Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

[theist 1]

 

I have to come to Beggars defense here. This is a forum and Beggar is simply sharing what he believes based on what he has heard & learnt. I don't see anything wrong in it. Just like the Bhagavatam being allegorical discussion.

 

And I have a right to challenge those beliefs just like anyone is free to challenge mine.

[gHari 0]

So we sit for an eternity in the brahmajyoti in a slumber state. Then we somehow become agitated into consciousness and turn toward maya. Then we travel up and down and all around 8,400,000 species of life in the material world until we either return to the brahmajyoti (where it all starts all over again) or we advance to Vaikuntha (where we stay forever).

 

I must now consider what effect this new history has on my life right this moment.

[theist 1]

 

The scriptures say souls in this world have been stuck in a cycle of reincarnation "since time immemorial". To those who believe that all the souls who have taken birth in this world were originally in Vaikuntha, including moquitoes, scorpions and, yes, Saddam Hussein, I will ask this question:

 

What do you make of Krishna's statement -

 

Declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish. (Bhag.-gita 9.31)

 

If you think Saddam Hussein was originally in Vaikuntha, and was originally serving Krishna in Vaikuntha, why has Krishna allowed this devotee of his to perish? The man has done so many evil things, and in his next life he will certainly suffer - for millions of lifetimes, perhaps.

 

What then of Krishna's statement:

 

Declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish. (Bhag.-gita 9.31)

 

No one's material body or false identity as in Saddam Hussein, can be a devotee of Krsna. That is reserved for the living soul. And the soul that animated the image of that which we call Saddam Hussein is eternal and still living. So who perished.

 

But I believe we are not catching the context of Krsna's statement to Arjuna.

[theist 1]

This subject is understandabale by those free from the influence of time on their thinking. Good brain excercise though.

[gHari 0]

Maybe we skipped these Bhagavatam references given earlier:

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/7/1/33/en

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/10/74/50/en

 

 

Clearly, "Jaya and Vijaya have come to Vaikuntha from the material world and have become associates of the Lord relatively recently" does not necessarily mean that they were admitted into Vaikuntha after Lord Nrsmha killed Hiranyakasipu, if that was the inference.

[Guest guest]

 

So we sit for an eternity in the brahmajyoti in a slumber state. Then we somehow become agitated into consciousness and turn toward maya. Then we travel up and down and all around 8,400,000 species of life in the material world until we either return to the brahmajyoti (where it all starts all over again) or we advance to Vaikuntha (where we stay forever).

 

I must now consider what effect this new history has on my life right this moment.

 

 

I did some calculations recently, which I found interesting.

 

 

According to the Padma Purana, there are

900,000 aquatics,

2 million kinds of vegetation,

1,100,000 kinds of insects and reptiles,

1 million bird types,

3 million kinds of four-legged animals and

400,000 kinds of humans, sages and devas.

 

Thus there are 8 million non-human bodies and the remainder are human.

 

Say for instance we think that a soul spends ten years in each non-human body (on average; but then most bodies will live for much less than that, as in the case of microscopic organisms and insects). This will mean that it takes about 80 million years for a soul to migrate from an amoeba body to a human body.

 

A day of Brahma lasts 150,000 million years.

 

Therefore, in each day of brahma a soul is likely to evolve to the human form about 1875 times.

 

In other ages besides the Kali age, a soul is likely to progress to a higher world. And of those, many souls will attain liberation eventually.

 

 

Thus, it is not unreasonable to suggest that in each day of brahma most souls will get to evolve up to a stage approaching liberation, and at the same time a great number of souls will also fall from samadhi and become engrossed in Maya.

 

 

In this regard, there is the following verse of Srimad Bhagavatam (10.2.32):

ye 'nye 'ravinda-ksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avis'uddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena parampadamtatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-an'ghrayah

 

A person may attain liberation in brahman, attaining param-padam, or in other words sayujya mukti. In that state of liberation a soul has no karma, no material bondage. However, "patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-an'ghrayah", the liberated souls absorbed in brahman can fall down into the material world and become caught in the networks of karma again and again.

[krsna 3]

Ädi 2.117

 

siddhänta baliyä citte nä kara alasa

ihä ha-ite kåñëe läge sudåòha mänasa

SYNONYMS

siddhänta—conclusion; baliyä—considering; citte—in the mind; nä kara—do not be; alasa—lazy; ihä—this; ha-ite—from; kåñëe—in Lord Kåñëa; läge—becomes fixed; su-dåòha—very firm; mänasa—the mind.

TRANSLATION

A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one’s mind becomes attached to Sri Krsna.

 

PURPORT

 

 

 

There are many students who, in spite of reading the Bhagavad-gétä, misunderstand Kåñëa because of imperfect knowledge and conclude Him to be an ordinary historical personality. This one must not do. One should be particularly careful to understand the truth about Kåñëa. If because of laziness one does not come to know Kåñëa conclusively, one will be misguided about the cult of devotion, like those who declare themselves advanced devotees and imitate the transcendental symptoms sometimes observed in liberated souls. Although the use of thoughts and arguments is a most suitable process for inducing an uninitiated person to become a devotee, neophytes in devotional service must always alertly understand Kåñëa through the vision of the revealed scriptures, the bona fide devotees and the spiritual master. Unless one hears about Çré Kåñëa from such authorities, one cannot make advancement in devotion to Çré Kåñëa. The revealed scriptures mention nine means of attaining devotional service, of which the first and foremost is hearing from authority. The seed of devotion cannot sprout unless watered by the process of hearing and chanting. One should submissively receive the transcendental messages from spiritually advanced sources and chant the very same messages for one’s own benefit as well as the benefit of one’s audience.

When Brahmä described the situation of pure devotees freed from the culture of empiric philosophy and fruitive actions, he recommended the process of hearing from persons who are on the path of devotion. Following in the footsteps of such liberated souls, who are able to vibrate real transcendental sound, can lead one to the highest stage of devotion, and thus one can become a mahä-bhägavata. From the teachings of Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu to Sanätana Gosvämé (Madhya 22.65) we learn:

çästra-yuktye sunipuëa, dåòha-çraddhä yäìra

‘uttama-adhikäré’ sei täraye saàsära

“A person who is expert in understanding the conclusion of the revealed scriptures and who fully surrenders to the cause of the Lord is actually able to deliver others from the clutches of material existence.” Çréla Rüpa Gosvämé, in his Upadeçämåta (3), advises that to make rapid advancement in the cult of devotional service one should be very active and should persevere in executing the duties specified in the revealed scriptures and confirmed by the spiritual master. Accepting the path of liberated souls and the association of pure devotees enriches such activities.

Imitation devotees, who wish to advertise themselves as elevated Vaiñëavas and who therefore imitate the previous äcäryas but do not follow them in principle, are condemned in the words of Çrémad-Bhägavatam (2.3.24) as stone-hearted. Çréla Viçvanätha Cakravarté Öhäkura has commented on their stone-hearted condition as follows: bahir açru-pulakayoù sator api yad dhådayaà na vikriyeta tad açma-säram iti kaniñöhädhikäriëäm eva açru-pulakädi-mattve ’pi açma-sära-hådayatayä nindaiñä. “Those who shed tears by practice but whose hearts have not changed are to be known as stone-hearted devotees of the lowest grade. Their imitation crying, induced by artificial practice, is always condemned.” The desired change of heart referred to above is visible in the reluctance to do anything not congenial to the devotional way. To create such a change of heart, conclusive discussion about Çré Kåñëa and His potencies is absolutely necessary. False devotees may think that simply shedding tears will lead one to the transcendental plane, even if one has not had a factual change in heart, but such a practice is useless if there is no transcendental realization. False devotees, lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge, think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them. Similarly, other false devotees think that studying books of the previous äcäryas is unadvisable, like studying dry empiric philosophies. But Çréla Jéva Gosvämé, following the previous äcäryas, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Ñaö-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees. Such false devotees are like impersonalists, who also consider devotional service no better than ordinary fruitive actions.

[theist 1]

I wonder what that means exactly. Not everything controversial is edifying. So on this particular topic we have been advised not to worry over it but yet we insist on rehashing it every few months.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada says this...Srila Prabhupada says that....Sheesh How many times have we heard these things?

 

From the different view points put forward by people here I have come to the conclusion that there are many many Srila Prabhupadas:

 

The GBC version.

The Ritvik version.

The those-who-actually-met-and-spoke-to-him version.

The GM version

The Prabhupada-is-the-only-bona-fide-guru-ever version

The Chaitanya-Saraswata-Matha version

The Narasingha-maharaja version

The I-understand-Srila Prabhupada-better-than-anyone-else version

 

And there are more...

 

What cracks me up is that you have people who never actually met Srila Prabhupada ranting and raving and saying things like: Srila Prabhupada says....

 

Why do people here not say Srila Bhaktisiddhanta says...Srila Bhaktivinoda says....Srila Visvanatha Chakravarti says....Srila Rupa Gosvami says....as much as they Srila Prabhupda says.

 

I'm always amazed at how often I come across devotees who know next to nothing about our great acaryas. It's Srila Prabhupada or nothing for them. Which begs to question. Why?

 

Guru means guru parampara which is a chain of gurus of which each guru is a link. Without the chain a guru is meaningless.

 

I love and respect All of the gurus in our parampara.

 

Btw...go fing out what the rest of the guru paramapara says about jiva tattva.

 

Even better go read the Sanatana Siksha section of Chaitanya Charitamrta see read what Mahaprabhu has to say on the matter.

[gHari 0]

"Lord Brahmä continued: Those two principal doorkeepers of the Personality of Godhead have now entered the womb of Diti, the powerful semen of Kaçyapa Muni having covered them.

 

PURPORT

<B>Here is clear proof of how a living entity coming originally from Vaikuëöhaloka is encaged in material elements. "</b>

[gHari 0]

From http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/10/120/en

 

In the Gaura-gaëoddeça-dépikä (115) it is said that the two brothers Jagäi and Mädhäi were formerly the doorkeepers named Jaya and Vijaya, who later became Hiraëyäkña and Hiraëyakaçipu.

[sumedh 0]

As a matter of general principle, when faced with contradictory statements the original sources should be consulted. When there are contridictions in smriti then arbitration is made in sruti etc. It is a fact that there are directly contradictory statements made by Srila Prabhupada on this subject. Thus for any useful discussion the works of Goswamis, smritis and sruti should be consulted and quoted. As pointed out by others, speculating about the motives of Srila Prabhupada is not useful but accepting contradictory statements would not show well either.

[krsna 3]

Origin of Jiva

 

 

BY: AVADHOOT MAHARAJ

 

 

Jan 25, USA (SUN) —

 

A kind thanks to Purujit Das for submitting the quotes of our Srila Prabhupada confirming the fact that the tiny jeeva-soul does not and cannot fall from the spiritual world which in the 3rd Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam Srila Prabhupada emphasized in two very strong purports which emphatically declared that the spiritual world is the Lord's own abode and no one can fall from that abode ever. 'It is a fact' Srila Prabhuada stated.

 

The other point is that the very first verse of the first Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, which is spotless and pure proof, declares, 'dhamna svena sada', that the spiritual abode is forever free from illusion [Maya]. Therefore, by simple logic if a place is free from envy and spite, then how can it be possible to commit offense? How can anything other than Krishna consciousness enter one's mind? There is no Maya there at all. It is completely free of illusion. That being the case, no one can contemplate anything that would warrant his or her being rejected. It is preposterous and predicated on false assumptions.

Srila Prabhupada said that our philosophy is so perfect, that even if Krishna was not God, it wouldn't matter [as a joke of course].

[theist 1]

 

As a matter of general principle, when faced with contradictory statements the original sources should be consulted. When there are contridictions in smriti then arbitration is made in sruti etc. It is a fact that there are directly contradictory statements made by Srila Prabhupada on this subject.

 

I would humbly suggest that not you or any of us here at this forum are qualified to make such a statement. You may say apparently contradictory statements and that would be more honest but to state empatheically that "it is a fact..." means that you have full understanding of the meaning of both the statements in question . I doubt that you do since the understanding of this subject is visible ONLY to one who thinking is free from the influence of the illusory concept of past prsent and future. That is my contention.

 

Let's all (includes me) be more careful.

 

 

 

Thus for any useful discussion the works of Goswamis, smritis and sruti should be consulted and quoted. As pointed out by others, speculating about the motives of Srila Prabhupada is not useful but accepting contradictory statements would not show well either.

 

There is another way of approaching this subject. And that is by NOT directly attempting to resolve it and instead let the Lord reveal it to us in the time that He deems best. This requires patience and the willingness to admit that we do not know the answer at present.

 

To think that we shall approach the Gosvami's is not as clear cut as you make it seem. The works of the Gosvamis are made known to us by the translations of others who may slant the translations in favor of their pre-conceptions . So you may think you are consulting directly with the Gosvami's when in fact you are a least one degree removed from them.

 

However this is not unlike my proposal which is to consult the Lord in the heart. That is really going to the source. And until we recive an answer from Him we must be patient in our ignorance on the matter. That itself is no real problem since there is an ocean of other Krsna conscious subjects that can concentarte on.

 

"...speculating about the motives of Srila Prabhupada is not useful..."

 

Thank you for that.

 

This post is peacefully submited.

[theist 1]

Riddle us this:

 

Since there is no past present and future in the spiritual world there can be no fall.

But yet can we deny that we are presently fallen?

 

Once we have entered eternity we will learn that we never left. How could it be otherwise and our actually being in eternity?

[sumedh 0]

 

Riddle us this:

 

Since there is no past present and future in the spiritual world there can be no fall.

But yet can we deny that we are presently fallen?

 

There are a couple of points here:

* There can be no fall in the spiritual world alright, but that does not apply to the material world. In particular the notion of eternity itself has different meanings in spiritual and material worlds.

* Although in english we loosely use the word eternity, it actually is used to denote different things in different contexts. In Sanskrit we find different words e.g. anadi for beginless time (but not necessarily without end), anant for endless time (but not necessarily without beginning), nitya for eternity. So the entanglement of jiva in matter is termed anadi, and the disentanglement as anant but both w.r.t. the material world.

 

 

Once we have entered eternity we will learn that we never left. How could it be otherwise and our actually being in eternity?

 

It is not really true that we shall learn that we never left, rather that we shall be there for endless material time.

[sumedh 0]

 

I would humbly suggest that not you or any of us here at this forum are qualified to make such a statement. You may say apparently contradictory statements and that would be more honest but to state empatheically that "it is a fact..." means that you have full understanding of the meaning of both the statements in question . I doubt that you do since the understanding of this subject is visible ONLY to one who thinking is free from the influence of the illusory concept of past prsent and future. That is my contention.

 

Well any reading of the statements would lead one to that conclusion. Since no reconciliation has been provided yet of those statements (and the limitations of English where there are no defined notions of mukhyartha/gaunartha/... for translations/commentaries yet) without resorting to motives or impossible new meanings to the words, hence the statement. But you are right. Please modify the statement to read "It seems that there are contradictory statements made by Srila Prabhupada on this subject."

 

 

There is another way of approaching this subject. And that is by NOT directly attempting to resolve it and instead let the Lord reveal it to us in the time that He deems best. This requires patience and the willingness to admit that we do not know the answer at present.

 

Which is fine apart from the problem that this approach is useless in a discussion and that there is hardly anyone who can distinguish between genuine "revelation" from Paramatma and illusion.

 

 

To think that we shall approach the Gosvami's is not as clear cut as you make it seem. The works of the Gosvamis are made known to us by the translations of others who may slant the translations in favor of their pre-conceptions . So you may think you are consulting directly with the Gosvami's when in fact you are a least one degree removed from them.

 

For one, there are well defined rules for giving primary/secondary/... meanings to Sanskrit translations making our job easier. Another is that consulting the sadagamas (sruti, sattavic puranas ...) for these rules out "motive" and other such theories. In this particular issue the problem is that the jiva fall theory is unheard of before in Vedantic circles, and one that would be impossible to hold using the commonly (common as in accepted by all schools) accepted scriptures.

 

This issue is just an example. My point, however, is that we should not hesitate to consult the original scriptures when such issues arise particularly in view of contradictory positions of other devotees and our inability to hear the Paramatma (at least speaking for myself, when in the past i would easily believe "intuitive" knowledge as coming from Paramatma which was incorrect).

[krsna 3]

Origin of the Living Entity - Part 2

BY: PURUJIT DASA

 

Jan 25, USA (SUN) — A further response to "We Are All Originally Krishna Conscious Entities".

 

Bhakta Erick Johanson stated:

• 
  
  Quote # 1: "This version is also supported by the previous spiritual masters."
  Quote # 2: "Therefore, according to the “no-fall” hypothesis, his condemnation to suffering continual birth and death in the material world is ultimately due to God’s arrangement and not to his own envy. “No-fall” posits an arbitrary Supreme Being."
  

 

 

"Version" of quote # 1 refers to the idea that nitya-siddha Manjaris, Gopis, Gopas and Surabhis of Sri Goloka Vrindavana are constantly falling from there to become polished animals of this material world. This version belongs to a brand of philosophy technically called mayavada-bhasya. Neither Supreme Lord nor His eternal nitya-siddha servants could be even touched and what to speak about being covered by maya at any time as Srila Prabhupada repeatedly taught. For Srila Prabhupada's own words confirming eternally liberated position of nitya-siddhas please reffer to the first part of my response here.

 

None out of our previous spiritual masters ever supported the above mentoned version. There is no Vedic Sastra accepted in either of the five Vaisnava Sampradayas that states that nittya-siddha devotees fall from the spiritual world.

 

I will quote verbatim the entire article by Sriman Kundali Dasa who is a good friend of mine. Article is based on words of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura from Jaiva Dharma. It was published on the internet quite sometime ago for everyone to read and "no rights were reserved".

 

As for "condemnation to eternal suffering by the Lord" and "an arbitrary Supreme Being", please stay tuned and the "fairness question" will be addressed below.

 

<CENTER>From Jaiva Dharma

By Kundali Dasa</CENTER>

 

These passages are culled from Chapters 15 and 16 of Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. They call for a very close, thoughtful reading. Anyone who gets what is explained here will find that for him or her the question of the jiva’s origins is closed once and for all.

 

From Chapter Fifteen:

• Vrajanatha: In the svarupa of the jiva there is no product of maya. This has to be accepted. The nature of the jiva can be influenced by maya. This I have also understood. Now I want to know if the internal potency (chit-shakti) has created the jiva by giving it the marginal nature? [Vrajanatha is asking about the conditioned souls.]
  Babaji: No, chit-shakti is the complete potency of Krishna. Whatever it manifests are all nitya-siddha objects. The jiva is not nitya-siddha; he becomes sadhana-siddha through sadhana and enjoys bliss like the nitya-siddha. The four types of sakhis of Sri Radha are nitya-siddhas; they are kaya-vyuha manifestations of Sri Radha, who is the personification of the chit-shakti.
  All the jivas have appeared from the jiva-shakti of Lord Krishna. Just as chit-shakti is Krishna’s complete potency, similarly the jiva-shakti is His incomplete potency. All complete objects have appeared from the complete potency, similarly from the incomplete potency come the innumerable atomic jivas. Lord Krishna, presiding over each of His potencies, manifests His various expansions correspondingly. Presiding over the chit potency, He manifests His Krishna form and that of Lord Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. Presiding over His jiva-shakti, He manifests His vilasa form of Baladeva in Vraja. Becoming situated in His maya-shakti, He manifests the three Vishnu forms-Karanadakashayi, Ksirodakashayi, and Garbhodakashayi.
  From His Krishna form in Vraja, He manifests all the chit entities. From His Baladeva form as Shesha tattva, He manifests the nitya-mukta jivas who are associates that render service in eight ways to Lord Krishna, the Sheshi tattva. Again, becoming Sankarshana as Shesha rupa, He manifests eight types of eternal associates to render service in eight ways to Sheshi, Narayana. Maha-Vishnu, an incarnation of Sankarshana, becoming situated in the jiva-shakti as Supersoul, manifests the living entities of the material world. [Note this tidbit.] All these jivas (coming from Maha-Vishnu) are disposed to maya. Until they attain the shelter of the pleasure potency (hladini shakti) of the chit world, by the mercy of the Lord, they are prone to be defeated by maya. The unlimited conditioned jivas being defeated by maya remain under the influence of her three modes. Therefore the principle is that only the jiva-shakti manifests jivas and not the chit-shakti.

 

 

Dear Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis, this last sentence means that no one here was ever in Vaikuntha, the domain of the chit-shakti, so they could then fall here. If there is any doubt about this explanation, Bhaktivinoda Thakura further writes Chapter Sixteen:

• 
  
  There are unlimited jivas who are eternal associates of the Lord. In Goloka Vrindavana; they are manifested by Lord Baladeva for the service of Lord Krishna. In Vaikuntha they are manifested by Sri Sankarshana for the service of Lord Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. They are eternally and blissfully engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, always situated in their svarupa, always striving to make the Lord happy, always favorable to the service of the Lord, and always powerful with the energy of the chit-shakti. They have absolutely no relation or contact with the inert maya. Indeed they do not even know that there is an energy called maya. Because they live in the spiritual region, maya remains very far from them. They are always absorbed in the bliss of service to their worshipable Lord. They are transcendental to mundane misery and happiness and are always liberated. Their very life is love, and they have no conception of lamentation, fear, and death.
  The atomic conscious jivas, who come out like rays from Maha-Vishnu’s glance at maya, are also uncountable. Being in proximity to maya, these jivas see the variegatedness of maya. They have all the characteristics of the ordinary jivas as described before, yet because of their atomic nature they sometimes glance marginally towards the spiritual creation and sometimes towards the material creation. [Note: This glancing takes place here, because the jives under discussion have never been in the spiritual world. The use of the word "remain" two sentences ahead, indicates that they are choosing from here.] In this marginal state the jiva is weak, because he has not yet attained spiritual power by the mercy of the worshipable Lord. Out of these unlimited jivas, the ones who desire to enjoy maya remain eternally bound by maya, because of being attached to sense enjoyment. Those who engage in devotional service to the Lord go to the spiritual world getting the strength of the chit-shakti by the mercy of the Lord.
  

 

 

So, after this bit, Vrajanatha comes up with basically the "fairness" question. And Babaji replies. So it is important to read this next passage very carefully, to catch the drift, so to speak.

• Vrajanatha: Lord Krishna is the embodiment of mercy. Why did He make the jiva weak and thereby cause his bondage by maya? [Note: Jiva here refers only to the conditioned souls.]
  Babaji: It is right that Krishna is merciful, but He is also lilamaya, or one who performs only lila. Considering that various types of lilas will be performed under various situations, the Lord made the jiva competent for unlimited gradations of positions from the marginal state up to the topmost platform of mahabhava. To facilitate the jivas and make them firm in their competence for these various positions, He created many low levels associated with maya, which present unlimited obstacles in the attainment of the supreme bliss. These range from the lowest inert matter up to false ego. The living entities bound by maya are in ignorance of their svarupa, engaged in acquiring pleasure for themselves, and not devoted to Krishna. In this state, as much as the jiva goes down, that much more the merciful Lord-becoming manifest before him along with His associates and abode-gives him the facility to attain the ultimate destination. Those jivas who accept that facility try to achieve this highest destination. Gradually they reach the transcendental abode of the Lord and attain the exact same status as His eternal associates.

 

 

A class of "weak" jivas exists to enable the Lord, who is lilamaya, to have the full range of lila, which the Lord must have so He can be "complete." We are those "weak" jives. Without this facility He could not be said to enjoy all varieties of lila. At the same time the weak jiva has the inherent capacity to reach the apex of development by taking to devotional service. Thus, the Lord, in another aspect of His variegated lila, incarnates within the material energy to teach. As the culmination of that form of lila, the Lord comes as Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and teaches the fallen jivas the highest destination possible, the attainment of mahabhava in the mood of the gopis. Bhaktivinoda continues (take a breadth, pause, exhale, and read carefully):

 

• Vrajanatha: Why does the Lord give trouble to the jivas for the sake of his lila?
  Babaji: The quality of free will in the jiva is a special mercy of the Lord on them, because an inert object without free will is very insignificant. Because of this independence the jiva gains lordship over the inert material world. Misery and happiness are states of mind. What we consider misery, a person attached to it considers happiness. The end result of all types of material happiness is misery and nothing else. A man attached to sense gratification ultimately attains misery. When this misery increases then it gives rise to the desire for happiness. This desire leads to discrimination, which brings inquisitiveness. Because of inquisitiveness one attains the association of saints, which gives rise to faith. By faith one ascends the path of progression. Just as gold is purified by heating it in fire and beating it with a hammer, in the same way the jiva who is affected with the contaminations of sense enjoyment and non-devotion to Krishna is purified by putting him on the anvil of the material world and beating him with the hammer of miseries. The misery of the conditioned jiva ultimately brings him pleasure. Thus misery is an instance of the Lord’s mercy. Therefore the misery that befalls jivas as part of Krishna’s lila appears auspicious to the farsighted and miserable to the short sighted.

 

 

The Lord’s material energy is inert. No pleasure results from lila with inert matter, "because an inert object without free will is very insignificant." We see that kids playing with plastic figures personify them and imagine them to be animate, because inanimate figures are boring. So jivas are the animate figures for the Lord’s lila, and this is not some artificial imposition, because we are constitutionally His servants. We exist for His pleasure and are at His disposal. The jivas, owing to their free will, attempt to lord it over matter and the duality of misery and happiness is set in motion. This is really a state of mind, but ultimately the sense of misery leads the jiva to inquire about happiness. So misery has an important function-it serves as impetus for the weak class of jivas to take to spiritual life and become strong. The end result of material happiness is misery and the end result of misery, spanning many lifetimes (bahunam janmanam ante), is the happiness of Krishna consciousness. In this way, all aspects of lila are possible for the Lord, who is by nature lilamaya. Bhaktivinoda continues:

 

• Vrajanatha: The misery in the conditioned state is ultimately auspicious, yet it is painful at present. Was it not possible for the omnipotent Lord to find some other solution to this miserable process?
  Babaji: Krishna’s lila is very wonderful and of myriad types, and this is also one type of astonishing lila. The supremely independent Lord performs all types of lila; why would He not perform this type? To maintain all varieties, no lila can be abandoned. Besides, even if some other type of lila is performed, the instruments (jivas) of that lila have to accept some form of trouble. Lord Krishna is a purusha (dominant person), and an agent. All instruments (jivas) are under the will of the purusha. They are objects, or in other words, that which is acted upon by the purusha, whereas the purusha is the agent, or He who acts. Being under the will of an agent, it is natural that they will experience some misery. If that misery is ultimately pleasurable, however, then it is not misery. Why are you calling it misery? The apparent misery which nourishes Lord Krishnas lila is supremely blissful for the jiva. Abandoning the pleasure aspect of Lord Krishna, the jiva, who has free will, has accepted the misery, which comes as a result of absorption in maya. If anyone is to be blamed then that is jiva, not Krishna.

 

 

The abandonment of the pleasure aspect of Lord Krishna takes place here, because the choice is here. Sometimes devotees say that the choice was made in the marginal potency, where the jiva could see the spiritual and the material world. However this is incorrect because there is no actual domain called the marginal potency. Jiva and marginal potentcy (tatastha shakti) are identical. It is not a locality where the jiva is situated. The jiva is the marginal potency. So all these considerations leave only one clear option that creates no inconsistency with any other part of the philosophy. Jivas are here and the choice to be spiritual or material is made from here.

The unlimited and omnipotent Lord would be limited and impotent if He did not perform all varieties of lila, and He would not be supremely independent. The jivas are like the subjects that are ruled by the king, the agent. Their independence is minute, not absolute. They are under the will of the Lord and, being under another’s will, it is natural that one has misery. However, because this misery leads to pleasure it should not be taken as misery. And in any event, the choice is always open to the living entity to reject lording it over matter and accept the pleasure aspect of the Lord. Although he has never been in the nitya-lila of the Lord, and although he has been in the Lord’s material lila from a time without beginning (anadi), the choice to be in material consciousness or spiritual consciousness is made by the jiva. Hence the jiva alone is responsible for being in the bondage of karma in the material world.

[theist 1]

 

This issue is just an example. My point, however, is that we should not hesitate to consult the original scriptures when such issues arise particularly in view of contradictory positions of other devotees and our inability to hear the Paramatma (at least speaking for myself, when in the past i would easily believe "intuitive" knowledge as coming from Paramatma which was incorrect).

 

I am not suggesting not consulting scriptures. But in what manner do we approach the scriptures? If we approach them on the strength of our mind and intellect we will be sorely disappointed.

 

If we first petition the Lord in the heart to please reveal the truth to us and in that spirit approach the scriptures I believe the result will be fruitfull.

 

Sanskrit rules have long been in place I believe and yet some those using those rules hear the Bhagavad-gita as an Advaita scripture and the others hear it as a Vaisnava scripture. So I see a limitation in placing my faith in my intellectual understanding of sanskrit and applying those rules properly.

 

Krsna is not obligated to reveal anything about anything no matter how qualified we may be. So it behooves us to first and continously humble ourselves before Him and beg Him to reveal Himself and His ways to us.

 

This has nothing to do with being able to hear the Supersoul directly. It has everything to do with the Supersoul hearing us and kindly responding.

 

You have not addressed my point about the origin of the soul in relationship to living in the eternal present where past and future have no meaning. Afterall the soul is of that eternal nature.

 

The reason this is important is that everyone is trying to understand this subject in a way that is dependent upon sequential events i.e.In brahman then falling then becoming Krsna conscious and then going back to Godhead.

 

I believe this type of approach has the flaw of our seeing the issue from our own relative and conditioned states. We are looking from the outside in and trying to apply the relative reality that we live in to what we think we see on the inside not taking into consideration that "inside" has it own distinct reality which in this case means the time conception is irrelevant. And since we all agree the origin of the soul happens somehow or other from the inside position then we must realize our hopelessness of coming to an understanding of it from our outer relative position. Thus the only solution to our dilemna is in the hands of the Lord and His willingness to reveal it to us.

 

Don't discount approaching Supersoul. There is no success without Him.

[krsna 3]

 

 

A Short Presentation on Jiva-tattva <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=620 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>

jiva-tattva index

</TD><TD>By Swami B. B. Visnu

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The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord.... it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

 

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=550 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>[The Spiritual World] contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions...

It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

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Purpose:

 

 

 

To present pertinent quotes from sastra, acaryas and our acarya (Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) on the subject of jiva-tattva in a logical way that shows conclusively that the living entities in the spiritual world do not fall from there. We have purposely avoided making statements or including references which are ambiguous, as they distract the reader from the focus of this paper. The necessity for this paper arises due to the continued misunderstanding of the actual siddhanta on jiva-tattva by a section of devotees. Many illogical statements have been made in defense of the theory that we fall from the Lord's eternal lila. We will show by analysis of rasa-tattva and logic that is is completely impossible and illogical for living entities to fall from the spiritual world.

 

 

 

Evidence:

 

 

 

All evidence given by all Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas, sastra, and Vaishnava publications directly states that we do not fall from the spiritual world [either Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana]. When the primary meaning of evidence is clear and coherent there is no necessity to interpret it, as stated by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu:

 

 

 

For each

sutra

the direct meaning must be accepted without interpretation. However, you simply abandon the direct meaning and proceed with your imaginative interpretation. Although there is other evidence, the evidence given in the Vedic version must be taken as foremost. Vedic versions understood directly are first-class evidence. (

Cc. Madhya-lila

6.134-5, texts)

 

 

 

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No Fall References: The living entities [jivas ] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned... [the first are] always awake to Krsna consciousness,... eternal associates.. eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 22.10-11, text) In the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text) Websters New World Dictionary defines "infallible" as: 1- incapable of error, never wrong, 2-not liable to fail, go wrong, make a mistake etc, 3-incapable of error in setting forth doctrine on faith and morals.

The third characteristic of Vaikuntha is that one does not fall (Bhag.-sand. 61) Free jivas are never enslaved. (Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, Lecture, Bhaktisiddanta S Thakura ) The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.) . . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)

The conclusion [re Jaya-Vijaya] is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

... they never fall into the material world. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purp.)

 

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord.... it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

 

The question is that, why the living entity falls down? It is not falls down. Just like Jaya-Vijaya came just to satisfy his master. His master desired fighting, so some of His servant went to the material world and became great enemy." (720405SB.MEL)

 

Nitya-mukta

means they never come in this material world. (Bhag. June 19, 1972, Los Angeles)

 

In the spiritual world... inhabitants...They're

aksara.

They do not fall down. Ksara

aksara.

We are

ksaras.

We have fallen down in this material world. But there are devotees in the spiritual world, in the Vaikunthaloka, they never come down. Never come down in this material world, but they are also persons like us, but eternal persons, with full knowledge and life of blissfulness. That is the difference between them and us. (741105SB.BOM)

Statements taken as indicating that the origin of all living entities in this material world is by falling from the Lord's lila are obtained thru misinterpretation of secondary indirect statements and not primary direct statements. According to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, one must consider direct first hand evidence rather than subsidiary indirect statements interpreted according to one's necessity. To introduce ambiguous statements and interpret them distorts the clear meaning of the primary evidence further. The Our Original Position book (OOP's) clouds the issue by presenting inconclusive arguments without answering the many contradictions pointed out in this presentation.

 

Sarvabhauma Battacarya tried to defeat Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu with many false arguments: "The word

vitanda

indicates that a debater, not touching the main point or establishing his own point, simply tries to refute the other person's argument. When one does not touch the direct meaning but tries to divert attention by misinterpretation, he engages in

chala.

" (

Cc. Madhya-lila

6.176, purp.)

For example, a verse sometimes cited as evidence of falldown is Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.2.37,

 

 

bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatah syad

isad apetasya viparyayo ’smrtih

tan-mayayato budha abhajet tam

bhaktyaikayesam guru-devatatma

 

 

When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord, he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord. This bewildering, fearful condition is effected by the potency for illusion, called

maya.

This verse does not make any reference to liberated souls nor even to the spiritual world. No acaryas have explained this verse as indicative of falldown from Vaikuntha, indeed this verse states that this condition of turning away from the Lord is brought about by maya, which is not present in Vaikuntha (cf. Bhag 2.9.10: na yatra maya ). Proponents of the "Fall Theory" like to equate statements such as "forgetting Krsna" as synonomous with the assumption that we were with Krsna in the spiritual world and forgot Him. Srila Prabhupada however dispelled this misunderstanding in a letter to Jagadisa Dasa in 1970:

 

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature?

 

Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called

susupti

which is exactly like deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs.

The understanding that is presented here very clearly by Srila Prabhupada is much different than that interpreted by some–that we were all originally with the Lord in His lila in the spiritual world. In the purport of this famous Bhag. 11.2.37, krsna bhuli verse (alsoCc. Madhya-lila 20.117) Srila Prabhupada explains the text of this verse, translated as "Forgetting Krsna" as meaning

 

When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Krsna.

Furthermore, the statements presented above of Srila Prabhupada and other acaryas, directly refuting the fall hypothesis are completely ignored by proponents of this hypothesis without any attempt to reconcile them. Therefore the burden of proof lies with those proposing this fall theory. Additional references are available at:

 

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_1.html

 

Free Will

Free choice is an inherent quality of all living entities, yet this quality is greatly misunderstood. As we will show, residents of the spiritual world are blissful and are never forgetful of their eternal position as servitors of the Supreme Lord and therefore will never misuse their free will. All living entities in the spiritual world are on the same transcendental platform. References for this are given later in this presentation. There is no more chance for a jiva to leave the spiritual world than it is possible for Baladeva to give up his relationship with Lord Krsna.

 

A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called maya, is always available, otherwise there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly. (Bhag. 3.31.15, purp.)

 

The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom. (Bhag. 1.8.23, purp.)

 

The living beings are given as much freedom as they deserve, and misuse of that freedom is the cause of suffering. The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom, and therefore they are the good sons of the Lord. (Bhag. 1.8.28, purp.)

 

A pure devotee of the Lord is so purified in his heart that he cannot leave the shelter of Lord Krsna in any circumstances. There is no self-interest in such service. (Bhag. 2.8.6, purp.)

 

Bhaktijana:

When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?

Prabhupada:

Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service. (670218CC.SF)

 

Krsna says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: "I am now talking to you the most confidential words."

Sarva-guhyatamam.

"You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy." (731213mw.la)

In the ISKCON GBC Position booklet (OOPs p. 194) it is stated that the residents of the spiritual world have the free will to leave, as a crazy man has the free will to jump off the roof. In this booklet they state that these residents are indeed crazy (bewildered) when they leave. This explanation is very insubstantial and misleading. In the material world we always have the choice between matter and spirit but in the spiritual world there is no matter so one will not and cannot choose matter.

The living entity enmeshed in maya sees no viable choice besides maya, in the sense that he is attached and thinks that this life of maya is in his best interest. Although he has the free choice to choose spiritual life, he sees this as a threat to his sense gratification and therefore undesirable. In the spiritual world however, the living entity, fully absorbed and overwhelmed with ecstatic love, cannot bear the thought of doing anything averse to the Lord's interest—seeing this as a threat to his continued absorption in pure loving ecstatic devotional service—his very life. In the spiritual world, all the living entities are fully self-realized. As shown below in section 6a, they have fully realized the conclusions of sastra—that they are an eternal servant of the Lord, and they are fully experiencing their realizations of eternal blissfulness. It is not that they know every last detail of sastra. For example, some of the gopis were previously the Personified Vedas. Although as gopis, they are celebrated as exhibiting the highest standard of devotion and are recognized as such by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu—ramya kacit upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena, they had almost no knowledge of the Vedas, and state as much in their wonderful prayers upon meeting their beloved Krsna after so long at Kuruksetra. (Bhag. 10.82.48) Yet we should not agree with them that they are ordinary girls simply engaged in household affairs. They are the personification of the Vedas, absorbed in the highest mellows of devotion—krsna-prema.

Thesis

The source of the dispute over the siddhanta regarding the origin of the jiva stems from the fact that vast amounts of devotees are not well read in the Goswami's literatures, have not understood their conclusions properly and thus do not properly know the siddhanta. A lack of proper understanding or appreciation of the most dear associates of the Lord is shown, for instance, by those who try to equate the appearance of the pure devotee Tulasi-devi in this material world as synonomous with that of ordinary conditioned jivas.

 

...

tulasi

is given special preference by the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.19, text)

 

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains... Urja is [the Lord's] internal potency for performing pastimes; she expands as the

tulasi

plant in this world. (Bhag. 10.39.53-5, purp.)

 

Tulasi Devi never goes back to Godhead, she is always with Godhead. She is a pure devotee and thus she has appeared on this planet to render service to Krsna by being offered in all temples throughout the world, by being offered up to the lotus feet of Krsna. (SP Ltr Radhavallabha: 6 January, 1972)

 

Yes, Sri Tulasi is the eternal consort of Krsna, and the most pure devotee, and therefore, the Tulasi plant is worshipped by Vaisnavas. (SP Ltr Balai: 22 March, 1968)

 

Sastra says, "Tulasi is the greatest devotee of Krsna." We have to accept, that's all. Authority. How she is so great devotee, that you will understand when you become a devotee. (730222SB.AUC)

 

People present many illogical arguments,

kutarka.

They consider the Lord in Goloka and the eternal transcendental variety, in the form of the eternal relation between the worshipable Lord and His devotees, equal to the temporary activities of the conditioned souls under the influence of

maya.

Many arguments are raised in such philosophy considering the eternal transcendental objects equal to the material inert objects, but reality is not so. The pastimes of the

svarupa-sakti

of the Lord are not equal to the temporary endeavors of the conditioned soul in the material world. (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura,

Vivrti

on

Bhag.

3.7.11)

In fact to think that any associate of the Lord in the spiritual world can fall from His association showns a lack of understanding of the basic intrinsic nature of the Lord's svarupa-sakti and it's wonderful all absorbing ecstatic attribute, Krsna-prema.

Prema References:

 

In the material world there cannot be

prema. Prema

means love. The

prema

is only possible in the spiritual world. (720522SB.LA)

 

Conclusion is that when you get your spiritual body then the desire will be different. And that is

prema

...in the spiritual world, because there is no material body, only desire is how to satisfy Krsna.

Kama krsna karmarpane.

(761127SB.VRN)

 

In the Vaikuntha planets there is actual, spiritual

ananda

. Krsna is there in His ecstatic, spiritual form, surrounded by His blissful associates, all of them eternally full of bliss and knowledge. They have nothing to do with material existence. In the spiritual planets even the scenery and birds and animals are fully conscious of Krsna and are absorbed in transcendental bliss. (Bhag. 11.2.37, purp.)

Antithesis

If we [incorrectly] assume that the siddhanta is that we do fall from the spiritual world, we are faced with a host of contradictions which cannot be resolved. The bulk of this presentation is concerned with documenting these contradictions with quotes from sastra, our acaryas and Srila Prabhupada.

The official Iskcon GBC presentation, Our Original Position, fails to prove that the nitya-mukta jivas fall from the spiritual world. Inconclusive statements are given in an attempt to show that the jivas all originated in this material world by falling from the Lords lila in the spiritual world. This OOPs book does not address the real arguments or resolve the innumerable contradictions which arise from their hypothesis.

The jivas originate from the tatastha.

Innumerable references from prominent acaryas, some of which are given below, clearly and repeatedly state that the marginal jivas originate from the tatastha-sakti of the Lord and not in the spiritual (cit-sakti) realm itself.

 

It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres. (

Tattva Viveka

2.4, by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, page 55)

 

The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is

avidya.

Avidya

is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This

avidya

did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of

karma

of the

jiva

arose when he was at the

tatastha

position. As such, the beginning of

karma

is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account

karma

is beginningless. (

Jaiva Dharma,

pag 234)

The previous reference is also quoted in OOP's on page 269 but rather than accept this straightforward statement for what it is, it is lamely suggested that we shouldn't try to understand such things. One may then intelligently ask, "Then why have you written the OOPs book at all?!"

 

There are two types of

jivas

liberated from

maya: nitya-mukta

, eternally liberated, and

baddha-mukta,

those who were bound but became liberated. The

jivas

who were never bound by

maya

are called

nitya-mukta.

The

nitya-muktas

are also of two types,

aisvarya gata nitya mukta

and

madhurya gata nitya mukta.

The former are the associates of Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha and are the atomic particles from mula Sankarsana. The latter are the associates of Lord Krsna in Goloka. They are the atomic particles of Sri Baladeva situated in Goloka Vrndavana. (

Jaiva-Dharma,

Chapter 17, p. 251)

The following reference is very clear and straightforward, presented exactly as translated and published in English by leading devotee scholars under the direction of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

 

The jivas have grown out of the

jiva-shakti

of Sri Krishna.

Chit-shakti

is Sri Krishna's full (plenary)

shakti,

whereas the

jiva-shakti

is the incomplete

shakti.

From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the

jivas

as atomic

chit...

When he desired to have His adherent attendance '

nitya parshada

' servitors in His Transcendental plane Goloka- Vrindavana, Vaikuntha, etc, He through Baladeva created those Eternal Parshada as

nitya-mukta jivas

at those divine worlds... Again at Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) He, as Sankarshana, reveals the eternally free associate

jivas

for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Sri Narayana. Maha Vishnu, the incarnation of Sankarshana, establishing Himself in the heart of

jiva-shakti

as Paramatma,

creates

the

jiva-souls

of

tatastha shakti.

These

jivas

are susceptible to the influence of

maya

... As such, the

conclusion

is that it is the

jiva-shakti

that begets the

jivas,

and not the

chit-shakti.

" (Bhaktivinode Thakura,

Jaiva Dharma,

Chapter 15)

 

According to

Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita

and all other Vedic literature's, the living entities are generated from the

tatastha

energy of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purport)

 

The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in

Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-ananda-koti.

(

Bhag.

4.30.5, purport)

 

As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. (

C.c. Madhya-lila

5.22)

 

The all-pervading feature of the Lord - which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the

jiva-sakti

(living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls - is known as Brahman. (

Isopanisad

16, purp., 9th parag.)

 

It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres. (

Tattva-viveka

2.4, purp.)

Unexplainable contradictions inherent in the "Fall Theory:"

 

• There are no sastric statements that we fall from the spiritual world nor are there any references anywhere to a "mukta-baddha " living entity--that is, a nitya-mukta living entity that has fallen from the spiritual world and become nitya-baddha. Bhaktivinode Thakura in his Jaiva Dharma lists three types of living entities and gives specific information of their creation by the Lord. That is, the nitya-mukta parsada's of Vaikuntha are generated by Sankarsana, the nitya-mukta parsada's of Goloka Vrndavana are generated by Balarama and the marginal jivas of the tatastha-sakti are generated from Maha Vishnu. He does not mention a fourth type of entity, nor does any other authoritative source anywhere mention such an entity.

-- The only statements, both in sastra and by Vaishnava acaryas are that the residents of the spiritual world are infallible and are eternally resident there--forever free from the influence of maya. Innumerable commentaries by prominent Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas clearly indicate that we do not fall from the spiritual world. Srila Prabhupada also states that "the conclusion is that no one falls." (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) These clearly stated "no fall" statements cannot even begin to be reconciled by the "fall theory" advocates. This one point in itself renders the "fall theory" inconclusive and erroneous. There is no sastra sangati--reconciliation of contradictory statements of sastra or acaryas. To present a non-sastric and incomplete explanation that the residents of Vaikuntha have not actually fallen but are only daydreaming about mahamaya is not at all consistent with the numerous quotes presented herein--the residents of Vaikuntha never forget Krsna, never are influenced by maha-maya, are eternally blissful etc. If they experience any dreams they would certainly be about Krsna.

-- All bonafide Vaishnava acaryas and publications unanimously state that the living entities do not fall from the spiritual world. [4] In recent years, there are some devotees that have published views contrary to those of the Vaishnava acaryas in hopes of establishing their own siddhanta. This is not acceptable. Numerous quotations from prominent Vaishnava authorities are presented in our web site:

 

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_10.html

 

 

We have heard the siddhanta that no one falls from the spiritual world personally from many many highly exaulted Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas, in addition to our own Guru Maharaja, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada [the conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world: Bhag. 3.16.26 purp], such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja, recognized by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura as sastra-nipuna (scriptural genious), Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Maharaja, chief editor of the daily spiritual newspaper Nadiya Prakasa during and after the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Madhava Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, a leading disciple of Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja, the sannyasa guru of Srila Prabhupada, and leading sannyasi disciples of Srila Prabhupada such as Jagat Guru Swami B. G. Narasingha and Swami B. V. Tripurari and many others. And they are repeating what they learned from their Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and his direct disciples.

Although Srila Prabhupada mentions having differences with his godbrothers and the Gaudiya Matha he never once even suggests that they do not understand the siddhanta. It is highly unlikely that they would say something different from that which was taught to them by their Guru Maharaja. These aforementioned Vaisnavas are seniormost in terms of their realizations and spiritual standing, so their knowledge and realization should not be completely disregarded. Additionally, our godbrother, the late Gour Govinda Maharaja, was highly learned in siddhanta and scrutinizingly studied the commentaries of our acaryas, especially Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. He was known for his uncompromizing firm stand with the "No Fall" siddhanta.

-- The residents of the spiritual world are extremely happy and being very much in love with Krsna, could never consider leaving.[5a]. Yogamaya always acts to perfect the Lord's lila. [5b] Residents cannot become envious [5c] and there is no disharmony there. [5d]

5a- References showing that the residents of the spiritual world are extremely happy and being very much in love with Krsna, could never consider leaving.

 

The

nitya-siddha

devotees love Krsna millions of times more than their own selves. They all have eternal, blissful qualities just like Lord Krsna. (Brs. 2.1.290, text)

 

Whether boys, youths, or grown-up persons-every one of the millions of cowherd residents of Vraja feels himself the dearest to Krsna. (Brhad-bhag. 2.6.211, text)

 

Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes in

Govinda-bhasya,

"One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord." He further states that this is because of their extreme mutual love and cites four verses as evidence (Bg. 7.17, Bhag. 9.4.68, 9.4.65 and 2.8.6).

 

For a devotee who has actually developed bhava, the pleasure derived from

dharma,

artha, kama

and

moksa

appears like a drop in the presence of the sea. (Cc. Adi-lila 7.85, text)

 

The Lord's pure devotee renders service unto the Lord out of unalloyed love only, and while discharging such devotional service the pure devotee forgets the position of the Supreme Lord. [bhag. 1.8.31, purport]

 

The conception of spiritual bliss (Brahmananda) is fully present in those planets ... That eternal land is full of transcendental enjoyment and full of beauty and bliss. (Bhag.2.6.18, purp.)

 

For all living entities to be attracted toward Krsna is natural, and therefore the Lord's real name is Krsna, meaning He who attracts everyone and everything. The typical examples of such attraction are found in Vrndavana, where everything and everyone is attracted by Krsna... all living beings are attracted by Krsna. This is the natural situation of everything in Vrndavana. Just contrary to the affairs of Vrndavana is the material world, where no one is attracted by Krsna and everyone is attracted by maya. This is the difference between the spiritual and material worlds. (

Bhag

. 7.5.14, purp.)

 

The Vrndavana-lila of Krsna is the perfect presentation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's simply enjoying. And all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis, the cowherd boys, Maharaja Nanda, Yasoda, everyone is simply anxious how to make Krsna happy. They have no other business. The inhabitants of Vrndavana has no other business than to satisfy Krsna, and Krsna has no other business.

Yasoda-nandana brajajana-rajana.

He's acting as the little son of Yasoda, and His only business is how to please the inhabitants of Vrndavana.

Yasoda-nandana brajajana-rajana.

[710217CC.GOR]

 

In the spiritual world there is no such distinction. The officer and the cleaner, they are of the same importance. That is even Krsna, with Krsna. That is spiritual world. In Vrndavana the cowherds boys, they are playing with Krsna on equal terms. They do not know Krsna is God. They simply know how to love Krsna, that's all. There is no need of thinking that "Krsna is greater than the other cowherds boy. They are living entities." There is no such sense. Krsna wants that. That is Goloka Vrndavana worship. Simply the center is Krsna, and all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, they love Krsna, and they do not know anything except Krsna. This is Vrndavana life. Everyone knows that "Krsna is my very intimate friend." Somebody knows, "Krsna is my son," somebody knows that "Krsna is my master," and somebody is thinking, "Krsna is my lover." But center is Krsna. The cows, the calves, the friends, the gops, and the cowherds boy, Krsna's father, Nanda Maharaja, Krsna's mother, Yasomati, and . . . Everyone's center is Krsna, "How Krsna will be happy?" This is Vrndavana life. (750312DP.LON)

 

Vrndavana means this attachment to Krsna. Central point is Krsna, but the varieties of attachment, they are the same. The only difference is that this attachment centering round Krsna is never broken. (750709SB.CHI)

5b- The Yoga-maya energy of the spiritual world always acts to perfect the Lords lila.

 

Yogamaya... acts to perfect all the pastimes of the Lord with His different types of devotees. (

Bhag

. 2.7.30, purp.)

 

The transcendental happiness exhibited in the spiritual world and all other spiritual manifestations there are made possible by the influence of

yoga-maya,

the internal potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (

Bhag

. 3.15.26, purport)

 

When a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by

yoga-maya,

not

maha-maya.

(Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

 

There is some action of the internal potency of the Lord in the exchange of feelings between Him and His eternal associates... The Lord exchanges transcendental relations in five ways, as proprietor, master, friend, son and lover, and in each of these pastimes He plays fully by the potency of

yogamaya

, the internal potency. He plays exactly like an equal friend... exactly like a son... exactly like a lover... exactly like a husband... Such devotees...think of Him exactly as a common friend, a pet son, or a lover or husband very much dear to heart and soul. That is the relation between the Lord and His transcendental devotees... When the Lord descends, He does so along with His entourage to display a complete picture of the transcendental world, where pure love and devotion for the Lord prevail without any mundane tinge of lording it over the creation of the Lord. (

Bhag

. 1.11.39, purp.)

 

The Lord's pure devotee renders service unto the Lord out of unalloyed love only, and while discharging such devotional service the pure devotee forgets the position of the Supreme Lord. [

Bhag

. 1.8.31, purport]

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami has elaborately explained... One of the fundamental philosophical principles of the

Srimad-Bhagavatam

is the distinction between two types of illusion, Yoga-maya and Maha-maya, the spiritual and material states of existence, respectively. Although Krsna is God, the omnipotent, omniscient Supreme Being, His intimate associates in the spiritual world love Him so much that they see Him as their beloved child, friend, lover and so on. So that their ecstatic love can transcend the boundaries of mere reverence, they forget that Krsna is the Supreme God of all the universes, and thus their pure, intimate love expands unlimitedly. (Bhag. 10.28.13, purp. by disciples of Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada)

 

Yogamaya means the mercy of the Supreme Lord which connects a devotee in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and mahamaya means the external potency of the Lord which puts a conditioned soul into illusion that he will be happy by material adjustment. Ltr Aniruddha 68-11-14

 

The Lord and His pure devotees are always beyond the range of Maya's action. Even though they appear like action of Maya, we should understand their action of Yogamaya or the internal potency of the Lord. SP Ltr Satsvarupa 68-04-03

 

Yogamaya means the mercy of the Supreme Lord which

connects a devotee

in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and mahamaya means the external potency of the Lord which puts a conditioned soul into illusion that he will be happy by material adjustment. (Ltr Aniruddha 68-11-14)

 

By the influence of the Lord's yogamaya potency, Krsna's cowherd boyfriends think themselves His equals and sometimes challenge Him. A boy will climb on His back and say, "What kind of a big man are You?" Similarly, when mother Yasoda or Srimati Radharani chides Krsna, He likes it. (NBS 2.27)

5c- Envy does not manifest in the spiritual world.

 

The most important thing about the spiritual world is that there is no envy among the devotees there. (Bhag. 3.15.19, purp.)

 

Where not only is life eternal, blissful and full of knowledge... ignorance, misery, egoism, anger and envy–are completely absent. (Cc. Madhya 5.22, purp.)

There is no envy in the spiritual world. The OOP's book states that when a resident there becomes envious he must leave because envy is not allowed. We do not agree that envy can manifest even for a fraction of a second. If you wish to light a match in a gas filled room and think that you may go outside after lighting the match you will blow yourself up first, you cannot have the fire in the room for a moment. Similarly envy cannot even manifest in the spiritual realm--the nature of the spiritual world is such that the unpleasant conditions under which envy and other negative material qualities may develop are completely absent there, as we have shown with the many references quoted herein.

5d- References that there is absolutely no disharmony in spiritual world

 

In the Vaikuntha world there is complete harmony between the residents and the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Bhag. 3.15.33, text)

 

In the Vaikuntha world there is no question of enmity between the Lord and the residents. (Bhag. 3.15.32, purport)

 

... are absolutely in harmony with the Personality of Godhead, or in other words, they always think of the Lord as their only dependable friend and well-wisher. (Bhag. 2.2.18, purp.)

 

In the Vaikuntha world there is no disharmony between the Lord and the residents. Therefore God's creation in the Vaikuntha world is perfect. There is no cause of fear. The entire kingdom of God is such a completely harmonious unit that there is no possibility of emnity. Everything there is absolute . . . Maya means disharmony between the living entities and the Supreme Lord, and Vaikuntha means harmony between them. (Bhag. 3.15.33, purp.)

 

[in the spiritual world] those who are in oneness with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, however, are called infallible. Oneness does not mean that they have no individuality, but that there is no disunity. (Bg. 15.16, purp.)

 

In the spiritual world... there is no disparity because everyone wants to render service to the Supreme Lord, and no one wants to imitate the Lord in becoming the beneficiary. (Bhag. 1.15.25-6, purp.)

 

There the devotees are so much in accord with Krsna and Visnu that there is no question of disagreement. (690411rc.ny)

 

There is no more

jati

, no more distinction. Everything serving. That one. The master is also spiritual, and the servant is also spiritual, and there is no other relationship. Here in the material world we artificially want to become . . . we want to become God. But in the spiritual world there is no such conception. (741216SB.BOM)

-- Many statements exist in sastra and the writings of Gaudiya Acaryas which clearly indicate that the residents of the spiritual world are all self-realized [6a], full of knowledge and six opulences [6b], infallible [6c], are pure devotees [6d], have no desires [6e] and are suddha-sattva/cinmaya-rasa [6f]. A detailed investigation of these qualities clearly reveals that it is impossible for those possessing such qualities to ever desire to leave the spiritual world. [6g]

6a- References showing that the residents of the spiritual world are all self realized

 

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka... are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. (Bhag. 6.1.34-6, purp.)

 

Those who are in the spiritual world are known to be completely self-realized because on the spiritual platform the living entity is not forgetful of his service to the Lord. (Bhag. 4.24.33, purp.)

Definitions of Self Realized:

 

Knows his constitutional position perfectly well. (Bg 5.20, purp.)

 

Fixed in the understanding that his eternal position is to serve in association with the Supreme Lord. (Bhag. 3.26.2, purp.)

 

To know the individual self and the reciprocal exchanges of loving service between the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the living entity is real self-realization. (Bhag. 3.27.28-9, purp.)

 

Those who are in the spiritual world are known to be completely self-realized because on the spiritual platform the living entity is not forgetful of his service to the Lord... they are eternally fixed for they understand the position of the Supreme being, as well as their individual constitution. (Bhag. 4.24.33, purp.)

 

Even in the midst of great distress, a self-realized sage does not lose control of himself, nor is his spiritual knowledge lost... His mind is fixed on the Supreme Personality of Godhead... he cannot be surpassed or overwhelmed. (Bhag. 11.8.5. purp.)

 

According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, a self-realized soul cuts all doubts to pieces by direct experience of his true spiritual identity... there is no possibility of any existence separate from Lord Krsna. (Bhag. 11.11.12-13, purp. by disciples of Srila Prabhupada)

6b- The residents are completely fixed in knowledge of their constitutional position.

<DIR>The following quotes prove that every resident of the spiritual world is fully cognizant in their sat-cit-ananda spiritual body and cannot become illusioned; additionally, illusion being a product of maya, is not allowed there–na yatra maya (Bhag. 2.9.10). They have free choice but but being in full knowledge and infallible they choose to use it properly and never wish to imitate the Lord.

 

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance... (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

 

According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, we can understand from this verse that since none of the material facilities available in any of the universal planetary systems can distract a pure devotee of the Lord, such a devotee can never possibly fall or become inimical to the Lord's service. (Bhag. 11.2.53, purp. by disciples of Srila Prabhupada)

 

In the spiritual world... no one wants to imitate the Lord in becoming the beneficiary. (Bhag. 1.15.25-6, purp.)

 

In the spiritual world, there is no forgetfulness by the living entities, who are free from all kinds of contaminations resulting from the forgetful state of existence... the whole atmosphere of the spiritual world is called

vidya,

or full of knowledge. (Bhag. 2.6.21, purp.)

 

. . . in that pure conscious state [in the spiritual world] the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. (Bhag. 2.9.1, purp. last parag.)

 

A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. (Bhag. 3.5.29, purp.)

 

A

nitya-mukta

never forgets his position as the eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who does not forget this position and knows that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord is

nitya-mukta

. (Bhag. 4.16.19, purp.)

 

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are

nitya-mukta,

everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. (

Bhag.

6.1.34-6, purp.)

 

A man with full knowledge knows perfectly well that there cannot be any existence without Krsna. (

Bhag.

7.15.58, purp.)

 

An exalted and pure devotee like Maharaja Ambarisa is in full awareness of Paramatma, Brahman,

maya,

the material world, the spiritual world, and how things are going on everywhere. (

Bhag.

9.5.25, purp.)

 

... he never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (

Cc. Madhya-lila

20.118, purp.)

 

. . .the

nitya-siddhas

are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness. (Nectar of Devotion, p. 205)

 

[the

nitya-mukta

living entity] never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (

Cc. Madhya-lila

20.118, purp.)

 

The living beings in Vaikunthaloka are never forgetful of their identities: they are eternally cognizant of their relationship with God (

Cc. Madhya-lila

5.22, purp.)

 

Within this material world there are different grades of forms, and according to the grade, knowledge is proportionately manifested. For example, the knowledge in the body of a child is not as perfect as the knowledge in the body of an adult man. Everywhere there are different grades of living entities–in aquatic animals, in the plants and trees, in the reptiles and insects, in birds and beasts and in the civilized and uncivilized human forms of life. Above the human form of life there are demigods, Caranas and Siddhas on up to Brahmaloka, where Lord Brahma lives, and among these demigods there are always different grades of knowledge. But past this material world, in the spiritual sky, everyone is in full knowledge, and therefore all the living entities there are engaged in devotional service to the Lord, either in the Vaikuntha planets or in Krsnaloka. (

Krsna Book,

Ch 28)

 

The description of the spiritual world...

Suddha-sattva

means simply goodness, pure goodness... And in pure goodness we can understand our constitutional position: we can understand what is God, what is creation, everything... So the living entities there, they are full of knowledge. Therefore they do not come into this material world. (661217CC.NY)

 

Root of forgetfullness is

avidya,

which is not present in the spiritual world. (cf.

Cc. Madhya-lila

6.155)

 

Cit

means that he's full of knowledge. That is not in ignorance. This material happiness is in ignorance. And spiritual happiness is

suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva

means pure goodness...

Sattvam visuddham, visuddham vasudeva-sabditam.

That is transcendental platform, and in that platform you can understand God. (690618SB.NV)

 

In the spiritual world the form is

sac-cid-ananda-vigraha.

Every form is eternal, full of knowledge and full of bliss. That is the difference between material world and spiritual world. (760419BG.MEL)

 

Nitya-siddhas

means they never come in contact with this material world, and even if they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is

nitya-siddha

. Try to understand. (Bg. Lecture, July 14, 1973, London)

</DIR>We contrast these descriptions of self-realization and full knowledge regarding the residents of the spiritual worlds with that presented in the GBC Position Booklet. Therein, "full of knowledge" is defined as "possessing only a small portion of knowledge according to ones small capacity and necessity." It is also stated that, "the living entity, covered by envy, cannot recognize that he will suffer in the material world...Covered by lust, the living entity forgets his original knowledge and enters into the material domain to try to satisfy his desires." Here in particular, three gross mistakes are made. The first mistake is the assumption that "full knowledge," in reference to the residents of the spiritual world, can be interpreted to mean that these residents are not fully self realized as shown above and therefore they make the mistake of choosing to go to the material world. The second mistake is that the living entity may be covered by envy and lust while still within the spiritual world. The third mistake is that a resident of the spiritual world has desires to satisfy. These points have already been discussed and validated in this essay.

6c- References that the residents of the spiritual world are infallible

 

. . . and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text)

 

Deathlessness, fearlessness and freedom from the anxieties of old age and disease exist in the kingdom of God. (

Bhag

. 2.6.19, text)

 

The spiritual world... is especially meant for those who will never be reborn. (

Bhag

. 2.6.20, text)

 

The Lord and His eternal servitors in the transcendental kingdom all have eternal forms which are auspicious, infallible, spiritual and eternally youthful. (Bhag. 2.6.18, purport)

 

In the

Padma Purana,

Uttara-khanda

, it is stated ...the three-fourths manifestation of God's creation... contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions... It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world. (

Bhag

. 2.9.10, purport)

 

The three-fourths part manifestation of God's creation... contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions... everything in the transcendental world is everlasting, full of knowledge and bliss without any deterioration. (720426SB.TOK)

 

The Lord has His internal energy also, which has another creation known to be the Vaikunthalokas, where there is no ignorance, no passion, no illusion and no past and present. With a poor fund of knowledge one may be unable to understand the existence of such things as the Vaikuntha atmosphere, but that does not nullify its existence. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

6d- References that residents of the spiritual world are pure devotees

 

In the spiritual sky there are spiritual planets known as Vaikunthas, which are the residence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees. (Bhag. 3.15.13, text.)

 

... Vaikuntha planets, in each of which the Supreme Personality of Godhead... enjoys Himself in the association of unlimited numbers of pure devotee associates. (Bhag. 2.2.31, purp.)

 

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha... are pure devotees. (Bhag. 3.15.17, purp.)

6e- References that pure devotees (such as the residents of the spiritual world) have no personal desires (for sense gratification).

 

In the Vaikuntha planets all the residents are similar in form to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. thay all engage in devotional service to the Lord without desires for sense gratification. (Bhag. 3.15.14, text)

 

In Vaikunthaloka there is no occupation but the service of the Lord, and this service is not rendered with a purpose. Although every service has a particular result, the devotees never aspire for the fulfillment of their own desires; their desires are fulfilled by rendering transcendental loving service to the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.14, purport)

 

... Such transcendental birds stop their own singing simply to hear the glories of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.18, text)

 

This verse reveals the absolute nature of Vaikuntha. There is no difference between the birds there and the human residents... The special feature of Vaikunthaloka is that there is no question of sense gratification. (Bhag. 3.15.18, purp.)

 

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha... although crowded by their consorts... cannot be stimulated to passion. (Bhag. 3.15.20, text)

 

The men are so absorbed in Krsna consciousness that the beautiful bodies of the women cannot attract them... the residents of Vaikuntha have a better standard of pleasure, so there is no need of sex pleasure. (Bhag. 3.15.20, purp.)

 

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

 

Desireless means... to be conscious of one's actual position and thus desire satisfaction only [of] the Supreme Lord. Srila Jiva Gosvami has explained this desirelessness as

bhajaniya-parama-purusa-sukha-matra-sva-sukhatvam

in his

Sandarbha.

This means that one should feel happy only by experiencing the happiness of the Supreme Lord. ... the spirit of

akamah

[desirelessness] is fully exhibited in the spiritual world. (Bhag. 2.3.10, purport).

 

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha... are pure devotees. They consider glorification of the Lord more important than their own sense gratification. In the Vaikuntha planets there is no question of sense gratification... The inhabitants of Vaikuntha give first preference to the service of the Lord, not their own sense gratification. Serving the Lord in transcendental love yields such transcendental pleasure that, in comparison, sense gratification is counted as insignificant. (Bhag. 3.15.17, purp.)

 

In the spiritual world one has no desire other than to please the senses of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Cc. Madhya 19.155, purp.)

 

Everyone tried to satisfy Krsna–even the cows, the flowers, the fruits, and the water of Vrndavana. This is because everything in Vrndavana is spiritual; nothing is material. (Teachings of Queen Kunti, Chapter 25, Unalloyed Devotion)

 

The Vrndavana-lila of Krsna is the perfect presentation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's simply enjoying. And all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis, the cowherd boys, Maharaja Nanda, Yasoda, everyone is simply anxious how to make Krsna happy. They have no other business. The inhabitants of Vrndavana has no other business than to satisfy Krsna, and Krsna has no other business.

Yasoda-nandana brajajana-rajana.

He's acting as the little son of Yasoda, and His only business is how to please the inhabitants of Vrndavana. [710217CC.GOR]

Rupa Goswami has given us the definition of pure devotional service as being anyabhilasita-sunyam, or without desires other than service to please Krsna. Jiva Goswami comments that the word used here is anyabhilasita which means "the habit of acting under extraneous desires which are semi-natural with the person involved." So uttama-bhakti means not only "absence of extraneous desires," but also the complete absence of the very nature from which such extraneous desires arise. Bhaktivinode Thakura corroborates this in his booklet "Bhakti-tattva-viveka " in his analysis of bhakti-abasa. Therein he states that in the [nitya-mukta ] liberated state "the jiva remains free from any material designation and hence within him there is no opportunity for the marginal characteristics of bhakti to exist."

Additionally, Visvanatha Cakravartipada in his Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu has defined the svarupa-laksana (intrinsic characteristic) of uttama-bhakti [as possessed by the residents of the spiritual world] as involving activities favorable to Sri Krsna [anukulyena krsnanusilanam ] and the tatastha-laksana (extrinsic characteristic) of uttama-bhakti is described in the first line of the same verse, anyabhilasita-sunyam: uttama bhakti is devoid of all desires other than to please Sri Krsna.

References to Pure devotion

 

Pure devotee means he has no other desire, no material desire.

Anyabhilasita-sunyam,

zero. 740325BG.BOM

 

Pure devotee of Krsna. They have no other desire.

Anyabhilasita-sunyam.

They have no other desire. 740926SB.CAL

 

What is that pure devotee?

Anyabhilasita-sunyam...

This is pure devotion: no other desire... 741019SB.MAY

 

Anyabhilasita-sunyam. Anya.

Anya

means other than Krsna's service. They have made all, everything zero. We don't want all these things. We simply want to serve Krsna. 720524SB.LA

 

What is that pure devotional service?

anyabhilasita-sunyam

... No other desire than to please Krsna.710727SB.NY

 

Who is a pure devotee?

anyabhilasita-sunyam

... Pure devotion is

anukulyena krsnanu-silanam:

simply take to such work and activities which will favorably dispose Krsna. 710410LE.BOM

 

Anya-bhilasa. Anya

means "other than Krsna."

Anyabhilasita-sunyam,

being completely freed from any other desires 740111mw.la

6f- The residents of the spiritual world are all suddha-sattva/cinmaya-rasa

 

Which is directly under the protection of My spiritual energy of unadulterated bliss. That is the ultimate perfectional goal of the living entity. (Bhag. 3.27.28-29, text)

 

The Lord's abode, name, fame, entourage, etc., are of the same transcendental quality, and how this transcendental quality differs from the material world is explained herewith in this verse. (Bhag. 2.2.17, purp.)

 

Nitya-mukta

means they never come in this material world... They are in the spiritual form,

ananda-cinmaya-rasa,

enjoying always spiritual bliss in the association of Krsna. (Bhag. June 19, 1972, Los Angeles)

 

In

Bhagavat-sandarbha

text 75-78, Sri Jiva describes that the Lord's associates have transcendental bodies, possess qualities identical to those of the Lord, they are beyond the influence of time, are all

suddha-sattva

in nature, eternal, immutable... etc

 

The Lord and His devotees reside in the Vaikuntha planets, and they are of the same transcendental quality, namely,

suddha-sattva,

the mode of pure goodness. (Bhag. 3.15.15, purp.)

 

In the spiritual sky...

suddha-sattva,

which is a pure spiritual energy that sustains all the Vaikuntha planets with the full opulences of knowledge, wealth, prowess, etc. (Cc. Adi-lila 5.41)

 

Everything in the Goloka Vrndavana planet is a spiritual expansion of

sac-cid-ananda.

Everyone there is of the same potency–

ananda-cinmaya-rasa.

The relationship between the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His servitor is

cinmaya-rasa.

Krsna and His entourage and paraphernalia are of the same

cinmaya

potency. (Cc. Madhya-lila 19.154, purp.)

References describing Suddha-sattva

 

... description of the spiritual world...

Suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva

means simply goodness, pure goodness, without any tinge of passion and ignorance... And in pure goodness we can understand our constitutional position: we can understand what is God, what is creation, everything. (661217CC.NY)

 

Spiritual happiness is

suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva

means pure goodness. In the material world there are three stages: ignorance, passion and goodness. The goodness platform is very nice in the material world, but there is another platform, which is called

suddha-sattva. Sattvam visuddham, visuddham vasudeva-sabditam.

That is transcendental platform, and in that platform you can understand God. (690618SB.NV)

 

The total exhibition of these potencies [

sandhini, samvit and hladini

] is called

visuddha-sattva.

(Cc. Adi 4.62)

A careful analysis of the qualities of the residents of the spiritual world clearly indicates that they could never desire (or choose) to leave there. Further, we find innumerable references in sastra that Krsna is very favorably disposed to his pure devotees in the spiritual world, carefully protects them, is completely controlled by them and thus would certainly not desire nor make the arrangement that they could so easily fall from his perfect abode:

Devotees are Most Dear to the Lord

 

He comes under the control of His devotees. (Bhag. 10.9.19, text)

 

…certainly conquer Your Lordship. (Bhag. 10.14.3, text)

 

I am completely under the control of My devotees. (Bhag. 9.4.63, text)

 

The pure devotees . . . bring Me under their full control. (Bhag. 9.4.66, text)

 

The pure devotee is always within the core of My heart. (Bhag. 9.4.68, text)

 

How can I give up such devotees at any time? (Bhag. 9.4.65, text)

Additional similar references are given on our web site at the following URL:

 

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_3.html

 

 

7- All examples of apparent falldowns of nitya-parsadas from the eternal lila of the Lord cited by proponents of the "fall theory" are not actual falldowns. Tulasi is not an ordinary living entity. It is mentioned many times in sastra and in Srila Prabhupada's purports (pertinent quotes included within this presentation) that the descent of the Lord's nitya-parsadas is for the purpose of His lila and is not in the same category as the appearance of the nitya-baddha living entities. Nor is the descent of Tulasi an example of a resident of the spiritual world becoming envious of Krsna. It is a pastime under the influence of yogamaya not maha-maya.

The example of Kala Krsnadasa is inappropriate since he was already in the material world. He is not mentioned in Gaura-Gannodesa-dipika as being Krsna parsada. Furthermore, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not allow him to fall away but protected him and kept him with Him for a year. Kala Krsnadasa was then given the shelter of Nityananda Prabhu and the nectarean service of informing Mother Saci and the residents of Navadvipa of the Lords South Indian tour in great detail.

Other so-called examples of falldown from spiritual positions, that have been cited, are in each case a special arrangement by the Lord—spiritually situated devotees were simply taking part in the Lord's transcendental lila. Citraketu did not fall into material life. It is clear from his prayers to the Lord (as Vrtrasura) that he was still very much an exalted devotee, that his bhakti was not covered, and commentators have explained that this [apparent falldown] was a special favor of the Lord for it increased his attachment to the Lord. Srila Prabhupada explains very clearly that Jaya and Vijaya's fall was a special arrangement of the Lord for His lila (Bhag. 3.16.26-27, purp.). Jiva Gosvami writes in Priti-sandarbha, 7, that when Jaya and Vijaya became demons, within they knew themselves and kept their spiritual form.

The fall of Bharata Maharaja was also special as he was protected by the Lord. Even in the body of a deer and later as an apparently incoherent Jada Bharat he remembered his past experiences and Krsna consciousness and perfected himself in the next life.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in this regard, writes in his commentary on Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.2.33,

 

Even if they fall, they become more attached to You, just as when King Citraketu, Bharata Maharaja and King Indradyumna had a so-called fall down. In their fallen forms, such as Vrtrasura [previously King Citraketu], their love multiplied hundreds of times. Therefore, the fall of a devotee causes his love to increase.

In Srimad-Bhagavatam, text 10.2.33, it is stated that devotees do not fall like non-devotees for the Lord protects them. In the purport Srila Prabhupada writes,

 

In history there are many instances of devotees like Citraketu, Indradyumna and Maharaja Bharata who circumstantially fell down but were still protected. Maharaja Bharata, for example, because of his attachment to a deer, thought of the deer at the time of death, and therefore in his next life he became a deer (

yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram

). Because of protection by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, however, the deer remembered his relationship with the Lord and next took birth in a good brahminical family and performed devotional service (

sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate

). Similarly, Citraketu fell down and became a demon, Vrtrasura, but he too was protected.

8- The theory that one can become illusioned and fall introduces imperfection in the [infallible] spiritual world—this is Mayavada philosophy. It derides the concept of the Lord's perfect abode. It is stated explicitly that the spiritual world is a manifestation of the Lord's internal pleasure potency, svarupa-sakti, the Lord's most powerful potency. [cf section 6f]

Srila Prabhupada states, "It is a most ludicrous argument to say that the Supreme Lord is overpowered by His own material energy." (Bhag. 3.7.9, purp.) This is the conception of the impersonalists who think that a portion of the Lord's svarupa sakti, the Lord's most powerful sakti, can be covered by maya—that maya can cover brahman. Actually, the fall theory is worse than Mayavada for it suggests that not only brahman but Parabrahman may be covered by maya.

It is stated in Bhag. 2.5.13 that maya never appears in front of the Lord, therefore it is apparent that those who are situated on the front side of the Lord, the pure devotees, are never effected by maya. Are we to suggest that the Lord's internal potency is fallible and imperfect? Many references attest to the invincibility of the Lord's internal potency. That the superior energy of the Lord (svarupa-sakti ) can be overwhelmed by the inferior energy of the Lord (maya-sakti ) is not supported anywhere by sastra or by any acaryas. Yet, even disregarding the direct statement of the Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.10, that maya cannot enter the spiritual world, this theory [that all jivas in the material world come by falldown from the spiritual world] requires that the eternal associates of Krsna be influenced by maya while in the spiritual world, in order for them to become illusioned. For "the living entity cannot be forgetful of his real identity unless influenced by the avidya potency." (Bhag. 3.7.5, purp.) Certainly it is considered an imperfection of the spiritual world that one firmly situated under the personal protection of the divine internal potency of the Lord and ecstatically engaged in the Lord's loving transcendental service in "the highest perfectional stage of living conditions," (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport), can fall from that to repeated hellish and degraded lives of birth and death.

Are we to accept that uncountable formerly self-realized living entities, billions is just an acre of countryside, all became envious and fell from the bliss of the Lord's personal association? Perhaps Vaikuntha should then be named Sakuntha, the abode of anxiety.

<DIR>

 

evam vadanti rajarsersayah ke ca nanvitahyat sva-vaco

virudhyetanunam te na smaranty uta

 

 

Such is the account given by some sages, O wise King, but those who speak in this illogical way are contradicting themselves, having forgotten their own previous statements. (Bhag. 10.77.30, text)

</DIR>Conclusion:

It is our contention that the actual sastric truth regarding the jiva's original positon as presented herein and which is thoroughly supported by all our acaryas, has eluded many devotees due to their offenses to highly situated Vaisnavas. A chronology of events surrounding the siksa of Srila B. R. Sridhara Maharaja and the many offenses committed against His Holiness has been documented in the book Our Affectionate Guardians, available online at:

 

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/affection_unabridged/index.html

 

 

A sastric reference to the anartha called tattva-vibrahma is given by Bhaktivinode Thakura in his Bhajana-rahasya, wherein it is stated that one remains in illusion about different tattva's, such as jiva-tattva, guru-tattva, vaisnava-tattva, and rasa-tattva due to one's offenses etc. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his Madhurya Kadambini quotes a verse from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu regarding the offenses which lead to a material conception of spiritual topics. The effect of one's offenses is that one developes the same qualities which they criticize of another. We feel strongly that the misunderstanding of this subject belies a fundamental lack of comprehension of the essential substance of Krsna consciousness.

A lengthier presentation with many additional references is available on our Web Site:

 

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva.html

 

 

The only subject not covered in this paper, which is however available in our longer Web presentation, is the topic of "Preaching is not always siddhanta:"

 

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_8.html

 

 

We suggest than an example of preaching something other than siddhanta (cf. Bg. 15.6: "Once going there, one never returns.") is shown in the following conversation, which directly contradicts Bg. 15.6:

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." (Conversation, Los Angeles, May 13, 1973)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[sumedh 0]

 

If we first petition the Lord in the heart to please reveal the truth to us and in that spirit approach the scriptures I believe the result will be fruitfull.

 

I believe this would be one of the requirements to approach all the scriptures.

 

 

Sanskrit rules have long been in place I believe and yet some those using those rules hear the Bhagavad-gita as an Advaita scripture and the others hear it as a Vaisnava scripture. So I see a limitation in placing my faith in my intellectual understanding of sanskrit and applying those rules properly.

 

Almost all of the advaita interpretations have been shown to be flawed. The starting point of Advaita interpretations of mahavakya and non-mahavakya categorization itself is unacceptable and something for which they have not been able to provide any evidence. There is still a long list of pending objections to Advaita which have not been addressed as yet (apart from "explanations" like "Maya is inexplicable" ...) so let us not get into that. Still one can object saying that there are different interpretations even among Vaishnava acharyas, but we follow Lord Chaitanya and consider them as valid explanations.

 

 

This has nothing to do with being able to hear the Supersoul directly. It has everything to do with the Supersoul hearing us and kindly responding.

 

This should be the manner in which we approach things. But it would not be useful in a discussion. For instance, a claim can be made that i have been lead to this conclusion by Paramatma. Such statements, however, are to be discounted in any vedantic discussion.

 

 

You have not addressed my point about the origin of the soul in relationship to living in the eternal present where past and future have no meaning. Afterall the soul is of that eternal nature.

 

I have tried to. Rephrasing: when one talks about the eternal present of the spiritual world then it should not be confused with the eternal past, future of material world. So a jiva entering the eternal present of spiritual world is perfectly compatible with the notion that jiva was bound since anAdi in material world and is now in moksha for endless time in material world.

 

 

The reason this is important is that everyone is trying to understand this subject in a way that is dependent upon sequential events i.e.In brahman then falling then becoming Krsna conscious and then going back to Godhead.

 

Falling from brahmajyoti would not be the correct way to describe it. It would be accepted that the jivas are part of brahmajyoti, but the traditional way to describe it would be that jiva and matter are anadi and their association is also anAdi. I believe Srila Sridhar Maharaj, however, describes it the way you have put it.

 

 

Don't discount approaching Supersoul. There is no success without Him.

 

I never said so.

[theist 1]

 

 

[/uote]This should be the manner in which we approach things. But it would not be useful in a discussion. For instance, a claim can be made that i have been lead to this conclusion by Paramatma. Such statements, however, are to be discounted in any vedantic discussion.

 

Yes I understand,people say so many things, and such could never be enough to prove one's point in a discussion, but it is indespensible in one's own personal realization. And that is why I don't believe any amount of discussion on this topic can be fruitfull. For me it is all about personal realization and we have so many Krsna conscious topics that are more accessible and vital to us. We need not spend too much time on something this arcane. Although it is interesting of course, just that we should not expect any conclusion to come this way.

 

 

 

I have tried to. Rephrasing: when one talks about the eternal present of the spiritual world then it should not be confused with the eternal past, future of material world. So a jiva entering the eternal present of spiritual world is perfectly compatible with the notion that jiva was bound since anAdi in material world and is now in moksha for endless time in material world.

 

See this is what I was trying to say about sequential thought. That is a product of being influenced by past present future and has no meaning to a resident of eternity. You are saying that a jiva has fallen into the material world for some time which implies that for some time he is no longer present in the spiritual world as in bramanjyoti or Vaikuntha.

 

From the liberated platform however the soul understands that he never left. What we call a fall is actually forgetfullness of our real position. We dream our entrance into the material world which itself is just an amalgamate dream of countless souls. If I am sleeping in a bed and I dream I am walking on venus with lovely venitian woman does that mean that I am really on Venus? No I am still in the bed.

 

The fall itself is an illusion and falling means believing it is true. LOL The biggest of supra cosmic jokes and the joke is on us as long as we believe it.

 

 

 

Falling from brahmajyoti would not be the correct way to describe it. It would be accepted that the jivas are part of brahmajyoti, but the traditional way to describe it would be that jiva and matter are anadi and their association is also anAdi. I believe Srila Sridhar Maharaj, however, describes it the way you have put it.

So the question then is really did we fall into this dream from the brahmajyoti or Vaikuntha. I don't take a position here because as discussed our discussion is inadequate.

 

But here is a scenario for thought. I don't say I believe it it is for thought only.

 

The soul is in Vaikuntha in form and then from within himself he desires Krsna's position. His spiritual form is nondifferent from his mood of service. One desiring serving as a cowherd boy is formed as a cowherd boy. When he desires krsna's position he loses that form of a cowherd boy.But he doesn't desire anything material because he has no conception of anything material. So he is now formless, in other words simply brahmajyoti and in suspended animation. That simply means his animation as cowherd boy has been suspended. At some point he again from within himself feels the desire to be an individual, just the raw desire to be an individual. No material or spiritual desires yet. This would be what many call the the soul emerging in the tatasva region. From there his marginality is exposed and he can choose to be the enjoyer or be the servant of the Enjoyer. I believe BR Sridhar Maharaja says he gets a glimpse of both dimensions. If he chooses to serve then he moves into vaikuntha and if chooses to be served his attention goes to the variety of material enjoyments offered in the material world. This is an excercise of the soul's marginal nature.

 

Now from this scenario we can see that the soul originally was in Vaikuntha and fell to the bramajyoti and then some again fell further into material entanglment.

 

From our present perspective then it would be correct to say the soul fell from vaikuntha and the soul originated in the brahmajyoti prior to popping (bloop :-) ) into the material dream. So both positions are correct IF this is true.

 

Of course by speaking this I have also had to employ the fault of sequential thinking because that is how we communicate and all I presently know.

 

mYSELF i HAVE NO POSITION IN THIS DEBATE. AGAIN, I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS WAY IT IS I AM ONLY OFFERING ANOTHER ANGLE THAN WHAT HAS PRESENTLY BEEN DISCUSSED TO SHOW THAT ALL IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE FROM OUR POSITION OF LIMITED KNOWLEDGE.

 

That's all from me on this one suhmed prabhu. I have been discussing the discussion itself and not the pros or cons of either side and that may be an interruption so I'll close.

 

Hare Krsna

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

...The soul is in Vaikuntha in form and then from within himself he desires Krsna's position. His spiritual form is nondifferent from his mood of service. One desiring serving as a cowherd boy is formed as a cowherd boy. When he desires krsna's position he loses that form of a cowherd boy.But he doesn't desire anything material because he has no conception of anything material. So he is now formless, in other words simply brahmajyoti and in suspended animation. That simply means his animation as cowherd boy has been suspended. At some point he again from within himself feels the desire to be an individual, just the raw desire to be an individual. No material or spiritual desires yet. This would be what many call the the soul emerging in the tatasva region. From there his marginality is exposed and he can choose to be the enjoyer or be the servant of the Enjoyer. I believe BR Sridhar Maharaja says he gets a glimpse of both dimensions. If he chooses to serve then he moves into vaikuntha and if chooses to be served his attention goes to the variety of material enjoyments offered in the material world. This is an excercise of the soul's marginal nature.

Now from this scenario we can see that the soul originally was in Vaikuntha and fell to the bramajyoti and then some again fell further into material entanglment.

From our present perspective then it would be correct to say the soul fell from vaikuntha and the soul originated in the brahmajyoti prior to popping (bloop :-) ) into the material dream. So both positions are correct IF this is true.

Of course by speaking this I have also had to employ the fault of sequential thinking because that is how we communicate and all I presently know.

mYSELF i HAVE NO POSITION IN THIS DEBATE. AGAIN, I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS WAY IT IS I AM ONLY OFFERING ANOTHER ANGLE THAN WHAT HAS PRESENTLY BEEN DISCUSSED TO SHOW THAT ALL IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE FROM OUR POSITION OF LIMITED KNOWLEDGE.

That's all from me on this one suhmed prabhu. I have been discussing the discussion itself and not the pros or cons of either side and that may be an interruption so I'll close.

Hare Krsna

...The soul is in Vaikuntha in form and then from within himself he desires Krsna's position. His spiritual form is nondifferent from his mood of service. One desiring serving as a cowherd boy is formed as a cowherd boy. When he desires krsna's position he loses that form of a cowherd boy.But he doesn't desire anything material because he has no conception of anything material. So he is now formless, in other words simply brahmajyoti and in suspended animation. That simply means his animation as cowherd boy has been suspended. At some point he again from within himself feels the desire to be an individual, just the raw desire to be an individual. No material or spiritual desires yet. This would be what many call the the soul emerging in the tatasva region. From there his marginality is exposed and he can choose to be the enjoyer or be the servant of the Enjoyer.

What a horrible thought even if it is theoretical. It's "horrible" because its non-devotional. The "soul" in this theory is not just a "soul". If you are referring to a cowherd boy or a cowherd girl, those are eternal associates of the Lord.

"The abode of Lord Sri Krsna is described in the Bhagavad-gita, Fifteenth Chapter, sixth verse:

 

 

na tad bhasayate suryo

na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

 

"That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity and anyone who reaches it never comes back to this material world."

This would mean that the jivas in this world that were recently, relative to material time, worms in stool have the potential to go back to Godhead and then attain the position of one “who reaches it never come back to this material world”. But in your scenario the eternal associate, ragatmika devotees can fall down and potentially become worms in the stool. So by deduction our process becomes that instead of developing laulyam or greed to become a ragatmika ourselves by becoming a raganuga bhakta (anuga means to follow) we assume that the nitya siddha, eternal associates of the Lord are of the same nature as conditioned jiva souls. This would be a major error and in fact an aparadha of vile proportions. Much of the confusion comes from the conception that “a soul is a soul”. Perhaps you have noticed that some outside our sampradaya have accussed Srila Prabhupada of an apasiddhanta. That being that all souls are of the quality sat-cit–ananda. This is cleared up by Srila Sridhar Maharaja who states that, “everything should be known by its potential”. So in the light of what Srila Sridhar Maharaja has said then the jiva soul is actually only potentially sat-cit –ananda. And the reason is not only that we are identifying with this material body but that the bodily identification is blocking our progress in bhakti. Within that potential progress there are stages and transformations.

 

 

suddha-sattva-visesatma

prema-suryamsu-samya-bhak

rucibhis citta-masrnya-

krd asau bhava ucyate

 

["When devotional service is executed on the transcendental platform of pure goodness, it is like a sun-ray of love for Krsna. At such a time, devotional service causes the heart to be softened by various tastes, and one is then situated in bhava (emotion)." (Madhya lila 23.5)]

Srila Narayana Maharaja: What is this bhava? We should know. If you don't know what is bhava, what is rati, then how can your objective be to attain it? If you do not know this, how can you do sadhana? If, not knowing this you are doing 'sadhana', it will not be sadhana. It may be sadhana-abhasa, or even less than that. It is not actually bhakti. We are all in this category.What is rati? What is the meaning of suddha-sattva-visesatma? What is sattva? What is suddha-sattva? What is visuddha-sattva? What is suddha-sattva-visesatma? There are four truths to know.

What is sattva?

…We must know what is sattva, and then we must know what is suddha-sattva. Sattva means existence. This body is material sattva. It has no actual existence. All kinds of existence in this world and that transcendental world are sattva. Sattva is of two kinds: Suddha-sattva and misra-sattva. All the souls who are captured in the material energy are now misra-sattva. One who gives up the material sattva and considers himself an infinitesimal part of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is suddha-anucit. Transcendental substance is called suddha-sattva.

Next, what is suddha-sattva-visesatma? What is this type of suddha-sattva? Baladeva Prabhu is the origin of all suddha-sattva, transcendental existence, and everything that exists in this world also comes from Him. He is the presiding Deity of sandini-sakti, Krsna's potency of existence. Everything that comes directly from this sandini-sakti in the form of Baladeva is suddha-sattva. Do you understand?

Perhaps after two days you will forget this, and therefore you should try to note it down in your heart. Suddha-sattva-visesatma. Hladini-sakti and samvit-sakti belong to the category of the svarupa-sakti of Krsna. Krsna's svarupa-sakti is hladini and samvit. Hladini-sakti is love and affection, with ananda. Samvit means knowledge. From that knowledge all the various kinds of bhava to serve Krsna which are in Radhika may partly come in the jiva. The essence of hladini and samvit, on the platform of sandini, is suddha-sattva visesatma.

How will it come? It will not come by any sadhana that can be performed by a jiva. It will come by krpa-siddha. What is krpa-siddha? It is perfection by mercy. Mercy is of two kinds. The first is Krsna's mercy, and that includes the mercy of Srimati Radhika, Vrnda, and all tadiya, associates. Secondly, mercy comes from high-class devotees of Krsna, like Sankara, Narada Gosvami, Uddhava, and even more advanced than that, Rupa Gosvami, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, our Gurudeva, our Srila Swami Maharaja, and others in this line.

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[theist 1]

 

What a horrible thought even if it is theoretical. It's "horrible" because its non-devotional. The "soul" in this theory is not just a "soul". If you are referring to a cowherd boy or a cowherd girl, those are eternal associates of the Lord.

Yes but you have only taken one scene of the scenario I think prabhu. Considering the time equation the cowherd boy never fell. The fall is an illusion. Perhaps Krsna's arrangement is soooo perfect that one can "fall" and be reinstated without loss.

Now your objection on the grounds that it is undevotional therefore it is horrible is true no doubt. But you seem to imply that the soul in Krsna conciousness is no longer marginal in nature and cannot choose to forget Krsna and dream himself as the enjoyer. My feeling is that choice must always remain as the excercise of free will and is the basis of love. So to choose to fall is certainly horrible but so is the idea of having no choice at all.

I think the idea of devotional love being so strong that one would never leave is a powerful point. But it must be accepted that the free will to do so remains.

Another thing I have questions about is the idea of souls sleeping in the brahmajyoti then falling to the material plane and then going back to vaikuntha where they have never been before. We would have a scene in Goloka where new souls are popping in all the time and seen as new additions to the rasa. That just seems like a material idea to me much like birth is in this world.

Anyway just playing with thoughts here and not promoting anything. All is open to critique which is the whole idea.

I feel myself being drawn in even as I told suhmed that I was not going to and was bowing out. :-) Oh well, it is my nature to do contradictory things. It is interesting even if no conclusions are reached.

Thoughts?

[sumedh 0]

 

See this is what I was trying to say about sequential thought. That is a product of being influenced by past present future and has no meaning to a resident of eternity. You are saying that a jiva has fallen into the material world for some time which implies that for some time he is no longer present in the spiritual world as in bramanjyoti or Vaikuntha.

 

No, i am saying that thinking of simultaneous events in spiritual and material worlds as in falling from brahmajyoti/vaikuntha and then entering material world is not correct, or leaving the material world and then entering the spiritual world. When the description is provided with respect to the material world then the terms anAdi and anant are used, and with respect to the spiritual world the soul enters the eternal time.

 

 

From the liberated platform however the soul understands that he never left. What we call a fall is actually forgetfullness of our real position. We dream our entrance into the material world which itself is just an amalgamate dream of countless souls. If I am sleeping in a bed and I dream I am walking on venus with lovely venitian woman does that mean that I am really on Venus? No I am still in the bed.

 

The material world is unlike the dream. The jiva does not simultaneously exist in both spiritual and material worlds, unlike in a dream experience.

 

 

The soul is in Vaikuntha in form and then from within himself he desires Krsna's position. His spiritual form is nondifferent from his mood of service. One desiring serving as a cowherd boy is formed as a cowherd boy. When he desires krsna's position he loses that form of a cowherd boy.But he doesn't desire anything material because he has no conception of anything material. So he is now formless, in other words simply brahmajyoti and in suspended animation. That simply means his animation as cowherd boy has been suspended. At some point he again from within himself feels the desire to be an individual, just the raw desire to be an individual. No material or spiritual desires yet. This would be what many call the the soul emerging in the tatasva region. From there his marginality is exposed and he can choose to be the enjoyer or be the servant of the Enjoyer. I believe BR Sridhar Maharaja says he gets a glimpse of both dimensions. If he chooses to serve then he moves into vaikuntha and if chooses to be served his attention goes to the variety of material enjoyments offered in the material world. This is an excercise of the soul's marginal nature.

 

Now from this scenario we can see that the soul originally was in Vaikuntha and fell to the bramajyoti and then some again fell further into material entanglment.

 

From our present perspective then it would be correct to say the soul fell from vaikuntha and the soul originated in the brahmajyoti prior to popping (bloop :-) ) into the material dream. So both positions are correct IF this is true.

 

Of course by speaking this I have also had to employ the fault of sequential thinking because that is how we communicate and all I presently know.

 

This could have been an acceptable alternative (though there are some problems with this) if there is an evidence for this. The shastra unequivocally says that jiva is never subject to material world on attainment of vaikuntha.