erick Johanson also stated (italics mine):

 

Quote # 2: "The understanding that the conditioned souls all originally fell from the spiritual world was something every beginner in Srila Prabhupada’s movement understood in the first few of days of his hearing about Krishna."

 

Question # 1: How every beginner in Srila Prabhupada's movement can understand that the conditioned souls all originally fell from the spiritual world on the basis of excerpts given the above?

 

Question # 2: If the conditioned souls all originally fell from the spiritual world, Vaikuntha and upon returning there will get their second opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly, than what would be the most reasonable explanation for the following excerpt?

 

"The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly." (Krsna Book, Ch. 28, Releasing Nanda Maharaja From the Clutches of Varuna, page may vary in different editions)

Editorial note to the reader: Last excerpt matches the original dictation tape of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder Acarya of International Society for Krsna Consciousness.

[Guest guest]

We Are All Originally Krishna Conscious Entities

 

BY: BHAKTA ERIC JOHANSON

 

Jan 21, MOAB, UTAH (SUN) — Edited By Sriman Kailasa Candra dasa.

 

Despite the worldwide impact of the mission of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the effort to minimize his importance survives and continues. Srila Prabhupada was empowered to present real Krishna consciousness to the far-flung corners of martyaloka. Millions of non-devotees were given the opportunity to hear the Holy Name of Krishna due to his activities and those of his many disciples. Srila Prabhupada’s many translations of the most prominent devotional scriptures remain thirty years later as the most widely available versions of these texts. The sheer volume of the number of books distributed in a relatively short time demonstrated the dynamic version of his bhakti movement. He literally brought the Name of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to every town and village. It is practically impossible to avoid the conclusion that he was the personality empowered by Krishna and predicted by Srila Bhaktivinode Takura. Because Prabhupada was the most recent sampradaya acarya, a shaktyavesa avatar, it behooves all sincere Gaudiya Vaishnavas to unite around him and accept his teachings and instructions as definitive, non-different from those of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna.

 

Despite this, there remain no shortage of devotees and so-called gurus who blindly stick to conclusions that oppose those given by Srila Prabhupada. Nevertheless, these same devotees benefit from the books and knowledge of Krishna consciousness that were previously given by Srila Prabhupada. These groups usually give superficial praise to the achievements of His Divine Grace in order to initially attract new members. Once they join, however, it is only then that ideas and conclusions, which Srila Prabhupada would have completely opposed during his manifest presence, are introduced.

 

“Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being. . . has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position… We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one. ...the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity... The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction." (Emphasis added)

 

The primary issue where many contemporary Vaishnava cults diverge from the version of Srila Prabhupada is in regard to the origin of the living entity or jiva soul. Srila Prabhupada taught repeatedly that the origin of the living entity was in the spiritual world and that, due to the misuse of his free will, he fell into this temporary world of illusion and repeated birth and death. Any serious follower of His Divine Grace knows that this was one of the core concepts of Prabhupada’s presentation of Krishna consciousness.

 

"As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album)

 

“As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly, we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration-therefore, many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but brahma-sayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even, he was with Krsna.” THE ORIGIN OF THE JIVA: BRAHMAJYOTI OR KRISHNA LILA? - Australian conversation with Srila Prabhupada Transcribed as Nectar of the Month, BBT Report, January, 1982)

 

Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?

Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna’s service," and they are happy in Krsna’s service.

Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it?

Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, "Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man," I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . . . ..

Bhaktijana: Has my soul ever been liberated?

Prabhupada: That you know. I do not know.

Bhaktijana: If I was once liberated...

Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. Don’t you sometimes dream that tiger is eating you? Is there any tiger? You are simply thinking. So if you keep in Krsna consciousness, that nonsense thinking will go away. Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Krsna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by Krsna consciousness. All right. Distribute prasadam. (end) (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967) (Emphasis added)

 

The understanding that the conditioned souls all originally fell from the spiritual world was something every beginner in Srila Prabhupada’s movement understood in the first few of days of his hearing about Krishna. We have explored this topic in-depth in several other articles on our website, and the reader is invited to go through these for a more thorough understanding. (see hyperlink later in this article) For the decade that Srila Prabhupada’s movement was in its growth stage, there was never a second opinion about this issue.

 

It was only after the departure of Srila Prabhupada from manifest presence that some of his alleged followers began to espouse a conflicting view about the origin of the living entity. Coincidently, all of these had some subsequent contact with the godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada and/or their disciples. To compound the controversy, virtually all of them were under the opposing idea that any living entity in the material world has never been in the spiritual world.

 

Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers were not at all prepared to give up what they had been teaching their followers in India for decades and defer to what Srila Prabhupada was teaching. Most of his godbrothers never regarded Srila Prabhupada as a big player in the movement of their guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada. There were any number of them who openly deprecated his efforts preaching in the West and accused him of cheapening Krishna consciousness in making it available there.

 

Although the real movement of any great spiritual master is the instructions he gives -- as well as those who sincerely follow them -- such movements have an institutional representation authorized by him during his manifest presence. The International Society For Krishna Consciousness or ISKCON was the name of the institution founded by Srila Prabhupada in 1966, and it was managed by the GBC, a group of men hand picked by Srila Prabhupada to take care of the nuts-and-bolts management of his worldwide movement. After his disappearance, eleven of these men unauthorizedly appointed themselves successors to His Divine Grace and demanded the rest of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples accept them on virtually the same level as Srila Prabhupada. It was the blowback from this heavy-handed treatment that severely divided Srila Prabhupada’s movement and led many senior disciples to look for guidance elsewhere.

 

Some of these approached Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers in hope of a solution. Ironically, the godbrother of Srila Prabhupada who made himself most available had also been very instrumental in advocating and encouraging the arrangement where the eleven had assumed their complete dominance. This godbrother also had been teaching the “no-fall” hypothesis in regard to the origin of the living entity. It was through him, therefore, that this teaching initially began to spread among those who had become disaffected by the GBC. This deviation spread.

 

The name “no-fall” comes from the assertion that once a purified jiva goes to the spiritual world, he does not come back to the temporary material world. In other words, according to them there is “no-fall” from the spiritual world.

 

“That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.” (Bhagavad-gita 15.6)

 

It is very easy to conclude the “no-fall” interpretation after reading this verse. However, the problem then becomes explaining where the living being has been for all eternity both in the material world and prior to his coming here.

 

It is not difficult to interpret Bg. 15.6 in a manner that is in complete accordance with Srila Prabhupada’s other statements. If a patient has a long term serious illness, he has have to make repeated visits to the hospital. If he is finally cured by a competent physician, people will say that so-and-so “never” has to return to the hospital. However, this does not mean that there is no possibility of his again becoming ill, with the same or some other disease, in the future. In other words, when the conditioned soul is delivered from his past karma by accepting the process of devotional service to the Lord and develops love of God, he is no longer spiritually sick and therefore not required to accept repeated births and deaths in the material world. He can, however, again misuse his free will in the spiritual world and have to undergo the misery all over again. The memory of his prior falldown will, of course, be a powerful preventative impetus to not make the same mistake again.

 

When the tatastha condition was discussed by Prabhupada it was in terms of the proper and improper use of the free will by the individual jiva soul, it was the infinitesimal free will available to the jiva, when misused, that caused him to fall under the material potencies of the Lord. It is the clear explanation of the concept of free will that makes Srila Prabhupada’s version the correct and superior one. According to him, free will is eternal and, therefore, does not arise all of a sudden when the sleeping jiva somehow awakens from his prior slumber within the body of Maha Vishnu. As pointed out in our article OUR ETERNAL CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION AND THE MAHA-VISHNU ORIGINATION THEORY by Sriman Kailasa Candra dasa, the jiva who rejects the service of the Lord upon “awakening” has no means to know what the service of the Lord is if he has never been engaged in it previously. Therefore, according to the “no-fall” hypothesis, his condemnation to suffering continual birth and death in the material world is ultimately due to God’s arrangement and not to his own envy. “No-fall” posits an arbitrary Supreme Being.

 

Srila Prabhupada’s version, on the other hand, is that each being in the material world has consciously rejected the supremacy of God and that, immediately upon doing so, he is overcome by the covering potency (avaranatmika-shakti) of the material energy and placed in the cycle of birth and death. It is when he again revives his attitude of pure service to Krishna that he again returns to the spiritual world.

 

Svarupa Damodara: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material. Prabhupada: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. . . . . . . .

Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and..., the two gatekeepers, they returned?

Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.

Paramahamsa: If we want.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare. The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That’s all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore."

Paramahamsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position.

Prabhupada: Yes. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) (Emphasis added)

 

This version is also supported by the previous spiritual masters.

 

“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” - Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura, Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

“It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” . . . - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

 

Sentimental and self-interested people will tend to overlook philosophical differences to proclaim a state of harmony. Genuine transcendentalists, however, will examine all conclusions, according to the scriptures in a threadbare manner, before declaring true Krishna conscious unity. Many godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada and their followers clearly do not agree with Srila Prabhupada on the issue of the origin of the living entity. Since their arguments contradict the conclusions of the empowered shaktyavesa avatar, they should give up their inferior conclusions.

 

The hesitancy of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples to accept those followers of the godbrothers is called an offense in some neo-Gaudiya circles. Followers of Srila Prabhupada who do not defer to those leaders are generally depicted as crude Westerners, who do not thoroughly understand Vaishnava etiquette.

 

What actually underlies the proclaimed “harmony,” however, is disregard, minimization, and sometimes outright envy of Srila Prabhupada, and of his transcendental achievements, generated when some of his godbrothers could not accept Srila Prabhupada’s worldwide success. Despite the overwhelming evidence of Srila Prabhupada being the successor to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada, the next sampradaya acarya, it is doubtful that all the current followers of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers (the neo-Gaudiya math) would agree to place his name after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in the disciplic succession of parampara acharyas. They do not all accept Srila Prabhupada’s version of Krishna conscious philosophy as superior. There can be no real Krishna conscious harmony on such a basis. No sincere follower of Srila Prabhupada is going to want to embrace concepts which are rooted in contradictory teachings.

 

The counter-argument is sometimes given that Srila Prabhupada agreed with his godbrothers that conditioned souls have never been in the spiritual world. It claims that he only apparently presented the opposite in order to attract people who had been raised in the Christian tradition. This argument holds very little water for anyone who has spent more than a few days reading Srila Prabhupada’s books and listening to his audio lectures. That some followers of the godbrothers claim that Srila Prabhupada was deceiving his disciples on this topic is just another indication of the esteem they actually now have for him. Their current policies are really not too different from what Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers held he was physically present.

 

In approaching Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers for siddhanta, we should remember his warning:

 

“We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.” Letter to: Rupanuga - Tirupati 28 April, 1974

 

He was also concerned that the godbrothers would teach something to his followers that contradicted his own instructions. History has shown these concerns well founded.

 

Srila Prabhupada brought the Vaishnava philosophy out of India and placed it at the center of the world stage. As a result of his preaching, billions of people heard the Holy Name for the first time. The destiny of the entire planet was substantially affected for the better by this one devotee. The potency of his preaching was shown by the sheer number of disciples who gave up degraded habits in order to become saintly. Srila Prabhupada did far more than popularize a certain religious faith. He brought the idea of the Absolute Truth before the attention of anyone who was serious about the purpose of life.

 

“One should be humble and know that he is subordinate to the Supreme Lord. Due to rebellion against the Supreme Lord, one becomes subordinate to material nature. One must know and be convinced of this truth.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.12, purport. (Emphasis added)

 

“Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport (Emphasis added)

 

“In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport.

 

Real harmony is possible only when we accept the supremacy and order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna . We are all His eternal servants. That service and subordination comes through His recognized representatives, the acaryas who have come in disciplic succession. All glories to the shaktyavesa avatar, the most recent sampradaya acarya, Om Vishnupada Paramahansa Parivrajakacarya Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

 

Quotes from the books of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are copyright by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

[Beggar 0]

 

The primary issue where many contemporary Vaishnava cults diverge from the version of Srila Prabhupada is in regard to the origin of the living entity or jiva soul. Srila Prabhupada taught repeatedly that the origin of the living entity was in the spiritual world and that, due to the misuse of his free will, he fell into this temporary world of illusion and repeated birth and death. Any serious follower of His Divine Grace knows that this was one of the core concepts of Prabhupada’s presentation of Krishna consciousness.

 

We actually debated this issue in the Miami Temple during the summer of 1972. Suprisingly about 2/3 came out on the side of the tatashta shakti concept. I remember that we came to the conclusion that devotees who came from a background of Eastern religion or yoga could generally understand the tatastha shakti concept. Those who came from a Christian or materialistic background sided with the idea that we were from Krsna Loka. Of course many Prabhupada disciples who were at one time on the "we came from Krsna Loka" side were converted to the tatashta conception by Sridhar Maharaja.

[gHari 0]

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[Guest guest]

Srila Sanatana Goswami, Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam (1.2.195):

 

vaikuntha vasino hy ete kecid vai nitya-parsadah

pare krsnaya krpaya sadhayatvemam agatah

Translation:

Some residents of Vaikuntha are eternal associates of Lord Krishna; others have come to Vaikuntha by His mercy, having gained the privilege to enter.

 

Commentary, by Srila Sanatan Goswami:

Some residents of Vaikuntha have always been there, like Ananta Sesa and Garuda. Others, like Bharata, Priyavrata, Jaya and Vijaya have come to Vaikuntha from the material world and have become associates of the Lord relatively recently, having gained entrance into Vaikuntha after successfully practicing devotional service.

[Guest guest]

 

The primary issue where many contemporary Vaishnava cults diverge from the version of Srila Prabhupada is in regard to the origin of the living entity or jiva soul. Srila Prabhupada taught repeatedly that the origin of the living entity was in the spiritual world and that, due to the misuse of his free will, he fell into this temporary world of illusion and repeated birth and death. Any serious follower of His Divine Grace knows that this was one of the core concepts of Prabhupada’s presentation of Krishna consciousness.

 

 

"What kind of great curse could affect

even liberated vishnu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse

even the Lord's associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to

fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe

this."

SB 7.1.34

 

Note that in the previous quote of Sanatan Goswami he says that Jaya and Vijaya are recent arrivals in Vaikuntha. According to the Visnu Purana, in a previous kalpa Jaya and Vijaya were the demons Madhu and Kaitabha. After being killed by Visnu they became Jaya and Vijaya and loitered at the gate of Vaikuntha. Then when they were cursed by the Kumaras they were forced to take birth again in the material world. But as the Bhagavatam shows, as Jaya and Vijaya they were servants waiting outside Vaikuntha. There is no inference that they had ever been inside Vaikuntha before they were cursed by the Kumaras.

[theist 1]

krsna how could you? Do I detect some impishness?

[gHari 0]

http://vedabase.net/sb/3/16/en

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/7/1/33/en

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/10/74/50/en

[gHari 0]

So people are being controlled by the three kinds of material nature, and if they do not follow the shastric injunction, then he will concoct, he will create something according to his position, either in the tamo-guNa or rajo-guNa or sattva-guNa. But those, means superficially doing something in the tamo-guNa, he will not be successful. He will not be successful. YaH zAstra-vidhim utsRjya vartate kAma... He is going on, conducting himself under the influence of the same modes of nature, material nature, which he has naturally adopted from his birth. There are... We have discussed all these, this verse, that sad-asad-janma, yoni-janmasu. KAraNaM guNa-saGgo 'sya [bg. 13.22]. Everyone is getting a particular type of body. So one may say, "This body is very nice, this body is not so nice and this body is very good." So why it is so? Because according to the association of the material nature. After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. There is possibility, if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in VaikuNTha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the VaikuNTha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down.

 

Now, when the spirit soul falls down? Just like Jaya-Vijaya. Jaya and Vijaya became asuras. They fell down from VaikuNTha. But they became asuras under the circumstances. That is mentioned we were reading BhAgavata the Kazyapa RSi, his wife... Diti? What is the name of? Anyway, she was very lusty during the sandhyA, just at the point of evening, the day's passing. So she wanted sex with her husband. He said, "No, this is not the time. This is not the time." But she was so lusty she obliged the husband to have sex life with her, and the result was two asuras were born. We have to take so much care. You see? According to the time, according to circumstances... Therefore the Vedic principle has got garbhAdhAna-saMskAra. To beget a child, it requires also reformation--time, mentality, situation. So... Not like cats and dogs. So, creating the background very nicely, sattva-guNa, they will beget a child. That child will come, some great man, some great devotee. So everything has got the material relationship, how to do it. That is zAstra. So you do it, but follow the shastric injunction. So the shastric injunction, so far is concerned, as it is said here, that is sAttvikI, rAjasI, tAmasI.

 

The example is: just like the same fire spark is falling down from the blazing fire... You have seen the sparks. There are sparks, fire sparks, with the blazing fire. Now, the sparks sometimes fall down outside the fire. So take the fire as spiritual world, and the spark is in the spiritual world, within the fire, but sometimes it falls down. Now, when it falls down it comes in the material world and... Now what kind of falldown it is? Now, the spark may fall down in dry grass. As soon as it falls down in dry grass, there is chance of igniting fire in the dry grass--sattva-guNa. That is sattva-guNa. And if the fire spark falls down on the ground, then for some time it looks like fiery, but again it becomes extinguished. That is rajo-guNa. And if the fire sparks falls down in water--immediately finished, no more fire. So that is the distinction, the tamo-guNa, rajo-guNa and sattva-guNa. So those who are in the tamo-guNa, they are hopeless. They can do something, waste time, but being in the tamo-guNa, just like the spark being in the water... Water and fire, they are two opposite. So if one remains in tamo-guNa, he has no chance of coming out to become fire again. There is no chance.

 

So therefore the process is to bring from the tamo-guNa to rajo-guNa, and from rajo-guNa to sattva-guNa, and then surpass sattva-guNa. That is spiritual platform. This is the way. So if you stick to the tamo-guNa principle, then there is no hope of spiritual realization. There is only hope of becoming hogs and dogs and like that. Their life is finished. So those who are trying to come to the platform of spiritual realization, God realization, they must stick to the sattva-guNa principle. Otherwise it is hopeless. It is not hopeless. Nothing is hopeless. It will take very, very long time. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gItA you will find the statement, bahUnAM janmanAm ante jJAnavAn mAM prapadyate: [bg. 7.19] "After many, many births, when one is actually wise..." Wise means in the sattva-guNa platform. "Then he surrenders to KRSNa." Then the beginning of spiritual life is there, and he may finish this course of spiritual understanding even in this life, simply by understanding KRSNa.

 

Janma karma me divyaM yo jAnAti tattvataH, tyaktvA dehaM punar janma naiti mAm eti kau... [bg. 4.9]. Everything is there, described. So try to understand Bhagavad-gItA very nicely, and even in this life you can finish your job of spiritual self-realization and may go back to home back to Godhead. Thank you very much. [break]

[Guest guest]

So what is the ultimate conclusion? Did we come from Vaikunta or not? I'm not really sure but the theory that we may have fallen seems more acceptable. Here's why- if the Lord is all merciful, why would he create a material world and give Jivas a chance to come here? If we can never fall from Vaikunta, there would be no need to create the material world.

 

 

SB 7.1.34

 

Note that in the previous quote of Sanatan Goswami he says that Jaya and Vijaya are recent arrivals in Vaikuntha. According to the Visnu Purana, in a previous kalpa Jaya and Vijaya were the demons Madhu and Kaitabha. After being killed by Visnu they became Jaya and Vijaya and loitered at the gate of Vaikuntha. Then when they were cursed by the Kumaras they were forced to take birth again in the material world. But as the Bhagavatam shows, as Jaya and Vijaya they were servants waiting outside Vaikuntha. There is no inference that they had ever been inside Vaikuntha before they were cursed by the Kumaras.

[gHari 0]

So the nitya-siddha mahA-bhAgavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach KRSNa Consciousness. This is mahA-bhAgavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but mahA-bhAgavata. How it is tested? Never forgets KRSNa. This is mahA-bhAgavata nitya-siddha. And sAdhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of mahA-bhAgavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become mahA-bhAgavata or nitya-siddha, because <B>originally everyone is nitya-siddha.

 

nitya-siddha kRSNa-bhakti ‘sAdhya' kabhu naya

zravaNAdi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

 

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mRtyu-jarA-vyAdhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, KRSNa personally comes</B>, yadA yadA hi dharmasya glAnir bhavati bhArata [bg. 4.7]. This is glAniH, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become mahA-bhAgavata.

[Beggar 0]

 

 

Commentary

 

 

by Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja

 

How does the soul first appear in this world? From what stage of spiritual existence does he fall into the material world?" This is a broad question, which requires some background information.

There are two classes of souls, jivas, who come into this world. One class comes from the spiritual Vaikuntha planets by the necessity of nitya-lila, the eternal pastimes of Krsna. Another comes by constitutional necessity.

The brahmajyoti, the nondifferentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms.

Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

Krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi bahirmukha . Anadi means that which has no beginning. When we enter the land of exploitation, we come within the factor of time, space, and thought. And when we come to exploit, action and reaction begins in the negative land of loan. Although we strive to become masters, really we become losers.

Goloka and Vaikuntha servitors are also seen to be within the jurisdiction of the brahmanda, the material universe, but that is only a play, lila. They come from that higher plane only to take part in the Lord's pastimes and then return. The fallen souls come from the marginal position within the brahmajyoti and not from Vaikuntha.

The first position of a soul in the material world will be like that of Brahma the creator. Then his karma may take him to the body of a beast like a tiger where he is surrounded with a tigerish mentality, or to the body of a tree or creeper, where different impressions may surround him. In this way, one is involved in action and reaction. The case is complex; to analyze the details of the history of a particular atom is unnecessary. We are concerned with the general thing: how the transformation of the material conception springs from pure consciousness.

Matter is not independent of spirit. In the brahmajyoti we are equipoised in the marginal potency as an infinite number of pinpoints of spiritual rays, electrons of consciousness. Consciousness means endowed with free will, for without free will no consciousness can be conceived. An atomic pinpoint of consciousness has very meager free will, and by misuse of their free will some jivas have taken their chance in the material world. They refused to submit to the supreme authority; they wanted to dominate. So, with this germinal idea of domination, the jiva enters into the world of exploitation. In the Bhagavad-gita (7.27) it is stated:

<center> iccha-dvesa samutthena

dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti parantapa </center>

 

"Two principles in a crude form awaken in the

jiva:

hatred and desire. Then, gradually the soul comes down to mingle with the mundane world."

 

At first, sympathy and apathy develop in a crude form, just as when a sprout springs up with two leaves. And gradually these two things help us to dive deep into this mundane world. Upon retiring from the world of exploitation, the soul may return to his former position in the brahmajyoti as spirit. But, if the soul has gathered the tendency of dedication through his previous devotional activities, he does not stop there; he pierces through the brahmajyoti and goes towards Vaikuntha.

Why has the soul come to the world of exploitation" and not the world of dedication? That should be attributed to his innate nature, which is endowed with free will. It is a free choice. This is substantiated in the Bhagavad-gita (5. 14):

<center> na kartrtvam na karmani

lokasya srjati prabhuh

na karma-phala-samyogam

svabhavas tu pravartate </center>

 

"The soul is responsible for his entrance into the land of exploitation."

 

The responsibility is with the soul, otherwise, the Lord would be responsible for his distressed condition. But Krsna says that the soul's innate free will is responsible for his entanglement in the material world. The soul is conscious, and consciousness means endowed with freedom. Because the soul is atomic, his free will is imperfect and vulnerable. The result of that free choice is that some are coming into the material world, and some are going to the spiritual world. So, the responsibility is with the individual soul.

Once, an Indian political leader, Syamasundara Cakravarti, asked our spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada, "Why has the Lord granted such freedom to the jiva ?" Prabhupada told him, ""You are fighting for freedom. Don't you know the value of freedom? Devoid of freedom, the soul is only matter." Freedom offers us the alternative to do right or wrong. Once, Gandhi told the British authorities, ""We want freedom."' They replied, "You are not fit to have self-government. When you are fit, we shall give it to you." But finally, he told them, "We want the freedom to do wrong." So, freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; freedom has its value independent of right and wrong.

Free will is only absolute with the Absolute Truth. Because we are finite" our free will is infinitesimal. The possibility of committing a mistake is there. Our first choice was to dominate" and so, gradually we have entered the world of domination. As a result of this first action, everything else has developed. So, in different ranks" the species have been divided" from the demigods down to the trees and stones. And watery bodies, gaseous bodies, anything that we find here has evolved in that way. The activating principle in any form of embryological development is the soul, and from the soul, everything has evolved."

______________________________

Additional information for our readers: (In the beginning of his reply to the question as to how the soul first appears in the material world, Srila Sridhar Maharaja mentions that this requires some background. Similiarly, before some of our readers can accept Srila Sridhar Maharaja's above statements as being important guidance for ISKCON in the matter of philosopy we would like to give some background information.

Shortly before departing from this world our spiritual master, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada instructed his disciples, that if they had any questions regarding philosophy they should approach his Godbrother, Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaja. "For philosophy you may go to my Godbrother, Sridhar Maharaja at Navadwip.) This has been amply documented in "Our Affectionate Guardians."

[gHari 0]

CC Madhya 20.107<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>nitya-siddha kRSNa-prema ‘sAdhya' kabhu naya

zravaNAdi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

</CENTER>

nitya-siddha--eternally established; kRSNa-prema--love of KRSNa; sAdhya--to be gained; kabhu--at any time; naya--not; zravaNa-Adi--by hearing, etc.; zuddha--purified; citte--in the heart; karaye udaya--awakens.

<B></FONT>

"Pure love for KRSNa is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens.</B></BLOCKQUOTE>

[gHari 0]

Time and tatastha. Do not all the jivas pour into either the spiritual world or material world immediately? What are the mechanics of the tatastha region and the unborn jivas?

[Beggar 0]

 

. After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. There is possibility, if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in VaikuNTha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the VaikuNTha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down.

 

Now, when the spirit soul falls down? Just like Jaya-Vijaya. Jaya and Vijaya became asuras. They fell down from VaikuNTha. But they became asuras under the circumstances. That is mentioned we were reading BhAgavata the Kazyapa RSi, his wife... Diti? What is the name of? Anyway, she was very lusty during the sandhyA, just at the point of evening, the day's passing. So she wanted sex with her husband. He said, "No, this is not the time. This is not the time." But she was so lusty she obliged the husband to have sex life with her, and the result was two asuras were born. We have to take so much care. You see?

 

We have to take so much care. You see?

 

This is Srila Prabhupada's mood as the ultimate pragmatic preacher. He's crossing siddhanta to keep his young disciples in line. He knows that the tatastha siddhanta could be misused by those with impersonalist leanings. He knows that those coming from Christian backgrounds will be confused by it. He has so much work to do to spread the Sankirtan Movement and he wants to engage everyone whether they can understand the real siddhanta or not. Trouble is that thirty years later you have some guy named Eric Johanson making propaganda against the real Gaudiya siddhanta. These guys don't think reality is paradoxical and are situated in duality. Just another attempt to Christianize the Krsna Consciousness Movement.

[gHari 0]

I fear it is all wasted time, since my mind, my words cannot touch eternity. I am just not equipped to juggle my words there.

[Beggar 0]

<center></center>

[Guest guest]

The process of getting out of this material world will not change regardless of how we came in. The focus should be on getting out of burning house, not on how the fire started.

 

There's nothing wrong in ruminating about these topics but to go out and make the kind of propaganda that Eric Johanson is doing, is just not right.

 

 

Trouble is that thirty years later you have some guy named Eric Johanson making propaganda against the real Gaudiya siddhanta. These guys don't think reality is paradoxical and are situated in duality. Just another attempt to Christianize the Krsna Consciousness Movement.

[theist 1]

I should like to disagree with beggar and his analysis of Srila Prabhupada's motives. Do you have some proof to back up your speculation as to why Srila Prabhupada did this or said that? Hot line in to his mind maybe? Beware of such speculative tendancies.

 

Tal fruit settled the question for me until I am fit to enter that realm and see first hand.

 

This is a fruitless quibble.

[Beggar 0]

 

I should like to disagree with beggar and his analysis of Srila Prabhupada's motives. Do you have some proof to back up your speculation as to why Srila Prabhupada did this or said that? Hot line in to his mind maybe? Beware of such speculative tendancies.

 

Tal fruit settled the question for me until I am fit to enter that realm and see first hand.

 

This is a fruitless quibble.

Sridhar Maharaja implied this. Bhakti Sundar Govinda M. told me this directly. (although I am not really his follower) And I asked Narayana M. the same question and got the same exact answer, (likewise - although I am not really his follower). Then I told Bhakti Bibudha Bodhayan M. what Narayana M. said about ABC's for beginning students and he thoroughly agreed.(likewise - although I am not really his follower). So for me case closed.

[theist 1]

 

Sridhar Maharaja implied this. Bhakti Sundar Govinda M. told me this directly. (although I am not really his follower) And I asked Narayana M. the same question and got the same exact answer, (likewise - although I am not really his follower). Then I told Bhakti Bibudha Bodhayan M. what Narayana M. said about ABC's for beginning students and he thoroughly agreed.(likewise - although I am not really his follower). So for me case closed.

 

So then quote them. Until you hear from Srila Prabhupada directly then I suggest you stop putting his name on your beliefs.

[Guest guest]

I have to come to Beggars defense here. This is a forum and Beggar is simply sharing what he believes based on what he has heard & learnt. I don't see anything wrong in it. Just like the Bhagavatam being allegorical discussion.

 

 

So then quote them. Until you hear from Srila Prabhupada directly then I suggest you stop putting his name on your beliefs.

[Guest guest]

The scriptures say souls in this world have been stuck in a cycle of reincarnation "since time immemorial". To those who believe that all the souls who have taken birth in this world were originally in Vaikuntha, including moquitoes, scorpions and, yes, Saddam Hussein, I will ask this question:

 

What do you make of Krishna's statement -

 

Declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish. (Bhag.-gita 9.31)

 

If you think Saddam Hussein was originally in Vaikuntha, and was originally serving Krishna in Vaikuntha, why has Krishna allowed this devotee of his to perish? The man has done so many evil things, and in his next life he will certainly suffer - for millions of lifetimes, perhaps.

 

What then of Krishna's statement:

 

Declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish. (Bhag.-gita 9.31)

[gHari 0]

Saddam versus Hiranyakasipu, ..... battle of the demons. Which one came from Vaikuntha?

[Guest guest]

 

Saddam versus Hiranyakasipu, ..... battle of the demons. Which one came from Vaikuntha?

 

 

Neither of them.

 

 

Srila Sanatana Goswami, Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam (1.2.195):

 

vaikuntha vasino hy ete kecid vai nitya-parsadah

pare krsnaya krpaya sadhayatvemam agatah

Translation:

Some residents of Vaikuntha are eternal associates of Lord Krishna; others have come to Vaikuntha by His mercy, having gained the privilege to enter.

 

Commentary, by Srila Sanatan Goswami:

Some residents of Vaikuntha have always been there, like Ananta Sesa and Garuda. Others, like Bharata, Priyavrata, <b>Jaya and Vijaya have come to Vaikuntha from the material world and have become associates of the Lord relatively recently</b>, having gained entrance into Vaikuntha after successfully practicing devotional service.