Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

[theist 1]

 

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The question is where is the spiritual body right now? Why do you think it so impossible that the spiritual body is on the spiritual plane?

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The scriptures say we do not get given a spiritual body at any time. The spiritual body is dormant within us.

 

See Vedanta Sutra 4.1.1 for a detailed discussion about this. Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada also says the same thing

 

Guest1008,

 

What do you think is meant by "dormant within us"? Within where? Within what? The spiritual form is us right now. We don't really obtain a spiritual body, we are a spiritual body. But to be ourselves and act as a spiritual body we need to be engaged in a loving serving relationship with Krsna for that is the only occupation of the spiritual form.

 

There is no place for spiritual form in the Brahman or in the dream world of matter where all forms are transcient, wispy and mirage like.

[theist 1]

 

Vedanta Sutra, 4.4. 1

 

(translation by Bhakti Caitanya Swami of ISKCON)

 

akaitave bhakti-save 'nurajyan svam eva yaù sevakasät karoti

tato 'ti-modaà muditaù sa devaù sadä cid-änanda-tanur dhinotu

May the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose form is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss, and who, pleased with His devotees sincere devotion, gives Himself to them, fill us with transcendental happiness.

The Original Forms of the Liberated Souls

Introduction by Çréla Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa

 

In this section of Vedanta-sutra the original forms of the liberated souls will be described first, and then their glory, opulence, bliss, and other features. In the Chändogya Upaniñad (8.12.3) the god Brahmä states:

evam evaiña samprasädo 'smät çarérät samutthäya paraà jyotir upasampadya svena rüpeëäbhiniñpadyate sa uttamaù puruñaù

“By the Supreme Lord's mercy, the enlightened soul leaves his material body and enters the effulgent spiritual world. There he attains his own spiritual body. He becomes the most exalted of persons."

 

Saàçaya (a doubt arises): Does the liberated soul attain a body, like the bodies of the demigods, that is different from himself, or does the manifest his original identity, which is not different from himself?

Pürvapakña (the opponent speaks): he attains a body different from himself. This must be so because the word “abhiniñpadyate" (is attained) is mentioned in the verse of Chändogya Upaniñad. Any other interpretation would make this word meaningless and would also make meaningless the scriptures' statement that liberation is a benefit attained by the soul. If this form is only the original nature of the soul and it had existed all along, then attaining it would not be a benefit granted to the soul. Therefore this form is newly attained by the soul and is different from the soul's original nature.

Siddhänta (Vyasa’s conclusion): In the following words Vyas, the author of Vedanta-sutra, gives His conclusion.

Sütra 4.4.1

sampadyävirbhävaù svena-çabdät

sampadya—of he who has attained; ävirbhävaù—manifestation; svena—svena; çabdät—by the word.

 

Because of the word "svena" it is the manifestation of he who has gone.

Commentary by Çréla Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa

The individual soul who, by means of devotional service accompanied with knowledge and renunciation, attains the effulgent Supreme, becomes free from the bondage of karma and attains a body endowed with eight virtues. This body is said to be the soul's original form. Why is that? The sütra explains, "svena-çabdät" (because of the word "svena"). The word "svena" here means, "in his own original form". For this reason it cannot be said that this passage means, "the soul arrives there and then accepts a form which is an external imposition". In that way it is proved that the form here is the original form of the soul. This is not contradicted by the use of the word "niñpadyate" in the verse of Chändogya Upaniñad, for that word is also used to mean, "is manifested". An example of that usage is seen in the following words found elsewhere the Çruti-çästra:

idam ekaà su-niñpannam

"He is manifested."

 

Also, it is not that the manifestation of the soul's original form cannot be a goal of human endeavour, because it already exists. This is so because even though the soul's original form exists it is not openly manifested. Therefore it is not useless to say that the soul may endeavour to make manifest the original form of the soul.

 

Here someone may say: When the soul is manifested in its original form and it attains the effulgent Supreme, as described in the words "paraà jyotir upasampadya", the liberated state thus attained is characterized mainly by the cessation of all material sufferings. But if this is said, then I reply, no, it is not so. The Çruti-çästra explains that in the liberated state the soul is filled with intense spiritual bliss. This is described in Taittiréya Upaniñad (2.7):

rasaà hy eväyaà labdhvänandé-bhavati

"When someone realizes God, the reservoir of pleasure, he becomes blissful."

 

Oh, that was nice. Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.295

 

seva sadhaka rupena siddha rupena catra hi |

tad bhava lipsuna karya vraja lokanusratah ||

 

Translation: Following after the inhabitants of Vraja, one should perform service in one's physical body and in one's siddha body, with a desire for a particular bhava.

 

Jiva Goswami's Commentary

 

Sadhaka-rupa refers to the physical body of the practitioner of sadhana bhakti. Siddha rupa refers to the body which is suitable for one's desired service, and which has been developed by internal meditation.

 

--------------------------

 

MURALIDHAR NOTE: The siddha rupa arises from within the consciousness of the sadhana-bhakta. When a bhakta has a pure desire to offer a flower with a pure, beautiful child's hand which is like the hand of the Vrajabasi group leader that one is following (Rupa Manjari etc), then the consciousness of having a pure spiritual hand will emerge from within one's consciousness, naturally. In this way, the whole of the siddha rupa will become manifest through the power of pure devotion manifesting through the grace of Guru and Sri Radha Govinda in the pure consciousness of a bhakta.

[Guest guest]

Narada-Muni walking with Krishna in Goloka-Vrindavan (Kingdom of God) and falling to the material universe.

 

The following is another pastime (Lila) of the great sage Narada-Muni that took place walking with Krishna outside the walls of Dwarka in Goloka-Vrndavana. Krishna was about to teach Narada a valuable lesson about the powerful influence of Maya (forgetfulness) after one chooses to leave Goloka-Vrndavana

 

Narada-Muni, a great Devotee of Lord Krishna, was once walking outside the perimeter of Dwarka (one of Krishna’s great Palaces in Goloka) with the Lord. As they walked, Narada asked Krishna,

 

“How is it possible for one to want to leave such a beautiful place as Goloka-Vrndavana? ‘How could a devotee choose to forget Krishna and end up in the temporary material world (mahat-tattva) in an ethereal (heavenly/hellish) or biological (earthly) body?”

 

Narada looked at Krishna in total ecstasy and bliss wondering how anyone could leave such beauty. He was confused, as he new the mahat-tattva was full of souls who all were previously with Krishna in their genuine eternal bodily-form that is perpetually endowed with an imperishable identity, personality and individuality? Due to the perpetual nature of the Vaikuntha’s, ones original bodily form is always there even if one is sub-consciously unaware of this fact due to being absorbed in material dreams restrained by ethereal and biological vessels. How is it possible to forgot Krishna and their own real identity by turning their back on Him and manufacturing so many counterfeit identities, personalities and forms outside of Goloka-Vrndavana within the temporary material universe, how could this happen?

 

As they walked through the forest, a young girl caught Narada’s attention; she was struggling to carry two buckets of water near a well. Out of pity, Narada went over and offered his helping hand to the struggling girl; she gladly accepted his offer, as she was exhausted.

 

Gladly and compassionate Narada-Muni carried the two buckets of water and proceeded to the girls’ destination at a nearby Village.

 

On the way there, the simplicity and innocents of this beautiful young girl was so sweet and captivating that Narada was speechless in her association. She broke the silence by explaining she was the daughter of the Village elder and her father was a great leader and devotee of Krishna. Narada, however was so captivated by the girl’s sweet voice, flowing long hair and colourful sari, he was not listening. He was totally dumbfounded in her presents.

 

When they arrived at the Village the girl introduced her new friend to her father. He was very impressed by Narada’s qualities, and thought this man must be a great devotee of Lord Krishna. He immediately further thought ‘what a nice husband this young man would make for my daughter’ The Village elder felt obligated to reward Narada for his service.

 

All the Villagers gathered around thinking Narada must be a great Sage and suggested the best reward for him was the village elder’s daughter in marriage. Narada-Muni was so attached and comfortable with the girl that he accepted the offering!

 

The wedding day arrived and everyone in the surrounding area came. The Village Brahmin’s (priests) performed the fire yajna (purification ceremony) and many gifts were given. After the marriage Narada and his new wife settled in performing various duties.

 

Narada eventually became the Head Master of the Gurukula (school). In due course his wife fell pregnant with their first child. A boy was born and the Village was ecstatic, celebrating late into the night. As time went on Narada’s happiness increased being with his family and living in the Village, he never had a worry in the world. Over the years he was bestowed another six children. He enjoyed watching them grow, becoming educated and playing sporting games with them. All his children were adorned with beautiful qualities.

 

Twenty years had passed, his father in-law, the Village elder, passed away suddenly due to illness; everyone was saddened and would only accept Narada as the new Village elder.

 

Many more years passed and he eventually gave permission to a young boy to marry his daughter. Everything was so perfect, so peaceful. Narada was totally satisfied with his wife, children, grandchildren and all the wonderful people in the Village.

 

Then one day an enormous storm came to the Village, pelting heavy rain with strong winds that destroyed houses. Narada decided he must immediately evacuate the Village, but it was too late, flooding had made it impossible to escape. The storm became more intense, the water level was rising fast and raging torrents were destroying everything in its path.

 

Narada frantically searched for his wife, children, grandchildren and friends, He found himself trapped on a plank of wood in the powerful fast-moving water looking everywhere through the hail, wind and turbulent water for his wife, but new she must have been washed away by the flood and drowned. His son in law and daughter also found a plank of wood and was attempting to ride out the storm however, it only got worse and they eventually lost their footing and also perished. Then to Narada’s amazement he saw two of his young grand children high up in a tree holding on to dear life. Narada reached out to them screaming,

 

“Just hold on to me, give me your hand and I will save you!”

 

They reached out and at the same time a huge wave overpowered all of them, frantically Narada searched through the water screaming out for his grandchildren, but they also had perished.

 

He continued calling out,

 

“Don’t leave me, just hold on somehow, don’t leave me!”

 

Then he also got in difficulty grasping for air yet also perished in the flood.

 

At that exact moment, Narada felt a tap on the shoulder, he slowly opened his eyes still lamenting and wanting to be with his family. He found himself sitting against a well; again Narada yelled out in bewilderment,

“Where is my family?”

 

Then realized the tap on the shoulder was from Krishna standing next to him. Krishna laughed and said,

 

“You wanted to know how powerful Maya (forgetfulness) was, so I showed you. You have been sitting against that well for no more than a moment, a blink of the eye yet you experienced a life time!”

 

Coming to his senses, Narada says to Krishna,

 

“You mean all that experience, my wife, my children, my friends, my wealth, my fame, my followers, the Village, was a dream?”

 

Krishna replies,

 

“No, not just a dream but your desire to enjoy separately from Me. It was all real but everything outside my Kingdom is impermanent, your entire experience was a lesson to show you how easy it is for a devotee in Goloka-Vrndavana, who is eternally liberated, until they choose not to be, as you have just done, and be captivated by Maya (forgetfulness and illusion) after choosing to leave My abode. This how one’s secondary consciousness is extended from one’s genuine self and form then falls (or is transmitted) to be restrained in a temporary bodily vessels governed by forgetfulness birth, disease, old age short memory and death. To experience such an impermanent nature, only exists within My material universe (mahat-tattva) outside My Eternal abode of Goloka Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

In My Spiritual Universe, there is no death or impermanence however, as soon as you chose to leave Me and help the girl, you were immediately transferred to My material universe (mahat-tattva) and experienced the fleeting forgetful nature of the transitory universe, including death by drowning.

 

This is because you were attached to something other than loving devotional service to Me; (Krishna or God) you chose to turn your back on me just for a moment to help the young girl and became captivated by your own selfless compassion to help her, so much so you forgot Me! That moment seemed like a lifetime.

Genuine selflessness is doing everything for My pleaser and you, along with others, simply became inattentive.

 

Many of my devotees experience this illusion like you have as Lila (pastime), so I can teach them a valuable lesson however, others who turn their back on me and become attracted to the flicking beauty of self indulgence, can remain in the material universe forgetting their true form, identify, personality and individuality for almost what appears to be an eternity, transmigrating through many millions of counterfeit bodies in their search for so called happiness.

 

In the material world (mahat-tattva), this is like chasing after a mirage in the desert that only appears real, but in reality is only an illusion. The impermanent universe is both real and an illusion because it is transitory. This is what temporary ethereal (heavenly or hellish) and biological (earthly) bodies in the material universe are like, they all end in disappointment because they fade away because everything one has accumulated and worked so hard to achieve is lost and ultimately forgotten – everything just fades in time.

 

Conditioned souls who are trapped in the material universe experience that ‘moment of being away from my Kingdom’ as billions upon billions of life times in billions of different bodies that seem like an eternity, so much so, many foolishly come to believe the Impersonal inactive effulgent Brahmajoyti, or bright light, which is the motionless effulgence of trillions of individual jiva nikaya’s surrounding My body in the form of Maha-Vishnu, is the starting and ending point of their existence.

 

All of them have forgotten their real form and relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrndavana

 

This is very difficult to understand without My favour because it is very complicated for you to understand the eternal stage on which all this illusion within the impermanent material universe is unfolding.

 

In actual fact, all of those jiva nikaya’s were once like you and had a personal intimate relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrndavana; they still do, but have temporally forgotten. As in your case of sitting against the well and captivated by absent-mindedness and pleasing yourself by pleasing a young village girl just for a moment (in Vaikuntha so-called time).

 

In this way the consciousness of those who choose to sub-consciously leave My Personal abode and their real form, identity, personality and individually, like in a dream, have also become self interested, leaving behind their original form, just as you did Narada, in Goloka-Vrndavana. On leaving your true identity you then fabricate numerus counterfeit forms, identities and personalities like one does in a dream at night while their biological body is dreaming.

 

Some in this way transfer their secondary consciousness to the material universe (mahat-tattva), as your consciousness had just experienced by turning your back on Me to pursue the young village girl.

 

In actual fact there is no beginning or ending point of the jivatma-vigraha, this Impersonal conclusion by some lost souls, which includes many learned Vaishnava and caste Goswamis, have miss understood their eternal relationship with Me that is always there in Goloka-Vrndavana, even if they have forgotten”. Narada shastra text

 

"Their idea that the soul originates from the Brahmajoyti is due to the long association they have had within many fleeting bodies within the temporary universe, being trapped within forgetfulness and sensual identity and association for so, so long, that they have forgotten their original form, identity, personality individuality and selfless devotional love in their eternal relationship with Me as you, Narada, have just done. Even a great devotee like you should never underestimate the power of My 1Maya (forgetfulness and illusion)” if you first choose to go into her association by ‘consciously’ entering the mahat-tattva!" - Pradyumna Swami

[Guest guest]

 

I have just one question that I want you people to answer.

 

Can you find even one verse, anywhere in the scriptures, that says the Jiva Tattva (marginal potency) originates from the internal potency (antaranga shakti)

 

I'm not interested in hearing anything more from you people, until you give me an answer to this.

 

 

Question posted two days ago, but still not answered...

[Guest guest]

 

Narada-Muni walking with Krishna in Goloka-Vrindavan (Kingdom of God) and falling to the material universe.

 

 

...

 

"Their idea that the soul originates from the Brahmajoyti is due to the long association they have had within many fleeting bodies within the temporary universe, being trapped within forgetfulness and sensual identity and association for so, so long, that they have forgotten their original form, identity, personality individuality and selfless devotional love in their eternal relationship with Me as you, Narada, have just done. Even a great devotee like you should never underestimate the power of My 1Maya (forgetfulness and illusion)” if you first choose to go into her association by ‘consciously’ entering the mahat-tattva!" - Pradyumna Swami

 

This is a distorted version of a story in the Visnu purana.

[theist 1]

 

Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.295

 

seva sadhaka rupena siddha rupena catra hi |

tad bhava lipsuna karya vraja lokanusratah ||

 

Translation: Following after the inhabitants of Vraja, one should perform service in one's physical body and in one's siddha body, with a desire for a particular bhava.

 

Jiva Goswami's Commentary

 

Sadhaka-rupa refers to the physical body of the practitioner of sadhana bhakti. Siddha rupa refers to the body which is suitable for one's desired service, and which has been developed by internal meditation.

 

--------------------------

 

MURALIDHAR NOTE: The siddha rupa arises from within the consciousness of the sadhana-bhakta. When a bhakta has a pure desire to offer a flower with a pure, beautiful child's hand which is like the hand of the Vrajabasi group leader that one is following (Rupa Manjari etc), then the consciousness of having a pure spiritual hand will emerge from within one's consciousness, naturally. In this way, the whole of the siddha rupa will become manifest through the power of pure devotion manifesting through the grace of Guru and Sri Radha Govinda in the pure consciousness of a bhakta.

 

Herein lies the crux of the matter I believe. Developed or realized...I hear a difference. Developed could easily be a point for the Brahman origin side of the debate.

[theist 1]

Developed or realized. Just shows me how one word can pivot the meaning. All I can say for sure on this issue is...maybe. Just maybe. If Krsna ever reveals to me then I will understand but until then maybe will have to do.

[Guest guest]

 

Developed or realized. Just shows me how one word can pivot the meaning. All I can say for sure on this issue is...maybe. Just maybe. If Krsna every reveals to me then I will understand but until then maybe will have to do.

 

 

This is Bhanu Swami of ISKCON's translation.

 

In fact I know of numerous statements in shastra that say we can change our spiritual form from one state to another. Starting off as "the formless light of pur consciousness" or brahman, we can develop a specific spiritual form.

 

Vedanta Sutra verse 4.4.10

Abhavam baadariraha hyevam

Translation: A liberated soul who has attained Brahmaloka can exist with or without a body according to his liking.

 

 

and aside from this, there are numerous statements in shastra about the associates of Narayana such as Sudarshan who sometimes manifest in human form or at other times as a weapon.

 

In fact this topic is dealt with in detail by Sanatan Goswami himself in Brhadbhagavatamrtam in the section about Vaikuntha.

[theist 1]

Murali, Isn't there a danger in the study of the Upanishads and Vedanta Sutra in that the language is often seemingly impersonal in tone? Should beginner Vaisnavas such as most of us?

 

 

For me SB is as close to Vedanta Sutra as I need to venture in this lifetime.

[Guest guest]

 

Murali, Isn't there a danger in the study of the Upanishads and Vedanta Sutra in that the language is often seemingly impersonal in tone? Should beginner Vaisnavas such as most of us?

 

 

For me SB is as close to Vedanta Sutra as I need to venture in this lifetime.

 

The Vaisnava Acaryas recommend that nobody should believe the commentaries of Sankaracarya and his followers on Vedanta Sutra. However at the start of Bhagavad Gita As It Is you see that the book is dedicated to Baladeva Vidyabhusana, who wrote the Govinda Bhasya commentary to Vedanta. I have two English translations of Govinda Bhasya. One of the translations is by Bhakti Caitanya Swami of ISKCON

[theist 1]

 

The Vaisnava Acaryas recommend that nobody should believe the commentaries of Sankaracarya and his followers on Vedanta Sutra. However at the start of Bhagavad Gita As It Is you see that the book is dedicated to Baladeva Vidyabhusana, who wrote the Govinda Bhasya commentary to Vedanta. I have two English translations of Govinda Bhasya. One of the translations is by Bhakti Caitanya Swami of ISKCON

 

Oh Govinda Bhasya translated. That would be a different thing. I didn't even know such a translation was available. I'm out here on the outermost ring and am often the last to know. It's probably been out there for years.

[Guest guest]

 

Question posted two days ago, but still not answered...

 

I spoke to Pradyumna Swami last night who is in Vrndavana and he said quoting Srila Prabhupada is more important that quoting any other Vedic text. Prabhupada said he has given us everything.

 

70-04-25. Letter: Jagadisa

Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? the souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. but those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.

 

Srila Prabhupada: - the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. but his relationship with krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the lord which is his original or constitutional position. the relationship of the living entity with krsna is eternal as both krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new

 

Also Pradyumna pointed out to me the following.

 

advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam

 

ādyaḿ purāṇa-puruṣaḿ nava-yauvanaḿ ca

 

vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma-bhaktau

 

govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

 

TRANSLATION

 

I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is inaccessible to the Vedas, but obtainable by pure unalloyed devotion of the soul, who is without a second, who is not subject to decay, is without a beginning, whose form is endless, who is the beginning, and the eternal puruṣa; yet He is a person possessing the beauty of blooming youth.

 

PURPORT

 

In the transcendental realm there is no past and future but only the unalloyed and immutable present time. In the transcendental sphere there is no distinction between the object and its qualities and no such identity as is found in the limited mundane region. Hence those qualities that seem to be apparently contradictory in the light of mundane conception limited by time and space, exist in agreeable and dainty concordance in the spiritual realm. How can the jīva realize such unprecedented existence? The limited intellectual function of the jīva is always contaminated by the influence of time and space and is, therefore, not in a position to shake off this limitedness. If the potency of cognitive function does not extend to the realization of the transcendental, what else can? In reply. Brahmā says that the transcendental Absolute is beyond the reach of the Vedas. The Vedas originate in sound and sound originates in the mundane ether. So the Vedas cannot present before us a direct view of the transcendental world (Goloka). It is only when the Vedas are imbued with the cit potency that they are enabled to deal with the transcendental. But Goloka reveals itself to every jīva-soul when he is under the influence of the spiritual cognitive potency joined to the essence of ecstatic energy. The ecstatic function of devotion is boundless and is surcharged with unalloyed transcendental knowledge. That knowledge reveals goloka-tattva (the principle of the highest transcendental) in unison with devotion, without asserting itself separately but as a subsidiary to unalloyed devotion.

 

This is in response to: -

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintly

 

Also when it is said there is no past and future in Vaikuntha, it means no measurement of time like the material universe, everything exists in the eternal present that distinguishes mundane material time in the mahat-tattva from the perpetual lila's going on in Goloka or Vaikuntha. What Venu Gopal said is not wrong, it is misunderstood.

 

This is plainly wrong.

 

The past and future do exist in Goloka. I was just reading Brhadbhagavatamrtam to my son before he went to sleep, reading how the Gopis are waiting and praying for that beautiful future moment when they would see Krishna on the path coming back from the forest.

 

"In the transcendental realm there is no past and future but only the unalloyed and immutable present time. In the transcendental sphere there is no distinction between the object and its qualities and no such identity as is found in the limited mundane region" - BRAHMA SAMHITA TEXT 33 - PURPORT

[Guest guest]

 

I spoke to Pradyumna Swami last night who is in Vrndavana and he said quoting Srila Prabhupada is more important that quoting any other Vedic text. Prabhupada said he has given us everything.

 

 

 

I spoke to Osama bin Laden on the telephone last night and he said Mohammed has given us everything. No need for any sadhus or shastra anymore. Just follow the prophet.

[Guest guest]

 

Krsna book chapter 89

 

(Mahavisnu meets with Krsna and Arjuna)

 

"My dear Krsna and Arjuna, I was very anxious to see you both, and therefore I arranged to take away the babies of the brahmana and keep them here. I have been expecting to see you both at this palace. You have appeared in the material world as My incarnations in order to minimize the force of the demoniac persons who burden the world. Now after killing all these unwanted demons, you will please again come back to Me. Both of you are incarnations of the great sage Nara-Narayana. Although you are both complete in yourselves, to protect the devotees and to annihilate the demons and especially to establish religious principles in the world so that peace and tranquillity may continue, you are teaching the basic principles of factual religion so that the people of the world may follow you and thereby be peaceful and prosperous."

 

Lord Narayana says he has been "expecting" to see Krsna and Arjuna.

 

He was waiting, while events on Earth unfolded.

 

First thing to happen, Nayarana in Vaikuntha arranged to take away the babies of the brahmana living on Earth.

 

Secondly, Narayana waits for Krishna to come from the material world along with Arjuna.

 

Third thing to happen, they all meet and talk together.

 

The past and future do exist in the spiritual world and events in the spiritual world are progressing simultaneous with events on Earth.

 

Show me the quotes from shastra that say otherwise.

[Guest guest]

 

"In the transcendental realm there is no past and future but only the unalloyed and immutable present time. In the transcendental sphere there is no distinction between the object and its qualities and no such identity as is found in the limited mundane region" - BRAHMA SAMHITA TEXT 33 - PURPORT

 

I just noticed this quote you presented. I had missed it previously as it was not highlighted.

 

When we read the statement in it's full context we get a rather different idea that what we get if we read a line out of context.

 

 

His (Krishna's) graceful threefold-bending form with flute in hand, possesses eternal blooming youth and is above all unwholesomeness that is to be found in limited time and space. In the transcendental realm there is no past and future but only the unalloyed and immutable present time. In the transcendental sphere there is no distinction between the object and its qualities and no such identity as is found in the limited mundane region. Hence those qualities that seem to be apparently contradictory in the light of mundane conception limited by time and space, exist in agreeable and dainty concordance in the spiritual realm. How can the jiva realize such unprecedented existence? The limited intellectual function of the jiva is always contaminated by the influence of time and space and is, therefore, not in a position to shake off this limitedness. If the potency of cognitive function does not extend to the realization of the transcendental, what else can? In reply. Brahma says that the transcendental Absolute is beyond the reach of the Vedas. The Vedas originate in sound and sound originates in the mundane ether. So the Vedas cannot present before us a direct view of the transcendental world (Goloka). It is only when the Vedas are imbued with the cit potency that they are enabled to deal with the transcendental. But Goloka reveals itself to every jiva-soul when he is under the influence of the spiritual cognitive potency joined to the essence of ecstatic energy. The ecstatic function of devotion is boundless and is surcharged with unalloyed transcendental knowledge. That knowledge reveals goloka-tattva (the principle of the highest transcendental) in unison with devotion, without asserting itself separately but as a subsidiary to unalloyed devotion.

 

 

Srila Saraswati THakur is making a distinction between mundane time and "pastimes" in the spiritual world. What does the word "pastime" mean except that it means the Lord is passing his time doing things?

[Guest guest]

Ooops..

 

In my cut and paste I missed the section about PASTIMES:

 

Srila Saraswati Thakur:

"Though He indulges in exhibiting the pastimes of births, etc., still He is without a beginning. Though He disappears after the pastimes of His appearance, still He is eternal. "

 

 

 

advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam

adyam purana-purusham nava-yauvanam ca

vedeshu durlabham adurlabham atma-bhaktau

govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is inaccessible to the Vedas, but obtainable by pure unalloyed devotion of the soul, who is without a second, who is not subject to decay, is without a beginning, whose form is endless, who is the beginning, and the eternal purusha; yet He is a person possessing the beauty of blooming youth.

 

PURPORT

 

Advaita means "indivisible truth who is knowledge absolute." Brahman, the infinite, emanates from Him as His effulgence and God-immanent (Paramatma) as His constituent; but nevertheless He remains one and indivisible. Acyuta means that though myriads of avataras emanate from Him as subjective portions and millions of jivas as separated spiritual particles, still He remains intact as the undivided whole of fullest perfection. Though He indulges in exhibiting the pastimes of births, etc., still He is without a beginning. Though He disappears after the pastimes of His appearance, still He is eternal. Though without origin, yet He is with an origin in His pastime of appearance; and although eternal in essence, He is still a person in the full bloom of youth. The sum and substance of it is that though He possesses diverse and apparently mutually contradictory qualities, still they are in universal harmonious concordance by dint of His unthinkable potency. This is what is meant by cid-dharma (transcendental nature) as distinguished from the material. His graceful threefold-bending form with flute in hand, possesses eternal blooming youth and is above all unwholesomeness that is to be found in limited time and space. In the transcendental realm there is no past and future but only the unalloyed and immutable present time. In the transcendental sphere there is no distinction between the object and its qualities and no such identity as is found in the limited mundane region. Hence those qualities that seem to be apparently contradictory in the light of mundane conception limited by time and space, exist in agreeable and dainty concordance in the spiritual realm. How can the jiva realize such unprecedented existence? The limited intellectual function of the jiva is always contaminated by the influence of time and space and is, therefore, not in a position to shake off this limitedness. If the potency of cognitive function does not extend to the realization of the transcendental, what else can? In reply. Brahma says that the transcendental Absolute is beyond the reach of the Vedas. The Vedas originate in sound and sound originates in the mundane ether. So the Vedas cannot present before us a direct view of the transcendental world (Goloka). It is only when the Vedas are imbued with the cit potency that they are enabled to deal with the transcendental. But Goloka reveals itself to every jiva-soul when he is under the influence of the spiritual cognitive potency joined to the essence of ecstatic energy. The ecstatic function of devotion is boundless and is surcharged with unalloyed transcendental knowledge. That knowledge reveals goloka-tattva (the principle of the highest transcendental) in unison with devotion, without asserting itself separately but as a subsidiary to unalloyed devotion.

[Guest guest]

 

I spoke to Osama bin Laden on the telephone last night and he said Mohammed has given us everything. No need for any sadhus or shastra anymore. Just follow the prophet.

 

What an absurd comment

 

Once there was an old man and a young boy who were travelling with a donkey. The young man was leading the donkey and the old man was riding on the donkey. When they passed through a small village, some of the townspeople yelled abuse, "Look at this old man taking advantage of this poor young boy! What a rascal!" After they had passed through the village, the old man said, "We had better swap over, otherwise they will abuse us in the next village." So then they swapped with the old man leading and the young boy riding. But in the next village also they got criticized, "Look at this selfish boy, taking advantage of his grandfather. He should let the old man ride on the donkey." So then they both got off and led the donkey, but in the next village the people yelled out, "Look at these two stupid people! They have a donkey, but they are choosing to walk instead!" Then the old man concluded. "Actually, it doesn't matter what you do or say, people will always be critical and find anyway.’

 

I’m no longer interested in this thread

[Guest guest]

It is easy to lose interest in this thread.

 

People do not respond when you ask "please show us a quote to show the jiva tattva originates from the antaranga shakti".

 

No quotes are given, even though we ask for the quotes again and again.

 

What Srila Prabhupada said according to time and place and circumstance, those things sometimes vary. One day he said souls come from Brahman, another day he says otherwise. So we need to examine what the previous Acharyas have said in this regard and there conclusions are clear.

 

Nobody falls from Vaikuntha except as a very temporary pastime.

 

Souls who have been in Maya for millions of lifetimes are not fallen nitya-siddha bhaktas. The idea that Krishna would abandon his bhaktas and let them live in pain for lifetime after lifetime is itself offensive.

[Guest guest]

 

The idea that Krishna would abandon his bhaktas and let them live in pain for lifetime after lifetime is itself offensive.

 

Yes. And that is why Krsna told Arjuna to declare it boldy. Just in case there are some who wouldn't believe Him, and/or perhaps to add special emphasis, he made sure that His pure devotee declared it, that His devotees will never perish. Ever.

[Guest guest]

40-1 The glories of Vaikuntha's residents, who are all beyond the material world of five elements, of Vaikunthaloka, and of Vaikuntha's hero, cannot be described with the examples drawn from the world of five elements.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that Vaikuntha's residents are eternal and full of knowledge and bliss. They cannot be described with examples drawn from the world of matter. The hero of Vaikuntha here is the Lord.

42-3 O brahmana, because you are a resident of the material world, and because your thoughts and vision are placed within the material world, I have used material examples so certain things may be easily understood. I pray that Lord Hari will forgive any offenses I have committed because of this.

44 The residents of Vaikuntha are all equal. Then again, among them there are gradations of higher and lower. There is no contradiction in this.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that although the residents of Vaikuntha have different powers and opulences, each, according to his own desire, employs all his powers and opulences in serving the Lord.

45 For them there is no envy nor any other fault. They have thousands of natural, eternal, transcendental virtues.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this is described by Lord Brahma in Srimad Bhagavatam 3.15.18-19.

46 Although in external vision they may be seen as materialists eager for material pleasure, the liberated souls worship their feet.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.15.17 and 3.15.20.

47 Although they never accept material forms, they do playfully manifest many wonderful forms appropriate for the Lord's pastimes.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that they do this to please the Lord.

48 Although they are different, they all have the same nature. That place, its many airplanes, and everything there, are all like that.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that in Vaikuntha everything is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss. Because everything there is spiritual, it is, in one sense, all one. Still, variety is manifested as a natural feature of the lord's pastimes. In this way everything there is simultaneously one and different.

49 Sometimes everything there seems made of gold and jewels, and sometimes they seem made of solidified moonlight.

50 With power given by the Lord, this place can be understood to a certain extent. It cannot be understood in any other way. The material mind has no power to grasp the truth of it.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that because it is spiritual, it cannot be understood by the material mind.

51 No one can understand it without having seen it. Only in this way can one properly describe it.

52 For they who see (Vaikuntha) the happiness of seeing the impersonal Brahman becomes very insignificant. It stops, as if it were embarrassed.

53-4 Self-satisfied impersonalists, whose desires are all fulfilled, and who have renounced everything, when they have the association of Vaishnavas give up everything they have learned and attained, and, understanding what is really valuable and what is worthless, enter the path of devotional service. I have personally seen this very clearly.

55 Seeing them coming and going, I thought: "If His servants are like this, what is the Lord like?"

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that Gopa-kumara saw that the servants of the Lord of Vaikuntha were glorious with handsomeness, opulences, powers and many other things. He wondered: "How glorious must be the person they serve!"

56-7 Dragged by joy, I stood and then I sat down as I waited by the gate. Then by the Lord's associates I was quickly brought inside. Then I saw a wonder of wonders. Even Lord Ananta with His thousands of mouths could not describe it in the time of Brahma's life.

58 There were gate after gate, and at each gate there were gatekeepers as before. Each time the gatekeepers informed their master and then allowed me to enter.

59-60 As I went to each gate I saw there was one leader to whom the gatekeepers bowed down. I thought this must be the Lord of the universes and I also bowed down to him and glorified him again and again.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this leader was the supervisor of the gatekeepers.

61 Then the Lord's affectionate associates described to me the Lord's uncommon features and taught me how to glorify and worship Him.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the gatekeepers described the Lord's Srivatsa mark and other features.

62-3 Passing through many very wonderful and colourful gates, I came to a very glorious palace, its feet served by many other palaces. This one palace was most excellent. It was flooded with glory. It was more splendid than millions of suns and moons. It charmed the eyes and the heart.

64-5 Inside I saw, far away, on a regal golden throne glistening with many jewels, happily sitting on a splendid white swan-cushion, handsome as a splendid moon, and His left elbow resting on a soft cushion, the supremely opulent and eternally youthful Lord of Vaikuntha...

66 ...who with His sweetly handsome limbs' glory, which eclipsed the glory of new clouds, decorated His ornaments of jewels and gold, His garments and His scented ointments...

67 ...whose splendid and broad four arms were decorated with bracelets and armlets, who wore two yellow silk garments, the circle of whose cheeks had beautiful earrings...

68 ...whose broad chest was decorated with the Kaustubha jewel, whose conchshell neck held a strand of pearls, the moon of whose face held the nectar of a charming smile, the lotus of whose eyes glittered with wonderful glances...

69 ...whose eyebrows danced with great mercy, to whom the goddess of fortune, appropriately staying at His left side, respectfully offered prayers, who took and chewed sublime betelnuts...

70 ...whose glorious laughter was illumined by a row of white jasmine-flower teeth breaking through the glory of the red bimba fruits of His lips, the waves of whose joking words charmed His devotees' hearts...

71 ...whom Goddess Dharani, holding a leaf in her hand, and splashing Him with waves of sidelong glances, worshipped again and again, whom the Sudarsana-cakra and other handsome weapons, bearing auspicious markings on their heads, served...

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that Goddess Dharani held a leaf to collect betelnuts after the Lord had chewed them. The Lord's club, conch, sword, and bow were among the weapons worshipping Him.

72 ...whom many servants glorious as the Lord and their hands splendid with camara wisks, fans, slippers and other beautiful paraphernalia, respectfully surrounded and served...

73 ...whom Sesa, Garuda, Visvaksena, and many other important associates, their folded palms placed on reverentially bowed heads, worshipped with wonderful words...

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 8.21.16-17.

74 ...whom Sri Narada worshipped with graceful artistry of wonderful singing, dancing, and vina music, who joked and laughed with His beloved Laksmi and Dharani...

75 ...and who, to fill with bliss the devotees whose hearts were fixed on Him alone, placed on them His splendid and wonderful lotus feet.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.8.26.

76 Filled with bliss by seeing Him and forgetting the instructions of the Lord's associates, I called out "O Gopala! O my life!" Shedding tears, I ran to embrace Him.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the Lord's associates had instructed him to offer prayers.

77 Held by some wise associates and standing behind the Lord, I piteously begged with many plaintive words, and then, overcome with love, I fainted unconscious in the Lord's presence.

78 They quickly picked me up and I regained consciousness. Tears blocked my eyes. Carefully wiping the tears with my hands, I opened my eyes.

79 Then I heard the most merciful and affectionate Lord, in a deep soft voice, say some words beginning with: "Be calm. Come, child, at once."

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that some of the other words the Lord spoke were: "Give up this awe and reverence. Come and talk with Me."

80 Then I attained the ultimate happiness. Again and again I danced as a man possessed. the Lord's associates carefully made me calm down.

81 Then, the Lord said: Welcome! Welcome! Child, it is so fortunate, so fortunate, that you are here with Me. For so long I have longed to see you.

82 Dear friend, somehow you passed many births without coming to see Me.

83 Hoping that in this, in this, in this, in this birth you would turn to Me, I danced as a fool.

84 Brother, I could not find a pretext to bring you to My abode and still protect the ancient rules of religion.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that had Gopa-kumara chanted the holy name, even as Ajamila and others had done, the Lord could have brought him to His abode.

85-6 Seeing that you had not attained My mercy, I became overcome with mercy for you. Ignoring the rules of karma, I gave you a birth on Govardhana Hill, My favourite place, and then, O dear friend, I became your guru, who was named Jayanta.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.7.42.

87 Today you have suddenly fulfilled my long-cherished desire. Please stay here always and make Me happy.

[Guest guest]

76 I saw glorious Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanat-kumara, and the fourth Sanatana.

77 They were being worshipped by other sages like themselves. They were happily conversing, but those like myself could not understand their words.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that a sample of their conversation is found in the Prayers by the Personified Vedas chapter of the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam.

78 Although they were not like the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, still, simply by seeing them I felt great happiness.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that they did not have four armed-forms, or supreme power and opulence, as the Lord does.

79 To see the Lord of the universes as I had before, I wandered among the sages fixed in meditation.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that, expecting to find the Supreme Lord, as he had found Him in Svargaloka and Maharloka, Gopa-kumara visited many places in Tapoloka. He did not find the Lord, but instead found only yogis living alone, hardly talking to each other, and rapt in meditation.

80 Not seeing Him anywhere, I asked the sages about Him. As I bowed before them and recited prayers, they did not even see me.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that he asked the sages: "Where is the Supreme Lord?"

81 Almost always situated in ecstatic trance, finding pleasure in the Supreme, all their desires fulfilled, and served by the mystic perfections, all were perfect celibate sages.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the words "almost always" mean that sometimes they would converse amongst themselves, and sometimes they would perform external worship of the Lord.

82 My great desire to see the Lord did not bear fruit. Indeed, it seemed to be checked by associating with the sages.

83 Because of seeing their great power, I stayed among them, and because of respect for my guru's words, and also because I had seen the results it brings, I did not abandon my chanting.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that Gopa-kumara's guru had ordered him: "Never abandon your chanting."

84 Because this place is naturally very pleasing to the heart, my chanting increased, and with that, my desire to see the Lord also increased.

85 Seeing that I desired to go to Nilacala and see Lord Jagannatha, Pippalayana Muni said to Me:

86 Why do you wish to leave this great place and go to another? Why would you go to see the Supreme Lord with your eyes?

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that here the sage implies that the Supreme Lord is beyond the perception of the eyes and other senses.

87 Fix your mind in meditation and you will always see Him everywhere, within and without, as if He were always before you.

88 In this way, and not in another way, the Supreme Self, Lord Vasudeva, whose form is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss, will always appear in your purified heart.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this way to see the Lord is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.3.23. Pippalayana Muni here implies that because the Supreme Lord is all-pervading and is manifest only by His own wish, He cannot be seen with the eyes or other senses.

89 Because one cannot actually see without the action of the mind, the action of seeing the Lord with one's eyes is only perfectly done when the mind is also fixed on Him.

90 The happiness of all the senses rests in the happiness of the mind, and the actions of the words, eyes, ears, and other senses also rest in the actions of the mind.

91 Without the action of the mind, the actions of all the senses are fruitless. When the mind does not act, one cannot experience anything.

92 If sometimes, out of love for His devotee, the Lord appears and is seen with the eyes, He is actually seen with the eye of transcendental knowledge, although one may think He is seen with the physical eyes.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that someone may protest: "Dhruva, Prahlad, and others saw the Lord with their eyes!" To answer, Pippalayana Muni speaks this verse. He asserts that the senses are helpless without the mind.

93 Or if, by the power of His mercy, He is seen by the external eyes, the bliss of seeing Him is felt in the mind.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the power of the Lord's mercy is described in the following words (of Srila Sridhara Svami):

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead has the form of sac-cid-ananda, transcendental bliss, knowledge and eternity. I offer my respectful obeisances unto He who turns the dumb into eloquent speakers and enables the lame to cross mountains. Such is the mercy of the Lord."*

94 After (He is no longer visible to the eyes) He still enjoys pastimes in the mind. The mind is the place where the happiness of seeing Him is felt.

95 By His mercy the happiness in the mind expands. The happiness in the senses has no power to expand in that way.

96 When one sees the Lord in meditation it is as if one sees Him directly. The demigod Brahma gives evidence for this special mercy of the Lord.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that, seen in meditation, the Lord grants benedictions, talks with the devotee, touches him, and relates to him in many ways. Lord Brahma's vision of the Lord is described in Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.9, 2.9.14, 2.9.17-18, 2.9.37, 3.8.22-23, 3.8.33, 3.9.29, and 3.9.29.

97 It is said that the direct sight of the Lord delights the devotees, but fills Kamsa, Duryodhana, and those like them with fear and a host of faults.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that anger and envy are examples of some of the faults here.

98-9 Even though they directly saw Lord Narayana's handsome, glorious, blissful form, which with its virtues delights all the senses, Madhu, Kaitabha, and a host of other sinful demons would not abandon their wickedness, which tormented everyone.

100 To show the glories of devotional service, the blissful Lord delights His devotees and hides that delight from others.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that as a fire's heat is concealed by smoke, so the Lord conceals from the demons the bliss of seeing Him. This verse is explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.1.18.

101 Of the nine ways of devotional service, remembering the Lord is the best, for it engages the mind, which is the best of the senses.

102 The mind is able, without stopping, and as much as it wishes, to give the Lord pure love, the most confidential of spiritual gifts.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that love for the Lord is more confidential than transcendental knowledge and renunciation. The word "avisramam" here means "without impediment".

103-5 Pure love, which is the goal to be attained by other spiritual practices, which is the best of the best of all goals of life, which is the only powerful way to bring the Supreme Lord under one's dominion, which is only attained by the Lord's mercy, which is the only treasure of the devotees, which is flooded with the sweetness of wonderful transcendental bliss, which is glorious beyond description, and which manifests the transformations of ecstasy, arises from the actions of the mind.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the other spiritual practices begin with transcendental knowledge and renunciation, and the goals of life are piety, sense gratification, economic development and liberation.

106-7 If you think meditation is difficult for the mind, or if you wish to see the Lord and thus make your eyes fruitful, then go to Bharata-varsa and on Gandha-madana Mountain see Lord Narayana, the friend of Nara.

108 Fixed in meditation, we see Him within and without. Therefore we never suffer separation from Him. That is why the Lord has gone there.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that someone may ask: "Why do the sages stay in Tapoloka if the Lord is not present? Someone may also ask: "How can the Lord who loves His devotees, leave that place and go somewhere else?" The answer is given in this verse.

109 As a very austere brahmacari archery-teacher with matter locks of hair, he stays there to benefit the world with His teachings.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the word "hita" means that His teachings brought auspiciousness to the people.

110 Seeing that I wished to go there, the four sages headed by Sanaka said to me: "Go there!" They showed me many forms of the Lord.

111 The first one became Lord Narayana. Another became the form of Vishnu. Another became the Lord of sacrifices. Another assumed many different forms.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the first one was perhaps Sanaka, or perhaps another of the Kumaras. The form of Lord Vishnu here was either Lord Upendra, whom Gopa-kumara had seen in Svargaloka or perhaps it was a form like His. The Lord of sacrifices is the Deity worshipped on Maharloka. The forms of Lord Nrsimha and Lord Vamana were among the many different forms.

112 Trembling with fear and bowing down, with folded hands I said to Them: "O Lords who love the poor, please forgive my horrible offenses."

113 They touched me on the head and I entered a trance of meditation and saw those forms again as before. Sometimes, by the power of meditation, I still see those forms as if They were right before my eyes.

114 As I chanted my mantra, I found happiness and faith. Then the sweetness of Vrajabhumi agitated my mind.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that by chanting he remembered Vrajabhumi and then became agitated with the suffering of separation from it.

115 Sometimes I experience a certain state like deep sleep, where I see many forms of the Lord. That state hinders my chanting.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the state described here is ecstatic trance (samadhi), where the mind and all the senses became inactive.

[Guest guest]

Even though ones original body can never fall down from Krishna’s perpetual Kingdom, it is possible, due to free will, one can enter a trance like insignificant (real but temporary) secondary consciousness called the jiva-bhutah lower self and forget that unique blissful nitya-siddha bodily form or higher self and ‘consciously fall’ (not as ones uninterrupted bodily form) to the nitya-baddha eternally conditioned state. This is similar to forgetting the biological body while sleeping and dreaming. In simple terms, the atma-vigraha body, or higher conscious awareness in the form of ones real bodily form serving Krishna in the Kingdom of God, is eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and can never fall down, where as the lower conscious self, manifested as a multiple dreaming bodily identities and forms within the material universe or mahat-tattva, is eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) and is always in that state.

 

Every living entities original individual bodily devotional form (marginal potency of the Lord) in Krishna's Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode.

 

This clearly means all of us have an eternal individual form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we maybe consciously unaware of this everlasting fact of creation due to our selfishness and egocentricity that create our independent dreaming secondary consciousness that is transferred to the material universe, or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of impermanent existence.

 

This is not difficult to understand if you chant the Hare Krishna Maha-mantra, the recommended sacrifice for this age of Kali-yuga.

 

The various Vedic texts tell us that the Kingdom of Krishna is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode, this means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha devotional selfless bodily form is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay, perish or disappear.

 

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasized, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe).

 

In a familiar way, when one is awake in their biological body, or when that body is asleep and one is dreaming, it is the same 'self' existing on two completely different levels of consciousness, one as the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies that appear real while they are dreaming. In a similar way, ones dreams or thoughts create a separate reality that is real but temporary (unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping) and only exists within the mahat-tattva cloud that is the creation of Maha-Vishnu. Ones consciousness is only transferred there when one is unaware (due to self centered desires) of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body).

 

A rudimentary illustration of this is when one is alert in their biological body, or when that body is sound asleep and dreaming, it is the matching 'self' that is active on two completely diverse echelon of awareness, one as the biological body, the other as hallucination or flights of the imagination that emerge as authentic and real while one is identifying with their biological dreaming thoughts. In a comparable way as previously explained, ‘ones dreams or thoughts from the absolute level create a separate reality that is real but temporary’. - Pradyumna Swami

[Guest guest]

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The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Fall From Goloka

 

 

 

 

The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1> of<st1> Krishna</st1></st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode, this means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe).

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

In a comparable way, whens ones dreams or thoughts are not <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition. This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary. In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed.

Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s.

There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1><st1>Krishna</st1></st1:place>.

To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) is extended to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body).

As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana.

[theist 1]

 

Even though ones original body can never fall down from Krishna’s perpetual Kingdom, it is possible, due to free will, one can enter a trance like insignificant (real but temporary) secondary consciousness called the jiva-bhutah lower self and forget that unique blissful nitya-siddha bodily form or higher self and ‘consciously fall’ (not as ones uninterrupted bodily form) to the nitya-baddha eternally conditioned state. This is similar to forgetting the biological body while sleeping and dreaming. In simple terms, the atma-vigraha body, or higher conscious awareness in the form of ones real bodily form serving Krishna in the Kingdom of God, is eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and can never fall down, where as the lower conscious self, manifested as a multiple dreaming bodily identities and forms within the material universe or mahat-tattva, is eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) and is always in that state.

 

Every living entities original individual bodily devotional form (marginal potency of the Lord) in Krishna's Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode.

 

 

I have noticed that no opponent to the position taken by Paramananda Puri has taken up this point with any logic to try to explain why it cannot be in their own words. Usually it's ignored or maybe a quote from someone is offered leading me to believe it is a perceived insurmountable point the opponents are fearful of tackling or they just don't understand it.

 

I understand it. It really is very simple if one is not threatened by it. That doesn't mean I accept because I can understand it nor do I reject it. It is a thoughtful proposition that should be dealt with with proper philosophical speculation and not just laughed off and called "stupid".

 

What is the response to this question from the 'origin in bramajyoti-vadis'?