Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

March 20, 2007

Once when I was with Siddhaswarupananda someone asked him, "When people fall down from Vaikuntha do they stop serving Krishna immediately, or do they gradually do less and less service and become more engrossed in Maya".

Siddha replied, "They fall down gradually. Most of the people in ISKCON are on their way down".

March 20, 2007

In the Goloka-Vrndavana Planet, Krishna and Balarama kill’s demons – how is this possible in the Spiritual realm outside of the mahat-tattva cloud? Well, as

Should read - 'In Goloka-Vrndavana Planet, Krishna and Balarama kill’s demons

how is this possible in the Spiritual realm INSIDE of the mahat-tattva cloud? a typing mistake -

The idea that when Krishna is on this planet in Vrndavana or Dvarka or Mathura He is in the material world and when he is in Goloka-Vrndavana He is in the spiritual world is not correct. Vrndavana on this planet is not in the material world. It is Krishna's eternal abode which has descended onto this plant. It is also quite difficult for us to understand the nature of Vrndanvan and Srila Prabhupada said you cannot visit Vrndavana simply by purchasing an airline ticket. Many go to the place Vrndavana but do not actually see Vrndavana at all. It requires purified eyes to see. As people mistake Krishna's body, the body of the Deity in the temple or the body or a pure devotee to be material, they think that Vrndavana in this world is material and somehow different to the Vrndavana in the spiritual world. It is not true. It is the same Vrndavana.

Adi 5.18 The Glories of Lord Nityananda Balarama

From the authoritative evidence cited by Jiva Gosvami we may conclude that Krsnaloka is the supreme planet in the spiritual sky, which is far beyond the material cosmos. For the enjoyment of transcendental variety, the pastimes of Krsna there have three divisions, and these pastimes are performed in the three abodes Dvaraka, Mathura and Gokula. When Krsna descends to this universe, He enjoys the pastimes in places of the same name. These places on earth are nondifferent from those original abodes, for they are facsimiles of those original holy places in the transcendental world. They are as good as Sri Krsna Himself and are equally worshipable. Lord Caitanya declared that Lord Krsna, who presents Himself as the son of the King of Vraja, is worshipable, and Vrndavana-dhama is equally worshipable.

There is one slight difference. In the spiritual world there are no demons, so when Krishna wants to fight he comes to the material world to exhibit His fighting spirit here...

Madhya 20.397 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science

There are two types of devotees--the sadhaka, who is preparing for perfection, and the siddha, who is already perfect. As far as those who are already perfect are concerned, Bhagavad-gita says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so 'rjuna: "After giving up this material body, such a devotee comes to Me." After leaving the material body, the perfect devotee takes birth in the womb of a gopi on a planet where Krsna's pastimes are going on. This may be in this universe or another universe. This statement is found in the Ujjvala-nilamani, which is commented upon by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. When a devotee becomes perfect, he is transferred to the universe where Krsna's pastimes are taking place. Krsna's eternal associates go wherever Krsna manifests His pastimes. As stated before, first the father and mother of Krsna appear, then the other associates. Quitting his material body, the perfect devotee also goes to associate with Krsna and His other associates.

So Srila Prabhupada here says the perfect devotee takes birth in the womb of a gopi on the planet where Krishna is manifesting His pastimes. He goes on to say, "Quiting his material body, the perfect devotee also goes to associate with Krishna and His other associates." So when he takes birth on the planet where Krishna is having his pastimes from the womb of one of the gopis the perfect devotee does not have a material body.

KB 28 Releasing Nanda Maharaja from the Clutches of Varuna

Those who successfully practice bhakti-yoga, after giving up this present body, go directly to the spiritual world and become situated in one of the Vaikuntha planets intheir original Spirtual body. The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikunthalokas. The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continually going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across this earthly planet, so Krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the Vrndavana lila of Krsna within this planet.

The gopis don't have material bodies. They may complain about Lord Brahma creating eyes that blink, but they are using their eyes to look at Krishna, so they are not at all material eyes...

My realization of exactly how the things work in the spiritual world is not so perfect. I can only repeat what I have heard from Srila Prabhupada and if we are fortunate enough to go there we will certainly understand the spiritual world much better then. The spiritual world is completely different from the material world, we have no experiences here to compare to the spiritual world. So it is difficult for us to conceive or even imagine what it is like. We know the time factor does not act there, there is no past and future, everything is eternally present... So how can we understand that? We have no experience of such a thing, we cannot even imagine it. But we accept it as being perfect knowledge of the spiritual world because we have heard it from Srila Prabhupada. We may not completely realize what it means, but we have heard it from Prabhupada, so that is perfect knowledge. We also know that there is no birth or death there, there is no old age or disease, there is no anxiety. We know there are desire trees there that will supply the devotees with anything they want, we know there are subari cows that will give one as much milk as he desires at any time. There are so many things we know about the spiritual world from the Brahma-samhita and other books also. And ultimately, if we strictly follow the process of Krishna consciousness by chanting at least 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna mantra daily and following the four regulative principles [no illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling and no intoxication] and if we read Srila Prabhupada's books constantly and engage in serving Krishna under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master 24 hours a day perhaps Krishna will reveal to us the nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana planet.

We cannot understand these things by our own strength. They are beyond the ability of our senses to experience and beyond the power of our mind to conceive. So the only way we will be able to understand these things is if Krishna reveals the knowledge to us.

Madhya 20.397 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura elucidates this complicated explanation of Krsna's pastimes. Krsna's pastimes are always present in the material world in one of the many universes. These pastimes appear in the universes one after the other, just as the sun moves across the sky and measures the time. Krsna's appearance may be manifest in this universe at one moment, and immediately after His birth, this pastime is manifest in the next universe. After His killing of Putana is manifest in this universe, it is next manifest in another universe. Thus all the pastimes of Krsna are eternally existing both in the original Goloka-Vrndavana planet and in the material universes.

T

March 20, 2007

Once when I was with Siddhaswarupananda someone asked him, "When people fall down from Vaikuntha do they stop serving Krishna immediately, or do they gradually do less and less service and become more engrossed in Maya".

Siddha replied, "They fall down gradually. Most of the people in ISKCON are on their way down".

I don't think Siddhaswarupa is an authority on ISKCON or Spiritual Life, I also new him back in the early 70s. Its just a nonsensical statement. It maybe his case, but in ISKCON there are genuinely advanced devotee's of Srila Prabhupada preaching his mission

March 20, 2007

Please speak to the fact that there is no time (as in past and future) in the Spiritual Sky and it's relevency to the point proposed.

Theist your idea that there is no past and future in the "Spiritual Sky" is wrong.

While we are engaging in material life the Lord in Vaikuntha is watching us. Time is passing by in this world, and in that world too.

===================

Sanatana Goswami- Brhadbhagavatamrtam 2.4

62-3 Passing through many very wonderful and colourful gates, I came to a very glorious palace, its feet served by many other palaces. This one palace was most excellent. It was flooded with glory. It was more splendid than millions of suns and moons. It charmed the eyes and the heart.

64-5 Inside I saw, far away, on a regal golden throne glistening with many jewels, happily sitting on a splendid white swan-cushion, handsome as a splendid moon, and His left elbow resting on a soft cushion, the supremely opulent and eternally youthful Lord of Vaikuntha...

66 ...who with His sweetly handsome limbs' glory, which eclipsed the glory of new clouds, decorated His ornaments of jewels and gold, His garments and His scented ointments...

67 ...whose splendid and broad four arms were decorated with bracelets and armlets, who wore two yellow silk garments, the circle of whose cheeks had beautiful earrings...

68 ...whose broad chest was decorated with the Kaustubha jewel, whose conchshell neck held a strand of pearls, the moon of whose face held the nectar of a charming smile, the lotus of whose eyes glittered with wonderful glances...

69 ...whose eyebrows danced with great mercy, to whom the goddess of fortune, appropriately staying at His left side, respectfully offered prayers, who took and chewed sublime betelnuts...

70 ...whose glorious laughter was illumined by a row of white jasmine-flower teeth breaking through the glory of the red bimba fruits of His lips, the waves of whose joking words charmed His devotees' hearts...

71 ...whom Goddess Dharani, holding a leaf in her hand, and splashing Him with waves of sidelong glances, worshipped again and again, whom the Sudarsana-cakra and other handsome weapons, bearing auspicious markings on their heads, served...

72 ...whom many servants glorious as the Lord and their hands splendid with camara wisks, fans, slippers and other beautiful paraphernalia, respectfully surrounded and served...

73 ...whom Sesa, Garuda, Visvaksena, and many other important associates, their folded palms placed on reverentially bowed heads, worshipped with wonderful words...

74 ...whom Sri Narada worshipped with graceful artistry of wonderful singing, dancing, and vina music, who joked and laughed with His beloved Laksmi and Dharani...

75 ...and who, to fill with bliss the devotees whose hearts were fixed on Him alone, placed on them His splendid and wonderful lotus feet.

76 Filled with bliss by seeing Him and forgetting the instructions of the Lord's associates, I called out "O Gopala! O my life!" Shedding tears, I ran to embrace Him.

77 Held by some wise associates and standing behind the Lord, I piteously begged with many plaintive words, and then, overcome with love, I fainted unconscious in the Lord's presence.

78 They quickly picked me up and I regained consciousness. Tears blocked my eyes. Carefully wiping the tears with my hands, I opened my eyes.

79 Then I heard the most merciful and affectionate Lord, in a deep soft voice, say some words beginning with: "Be calm. Come, child, at once."

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that some of the other words the Lord spoke were: "Give up this awe and reverence. Come and talk with Me."

80 Then I attained the ultimate happiness. Again and again I danced as a man possessed. the Lord's associates carefully made me calm down.

81 Then, the Lord said: Welcome! Welcome! Child, it is so fortunate, so fortunate, that you are here with Me. For so long I have longed to see you.

82 Dear friend, somehow you passed many births without coming to see Me.

83 Hoping that in this, in this, in this, in this birth you would turn to Me, I danced as a fool.

84 Brother, I could not find a pretext to bring you to My abode and still protect the ancient rules of religion.

85-6 Seeing that you had not attained My mercy, I became overcome with mercy for you. Ignoring the rules of karma, I gave you a birth on Govardhana Hill, My favourite place, and then, O dear friend, I became your guru, who was named Jayanta.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.7.42.

87 Today you have suddenly fulfilled my long-cherished desire. Please stay here always and make Me happy.

=================

I guess the Prabhupadanugas who only read Prabhupada's books will not be interested in what Srila Sanatana Goswami has to say in Brhadbhagavatamrtam. However I feel quite confident that if people search for a while they will find the same information elsewhere in Bhagavatam , CC, etc.

Simultaneous with the changes that happen in the material universe, changes happen in Goloka. But the changes in Goloka are all facets of the lila of Bhagavan, whereas change in the material universes is associated with decay and death

March 20, 2007

I don't think Siddhaswarupa is an authority on ISKCON or Spiritual Life, I also new him back in the early 70s. Its just a nonsensical statement. It maybe his case, but in ISKCON there are genuinely advanced devotee's of Srila Prabhupada preaching his mission

When he said this I couldn't accept what he said is true. I was frightened of him so I didn't dare to doubt what he said. But later I realized this whole notion of souls falling from Vaikuntha is contrary to the teachings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura who said that jiva souls arise from the jiva shakti situated in the tatastha position mid-way between the material and spiritual worlds.

March 20, 2007

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote in Sri Brahma Samhita. Text 21:

sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakrtis ca paraiva sa

TRANSLATION: The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

PURPORT: Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. <b>The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. </b>Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krishna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Geeta it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura taught that souls fall from Brahman.

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura said we originate from the effulgent rays of the transcendental Supreme Lord. He clearly this in his ENGLISH translation of the book Brahma Samhita.

March 20, 2007

Could Chandravali Decide to Leave Goloka?

BY: PUNDARIKAKSA DASI

Feb 22, USA (SUN) —Today I read the new article by Eric Johansen where he argues that souls in this world have fallen down from Vaikuntha and become caught in samsara. I previously sent the Sun some articles in regard to this topic but in my mind I decided not to persist in discussing this matter. However after studying Eric Johansen's article it seems sensible to express a few thoughts which I have had.

"OK", I will say. "OK, I was wrong and you are right". OK, now that I have adopted your point of view can you please address some serious concerns I have in regard to this.

Mahesh Raja presented the quote below by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

760805BG.PAR Lectures:

* Translator: "The question is: did we fall in this material world to find some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world to experience something which is higher?

Prabhupada: I do not follow.

Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why should we have left?

Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... JUST LIKE SOMEBODY IS DAILY EATING PURIS AND HALAVA, AND HE WANTS TO EAT PUFFED RICE. SO THAT TENDENCY IS THERE. THAT IS ALSO A SIDE OF ENJOYMENT. "I am eating daily this, let me eat this." What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So different taste we desire, that "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's all."

A number of questions arise in my mind after reading this. I hope and pray that the intelligent brahmana gentlemen following this discussion will be able to enlighten a less intelligent person such as I, and provide me with answers to the doubts in my mind.

In this quote above His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada says souls come here and get into Maya for the purpose of feeling enjoyment. Presumably, if and when I return to Goloka I will find that the happiness in Goloka I feel is the same as it was before I left. So my concern is this: is there any statement in the scriptures saying that devotees who have come back home after being in Maya are any happier or wiser because of their experience of Maya? Presumably, after going back to Godhead we will be of the same intelligence we had before. Then when another day comes where I feel a taste for a higher type of enjoyment than what I am getting in Goloka I may decide to come back to the material world again. Again and again I will come back here. Is it not so? If the personal quest for enjoyment is the driving force then surely my feeling of happiness in Goloka will fade once again. Is it not so?

The second question I have is a question I raised before which nobody has answered: why should anybody make an effort to go back to Godhead if eternal associates of Krishna feel this world is a more attractive place to be than Vaikuntha? If the devotees in Goloka feel a desire to come to the material world so they can experience greater enjoyment, why should I want to go to Goloka? Perhaps as a matter of duty and religious zeal we should serve Krishna. But in Goloka the souls serving Krishna as cowherd boys and girls do not feel a sense of duty towards Krishna but instead they live a life of fun in a world centered around Krishna. Souls such as those, it would seem, may sometimes desire to enjoy separately from Krishna. This is very perplexing.

My third question, an unanswered question I asked before in a previous article, is this. Buddha said the gods in heaven do not live there forever since all concrete realms are impermanent. If it is true that "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila" then it must also be true that the world of Krishna is an impermanent residence for souls, since people in Vaikuntha can (and do) fall into a state of illusion from time to time. This is the logical conclusion I arrive at. Can someone please explain to me how my thinking is wrong?

I have a fourth question, and a fifth. But before asking my fourth question I would like to present two verses from the Gita.

* In the Bhagavad gita (8.21) Krishna says:

avyakto 'ksara ity uktas tam ahuh paramam gatim

yam prapya na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama

"That supreme abode is called unmanifested and infallible, and it is the supreme destination. When one goes there, he never comes back. That is My supreme abode.

And in verse 6.15 Krishna says:

na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama

"That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world."

Some devotees interpret these verses to mean that a liberated person who has gone back to Godhead from the material world will never fall again whereas souls who have never fallen may still fall at some time in the future if they decide to seek a higher type of satisfaction which they want to experience in the material world. Yet if some cowherd boy in Goloka makes a conscious choice to fall into Maya so he can experience enjoyment separate from Krishna then why doesn't Krishna take care of his silly friend and save him from all the trouble that he will go through? Why doesn't Krishna protect the boy from the reactions that will come about because of his desire to enter Maya and get born in physical bodies that get old and rotten? Krishna says in the gita (9.31): "Declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish." Why does Krishna say that if he doesn't save his cowherd friends from becoming grubs? This is my fourth question.

There are billions of living souls in this world, all of which have fallen into illusion from Vaikuntha (we believe). Why does Krishna allow so many of his eternal friends from Goloka who he used to play with in the pasture grounds fall into a state of seemingly perpetual illusion

(Considering this issue carefully, I am starting to feel I should recant on my earlier decision to accept that the souls in this world fall down from Vaikuntha. It is much easier to accommodate the idea that souls who have fallen from Brahman are filling up this world and that none of the miserable maggots in the rubbish pile at the local junkyard were formerly cowherd boys in Goloka).

Previously I wrote:

If each and every fly and germ in the material world was originally a servant of Krishna in Vaikuntha, if the residents of Goloka such as Gopis and Gopas can become maggots and spend millions of lifetimes in samsara, then what about Krishna's statement "Declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish." (Bhagavad gita 9.31)?

Mahesh Raja presented an article in which he said that souls in this world start of as Brahma and fall down from there. But then, as he mentioned in quotes he gave in regard the fallen jiva, "before that even, he was with Krishna". That is, before he was a Brahma he was a cowherd (or a resident of Vaikuntha), and then Krishna let this liberated individual who was doing service fall into illusion and become a fool, become a Brahma, and become a maggot. Sorry if my language seems harsh but I want to emphasize this issue that concerns me deeply. If one of the brahmana gentlemen presently advising me how to understand Krishna Consciousness properly would please enlighten me about this matter I would be extremely grateful.

The next question I have, the fifth question is that I would like to know why a distinction is made in the scriptures between jiva souls who arise from the marginal potency and the eternal residents of Vaikuntha who are said to be expansions of the antaranga shakti? If all of us jivas were originally part of the Goloka-lila and consequently part of the antaranga shakti then why is it that in the scriptures such as Brahma Samhita it is stated that the jiva souls arise from Brahman (not the antaranga shakti)?

(Various persons have made comments about how the translations of the writings of previous Acaryas are unreliable translations. But this is a moot point in regard to the English translation we have of Brahma Samhita because that book is coming to us in the direct English words penned by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.)

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote in Sri Brahma Samhita. Text 21:

*

sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakrtis ca paraiva sa

TRANSLATION: The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

PURPORT: Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krishna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Geeta it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

Here, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura clearly states in his own words written in English that the jiva shakti is tatastha shakti. Moreover, we do know that tatastha shakti is different from the antaranga shakti from which the parshads (eternal associates) are expanded. So in summary, my fifth question is that I would like to know why the previous Acaryas make a distinction between tatastha shakti and antaranga shakti if the jiva shakti is not truly arising from the "margin" between Prakriti and the antaranga shakti. Shouldn't it become a point of philosophy we preach, that this jiva shakti is made up of persons who used to be in the antaranga shakti but who then became ignorant fools.

I started this article off by saying that I now accept the notion that all the jivas in this world have fallen down from Vaikuntha. But having reconsidered all these points I do wonder if there are serious fundamental problems that have arisen simultaneously with the notion that eternal servitors of the Lord can fall into Maya.

Might it be possible, I wonder, that at some time in the future Srila Prabhupada himself will decide to seek happiness in the material world? I appreciate that many devotees will think this statement of mine is scandalous. But truly I am just trying to understand this idea that anyone in Vaikuntha can fall down into illusion.

I wonder about all this. If anyone can fall from Goloka into Maya then maybe one day Chandravali and other Gopis will decide to leave aside that life they are living on the slopes of Govardhana. Maybe they will decide to seek the greater joys of life that can be found in the material world.

Oh, and if Chandravali decides to leave Goloka, will Krishna let her become a grub or a tree for millions of lifetimes? I just don't know the answer to that.

March 20, 2007

When he said this I couldn't accept what he said is true. I was frightened of him so I didn't dare to doubt what he said. But later I realized this whole notion of souls falling from Vaikuntha is contrary to the teachings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura who said that jiva souls arise from the jiva shakti situated in the tatastha position mid-way between the material and spiritual worlds.

It is clear that Impersonal liberation is only attained after one first ‘consciously’ abandoning ones original perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, and then, after entering the mahat-tattva cloud and chasing selfish desires, dreams and thoughts of self importance and grander, further eventually abandon those impermanent ethereal and biological vessels out of frustration, then entering the tatastra inactive Impersonal conscious state. Remember, one has first ‘consciously transferred their consciousness to the mahat-tattva’, long, long, long before entering the tatastra condition of consciousness, One original transferred their jiva-bhutah secondary consciousness to the mahat-tattva in order to achieve autonomy from Krishna’s Personal association and their own eternal Krishna Conscious body they serve Krishna as.

This is what His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness means when he says:

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastra-sakti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Also when it is said there is no past and future in Vaikuntha, it means no measurement of time like the material universe, everything exists in the eternal present that distinguishes mundane material time in the mahat-tattva from the perpetual lila's going on in Goloka or Vaikuntha. What Venu Gopal said is not wrong, it is misunderstood.

We have all been to Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because that is where our present conscious condition originates from.

March 20, 2007

It is clear that Impersonal liberation is only attained after one first ‘consciously’ abandoning ones original perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, and then, after entering the mahat-tattva cloud and chasing selfish desires, dreams and thoughts of self importance and grander, further eventually abandon those impermanent ethereal and biological vessels out of frustration, then entering the tatastra inactive Impersonal conscious state. Remember, one has first ‘consciously transferred their consciousness to the mahat-tattva’, long, long, long before entering the tatastra condition of consciousness, One original transferred their jiva-bhutah secondary consciousness to the mahat-tattva in order to achieve autonomy from Krishna’s Personal association and their own eternal Krishna Conscious body they serve Krishna as.

What about Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura's statement quoted above?

The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

The souls have been in this illusion from a time that has no beginning.

March 20, 2007

What about Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura's statement quoted above?

The souls have been in this illusion from a time that has no beginning.

That because they have been falling from Vaikuntha into this illusion (the mahat-tattva) from a time that has no beginning.

March 20, 2007

Also when it is said there is no past and future in Vaikuntha, it means no measurement of time like the material universe, everything exists in the eternal present that distinguishes mundane material time in the mahat-tattva from the perpetual lila's going on in Goloka or Vaikuntha. What Venu Gopal said is not wrong, it is misunderstood.

This is plainly wrong.

The past and future do exist in Goloka. I was just reading Brhadbhagavatamrtam to my son before he went to sleep, reading how the Gopis are waiting and praying for that beautiful future moment when they would see Krishna on the path coming back from the forest.

This eternal present you speak of - if Mother Yashoda cannot see Krishna right now, does she want to remain in this present state? She longs for the future moment when she will be re-united with Gopala.

Wake up.

Your philosophy about falling from Goloka is based on misconceptions.

If we were in Vaikuntha and doing service but now we are in misery in the material world, why did Krishna let us (his gopas and gopis) fall into this state of illusion, since he himself has proclaimed "My devotee will never perish".

The article by pundarikarksa pointed out, in much more eloquent words than what I can write, that there are several serious philsophical issues that arise if we think that Krishna can allow his eternal servants to fall into illusion.

And by the way, which translation of this verse of the Gita (15.6) do you prefer:

a)

That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.

b)

That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it <b>a second time </b>never returns to this material world.

Version B is what you are promoting, aren't you?

March 20, 2007

I have just one question that I want you people to answer.

Can you find even one verse, anywhere in the scriptures, that says the Jiva Tattva (marginal potency) originates from the internal potency (antaranga shakti)

I'm not interested in hearing anything more from you people, until you give me an answer to this.

March 20, 2007

That because they have been falling from Vaikuntha into this illusion (the mahat-tattva) from a time that has no beginning.

Is English your second language?

The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

The meaning in English is very clear. Souls in maya have been in "the clutches of the deluding potency" from a time that has no beginning.

Srila Saraswati Thakur says souls have been in illusion perpetually. If he says the fallen souls are in illusion from a time that has no beginning then this means there was no previous time when the souls were "wise" or "devoted to Krishna". The meaning of his words is very, very clear.

A soul can attain brahman realization but if they don't become submissive to Bhagavan then they fall back into illusion - and this has been happening from a time that has no beginning.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.2.32

ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas

tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ

āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraḿ padaḿ tataḥ

patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-ańghrayaḥ

O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position of Brahman liberation may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet.

March 20, 2007

When we hear that we live in this material world because we are “fallen souls,” it’s natural for us to ask, “Where have we fallen from?”

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down.

That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected. “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, three generations before Srila Prabhupada in the line of spiritual teachers, put it this way: “Please avoid the misleading question ‘When were these jivas [living beings] created and enthralled?’ The Mayik time has no existence in spiritual history, because it has its commencement after the enthrallment of jivas, and you cannot, therefore, employ Mayik chronology in matters like these.”

“The Relationship is Eternal”

Here, then, is how Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall and leave it.

“Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.”

“Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.”

In another letter, Srila Prabhupada gave further insights. “We are always with Krishna. Where is Krishna not present?” But “when we forget this fact we are far, far away from Him. In the Isopanisad it is clearly stated, tad dure tad v antike: ‘He is very far away, but He is very near as well.’ (Isopanisad, Mantra Five). So this forgetfulness is our falldown. It can take place at any moment, and we can counteract this forgetfulness immediately by rising to the platform of Krishna consciousness.”

Our relationship with Krishna is never lost, Srila Prabhupada said. “Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya. So it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of Krishna, and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krishna is eternal, as both Krishna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.”

In still another letter, Srila Prabhupada restated this in yet another way: “We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world, or maya.” But when we chant the Hare Krishna mantra sincerely and without offense, our original Krishna consciousness is at once revived. “So naturally everything about Krishna is originally known to us all, and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His holy name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krishna in different ways.”

Our separation from Krishna, Srila Prabhupada taught, is like a dream. We dream, “I am this body,” and we dream of happiness in material relationships. This dreaming condition is our non-liberated state. But although this state of dreaming may seem to last for lifetimes, as soon as we become Krishna conscious we awaken, and the dream at once disappears. “After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila [pastimes] of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, like dreaming.”

The Mahabharata tells us that we can’t know the truth simply by logic and arguments (tarko ‘pratistah). Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet: “There’s no use arguing over that which is inconceivable.” After all, it’s inconceivable.

Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, one of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers, respected for his deep philosophical realization, used to stress the same point, one of his followers told us. Repeatedly asked about where the living beings fell from, Srila Sridhara Maharaja grew weary of the question. “Why do you always ask about the most difficult thing to understand?” he once responded. “Why not try to understand the most easy thing?” That is: how to become Krishna conscious and go back to Godhead.

Pure devotees of Krishna avoid endless arguments. Such devotees know that such arguments are merely another distraction offered by maya. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (6.4.31):

yac-chaktayo vadatam vadinam vai

vivada-samvada-bhuvo bhavanti

kurvanti caisam muhur atma-moham

tasmai namo ’nanta-gunaya bhumne

“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the all-pervading Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has unlimited transcendental qualities. Acting from within the cores of the hearts of all philosophers, who propagate various views, He makes them forget their own souls while sometimes agreeing and sometimes disagreeing among themselves. Thus He creates within this material world a situation in which they are unable to come to a conclusion. I offer my obeisances unto Him.”

Therefore, the student in transcendental science is best advised to simply accept what has been accepted by his own bona fide Krishna conscious acarya, or spiritual master. As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says, “It is a great offense to disrespect the acarya and to seek to establish a different doctrine in opposition to him.”

March 20, 2007

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.10

sei vibhinnāḿśa jīva — dui ta' prakāra

eka — 'nitya-mukta', eka — 'nitya-saḿsāra'

"The living entities [jīvas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

Note the words in Bengali: nitya-saḿsāra

Eternally in samsara....

'nitya-mukta' — nitya kṛṣṇa-caraṇe unmukha

'kṛṣṇa-pāriṣada' nāma, bhuñje sevā-sukha

Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They are to be considered eternal associates of Kṛṣṇa, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Kṛṣṇa.

'nitya-bandha' — kṛṣṇa haite nitya-bahirmukha

'nitya-saḿsāra', bhuñje narakādi duḥkha

Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions.

-----------------------

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.108-109

jīvera 'svarūpa' haya — kṛṣṇera 'nitya-dāsa'

kṛṣṇera 'taṭasthā-śakti' 'bhedābheda-prakāśa'

sūryāḿśa-kiraṇa, yaiche agni-jvālā-caya

svābhāvika kṛṣṇera tina-prakāra 'śakti' haya

It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa because he is the marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kṛṣṇa has three varieties of energy.

-------------------

See the words above "Kṛṣṇa has three varieties of energy".

-------------------

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.111

kṛṣṇera svābhāvika tina-śakti-pariṇati

cic-chakti, jīva-śakti, āra māyā-śakti

"Lord Kṛṣṇa naturally has three energetic transformations, and these are known as the spiritual potency, the living entity potency and the illusory potency.

----------------------

The words Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu spoke to Sanatana Goswami are clear - are they not? There are 3 potencies. cit-shakti (antaranga), jiva-shakti (tatastha) and maya-shakti (bahiranga shakti).

I asked that you provide a verse saying the jiva shakti is coming from the antaranga shakti. Here is the answer... will you take it?

You may have detected that I am feeling rather annoyed with you. Why is that? Well the fact is, I am a disciple of Sri Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaj who you mis-quote below and it annoys the hell out of me when I see people misrepresenting what my Guru taught us.

What you say below is wrong.

Guru Maharaj said very clearly that the tatastha souls originate from Brahman, and everyone who knows even the basics of what Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaj taught knows that he taught this.

Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, one of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers, respected for his deep philosophical realization, used to stress the same point, one of his followers told us. Repeatedly asked about where the living beings fell from, Srila Sridhara Maharaja grew weary of the question. “Why do you always ask about the most difficult thing to understand?” he once responded. “Why not try to understand the most easy thing?” That is: how to become Krishna conscious and go back to Godhead.

Beggar · March 20, 2007

Once I heard on an audio recording, Srila Sridhar Maharaja saying that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur told that actually the jivas in the material world are not sat-cit-ananda in their present condition. Consequently some of Srila B.V. Prabhuapada's godbrothers criticized him because they heard some Western preachers stating that we are all sat-cit-ananda like Bhagavan Sri Krsna. Srila Sridhar Maharaja harmonized this by telling that, "everything is know by it's potential, so if Swami Maharaja and his disciples are telling sat-cit-ananda it is not wrong for this is the potential of the jiva soul." The criticizing godbrothers liked very much how Srila Sridhar Maharaja harmonized this. In ISKCON we always would preach that, "the jiva souls are eternally blissfull and full of knowldedge. But presently we are in an asat, acit and nirananda condition, in a temporary life, covered by ignorance and full of misery." There is always more than one way or angle of vision to view all Krsna Conscious topics. But to think that the eternal associates of the Lord are falling out of Goloka is some kind of Vaisnava aparadha.

theist · March 20, 2007

Theist your idea that there is no past and future in the "Spiritual Sky" is wrong.

While we are engaging in material life the Lord in Vaikuntha is watching us. Time is passing by in this world, and in that world too.

Well if I thought that were true that would surely shake up my position on time. But you have offered no proof other than a statement that I am wrong.

I know from my experience in material time what the conceptions of past and future feel like. Although I expect something very different is experienced by the residents of the transcendental abode or why call it transcendent? I have some vauge thoughts on what that might be, as in the eternal present or now, but because I am still bound by material time conceptions I have no faith in them. But you do know that now, this one instant is tangible and all there is And past lamentations as well as future hankerings are all just dream substance which dominate the mind in this maya.

If that is acceptable to you then you can understand that when the jiva is no longer throwing his consciousness back to the past or forward to the future in material fantasy and can remain fixed on Krsna right now, in the present, then he is in eternal consciousness and has transcended the material time conception.

Your statement that time is passing by in Vaikuntha I believe to be a projection on your part.

Even some material scientists are postulating that past and future in this world may be happening simultaneously. I can't follow their jargon enough to understand how they come to that but there they are.

So for the present it is a great mystery but when we come to know Krsna we will become so rapt in His beauty that we won't care for past or future thoughts and will be happy to be serving for His enjoyment in the eternal present.

So considering this is the natural state of things there one could naturally ask, "how could maya enter and draw away any soul?" Maya cannot approach any soul externally I agree. The soul from within himself can however, desire to be the prime enjoyer and resent Krsna His position.

At that very instant (not the next instant) he could fall into the bramajyoti and then fall further when he feels again from within himself the urge to be a person. At that point he emerges from brahman and has the oppurtunity to choose to serve or play enjoyer. If he chooses to serve Krsna he is "reinstated" (although he never left because of absence of 'past' conceptions), and if he wants to enjoy as a person he slides down into the material pool and becomes bound by time and space.

Again, this is just philosophical speculation and not my ardent stance on the issue. I have chosen to just wait and see. At present my house is on fire so I haven't the luxery of spending too much time trying to figure this out and worrying about Tal fruit logic.

Hare Krsna

Beggar · March 20, 2007

The time factor in the material world is part of Maha Maya, the external world. The passage of time in the spiritual world is under the control of Yoga Maya, or the internal potency of the Lord. The time factor in this world leads to birth, death, disease and old age whereas in the spiritual world, time is part of the divine lila of Sri Krsna and His devotees. When it is said that there is no influence of time in the Vaikunthas it means that there is no influence of time as we know it with these four factors. The time we experience here would therefore be a perverted reflection of the time there.

March 20, 2007

I hear you. LOL! Funny post but the point you're making is compelling. Let's see how the Prabhupada book-vadis respond to this!

<font size=5 color="red" face="monotype corsiva">So they are saying none of the people in the material world are really here. We are all in Vaikuntha right now. Brilliant.

So I have a question to ask.

Why does Lord Caitanya come into the material world to awaken the souls from illusion if they aren't really here.

Since the root cause of the problem is that sometimes a soul will desire to seek happiness in Maya, leaving Krishna, then why doesn't Lord Chaitanya busy himself with preaching to these people in Vaikuntha?

Do they have preaching campaigns in Goloka?

Do they have Jehova Witness type preachers going door to door warning people about what will happen to them if they forget Krishna or serving Krishna?

Pity if they don't because if they did then the material world would never have been populated in the first place would it?</font>

theist · March 20, 2007

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Saraswati Thakura

The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

The meaning in English is very clear. Souls in maya have been in "the clutches of the deluding potency" from a time that has no beginning.

Srila Saraswati Thakur says souls have been in illusion perpetually. If he says the fallen souls are in illusion from a time that has no beginning then this means there was no previous time when the souls were "wise" or "devoted to Krishna". The meaning of his words is very, very clear.

Your interpretation would also exclude the brahmajyoti wouldn't it?

It sounds very much like you are saying that jivas originate in matter. Do you believe that? Or am I hearing you wrong? I can't accept that myself.

This sounds too much like the conceptions some Christians espouse about the mean old Father God who forces His children to suffer.

theist · March 20, 2007

The past and future do exist in Goloka. I was just reading Brhadbhagavatamrtam to my son before he went to sleep, reading how the Gopis are waiting and praying for that beautiful future moment when they would see Krishna on the path coming back from the forest.

This eternal present you speak of - if Mother Yashoda cannot see Krishna right now, does she want to remain in this present state? She longs for the future moment when she will be re-united with Gopala.

I am not saying the spiritual world is void of movement and pastimes. TRY TO HEAR THIS PLEASE. I am saying that our conceptions of past and future cannot be projected onto the transcendental dimension. Until we are liberated we will not really understand eternity. But the idea of a linear past present future scenario in the Spiritual Sky is farsical.

This is the reason we are advised to not break a sweat over this issue. It is inconceivable to our minds and cannot be conveyed properly into human language and conditioned human conceptions.

Just like children ask questions that we know the answer to but we also know they are not capable of understanding the answer yet. We tell them "you will understand when you grow up." Children are never satisifed with this answer but that is just the way it is.

March 20, 2007

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Saraswati Thakura

The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>



Your interpretation would also exclude the brahmajyoti wouldn't it?

It sounds very much like you are saying that jivas originate in matter. Do you believe that? Or am I hearing you wrong? I can't accept that myself.

Theist,

Perhaps you missed this posting I made:

The meaning in English is very clear. Souls in maya have been in "the clutches of the deluding potency" from a time that has no beginning.

Srila Saraswati Thakur says souls have been in illusion perpetually. If he says the fallen souls are in illusion from a time that has no beginning then this means there was no previous time when the souls were "wise" or "devoted to Krishna". The meaning of his words is very, very clear.

A soul can attain brahman realization but if they don't become submissive to Bhagavan then they fall back into illusion - and this has been happening from a time that has no beginning.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.2.32

ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas

tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ

āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraḿ padaḿ tataḥ

patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-ańghrayaḥ

O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position of Brahman liberation may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet.

When souls are in Brahman they are liberated. So it is not true that souls originate in matter (the Radha kunda babajis promote that idea by the way). But rather what happens is that souls are liberated in brahman for a while, or they are lost in samsara for a while. Up, down, up, down.

All the time they are "nitya-baddha" or "nitya-samsara" jivas.

March 20, 2007

Theist your idea that there is no past and future in the "Spiritual Sky" is wrong.

While we are engaging in material life the Lord in Vaikuntha is watching us. Time is passing by in this world, and in that world too.

Well if I thought that were true that would surely shake up my position on time. But you have offered no proof other than a statement that I am wrong.

Perhaps you also missed the quoted selection from Brhadbhagavatamrtam.

Here it is again (shortened.. the full quote is on the previous page):

81 Then, the Lord said: Welcome! Welcome! Child, it is so fortunate, so fortunate, that you are here with Me. For so long I have longed to see you.

82 Dear friend, somehow you passed many births without coming to see Me.

83 Hoping that in this, in this, in this, in this birth you would turn to Me, I danced as a fool.

84 Brother, I could not find a pretext to bring you to My abode and still protect the ancient rules of religion.

85-6 Seeing that you had not attained My mercy, I became overcome with mercy for you. Ignoring the rules of karma, I gave you a birth on Govardhana Hill, My favourite place, and then, O dear friend, I became your guru, who was named Jayanta.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.7.42.

87 Today you have suddenly fulfilled my long-cherished desire. Please stay here always and make Me happy.

The Lord of Vaikuntha clearly says that he is watching us, while his daily pastimes are going on in Vaikuntha.

There is a lot more information along these lines in Brhadbagavatamrtam, including a statement that when the Lord incarnates on Earth as an Avatara he departs from Vaikuntha and cannot be seen in his transcendental palace.

Beggar · March 20, 2007

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Saraswati Thakura

The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>



Your interpretation would also exclude the brahmajyoti wouldn't it?

It sounds very much like you are saying that jivas originate in matter. Do you believe that? Or am I hearing you wrong? I can't accept that myself.

This sounds too much like the conceptions some Christians espouse about the mean old Father God who forces His children to suffer.

The brahmajyoti is beyond material time. Time measures motion. There is motion everywhere in Krsna's energy and creations. Motion means dynamic, there is no real statis in the brahmajyoti and that why the jivas do not remain there. The measured period of when the jivas were manifested in the brahmajyoti, through their existence there, until they became acitivated jivas manifesting desire is not like the measured periods of time in this world. It is acintya, inconcievable and therefore beyond the ability of our "puppy brains" to understand or "measure". Therefore the rshis or seers have told us that our conditioned existence is anadi, beginningless or from time immemorial.

March 20, 2007

So considering this is the natural state of things there one could naturally ask, "how could maya enter and draw away any soul?" Maya cannot approach any soul externally I agree. The soul from within himself can however, desire to be the prime enjoyer and resent Krsna His position.

At that very instant (not the next instant) he could fall into the bramajyoti and then fall further when he feels again from within himself the urge to be a person. At that point he emerges from brahman and has the oppurtunity to choose to serve or play enjoyer. If he chooses to serve Krsna he is "reinstated" (although he never left because of absence of 'past' conceptions), and if he wants to enjoy as a person he slides down into the material pool and becomes bound by time and space.

I agree with Beggar who said:

But to think that the eternal associates of the Lord are falling out of Goloka is some kind of Vaisnava aparadha.

There is no statement anywhere in the scriptures saying that the jiva-shakti has originated from the antaranga shakti.

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Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

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