Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

theist · March 28, 2007

Believe it? Well the truth is I don't believe it or disbelieve it. I am just not sure. Because I believe these scriptures were written in terms that we can wrap our minds around I don't take everything so literally although surely much should be and I am not sure where those lines are drawn.

I am not opposing you overall, just on the time issue which we agree to disagree on. For me the issue of origin remains a mystery, oter than we all come from Krsna.

March 28, 2007

I realized after writing "You don't have to believe this, but I do" that it might sound a bit like a Bible-thumping preacher saying "Accept this or you are damned". It wasn't my intention to sound "holier than thou".

theist · March 28, 2007

I realized after writing "You don't have to believe this, but I do" that it might sound a bit like a Bible-thumping preacher saying "Accept this or you are damned". It wasn't my intention to sound "holier than thou".

Murali,

It didn't in the least sound like that. I didn't hear any Bible thumping or anything remotely in that direction. We've had a nice converstaion.

haribol

March 28, 2007

For five days I have been asking you to provide a single quote from Scripture to support this bizarre notion that "jivatma-vigraha" transforms to become jiva-sakti.

Again I ask, where is the evidence in scripture to support your theory?

Just to inform you that the sanskrit word sakti means potency, influence, living force that is generared from the jivatma-vigraha. There is over 170 different meanings for the word jiva. The (jiva) sakti refers to the sakti or influence of the jiva, whether in the Vaikuntha's (as marginal servant) or the mahat-tattva (as marginal idependant self centered enjoyer).

The difference between the perishable universe and the imperishable Vaikuntha's is significant. When the jiva's sakti extends its influence to the mahat-tattva, that jiva-sakti is also known as the jiva-bhutah and can change to the dormant jiva-nikaya. The sakti of the jiva can also be extended consciousness that becomes contained in the mahat-tattva in ethereal and biological bodies. Here are some of the meaninings of the word jiva

jīva-bhūtām — comprising the living entities; BG 7.5

jīva-loke — in the world of conditional life; BG 15.7

jīva-bhūtaḥ — the conditioned living entity; BG 15.7

jīva-lokasya — of the conditioned living beings; SB 1.7.24

jīva — living being; SB 1.10.22

jīva-lokam — human society; SB 1.16.22

jīva — we wish you life for; SB 1.18.11

jīva — living entities; SB 2.7.12

jīva-haraṇam — killing a living being; SB 2.7.27

jīva — the living entity; SB 3.7.41

jīva-yoniṣu — in different species of life; SB 3.9.19

jīva-lokasya — of the planets inhabited by the living entities; SB 3.10.9

jīva-dhānīm — the resting place for all living entities; SB 3.13.30

jīva-nikāya — resting place of conditioned souls; SB 3.20.16

jīva-saṃjñitāt — from the jīva soul; SB 3.28.41

jīva-lokasya — for the people in general; SB 3.29.3

jīva — of the living entities; SB 3.29.34

jīva — of the jīva souls; SB 3.31.16

jīva-bhūtena — possessed by the living entity; SB 3.31.43

jīva-gatim — the true nature of the living entity; SB 3.31.47

jīva — of the jīva soul; SB 3.33.26

jīva — may you live long; SB 4.9.46

jīva-nirmuktaḥ — freed from the subtle body also; SB 4.11.14

jīva-kośam — the covering of the spirit soul; SB 4.22.26

jīva-kośam — encagement of the living entity; SB 4.23.11

jīva-saṃjñitāt — living entities called by the name jīvas; SB 4.24.28

jīva-sańghān — groups of animals; SB 4.25.7

jīva-lokaḥ — the conditioned soul in the material world; SB 4.29.41

jīva-ātmā — the individual spirit soul; SB 4.29.1a-2a

jīva — of living entities; SB 5.1.27

jīva-loka-bhava-adhvā — the path of material existence of the conditioned soul; SB 5.13.26

jīva-lokaḥ — the conditioned living entity; SB 5.14.1

vigata-jīva-lakṣaṇaḥ — bereft of all signs of life; SB 5.14.16

sarva-jīva-nikāyānām — of all groups of living entities; SB 5.20.46

sarva-jīva-nivaha — of the total living entities; SB 5.22.9

aśeṣa-jīva-nikāyānām — of unlimited numbers of living entities; SB 5.24.19

jīva-bhūta-ātma-bhūte — who is the life and the Supersoul; SB 5.24.19

sakala-jīva-nikāya — of all the masses of living entities; SB 5.26.40

jīva-lokasya — of this material world; SB 6.3.4

jīva-saṃjñam — the designation of the spiritual living being who is bound by different results of activity; SB 6.5.11

jīva-nikāyānām — of the hordes of living entities; SB 6.9.42

jīva-ātman — O living entity; SB 6.16.2

jīva-sthānāni — the living entity's different conditions of existence; SB 6.16.53-54

jīva-patim — a husband with a long duration of life; SB 6.19.25

jīva-sutā — a woman whose child has a long duration of life; SB 6.19.26-28

jīva-lokasya — of this material world; SB 7.3.31

jīva-saṃjñitaḥ — who is also known as the living entity, since the living entities are expansions of His marginal energy; SB 7.7.49

jīva-rāśibhiḥ — by millions and millions of living entities; SB 7.14.36

jīva-ātma — living entities; SB 7.14.36

jīva-yuktam — with all the living entities; SB 8.20.22

jīva-ātmā — the living entity; SB 8.22.25

jīva — living entities; SB 9.4.56

jīva-mayam — full of living entities; SB 9.9.23-24

jīva — maintaining life; SB 9.21.13

jīva jīva iti — O living entity, be alive; SB 9.22.8

akhila-jīva-marmaṇi — in every center of her vitality; SB 10.6.11

jīva-kāla — the duration of life of all living entities; SB 10.8.37-39

jīva-sāmyam gataḥ — when he understands that the position is the same for everyone; SB 10.10.14

jīva — living beings; SB 10.40.15

jīva — of living entities; SB 10.40.23

jīva-kośāḥ — the subtle covering of the soul (false ego); SB 10.82.47

jīva — of the individual soul; SB 10.84.26

jīva — of all living entities; SB 10.84.50

jīva — and of the living entities; SB 10.87.50

jīva — the individual living beings; SB 11.6.15

jīva — of the living entity; SB 11.12.24

jīva — living entities; SB 11.14.17

jīva-vinirmuktaḥ — freed from the subtle conditioning of material consciousness; SB 11.25.36

jīva-yonyā — from the cause of material life, false identification; SB 11.26.2

jīva-mandiram — of the Deity, who is the shelter of all living entities; SB 11.27.13

jīva-kalām — the Personality of Godhead, from whom all living entities expand; SB 11.27.23

jīva-vṛttiṣu — within the functions of the living entities; SB 12.7.19

jīva — may you live; SB 12.8.1

śrī-jīva — Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī; CC Adi 1.36

jīva — the fallen living entities; CC Adi 2.22

jīva-rūpa — the living beings; CC Adi 2.36

jīva — living beings; CC Adi 2.44

jīva — of the living entity; CC Adi 2.47

jīva — of the living entity; CC Adi 2.51

jīva-śakti — the energy of the living entity; CC Adi 2.103

jīva-gosāñi — Jīva Gosvāmī; CC Adi 3.80

jīva — the living entity; CC Adi 5.45

jīva-rūpa — the living entities; CC Adi 5.65

jīva — the living entities; CC Adi 6.28

jīva-kīṭa — a living being who is just like a worm; CC Adi 6.36

jīva-tattva — the truth of the living entities; CC Adi 7.117

jīva-bhūtām — they are the living entities; CC Adi 7.118

jīva-tattva — the living entities; CC Adi 7.120

śrī-jīva — Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī; CC Adi 9.4

jīva — living entities; CC Adi 10.42

jīva — the living entities; CC Adi 10.42

jīva — Jīva; CC Adi 10.85

śrī-jīva paṇḍita — Śrī Jīva Paṇḍita; CC Adi 11.44

jīva — living entity; CC Adi 13.44

jīva-mātra — of any living entity; CC Adi 17.156

śrī-jīva-caraṇa — the lotus feet of Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī; CC Adi 17.336

śrī-jīva-gosāñi — Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī Prabhupāda; CC Madhya 1.42

jīva-gaṇa — living entities; CC Madhya 1.267

jīva-śakti — the living entities; CC Madhya 6.160

jīva-rūpa — the identity of the living entity; CC Madhya 6.163

jīva-bhūtām — existing as the living entities; CC Madhya 6.165

jīva-hetu — for the enlightenment of the conditioned soul; CC Madhya 6.175

jīva-śakti — marginal potency, or living entities; CC Madhya 8.151

jīva — a living entity; CC Madhya 8.185

jīva — the living entity; CC Madhya 8.237

jīva — living entity; CC Madhya 8.249

jīva — the living entity; CC Madhya 8.252

āmi jīva — I am an ordinary living being; CC Madhya 9.125

jīva — an ordinary living being; CC Madhya 9.157

jīva — conditioned soul; CC Madhya 10.13

jīva — living entity; CC Madhya 10.168

jīva — the living entity; CC Madhya 10.168

jīva-rathī — the living entity on the chariot; CC Madhya 11.37

kṣudra-jīva — insignificant living entity; CC Madhya 12.27

kṣudra jīva — insignificant living being; CC Madhya 15.243

jīva — the living entity; CC Madhya 15.276

ei jīva — this conditioned living entity; CC Madhya 16.184

jīva — living entity; CC Madhya 17.77

śrī-jīva-gosāñi — Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī; CC Madhya 18.50

jīva-adhame — fallen conditioned souls; CC Madhya 18.111

cit-kaṇa jīva — a small fragmental living being; CC Madhya 18.112

jīva — a living being; CC Madhya 18.113

jīva — the living entity; CC Madhya 18.115

jīva-mati — considering an ordinary living being; CC Madhya 18.117

jīva hañā — being a conditioned soul; CC Madhya 18.224

jīva — living entities; CC Madhya 19.25

jīva-gaṇa — living entities; CC Madhya 19.138

jīva — living being; CC Madhya 19.151

jīva-hiṃsana — unnecessarily killing animals or the soul; CC Madhya 19.159

jīva-śakti — spiritual sparks, living entities; CC Madhya 20.111

jīva-bhūtām — they are the living entities; CC Madhya 20.116

sei jīva — that living entity; CC Madhya 20.117

jīva — living entity; CC Madhya 20.120

jīva-śakti — marginal potency; CC Madhya 20.149

jīva-rūpa — having the form of the sparklike living entities, who are parts and parcels; CC Madhya 20.273

jīva-uttama — the best of the living entities; CC Madhya 20.302

jīva — living entity; CC Madhya 20.305

jīva-tattva nahe — still he is not called jīva-tattva; CC Madhya 20.308

jīva — living entity; CC Madhya 20.351

jīva-rūpa — as the living entity; CC Madhya 20.369

jīva — a living entity; CC Madhya 21.8

jīva — the conditioned living entities; CC Madhya 21.53

jīva — the living entities; CC Madhya 22.9

jīva — the living entity; CC Madhya 22.10

jīva — the living entity; CC Madhya 22.24

sei jīva — that living entity; CC Madhya 23.9

jīva-cañcale — where everyone is disturbed; CC Madhya 24.184

jīva — living entities; CC Madhya 24.186

jīva — the living entities; CC Madhya 24.200

ei jīva — these living entities; CC Madhya 24.203

ardha-mārā jīva — half-killed living beings; CC Madhya 24.243

jīva pāya vyathā — the living beings suffer too much pain; CC Madhya 24.249

jīva māra — your occupation is to kill animals; CC Madhya 24.250

kṣetra-jña jīva — the living entity who knows about his body; CC Madhya 24.307

jīva — a living entity; CC Madhya 25.78

āmi jīva — I am an insignificant living being; CC Madhya 25.91

jīva — living being; CC Madhya 25.92

jīva — the living entity; CC Madhya 25.104

jīva — a living being; CC Madhya 25.106

jīva nistārite — to deliver all the fallen souls; CC Madhya 25.264

raghunātha-jīva — of Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, Raghunātha Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī and Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī; CC Madhya 25.281

śrī-jīva — Śrī Jīva; CC Antya 1.3-4

jīva-dehe — in the body of such a living entity; CC Antya 2.13

jīva — the ordinary living being; CC Antya 2.99

kṣudra-jīva — poor living entities; CC Antya 2.120

bahu-jīva — many living entities; CC Antya 3.67

jīva lāgi' — for all living entities; CC Antya 3.74

saba jīva — all living entities; CC Antya 3.77

jīva-śūnya — devoid of living entities; CC Antya 3.77

jīva-jāti — species of living entities; CC Antya 3.78-79

sei jīva — such living entities; CC Antya 3.80

brahma-ādi jīva — all living entities, beginning from Lord Brahmā; CC Antya 3.251

saba jīva — all living entities; CC Antya 3.254

jīva — living entity; CC Antya 3.255

kṣudra-jīva hañā — being a very insignificant living entity; CC Antya 3.270

jīva-gosāñi — Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī; CC Antya 4.227

jīva-gosāñi — Śrīpāda Jīva Gosvāmī; CC Antya 4.232

kṣudra jīva — an insignificant living entity; CC Antya 5.26

kṣudra jīva — an ordinary living entity; CC Antya 5.119

kṣudra jīva — the little conditioned soul; CC Antya 5.126

jīva-adhama — the lowest of all living beings; CC Antya 6.128

jīva — the living entity; CC Antya 7.103

ajña jīva — the ignorant living entity; CC Antya 7.119

ajña jīva — a foolish living being; CC Antya 7.126

jīva — Jīva Gosvāmī; CC Antya 11.9

jīva — a living entity; CC Antya 17.65

jīva — a living entity; CC Antya 18.21

jīva hañā — being an ordinary living entity; CC Antya 18.23

jīva-rakṣā-auṣadhiḥ — Kṛṣṇa, who is the medicine that can save one's life; CC Antya 19.35

jīva-abhimāna — conception as a conditioned soul; CC Antya 20.31

jīva — living being; CC Antya 20.71

jīva hañā — being an ordinary living entity; CC Antya 20.80

ati-kṣudra jīva — a very insignificant living being; CC Antya 20.90-91

śrī-jīva-caraṇa — the lotus feet of Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī; CC Antya 20.96-98

śrī-jīva-caraṇa — the lotus feet of Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī; CC Antya 20.144-146

jīva-ātmā — the jīvas; Bs 5.20

March 28, 2007

Just to inform you that the sanskrit word sakti means potency, influence, living force that is generared from the jivatma-vigraha. There is over 170 different meanings for the word jiva. The (jiva) sakti refers to the sakti or influence of the jiva, whether in the Vaikuntha's (as marginal servant) or the mahat-tattva (as marginal idependant self centered enjoyer).

Friend, you should find a genuine Guru who can teach you the philosophy and religion of Sri Chaitanyadeva. It is not that the term "jiva-shakti" means shakti generated from the jivatma. If someone has told you this is what jiva-shakti means then you should stop listening to them and find a real sadhu who can teach you the Truth.

The term jiva-shakti indicates one of the three primary potencies of Bhagavan, as described in the verse below which was spoken by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. It is Mahaprabhu himself who has given this meaning to the words "jiva-shakti".

Please, do yourself and others a favour and stop speaking about things you don't understand. Read Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta 5 times from start to finish and avoid quarrels with people debating topics you don't understand.

====================

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 6.160

antarańgā — cic-chakti, taṭasthā — jīva-śakti

bahirańgā — māyā, — tine kare prema-bhakti

SYNONYMS

antarańgā — the internal potency; cit-śakti — the spiritual potency; taṭasthā — the marginal potency; jīva-śakti — the living entities; bahirańgā — the external potency; māyā — the illusory energy; tine — all three of them; kare — do; prema-bhakti — devotional service in love.

TRANSLATION

"The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases — internal, marginal and external. These are all engaged in His devotional service in love.

PURPORT

The spiritual potency of the Lord is manifested in three phases — the internal or spiritual potency, the marginal potency, which consists of the living entities, and the external potency, known as māyā-śakti. We must understand that in each of these three phases the original spiritual potencies of pleasure, eternity and knowledge remain intact. When the potencies of spiritual pleasure and knowledge are both bestowed upon the conditioned souls, the conditioned souls can escape the clutches of the external potency, māyā, which acts as a cover obscuring one's spiritual identity. When freed, the living entity awakens to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and engages in devotional service with love and affection.

theist · March 28, 2007

Friend, you should find a genuine Guru who can teach you the philosophy and religion of Sri Chaitanyadeva. It is not that the term "jiva-shakti" means shakti generated from the jivatma. If someone has told you this is what jiva-shakti means then you should stop listening to them and find a real sadhu who can teach you the Truth.

The term jiva-shakti indicates one of the three primary potencies of Bhagavan, as described in the verse below which was spoken by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. It is Mahaprabhu himself who has given this meaning to the words "jiva-shakti".

Please, do yourself and others a favour and stop speaking about things you don't understand. Read Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta 5 times from start to finish and avoid quarrels with people debating topics you don't understand.

====================

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 6.160

antarańgā — cic-chakti, taṭasthā — jīva-śakti

bahirańgā — māyā, — tine kare prema-bhakti

SYNONYMS

antarańgā — the internal potency; cit-śakti — the spiritual potency; taṭasthā — the marginal potency; jīva-śakti — the living entities; bahirańgā — the external potency; māyā — the illusory energy; tine — all three of them; kare — do; prema-bhakti — devotional service in love.

TRANSLATION

"The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases — internal, marginal and external. These are all engaged in His devotional service in love.

PURPORT

The spiritual potency of the Lord is manifested in three phases — the internal or spiritual potency, the marginal potency, which consists of the living entities, and the external potency, known as māyā-śakti. We must understand that in each of these three phases the original spiritual potencies of pleasure, eternity and knowledge remain intact. When the potencies of spiritual pleasure and knowledge are both bestowed upon the conditioned souls, the conditioned souls can escape the clutches of the external potency, māyā, which acts as a cover obscuring one's spiritual identity. When freed, the living entity awakens to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and engages in devotional service with love and affection.

Visitor 3,

I disagree with your admonishment of guest108108. He has provided a large list of citations showing the different ways we can view jiva. You may disagree with his list or conclusion but to suggest he shouldn't speak to others about his thoughts on the matter is a little much. It is not our place to silence others unless they are being offensive or disruptive. Simple disagreement may be debated but censor?....never.

You are correct no doubt in the definition you have provided but is it the only angle we see can appreciate? I see another I think. Tell me if you accept this.

Yes Krsna's energies include jiva-sakti. We are generated from Him and our continued existence is at His pleasure. The nature of that jiva-shakti is an infinite number of individual spiritsouls. Each of those individual parts and parcels of Krsna has a minute amount of His sakti as part of their own constitution. A spark is certainly not a forest fire but it does have the same quality of heat and light as the forest fire only in minute degrees. That heat and light is it's shakti.

We must remember that we are part and parcel of Krsna. What He has we have (mostly) but in minute degrees and that includes shakti.

Please feel free to correct any misconceptions I am carrying here.

Hare Krsna

March 28, 2007

Just to inform you that the sanskrit word sakti means potency, influence, living force that is generared from the jivatma-vigraha. There is over 170 different meanings for the word jiva. The (jiva) sakti refers to the sakti or influence of the jiva, whether in the Vaikuntha's (as marginal servant) or the mahat-tattva (as marginal idependant self centered enjoyer).

The difference between the perishable universe and the imperishable Vaikuntha's is significant. When the jiva's sakti extends its influence to the mahat-tattva, that jiva-sakti is also known as the jiva-bhutah and can change to the dormant jiva-nikaya. The sakti of the jiva can also be extended consciousness that becomes contained in the mahat-tattva in ethereal and biological bodies. Here are some of the meaninings of the word jiva

Let me answer your statement, not with a mood that I want to defeat you for my ego gratification, but because you clearly are searching for truth while at the same time you have serious misconceptions about a number of key issues in the philosophy of Sri Chaitanyadeva. I am not an enemy to you, I really only want to explain what the scriptures really say, and Friend they are not saying what you think they are saying.

Firstly, jiva-shakti means the souls who are in the tatastha position. Jivas are neither part of the cit-shakti (antaranga shakti) or the maya-shakti (prakriti - see Gita 7.5), they are a third ontological category of beings. (cit-shakti, jiva-shakti, maya-shakti).

Secondly, the jiva is a living force. The jiva floats on the life airs within the heart in a living body, activating the body. If there is no jiva in a body then that body is a dead body. The self is conscious of sensations which arise from the bodily senses; furthermore, the self responds to sensations and moves the limbs of the body, engaging in physical activity that causes karma.

Third, you have written: "When the jiva's sakti extends its influence to the mahat-tattva" . However, the jiva does not extend any influence over the mahat-tattva, rather Prakriti extends an influence over the jiva (see Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.26.17 and the verses accompanying it for a detailed description of mahat-tattva, pradhana, prakriti and saguna brahman).

Fourth, you have written: "When the jiva's sakti extends its influence to the mahat-tattva, that jiva-sakti is also known as the jiva-bhutah and can change to the dormant jiva-nikaya." . I found a reference to jiva-nikaya, a term I am not familiar with, in Srimad Bhagavatam 3.20.16, where Srila Prabhupada says that the lotus which Brahma is born from is the jiva-nikaya, the "resting place of the dormant jivas". This phrase "resting place of the dormant jivas" is Prabhupada's translation of jīva-nikāya. You say the jiva can extend its influence and can change to the dormant jiva-nikaya. This statement is rather unintelligible to me. If you could clarify what you mean to say here it would help a lot. In the lotus stem the jivas are all inactive (dormant) and they don't exert any influence over anything at all. They are sleeping, in fact, and awaiting a new creation that will be engineered by a Brahma. The basic fact is that the jivas in the dormant state are inactive, as described in CC Antya 3.78-79

haridāsa bale, — "tomāra yāvat martye sthiti

tāvat sthāvara-jańgama, sarva jīva-jāti

saba mukta kari' tumi vaikuṇṭhe pāṭhāibā

sūkṣma-jīve punaḥ karme udbuddha karibā

Haridāsa said, "My Lord, as long as You are situated within the material world, You will send to the spiritual sky all the developed moving and nonmoving living entities in different species. Then again You will awaken the living entities who are not yet developed and engage them in activities.

Fifth, you wrote: "The sakti of the jiva can also be extended consciousness that becomes contained in the mahat-tattva in ethereal and biological bodies." Do you think the jiva in Vaikuntha is like a sun and he is sending his rays of control out into material bodies that are in Maya? This implies that the Self is situated in Vaikuntha but your body (jiva?) is in Maya. Or perhaps that the spiritual body or spiritual identity is in Vaikuntha and your self (jiva?) is in Maya. We would expect to see statements in scripture stating this to be a fact, if this really were the case. But the gita says the soul of a conditioned being is in the body, not in the spiritual sky.

Bhagavad-gita As It Is 13.34

yatha prakasayaty ekah

kritsnam lokam imam ravih

kshetram kshetri tatha kritsnam

prakasayati bharata

O son of Bharata, as the sun alone illuminates all this universe, so does the living entity, one within the body, illuminate the entire body by consciousness.

Further to this, here Srila Prabhupada's purport to this verse.

As the sun is situated in one place but is illuminating the whole universe, so a small particle of spirit soul, although situated in the heart of this body, is illuminating the whole body by consciousness. Thus consciousness is the proof of the presence of the soul, as sunshine or light is the proof of the presence of the sun. When the soul is present in the body, there is consciousness all over the body, and as soon as the soul has passed from the body there is no more consciousness. This can be easily understood by any intelligent man. Therefore consciousness is not a product of the combinations of matter. It is the symptom of the living entity. The consciousness of the living entity, although qualitatively one with the supreme consciousness, is not supreme, because the consciousness of one particular body does not share that of another body. But the Supersoul, which is situated in all bodies as the friend of the individual soul, is conscious of all bodies. That is the difference between supreme consciousness and individual consciousness.

The statement of Prabhupada here is quite explicit. We have all, I expect, read it a hundred times before. The soul of a conditioned being is in the heart, not in Vaikuntha.

You have previously presented the proposition that because our spiritual bodies are in Vaikuntha (or Goloka) permanently, we ourselves are in Vaikuntha permanently. But this also is a false conclusion, as the Acharyas have stated that the spiritual body is always together with the spirit-soul himself.

Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam, commentary to verse 2.2.207 by Sri Sanatana Goswami:

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Narayana, or Krishna. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare. Impersonalists generally imagine themselves perfect and liberated, and among them a very few may actually attain impersonal liberation. But those rare souls, like all others, are eternal servants of Hari, the all attractive Lord. Out of millions of such rare liberated impersonalists, one very fortunate soul may realize this natural fact. Since intelligence is dormant in the “merged” soul, it can be reawakened. Even the liberated souls who have merged into the formless divine light of the spiritual sky retain their eternal spiritual bodies, complete with spiritual mind and senses. Nothing, not even liberation, can ever deprive a jiva of these assets. The muktas worship Hari's most attractive attributes and glories with spiritual bodies. Such worship is not done with material bodies and senses. Consequently the muktas hear and chant with spiritual bodies and senses.

We are not in Vaikuntha now. Indeed we have never been there. However if we carefully study the Caitanya Caritamrta we will understand REALITY and find a way of attaining PERMANENT RESIDENCE in the Land of Sri Krishna.

The view you have presented about TIME is also not supported by statements in the scriptures. When Hiranyakasipu fell down from Vaikuntha there was a duration of time, a period of time, when he was no longer standing at the gates of Vaikuntha. This fact is stated in the scriptures.

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a REALIZED spiritual master, inquire from him and render service to him. The self realized soul can impart knowledge to you that you won't be able to understand through your lonesome reading of books, or through the reading of books in the company of people who are not spiritually advanced.

March 28, 2007

Srila Prabhupada further explains: -

“Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

"A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called Maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly." Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15

Only after many births confined to ethereal and biological containers or bodies within the mahat-tattva, does one eventually no longer desire to be ‘consciously extended’ to those bodies and contained in those impermanent vessels or bodies of suffering and despair within the smaller inconsequential mahat-tattva cloud or material manifestation. It is Impossible for such inactive consciousnesses to exist in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha domain (3/4 of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti) or within the active dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva.

It must be emphasized that such an inactive state of consciousness is generally only attained after first being consciously transferred (Not in ones original genuine Krishna Conscious body because ones perpetual bodily form never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha) to the mahat-tattva cloud and only then after being active in ethereal and biological bodies for millions of births and deaths, until one becomes fed-up with those impermanent decaying bodies supplied by Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva. Only then, while immersed deeply in forgetfulness of who’s one’s authentic perpetual bodily identity is outside the mahat-tattva, and the frustration with ethereal and biological vessels one has taken shelter of for so long, does one seek out the Impersonal solution. Such an inactive state of individual consciousness (jiva-nikaya) and its motionless quiescent place called the Impersonal Brahma-sayujya and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti can never exist in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti that takes up 3/4 of Krishna’s Creation. Such mysterious non-Krishna conscious impermanent realities exist only because of the mahat-tattva dark cloud that is created by Maha-Vishnu for those who do not wish to be with Krishna.

The ethereal and biological vessels are eternally part and parcel of the mahat-tattva and are only obtained after first entering the mahat-tattva (the impermanent material universal creation), which is a dark existent (real but temporary) impermanent cloud where the four-armed expansion of Balarama, (Krishna’s brother) the dreaming Maha-Vishnu, and His wife Maya Devi (an expansion of Lakshmi) resides and manages, as shown above. It also appears many scholars are getting Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavan/Vaikuntha permanent Spiritual sky mixed up with Maha-Vishnu’s impermanent mahat-tattva.

The biological body is a garment made up of billions of other embodied jiva-bhutah’s each at different stages of evolving from a single cell through to complex organs on their path of evolving back to the biological human form. To enter into the lower biological species in the first place, the embodied jiva-bhutah conscious had fallen (a further fall down) from the biological human platform. The biological human body is achieved (covers the ethereal vessel) after falling from the heavenly sub-space universe. The heavenly planets are achieved after one abandons their service to Krishna in the Goloka-Vrndavana, or Vishnu in the Vaikuntha’s, by consciously (not as their true bodily form and identity) leaves Vaikuntha and enters the mahat-tattva cloud as already explained..

Where there is life, then there is either an embodied jiva-bhutah moving those single celled biological organisms, or they may also be moved by Maha-Vishnu’s all-pervasive aspect. This happens all through the mahat-tattva, from Brahma down to the amoeba. In other words, if no embodied jiva-bhutah is available to fill those ‘posts’ within the mahat-tattva, then Maha-Vishnu expands Himself to ‘fill in the gaps’ in order to facilitate those few who have abandoned their service to Krishna by ‘consciously’ leaving their unique Krishna Conscious perpetual jivatma-vigraha body.

Due to that choice, the jiva-bhutah consciousness foolishly takes shelter within the mahat-tattva dark cloud. Within this dark cloud or material manifestation, there only exists the phenomenon of decay, impermanence and forgetfulness, even on the opulent heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva where one can live in an ethereal vessel for tens of thousands of years, which is the goal of Jews, Christians, Muslims and some schools of Buddhism, the heavenly planets are only temporary. These frustrating impermanent qualities do not exist outside the mahat-tattva in the surrounding Vaikuntha Planets. To achieve the mahat-tattva, one does not have to first forget Krishna, no, that is not possible in the Vaikuntha realm, forgetfulness only comes after entering the mahat-tattva.

One chooses to leave Krishna which simultaneously means they leave behind, in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, their perpetual unadulterated body that is their genuine self simply because they want to enjoy existence on their own terms without Krishna. This is only achieved through conscious projection or teleportation. (Many Vaishnava’s are not familiar with the many terminologies in this book however, if we are to correctly understand the origin of the jiva soul, then such terminologies are necessary for explaining that we all originate from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha)

Due to the perpetual nature of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha’s, ones original body is always there even if one has ‘consciously’ extend themselves to the mahat-tattva. For the purpose of allowing the choice’s of His marginal potency-jivatma-vigraha devotee’s, Krishna has created the mahat-tattva cloud via His Maha-Vishnu expansion. In this way, be it in the Vaikuntha’s or the mahat-tattva, Krishna is the only provider.

The biological bodily garments (8,400,000 of them) cover the ethereal vessel which contains or embodies the transmitted jiva-bhutah or jiva-sakti-secondary relocated consciousness. As already explained but needs to be emphasized, this transferred jiva-bhutah secondary consciousness originates from ones authentic perpetual bodily-self (nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha) that eternally exists in a loving servitor relationship with Krishna in either Vaikuntha or the more intimate Goloka-Vrndavana Kingdom of Radha, Krishna and Lord Chaitanya and their expansions and associates.

The extension of consciousness, transmitted from ones eternal Krishna Conscious body, or ones authentic, original and genuine bodily appearance, that is often referred to as the so-called marginal sparks or atoms in the effulgence, is only transferred (as a secondary self-centered consciousness) from ones perpetual bodily self to the containments of ethereal and biological vessels in the mahat-tattva (the dreams of Maha-Vishnu) when one wants to enjoy existence separately from Krishna. This choice is given to all marginal living entities in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (vigraha’s) because without it there can never be genuine love or service?

Always chant Hare Krishna for the purpose of always remembering Krishna and to further gradually reawaken ones ‘old dormant original’ Krishna Consciousness, then these seemingly inconceivable topics can easily be understood regardless if one is a fallen rascal who previously selfishly and insensitively exploited the material world around them due to the diseased conditioned of their biological vessel, caused by the individual embodied soul’s (life force or jiva-bhutah’s entrapment within ethereal and biological containments) accumulation and crushing build-up of an overwhelming avalanche of Karmic reactions!

Srila Prabhupada and Lord Chaitanya (the most merciful combination of Radha and Krishna) have come to save such delinquent souls from their accretion and devastating massive karmic backlog that is like an overpowering flood forcing one in the opposite direction to where they are trying to swim! Such souls have forgotten they have all been transferred as the jiva-bhutah consciousnesses that have emigrated to the mahat-tattva as a secondary consciousness that was originally transmitted from their authentic innovative perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form outside of the confines of ethereal and biological vessels. Such impermanent vessels are the part and parcels of the mahat-tattva. In this way one’s eternal consciousness does not belong to the mahat-tattva or the ethereal and biological vessels one is presently housed in.

Srila Prabhupada, the great pure devotee of Lord Chaitanya (the most merciful combination of Radha and Krishna) have come to save such delinquent souls and finally direct them back home back to Godhead.

The Kingdom of God (Krishna) is an Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional abode of unlimited pastimes that is forever lasting and never aging. Krishna’s marginal potency or energy are eternal servants known as the atma- (self)-jiva- (soul)-vigraha (unending form) transcendental body (the soul's real spiritual Krishna Conscious self and form). All marginal bodily individuals can never fall down to the material universe nevertheless; it does not mean one can never fall down from their perpetual bodily self.

How is this paradox possible when one can never fall down, yet also fall down?

How this happens is through a secondary conscious transformation that is activated when one no longer desires to be with Krishna. Such fall down is only ‘consciously’ feasible by means of a transformative capability made achievable by a secondary conscious version of the self that is transmitted from ones original authentic body and out of the Vaikuntha realm and the projected into the mahat-tattva cloud. Remember, during this transformation of consciousness, ones perpetual Krishna Conscious atma-jiva-vigraha body always remains in its original devotional position within the Vaikuntha’s or Goloka-Vrndavana and can ever never fall down. The secondary conscious lower self is transmitted as consciousness called the jiva-bhutah or jiva-sakti consciousness. This secondary consciousness is an extension of one’s real perpetual self and form that is eternally serving in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana and only manifests or comes into existence when one denies their original Krishna Consciousness.

When the light of Krishna Consciousness is there, this dark sub-conscious version of the self (jiva-bhutah) cannot exist however, when such dark consciousness does exist, one can longer see whom they really are serving Krishna.

As emphasized, one never falls down as their permanent devotional Krishna conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-jivatma-vigraha–bodily form. As soon as one desires to enjoy or take pleasure in their existence separately from Krishna, they are only sub-consciously transferred to the mahat-tattva or material impermanent manifestation where they can shape, carve out and choose their own ethereal and biological vessels and destiny that are all provided within the mahat-tattva by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu. In this way it must be clearly understood that ones secondary projected consciousness is the jiva-bhutah or jiva-sakti lower self, which is only activated when one no longer wants to serve Krishna in His perpetual Kingdom in their perpetual bodies in either Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana.

When we foolishly deny who we are as Krishna’s eternal servant, then struggle against our devotional inheritance or nature, uncertainty develops and cause our ‘now limited jiva-bhutah conscious awareness’ to become covered by ethereal and biological bodies or vessels that impound our consciousness (jiva-bhutah) within the restricted realms of the mahat-tattva. Eventually, after many births, we loose control over who we have imagined ourselves to be within the mahat-tattva. In our continual search for happiness; we frantically possess millions upon millions of different ethereal and biological bodily identities and personalities however, non of them gives us permanent pleasure because of the impermanent nature of the material universe or mahat-tattva..

The natural eternal constitutional position of ‘ones ‘authentic bodily self' (atma-jiva-vigraha Krishna Conscious bodily form) is forever engaged in an infinite number of pastimes and relationships serving Krishna. Nitya-siddha, or our eternal constitutional marginal condition of servitude or loving selfless unconditional devotion to Krishna, is the ultimate natural, original and perpetually nature of ones innovative active Krishna Conscious state. Such a Krishna Conscious condition is our genuine bodily form or self that is forever dedicated to devotional selfless service to Krishna and His pure devotees.

Our atma-jiva-vigraha perpetual Krishna Conscious body represents what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never decays or changes yet at the same time there are always unlimited transcendental changes and devotional adjustments going on within unlimited pastimes that are illimitable active in the present, beyond the concept of past and future, birth or death.

The Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (the supreme imperishable Kingdom of God) feature of the Spiritual Sky exists in the majority of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti (3/4 of the creation). It is a place where past and future does not exist because everything there is imperishable and exists always in the eternal present beyond our material understanding of time and space.

Only within a dark cloud (1/4 of creation) that is also existing in Spiritual Sky (Known as the mahat-tattva or material universe) does impermanence, past, present, future, birth, death, suffering, impermanence and forgetfulness exist and always moving in cycles, i.e., the cycle of birth and death, the cycle of Yugas or ages, the cycle of the climatic seasons etc. These qualities of decline and regeneration do not exist within the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm. Only within Lila-rasa or the mellows of ones personal pastime with Krishna, does eternal farsightedness exists in diverse behavioural ways of outward manifestations (relationships) and ‘seasons of seemingly change’ according to rasa (pastimes with Krishna and His devotees) that never needs regeneration because it never ages or fades.

The atma-jiva-vigraha devotee’s are sometimes referred to as marginal spiritual sparks and Krishna the Supreme Personality of Godhead however, both are distinct as individual Persons, atma-vigraha devotees or Purushas meaning “Individual Persons" with bodily form in the sense of a conscious spirit. Both God (Krishna) and the individual spirits (atma-jiva-vigraha devotee’s) are purushas, but Krishna is the Adi (Original, exemplary) Purusha, Parama (Highest) Purusha, and the Purushottama (Best of the Purushas or atma-vigraha bodily personalities), and Krishna the Supreme Atma-Vigraha or Purushas.

The finite atma-jiva-vigraha devotee’s are always subservant to Krishna or His various expansions including Maha-Vishnu who is the provider and facilitator of the material manifestation or mahat-tattva. Krishna is their provider in all aspects of existence even when they ‘consciously’ (or transmitted consciousness that is called the jiva-bhutah or jiva-sakti) choose to leave Vaikuntha and enter the material universe or mahat-tattva where Maha-Vishnu provides the ethereal and biological vessels that facilitates the jiva-bhutah’s or jiva-sakti’s non-Krishna conscious desires. In the Vedas and Puranas all Persons as their marginal identity are distinct individuals with a perpetual bodily form that is the authentic identity of the ‘so-called’ spiritual spark, so for Vaishnavas, it is not difficult to understand the eternal personal existence of the finite jivatmas (atma-vigraha devotee’s) in relationship to the infinite Deity Paramatma (Lord Krishna) is always personal and ones original constitutional position is an eternal bodily person eternally serving Krishna.

Such Lila’s or pastimes although, can change in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha feature of the Spiritual Universe in ways that can only be understood as one genuinely re-awakens their 'old' and original Krishna Conscious bodily identity and withdrawal their extended transmitted secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) from the confines of ethereal and biological vessels ensnared within the material universe (mahat-tattva). And even then, after withdrawing from the dream of Maha-Vishnu (the Over-Lord and facilitator of the mahat-tattva) and giving up the ethereal and biological containers at their root cause, which is the desire to enjoy separately from Krishna, can one again take up their original position in the Kingdom of God (Krishna).

Along these lines ones projected jiva-bhutah consciousness is eventually withdrawn or again re-established back as ones Krishna Conscious real self or atma-jiva-vigraha body as the dust of material desires are cleared from the mind and replaced with memories of ones real self serving Krishna. Even then, when re-established as ones real self, the ways of Krishna's devotional perpetual Kingdom will always be inconceivable and remain a mystery.

In other words, even though one has an original nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha or atma-jiva body, still the entire creation will remain a forever expanding creation, not with living entities (atma-jiva-vigraha devotees) for they have always been and there was never a time when they did not exist. The forever-expanding creation is due to the forever expanding pastimes of Krishna and His expansions that will always eternally remain a mystery.

Srila Prabhupada states in his teachings of Lord Chaitanya referring to the living entity (jiva-bhutah consciousness) entrapment in the material manifestation (mahat-tattva): -

‘The living entity is eternally part and parcel of God, when he is liberated from the impermanent material manifestation; he revives his original, eternal, part-and-parcel bodily identity. The realization of aham brahmasmi ("I am not this biological body") does not mean that the living entity loses his identity. At the present moment a person may consider himself to be matter, but in his liberated state he will understand that he is not matter but spirit soul, part of the infinite. To become Krishna conscious or spiritually conscious and to engage in the transcendental loving service of Krishna are signs of the liberated stage’.

Every living entity (Krishna’s marginal potency) has an original nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-atma-vigraha body they can realize if they remain Krishna Conscious, or can never realize when not Krishna Conscious. The meaning of these Sanskrit words are: -

Nitya-siddha - Everyone (all living entities or the marginal potency of Krishna) has a perpetual nitya-siddha higher self or Krishna conscious body that can never fall or leave Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

The fall down (forgetting Krishna) state is not a bodily plunge, it is a conscious descend downwards to the lower self or unconscious dream setting where one’s ‘thoughts’ enters and creates the holographic dimension of the material delusional universe, such creations are not factually created by the jiva-bhutah transmitted consciousness, even though one may think they are creating such facilitates due to forgetfulness of who they really are and Krishna the cause of all causes. In actual fact all the dreams, thoughts and desires of the transmitted secondary self are built into a secondary reality within the mahat-tattva by Maha-Vishnu.

Nitya-siddha refers to ones original Krishna Conscious body or higher personified self personified that is always there in bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (Gods Kingdom) even when ones dreaming jiva-bhutah consciousness, or lower self is projected into the material universe of dreams, or further transformed into the jiva-nikaya stage or non-dream state that happens after the embodied jiva-bhutah becomes frustrated with the impermanent nature of its material hallucinations, that, from the viewpoint of the Vaikuntha’s, are no more real than a mirage in a desert. However on this absolute level, all dreams, hallucinations, thoughts and mirages are real but temporary because the mahat-tattva or material universe does temporarily exist in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

Eventually the jiva-bhutah’s ethereal and biological containments that trap the transmitted life force or secondary consciousness in the material-interactive condition of existence in the mahat-tattva, withdrawals from the confines of those bodily vessels and the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, withdrawing to the jiva-nikaya inactive non-ethereal, biological and material condition. This is just another change of consciousness, altering one illusion for another, an active sub-consciousness (material activities), to an inactive sub-consciousness (Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti that exists outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu but still within the confines of the mahat-tattva.). They are both an illusion (real but temporary) and only exist in sub-conscious dreams transmitted from the Nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha body to the mahat-tattva as either the jiva-bhutah or jiva-nikaya condition while totally unaware of the atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body.

Due to the nature of eternal time and the permanence of the Spiritual universe or Personal Brahman or Brahmajyoti, past, present, future, space and time that can only exist within the mahat-tattva cloud within the Spiritual Sky, are amalgamated as an everlasting event with no beginning or no end. Everything in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha eternally happens in the present. This confirms that ones original atma-jiva-vigraha body is always in Goloka-Vrndavana, even if one is sub-consciously off somewhere else in some imaginary dream. That dream world or non-Krishna conscious mahat-tattva is the material universe and comes under the phenomena of past, present, future, time, space, ethereal vessel, biological vessels, impermanence, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age, death

March 28, 2007

There are so many philosophical viewpoints one can apply to the Krsna Consciousness philosophy. The Pradyumna Swami - Jiva Vigraha philosophy would have us ultimately conclude that the eternal associates of Vrajendra Nandana Sri Krsna are degrading into forgetfulness of Krsna. Even if such forgetfulness is for an instant the aspiring followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur appearing in this current generation will never accept such an anti-devotional conclusion. Herein lies the seed of self destruction in those who only view Srila Prabhupada's books by themselves and refuse to navigate the path by triangulating with the books of the previous acaryas.

March 28, 2007

ksipram bhavati dharmatma sasvac-chantim nigacchati

kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati

O son of Kunti, declare it to the world that my exclusively devoted bhakta (anaya-bhak) is never vanquished. Someone who declares this swiftly becomes virtuous and attains eternal joy.

March 29, 2007

A jiva perspective

Dandavats.com

By Antaryami Dasa

The following is a cross-section from books mentioned read in article titled: importance of reading submitted 9/12/06. Purpose of this article: To show jiva’s desending to earthly sphere.

The spirit soul or jiva as referred to by the vedas is in itself pure and transcendental, eternal full of knowledge and bliss in transcendental form. The jiva cannot be burned, dried, cut or killed, no time affects the jiva. The jiva is eternal a part and partial of the supreme jiva sri krsna. The eternal occupation of the jiva is to hear, chant, remember, serve and worship krsna always. There are nine types of service the jiva renders to lord krsna and four types of relationships may be held.

Krsna created the jiva as himself, transcendentally pure, granting the jiva an almost equal footing of enjoyment while serving krsna in the transcendental goloka/vikunta sphere where there is unlimited variaty. Krsna endowed the jiva with a minute particle of Independence, without this Independence loving service towards krsna would be a kind of slavery/robotic. The only real occupation of the jiva is to be krsna consciously serving krsna nothing else.

At some point the jiva somehow desired to enjoy separate of krsna, this was detected by krsna and krsna’s internal energy yoga maya. Yoga maya removed the jiva from krsna’s association and placed the jiva into the Brahma-Jyoti braman. The brahma-Jyoti is the effulgence emitting from krsna’s body. The jiva remains in a causal state there, conscious, desiring, but not able to act physically.

The jiva is now under the care of krsna’s external energy maha maya durga devi. Durga devi is known as krsna’s shadow. Durga acts as krsna’s mind, eye’s, hands, legs, and ears for monitoring and doing the needful with the jiva’s placed within this sphere correctional facility. Another meaning of durga is fortress or prison keeper. Empowered by krsna, durga is on a par with the supersoul antaryami who stays with the jiva always.

After sometime in the brahma-jyoti the jiva is taken and granted a material body to act within one of the many material universes that are clustered together like a small dark cloud amidst the brama-jyoti. This cloud is called mahat-tatva. To begin the jiva is first granted a bodily life as a brahma universal engineer in one universe. If the jiva does not awaken the dormant loving relationship for krsna as a brahma the jiva then falls to the level of an administrative demigod, in charge of one of natures forces even a planet.

Time place and circumstances are taken seriously, no accidents or mistakes made regarding universe, planet and body the jiva will be placed into.

If yet the jiva does not awaken the loving relationship for krsna on this level the jiva then accepts birth as a human being on an earthly planet. Previous to taking birth as a human being there was no karma on the jiva, the jiva was enjoying coming down, a concessions reward from krsna on his devotee who desired to leave his association. Durga and her aid’s-de-camp the modes of material nature: goodness, passion, ignorance have taken complete control of the jiva’s material body, mind, intellect, senses, bodily actions, inside and out. Always the jiva’s desires and actions being monitored.

Within mahat-tatva there are unlimited universes large and small. Each universe is covered by seven different layers, each layer very vast in thickness, no chance of the jiva escaping this correctional facility.

The jiva is not actually the owner/controller of the granted material body, the jiva is only a passenger of the body. Encaged in the body floating in five types of air in the heart region. The jiva never comes into contact with any material bodily parts or minds etc. The jiva merely witnesses and views the bodies thoughts, functions, actions, food/beverage intake from the encaged position all based on a desire to enjoy separate of krsna.

Desire only carry the jiva from body to body, desires are monitored by krsna and his assistants from within and from outside the body. The vedas state that only after the jiva enters a human form does the karma begin, the karma factor begins here. agtsp

March 29, 2007

1.

Dear Prabhu,

Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you very much for this look into the “timeline” of the jiva’s descent into the material world. I was hoping, however, that you could provide some scriptural back-ups for what you have said, that or quotes from Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas. I have never heard, for instance, that before coming under the influence of the mahat tattva that the jiva goes into the brahma-jyoti. Also, as an slight editorial note, there are actually twelve relationships that the jiva can have with the Supreme Person: five direct, and seven indirect.

“Invoking auspiciousness: Lord Sri Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, the reservoir of all rasas, or relationships, which are called neutrality (passive adoration), servitorship, friendship, parenthood, conjugal love, comedy, compassion, fear, chivalry, ghastliness, wonder and devastation.” NoD Introduction

“Another message was once sent to Krishna informing Him that after He had killed Kamsa, one of Kamsa’s demon friends had gone insane. This demon was foaming at the mouth, waving his arms and rolling on the ground. This demoniac demonstration is in relationship with Krishna in a ghastly humor. This mellow or flavor is one of the indirect relationships with Krishna. The first five kinds of relationships are called direct, and the other seven are called indirect. Some way or other, the demon must have had some relationship with Krishna, because these symptoms developed when he heard that Krishna had already killed Kamsa. Srila Rupa Gosvami remarks that there is also transcendental excellence in this kind of symptom.” NoD Ch.29

Comment posted by bhakta edwin on March 26th, 2007

2.

“At some point the jiva somehow desired to enjoy separate of krsna, this was detected by krsna and krsna’s internal energy yoga maya. Yoga maya removed the jiva from krsna’s association and placed the jiva into the Brahma-Jyoti braman.”

It seems like a rather severe reaction, that we should be eternally conditioned, immersed in misery for countless lifetimes (bg 8.16) because we supposedly tinged our eternal loving service with a moment of envy, when we cannot even fathom how such envy could have existed. It’s hard to believe that Krishna was unable to think of a more gentle way of addressing this problem, but here we are.

I can’t even understand what “at some point” means in the context of eternity in the spiritual world. Given that time does not pass away in Vaikuntha (Brahma Samhita 5.56) I can’t imagine how such a incompatible mood could arise there or how the jivas being expelled to wander in eternal misery could cause that desire there to perish.

Also, in one sense it is alright to say that we “somehow” desired to enjoy separately from Krishna because among the myriad jivas there may be many individual reasons. However I have never heard a single plausible reason, nor can I imagine one. This is especially troublesome because it seems to contradict the jiva’s purity, Krishna’s attractiveness, and the nature of bhakti in the spiritual world.

I have heard others say that the activities in the material world are the finite manifestation of Krishna’s activities, which would not be complete without them. However, that suggests Krishna needs us to suffer for Him to be truly great, which does not make sense to me. I was taught that Krishna’s lila is superior to His tattva, and that does make sense to me. If logic requires that jivas have to suffer for Krishna to be complete, then I would expect Him to overrule such a tyrannical situation by His desire. Isn’t mercy (power plus compassion) greater than power? If so, then I still don’t know why we’re here.

Comment posted by Pandu das on March 27th, 2007

March 29, 2007

If Krishna allows his eternal devotees to get into Maya and find themselves in a situation where they are suffering mental anguish for millions of illusory lifetimes, then this would mean that Krishna's statement in the Gita "My devotee will never perish" is untrue.

Think about that.

March 29, 2007

Friend, you should find a genuine Guru who can teach you the philosophy and religion of Sri Chaitanyadeva. It is not that the term "jiva-shakti" means shakti generated from the jivatma. If someone has told you this is what jiva-shakti means then you should stop listening to them and find a real sadhu who can teach you the Truth.

The term jiva-shakti indicates one of the three primary potencies of Bhagavan, as described in the verse below which was spoken by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. It is Mahaprabhu himself who has given this meaning to the words "jiva-shakti".

Please, do yourself and others a favour and stop speaking about things you don't understand. Read Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta 5 times from start to finish and avoid quarrels with people debating topics you don't understand.

====================

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 6.160

antarańgā — cic-chakti, taṭasthā — jīva-śakti

bahirańgā — māyā, — tine kare prema-bhakti

SYNONYMS

antarańgā — the internal potency; cit-śakti — the spiritual potency; taṭasthā — the marginal potency; jīva-śakti — the living entities; bahirańgā — the external potency; māyā — the illusory energy; tine — all three of them; kare — do; prema-bhakti — devotional service in love.

TRANSLATION

"The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases — internal, marginal and external. These are all engaged in His devotional service in love.

PURPORT

The spiritual potency of the Lord is manifested in three phases — the internal or spiritual potency, the marginal potency, which consists of the living entities, and the external potency, known as māyā-śakti. We must understand that in each of these three phases the original spiritual potencies of pleasure, eternity and knowledge remain intact. When the potencies of spiritual pleasure and knowledge are both bestowed upon the conditioned souls, the conditioned souls can escape the clutches of the external potency, māyā, which acts as a cover obscuring one's spiritual identity. When freed, the living entity awakens to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and engages in devotional service with love and affection.

Your innocent arrogance has understood the correct facts of Vedanta, you should understand the comments you are quoting and instead of being a parrot. Try and understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada as 108108 has carefully explained. – Here is a simple English translation.

The authentic self in Goloka is ones real bodily form serving Krishna, the jiva sakti or influence of the nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA (the real bodily Krishna Conscious self) in the Vaikuntha’s is engaged in perpetual loving selfless devotional service however, the sakti means also the generation of consciousness . Therefore it is a fact that the jiva DOES manifest as a secondary conscious self that is transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud when one rebels against Krishna. The rebellious souls or the sakti of the jiva (consciousness) CANNOT enter the mahat-tattva cloud in their original rasa body because that transcendental body perpetually remains in either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. When we fall down from Goloka due to ‘choice’, it is only a conscious fall down and NEVER as a transcendental bodily fall down. Remember, our nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA body can NEVER fall down.

The only way we fall to the nitya-baddha conscious condition is through the non- Krishna Conscious, secondary conscious ( the sakti of the jivatma) projections emanating from marginal original self when rebellious towards Krishna. In actually fact, in a crude annology, the marginal living entities are given free will that can be compared to a light that has the on and off switch. The on is our (krishna conscious devotional rasa with Krishna,where as the off switch is our non- Krishna conscious desires, thoughts and dreams THAT are transmitted out of the Vaikuntha realm as a secondary conscious condition to the mahat-tattva cloud. This secondary conscious condition is also known as the jiva-sakti or the sakti of the jiva., the realm of influence of the jiva, the potency of the jiva!!

Once in the mahat-tattva, that SAKTI OF THE JIVA’ also known as the jiva-bhutah due to now being conditioned by the ethereal and biological vessels handed out by Maha-Vishnu, becomes trapped for millions of births, when the jiva-bhutah seeks liberation from the contained in ethereal and biological bodies, yet sill unaware from where their secondary JIVA-SAKTI consciousness is transmitted from (the jivatma-vigraha perpetual genuine self, the transferred jiva bhutah consciousness or the jiva sakti or sakti of the jiva, becomes inactive in the Brahma-sayujya, tatastra or impersonal Brahmajyoti and that state of consciousness or SAKTI OF THE JIVA is called the jiva-nikaya.. Ones existence in the mahat-tattva is the sakti of the jiva transferred or transmitted from ones genuine marginal bodily self into a secondary marginal impermanent condition when one chooses to no longer serve Krishna.

We can only repeat that our origins are from Goloka-Vrndavana as Srila Prabhupada has told us and if we are fortunate enough to again re-waken there, we will certainly understand the spiritual world much better then as we awaken back up as our original Krishna Conscious body.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness means when he says:

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastra-sakti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

March 29, 2007

Friend, you should find a genuine Guru who can teach you the philosophy and religion of Sri Chaitanyadeva. It is not that the term "jiva-shakti" means shakti generated from the jivatma. If someone has told you this is what jiva-shakti means then you should stop listening to them and find a real sadhu who can teach you the Truth.

Please, do yourself and others a favour and stop speaking about things you don't understand. Read Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta 5 times from start to finish and avoid quarrels with people debating topics you don't understand.

n.

To start with, my Spirtual Master is His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (intiated 1971). What nonsense offensive comments you have posted! Anyway - The jiva sakti IS the potency and influence of the jiva AND HAS OTHER MEANINGS AS WELL. I agree with the last comment, instead of being a mindless parot, SELF RIGHTIOUSLY QUOTING THINGS YOU CLEARLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND AND OBVIOUSLY HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE UNDERSTANDING, try and understand the true teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

March 29, 2007

You have completely missundertood - The jiva-sakti refers to the transfomation of the jivatma-vigraha. The jiva-sakti only exists in the mahat-tattva.

Godhead is light. Nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience. This is a very profound statement’.

Srila Prabhupada states in his teachings of Lord Chaitanya referring to the living entity (jiva-bhutah consciousness) entrapment in the material manifestation (mahat-tattva): -

‘The living entity is eternally part and parcel of God, when he is liberated from the impermanent material manifestation; he revives his original, eternal, part-and-parcel bodily identity. The realization of aham brahmasmi ("I am not this biological body") does not mean that the living entity loses his identity. At the present moment a person may consider himself to be matter, but in his liberated state he will understand that he is not matter but spirit soul, part of the infinite. To become Krishna conscious or spiritually conscious and to engage in the transcendental loving service of Krishna are signs of the liberated stage’.

Every living entity (Krishna’s marginal potency) has an original nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-atma-vigraha body they can realize if they remain Krishna Conscious, or can never realize when not Krishna Conscious. The meaning of these Sanskrit words are: -

Nitya-siddha - Everyone (all living entities or the marginal potency of Krishna) has a perpetual nitya-siddha higher self or Krishna conscious body that can never fall or leave Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

The fall down (forgetting Krishna) state is not a bodily plunge, it is a conscious descend downwards to the lower self or unconscious dream setting where one’s ‘thoughts’ enters and creates the holographic dimension of the material delusional universe, such creations are not factually created by the jiva-bhutah transmitted consciousness, even though one may think they are creating such facilitates due to forgetfulness of who they really are and Krishna the cause of all causes. In actual fact all the dreams, thoughts and desires of the transmitted secondary self are built into a secondary reality within the mahat-tattva by Maha-Vishnu.

Nitya-siddha refers to ones original Krishna Conscious body or higher personified self personified that is always there in bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (Gods Kingdom) even when ones dreaming jiva-bhutah consciousness, or lower self is projected into the material universe of dreams, or further transformed into the jiva-nikaya stage or non-dream state that happens after the embodied jiva-bhutah becomes frustrated with the impermanent nature of its material hallucinations, that, from the viewpoint of the Vaikuntha’s, are no more real than a mirage in a desert. However on this absolute level, all dreams, hallucinations, thoughts and mirages are real but temporary because the mahat-tattva or material universe does temporarily exist in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

Eventually the jiva-bhutah’s ethereal and biological containments that trap the transmitted life force or secondary consciousness in the material-interactive condition of existence in the mahat-tattva, withdrawals from the confines of those bodily vessels and the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, withdrawing to the jiva-nikaya inactive non-ethereal, biological and material condition. This is just another change of consciousness, altering one illusion for another,an active sub-consciousness (material activities), to an inactive sub-consciousness (Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti that exists outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu but still within the confines of the mahat-tattva.).They are both an illusion (real but temporary) and only exist in sub-conscious dreams transmitted from the Nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha body to the mahat-tattva as either the jiva-bhutah or jiva-nikaya condition while totally unaware of the atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body.

Due to the nature of eternal time and the permanence of the Spiritual universe or Personal Brahman or Brahmajyoti, past, present, future, space and time that can only exist within the mahat-tattva cloud within the Spiritual Sky, are amalgamated as an everlasting event with no beginning or no end. Everything in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha eternally happens in the present. This confirms that ones original atma-jiva-vigraha body is always in Goloka-Vrndavana, even if one is sub-consciously off somewhere else in some imaginary dream. That dream world or non-Krishna conscious mahat-tattva is the material universe and comes under the phenomena of past, present, future, time, space, ethereal vessel, biological vessels, impermanence, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age, death

· Siddhasvarupa - One’s Krishna Conscious unique, original and servitor personal relationship with Krishna that is eternally in Goloka-Vrndavana even if one has turned their back on Krishna and experience existence through their lower self as the sub-conscious transmission of non-Krishna conscious desires or thoughts, where one imagines themselves as many different forms with many personalities, still their real transcendental state of Krishna Consciousness and relationships with Krishna, His internal plenary individual expansions and His devotee’s (other nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha’s) is always in Goloka-Vrndavana, regardless if ones dreaming consciousness has entered the abstract universe of shadows known as the material universe. It is therefore clear that ones original eternal relationship is always with Krishna, even while one is dreaming other things and has forgotten their atma-vigraha body from where the illusionary dreams are transmitted. One can only be re-awakened, after previously ‘choosing to deliberately leaving Goloka-Vrndavana’, when one is again Krishna Conscious. It is impossible to understand whom one really is in Krishna Lila (pastime) while still absorbed in the sub-conscious-jiva bhutah or jiva-nikaya projected hallucinations.

· Sat - Krishna Conscious eternity beyond time and space, past, present and future.

· Cit- Krishna Conscious Knowledge.

· Ananda - Krishna Conscious bliss.

· Atma - (soul’s higher self, personality and individuality) – Krishna Conscious self, identity, and personality (also atma can mean jiva however, in this thesis, the jiva (soul’s lower self) is the sub-consciousness of the full conscious atma (the souls higher self) and is called the jiva-bhutah that is the transmitted dreaming consciousness that creates the material illusion. The non-Krishna Conscious jiva-bhutah-sub-consciousness only exists when one is not Krishna Conscious, just as darkness cannot exist when the light is on.

· Vigraha - Soul’s Krishna Conscious eternal form and is the atma’s individual eternal identity and personality

Ones inability to remember Krishna while trapped in the jiva-bhutah sub-consciousness is due to attachment to the lower self. This addiction to counterfeit bodies and identities are shaped by the jiva-bhutah-sub-conscious determination to satisfy their self-interest of being determined to enjoy like Krishna, replacing service to Krishna with service to the imaginary self. In this way, the shadow of the Krishna Conscious atma-jiva-vigraha body becomes that imagined self and is called the jiva-bhutah-sub-conscious non-Krishna conscious condition. This shadow of ones self is only interested in pursing self-centered sensual gratification (lower-self addicted to ethereal, biological and material life or non Krishna conscious dreams) that creates what we call the material universe where one can forget Krishna for almost an eternity if they want.

The Brahmajyoti or Brahman is held together by form and is the entire creation where Goloka-Vrndavana, the Vaikuntha’s (imperishable) as well as the mahat-tattva (perishable) exist. What anyone does within the mahat-tattva, it is like acting out a role in a play

Generally nitya-siddha among Vaishnava's means one never falls to the conditioned living entity stage, known as the jiva-bhutah non-Krishna dreaming conscious condition, which is the sub-conscious lower self (nitya-baddha or eternally conditioned state) that is oblivious to their full Krishna Conscious atma-vigraha body in Krishna's perpetual Kingdom.

The lower conscious self (jiva-bhutah) is always in the nitya-baddha condition of comatose consciousness that can only actively manifest within the perishable material universal dream. Therefore, more or less, their understanding is correct however, even though the nitya-siddha atma-vigraha bodies never fall down from Krishna's Personal Kingdom, the introverted dreaming conscious state 'within' which is called the nitya-baddha jiva-bhutah, can be generated as consciousness from ones real self or nitya-siddha atma-vigraha bodily form.

Even though ones original body can never fall down from Krishna’s perpetual Kingdom, it is possible, due to free will, one can enter a trance like insignificant (real but temporary) secondary consciousness called the jiva-bhutah lower self and forget that unique blissful nitya-siddha bodily form or higher self and ‘consciously fall’ (not as ones uninterrupted bodily form) to the nitya-baddha eternally conditioned state. This is similar to forgetting the biological body while sleeping and dreaming. In simple terms, the atma-vigraha body, or higher conscious awareness in the form of ones real bodily form serving Krishna in the Kingdom of God, is eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and can never fall down, where as the lower conscious self, manifested as a multiple dreaming bodily identities and forms within the material universe or mahat-tattva, is eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) and is always in that state.

Every living entities original individual bodily devotional form (marginal potency of the Lord) in Krishna's Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode.

I found this ouote very inspiring also I would like to add that all marginal living entities have freewill which means the choice is there to serve Krishna or not serve Krishna, this choose is given because Krishna wants us to willingly love Him and if we do not choose to do so, He has creared the maha-tattva via His various expansions.

The following quote is from THE SECRET BOOK OF ORIGINS : - 'The energy of Lord Krishna is divided into three: para, kshetrajna and avidya. The para energy is actually the energy of the Supreme Lord Himself; the kshetrajna energy is the individual living entities or the marginal potency of Krishna that are all originally eternal bodily persons like Krishna yet always in the constitutional position of eternal servants and the enjoyed, while Krishna is the enjoyer; and the avidya energy is the material world (mahat-tattva), under the influential control of Maya-Devi, the wife of the creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu.

Never was there a time when all the individual transcendental bodies (marginal potency, soul or atma-jiva-vigraha devotee’s) did not exist, nor in the future will such original bodies cease to be. This is confirmed as follows –

‘Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be’ - Bhagavad-Gita as it is chapter 12 text 2.

Krishna or God is a perpetual ‘Bodily-Person’ and so are all of the individual marginal potencies (souls) that emanate/surround Him.

We hear from the Vedic texts that the Supreme Brahman or Brahmajyoti exhibits Krishna’s (God’s) effulgence, and therefore everything becomes illuminated. We can understand from Brahma-samhita that this Brahmajyoti, or the Brahman effulgence, emanates from the Personal body of Lord Krishna.

Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls.

Even the terminology ‘originally manifested’ is incorrect because there is no beginning or end to Krishna or His marginal devotee’s. One thing is certain; all living entities that enter the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the far corner of the Spiritual Sky have all originated from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, not as their perpetual devotional Krishna Conscious body, but rather as a transformation of consciousness caused by non-Krishna conscious desires.

All marginal sparks, souls, jiva's, atoms in the effulgence, potencies, energies etc are all individual bodily personalities that originally manifested as an eternally Krishna (God) Conscious devotional body or sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. (Etenity, knowledge, bliss and form)

It is only when they (the marginal devotee’s as their authentic devotional body) foolishly transmit a 'secondary conscious phenomenon’ (jiva-bhutah) to the mahat-tattva (material universe), that such knowledge of their original service to Krishna in the transcendental body they really are, is temporarily lost (never severed due to their spiritual body being the source of their transmitted jiva bhutah consciousness) and the disease of Impersonalism (Mayavadism) and confinement to ethereal and biological vessels or bodies, overwhelms and traps their transferred secondary consciousness to the confines of the material temporary universe or mahat-tattva.

As marginal living entities we have the ability to move from one atmosphere to the other. When we drop into material consciousness we are considered eternally bound (nitya baddha) because that is all we have awareness of. The reason we lose awareness of our transcendental form (nitya-siddha atma-vigraha) is that form exists as it is only as a form for rasa with Krishna. So naturally when we forget Krishna we would have to forget our own rasa body'.

March 29, 2007

If Krishna allows his eternal devotees to get into Maya and find themselves in a situation where they are suffering mental anguish for millions of illusory lifetimes, then this would mean that Krishna's statement in the Gita "My devotee will never perish" is untrue.

Think about that.

A. To appear as an actually spark of living individual light cannot exist within the Personal original and only real reality or Brahmajyoti Known as Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha that takes up ¾ of creation, it can only exist in that part of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky that is covered by the dark cloud where the mahat-tattva also exists and under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu. The tatastha sakti is an impersonal transformation of the jiva-sakti in its jiva-nikaya condition existing in the Brahma-sayujya. This is the non-dreaming marginal condition of the atma-jiva-vigraha after first appearing in the mahat-tattva as the secondary jiva-bhutah consciousness, then after becoming fed up with taking shelter of impermanent ethereal and biological vessels, struggle for another million life times to end their karma and become inactive and free from those ethereal and biological restraints. In Sanskrit this dormant inactive state of consciousness is called the jiva-nikaya dormant state. This dormant state of consciousness (jiva-nikaya) is owing to the fact that all material dreaming eventually ceases due to the frustration and anguish the impermanent nature of the mahat-tattva causes. Ones transmitted consciousness therefore, after much struggle as a yogi or jnani, is no longer under the spell of karmic reactions or the influence of Maya’s sakti (influence) or her dreaming husband’s (Maha-Vishnu) dreams that only exists within the dark cloud where the mahat-tattva (material universe) also exists. The escape however into the Brahma-sayujya is only temporary and again the jiva-nikaya inactive consciousness awakens and the jiva’s sakti transforms again into the jiva-bhutah that becomes housed with ethereal and biological bodies AGAIN. Viraja means spotless consciousness free of material activity and is the nirvana of the Buddhists and Impersonalist yogis.

It is the undifferentiated (a state of suspended consciousness) seminal (beginning condition) that only exists within the realm of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu. Impersonalism and materialism cannot stand or exist within the Personal Brahmajyoti that is where the individual jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s and the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Planets. Brahman therefore is individual consciousness represented as the individual jiva-atma-vigraha’s and the solid Spiritual planets that are the Brahmajyoti effulgence. Their personal aura is light - Jyoti means light.

Q. If the jiva’s sakti in this world manifests as the nitya-baddha (eternally conditioned), and thus has always been under the influence of Maya sakti, then what does the brahmajyoti consist of?

March 29, 2007

The authentic self in Goloka is ones real bodily form serving Krishna, the jiva sakti or influence of the nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA (the real bodily Krishna Conscious self) in the Vaikuntha’s is engaged in perpetual loving selfless devotional service however, the sakti means also the generation of consciousness . Therefore it is a fact that the jiva DOES manifest as a secondary conscious self that is transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud when one rebels against Krishna. The rebellious souls or the sakti of the jiva (consciousness) CANNOT enter the mahat-tattva cloud in their original rasa body because that transcendental body perpetually remains in either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. When we fall down from Goloka due to ‘choice’, it is only a conscious fall down and NEVER as a transcendental bodily fall down. Remember, our nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA body can NEVER fall down.

.

Please provide evidence from the scriptures to back up this theory.

March 29, 2007

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness means when he says:

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastra-sakti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Well, I can't argue with that on this forum can I?

If Prabhupada said it then it must be true. Right?

March 29, 2007

To start with, my Spirtual Master is His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (intiated 1971). What nonsense offensive comments you have posted! Anyway - The jiva sakti IS the potency and influence of the jiva AND HAS OTHER MEANINGS AS WELL. I agree with the last comment, instead of being a mindless parot, SELF RIGHTIOUSLY QUOTING THINGS YOU CLEARLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND AND OBVIOUSLY HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE UNDERSTANDING, try and understand the true teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

Yes, well, umm...

I also joined "the Temple" as we called it then, in 1971.

I am listed on the Prabhupada disciple database as having been initiated in 1974. However that is an error, because even though Prabhupada personally instructed me to "chant Hare Krishna mantra 16 rounds, follow the four regulative principles, and thoroughly read an assimilite my books", I did not sit in for the regular initiation ceremony as the GBC boss running things didn't like me.

So, ummm... I've been around for a while too.

I took diksa from Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj and I am very happy to have found him.

I respect Srila Prabhupada but on this issue, at least, I must say I find it difficult to accept what he says is backed up by statements in the writings of the previous Acharyas.

That is why I keep repeatedly asking you to back up the things you are saying with quotes from the scriptures.

Vigraha · March 29, 2007

Great Rishis, Yogis and Sages who are devotees of Lord Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead and source of all creation and the cause of all causes, want to see all the individual projected-jiva-bhutah-consciousnesses (individual life force’s) trapped in various temporary extended imaginary bodily ethereal and biological identities and vessels within the material universal dream, wake-up and return back home, back to Godhead.

In this way, compassionate genuine devotees of Lord Krishna want to see the transmitted forgetful jiva-bhutah-consciousness reunite or come together, amalgamate and join back with their real self and be disappointed by their ‘full awake’ individual and independent ‘Krishna Conscious body’, which is there authentic eternal imperishable source and origin. This incomparable and unmatched form is called the Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-atma-vigraha body that is always selflessly serving Lord Krishna (God).

The only way to ‘be who one really is in the body they really are eternally’, is to always remember and serve <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and never ever forget Him. That is the only way of not falling into the secondary conscious jiva-bhutah state. Wile the light of Krishna Consciousness is on; there is no darkness which factually means while one is totally Krishna Conscious as ones authentic self, the darkness, the jiva-bhutah lower self, the nitya-baddha condition, the non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious sakti, that has many other names, also does not exist. This is because the sakti (realm of influence) of ones nitya-siddha jiva-atma vigraha is firmly engaged in devotional service. Only when that light of the genuine self serving Krishna is turned out by selfish desires and envy does all the lower self attributes exist

This is the living entities (atma-vigraha’s) real identity and only reality that exists perpetually in Goloka-Vrindavan/Vaikuntha, where one is eternally and selflessly serving Krishna in His timeless imperishable Kingdom.

One’s extended-projected-forgetful-jiva-bhutah-consciousness, transmitted into ethereal and biological bodies within Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva temporary manifestation, exist as fading illusionary dreams within the material universe. This universe along with both the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the dreaming lower self of the authentic self, originates at the source of that transmission, which is one’s full consciousness or nitya-siddha-jivatma-vigraha Krishna Conscious imperishable body in Goloka-Vrndavana, the eternal <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1> of </st1:place><st1:place w:st="on"><st1>God</st1></st1:place>.

The origin of the jiva-soul consciousness, or life force (jiva-bhutah), is from its origin or Krishna Conscious atma-vigraha body. How one falls from the Personal Active Kingdom of God (in a projected broadcasted dreaming consciousness), to the impermanent material world, where one’s transmitted dreaming consciousness, known as the jiva-soul, creates, out of ignorance and forgetfulness, an unlimited variety of temporary bodily ethereal (heavenly and hellish) containers, as well as the ethereal bodies ‘extended’ biological vessels, appear on the middle planetary systems like our earth, will be fully explained in this thesis.

These biological vessels includes all the various species of biological shapes or vehicles, as well as a further projected dream-state illusionary escape from both the ethereal body and its extended biological body into inactivity (jiva-nikaya), known as the Impersonal motionless non-spiritual Brahma-sayujya, Brahmajoyti or tatastra-sakti. All are an illusion created by ones forgetfulness of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

The word Spiritual in this thesis means Krishna Conscious devotion. The Brahmajoyti is not a spiritual place because devotion to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> can never exist there.

Living individual sparks appearing in the impersonal Brahmajoyti as inactive light particles; also exist in Buddhism and many impersonal branches of Hinduism in what is also known as the Nirvana or Void. All will all be fully all explained in this thesis.

Those who seek the shelter of the Impersonal inactive Brahmajoyti, have long, long ago denied the existence of a Personal God or Krishna who is the maintainer of all, as well as the maintainer of their own original ‘full Krishna Conscious’ bodily form, personality, identity and individuality (atma-vigraha) that blossoms eternally as an everlasting loving selfless servant of God or Krishna. Only due to forgetfulness of who they really are, do they therefore eventually take shelter of the Brahmajoyti because they have long ago forgotten their unadulterated Spiritual bodily relationship with Krishna and after doing so, project or broadcasted their forgetful transmittable dreaming consciousness and thoughts to their own ‘reality’ (material universe or Impersonal Brahmajoyti) that, unlike the Krishna Conscious Spiritual universe, is temporary and is always in decline or decay (the material universe). Also it is the inherent nature of the living-being, entity, jivatma-vigraha, to always be active as their original perpetual devotional Krishna Conscious bodily. The so called spiritual spark (inactive transmitted consciousness or jiva-nikaya), only attained after first passing through the mahat-tattva confined to ethereal and biological bodies can not permanently and never has permanently remained in the tatastra condition within the Impersonal Brahmajoyti. The dormant jiva-nikaya condition may repeatedly go there but always falls down to the constraints of ethereal and biological bodies within the confines of the mahat-tattva cloud.

It is only after the trapped embodied jiva-bhutah-consciousness exhausts their attempts to enjoy independently from Krishna in their own mental thought, creations or dreams that are provide ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva that is a real manifestation in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, but temporary (known as the unreal or impermanent material universe), do they seek shelter of the Impersonal dreamless, inactive non-spiritual Brahmajyoti, that is also only a temporary illusionary dream-state or resting place that is existing in denial of their real self in the jiva-nikaya state on conscious projection. In other words, they deny (forget) the existence of their eternal bodily Krishna Conscious character and form known in Sanskrit as their original and only existent Krishna Conscious self or ‘nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-atma-vigraha’ body.

Even without any knowledge of Krishna, or our own real eternal individual Krishna Conscious bodily Spiritual form, the projected jiva-bhutah-consciousness is always eternally connected to the perpetual Krishna Conscious atma-vigraha body in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Kingdom. Due to forgetfulness, the jiva-soul-consciousness is unaware of this connection to ones real bodily form while transmitting forgetful dreams into the material illusionary universe or, due to becoming frustrated with the material universe, transmitting or projecting a non-dream known as the Brahmajyoti – just another illusion the jiva-soul-consciousness creates while forgetful of their Krishna Conscious body.

Unfortunately it is difficult to understand that the various ethereal bodies (heavenly and hellish) as well as the ethereal bodies extended biological container with all their identities and personalities, the forgetful-jiva-bhutah-consciousness has created in the material temporary world, is actually a dream-state formed and transmitted from ones forgetful atma-vigraha body in the Kingdom of God as soon as one forgets Krishna.

Forgetting <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> has a twofold effect. By forgetting Krishna one also forgets their real eternal Krishna Conscious body they serve <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Krishna</st1:city> <st1:state w:st="on">AS</st1:state></st1:place>, that’s when the jiva-BHUTAH-dreaming consciousness begins to be transmitted, creating unlimited identities and personalities in the illusionary dreaming universe OF MAHA Vishnu THAT IS REAL BUT TEMPOARY.

The origin of the transmitted jiva-soul consciousness is the Krishna Conscious atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body. All jiva-souls, <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">SPARKS</st1:place></st1:city>, ATOMS IN THE EFFULGENCE have a Krishna Conscious atma-vigraha origin.

The forgetful Krishna Consciousness of the individual atma-vigraha bodies in Goloka-Vrndavana, is called the televised transmitted jiva-soul-consciousness that reverberates sub-conscious thoughts of non-Krishna Consciousness desires that broadcast the realism-dream-state-illusion of the impermanent material universe.

Such thoughts or dreams are echoed or broadcasted from ones transmutable consciousness that emanates from ones ATHENTIC and only perpetual atma-vigraha body – those thoughts, or echoed consciousness or sakti is the jiva-bhutah-consciousness.

Even though the sub-consciousness is dreaming and creating many temporary bodily forms in the material universe, one’s projected consciousness is always eternally connected to its atma-vigraha bodily source in Goloka-Vrndavana because that is who one really is. It is compared to dreaming in ones present body. While dreaming, one forgets their body and therefore manifests in their dream as different personalities and identities.

From the bigger picture, this is what is really going on.

There is irrefutable proof that the jiva-bhutah-consciousness is transmitted and simultaneously creates the material universal dream in partnership with the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu. As already emphasized, that consciousness (jiva-bhutah) originates from the Krishna Conscious atma-vigraha body and only is transmitted from that eternal body when one is forgetful of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. When ones overall consciousness (atma-vigraha) is unqualified (due to not being devotionally Krishna Conscious) to be ‘consciously’ as the bodily rasa they really are in Goloka-Vrndavana.

The projected transmitted extended jiva-bhutah-consciousness manifests (LIKE SWITCHING OFF A LIGHT) and comes into existence. This secondary conscious state or sakti of the jivatma-vigraha, emanates or originates from the atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body WHEN THE LIGHT OF DEVOTION IS SWITCHED OFF). This ‘split-personality’ ALWAYS EXISTS BECAUSE OF FREE WILL. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, founder of ISKCON, preached that we did indeed fall from the Spiritual World known as Goloka-Vrndavana to the dream world known as the mahat-tattva or the real but temporary material manifestation..

From as essay from Pradyumna Swami.

March 29, 2007

No one in the Gaudiya line in India except some ISKCON influenced neophytes would ever accept the notion that the conditioned jiva souls in this world were ever situated in their rasa and lila postion with Krsna. All senior Gaudiyas that I have interviewed on this subject say the same thing. This is true of Gaudiya Matha and sangas derived from Gaudiya Math, the Babajis and other "traditional" Gaudiyas. When shown the evidence from Srila Prabhupada's letters and conversations they all say the same thing - that his books supercede all his conversations and letters because the conversation and letters are for time, place and circumstance and must be seen in that light. If you therefore look only at the books as the final authority and then accept that Prabhupada is giving the same thing as his Guru Maharaja and guru varga, just like a letter carrier, then it is possible to come to the correct conclusion. But this means you must be familiar to some extent with the writings of the previous acaryas. Erroneous conclusions such as the "Pradyumna Swami Concoction" arise because neophyte ISKCONians refuse to consult anyone "outside" of ISKCON or "Rtvik ISKCON" no matter how senior or learned are such authorities. There are many learned and realized Vaisnavas who are technically ouitside of ISKCON and Rtvik ISKCON who, if the sastras are like law books, are like law school professors and even the professors of the professors. In relation to them, because of samskars, sukrti and practice, most senior ISKCONians (mainstream and Rtivik) are like confused first year law students. Prabhupada made allowance for so many from so many backgrounds to be engaged in acquiring sukrti, yet when those neophyte persons come to argue against the real Gaudiya siddhanta it is extremely unfortunate. As Rupa Gosvami quotes from the Skanda purana in the Bhakti-

rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.10)

sruti-smrti-puranadi

pancaratra-vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir

utpatayaiva kalpate

We cannot accept conclusions such as Pradyumna Swami's on the origin of the jiva soul, if they go against the Srutis, Smritis and Puranas etc. If fact such erroneous conclusions must be kicked out, utpatayaiva kalpate, otherwise they will simply be a disturbance to those who wish to follow the correct Gaudiya siddhanta.

March 29, 2007

]Unedited section of Pradyumna Swami's Book

Krishna or God is a perpetual ‘Bodily-Person’ and so are all of the individual marginal potencies (souls) that emanate/surround Him.

We hear from the Vedic texts that the Supreme Brahman or Brahmajyoti exhibits Krishna’s (God’s) effulgence, and therefore everything becomes illuminated. We can understand from Brahma-samhita that this Brahmajyoti, or the Brahman effulgence, emanates from the Personal body of Lord Krishna.

Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls.

Even the terminology ‘originally manifested’ is incorrect because there is no beginning or end to Krishna or His marginal devotee’s. One thing is certain; all living entities that enter the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the far corner of the Spiritual Sky have all originated from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, not as their perpetual devotional Krishna Conscious body, but rather as a transformation of consciousness caused by non-Krishna conscious desires.

All marginal sparks, souls, jiva's, atoms in the effulgence, potencies, energies etc are all individual bodily personalities that originally manifested as an eternally Krishna (God) Conscious devotional body or sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. (Etenity, knowledge, bliss and form)

It is only when they (the marginal devotee’s as their authentic devotional body) foolishly transmit a 'secondary conscious phenomenon’ (jiva-bhutah) to the mahat-tattva (material universe), that such knowledge of their original service to Krishna in the transcendental body they really are, is temporarily lost (never severed due to their spiritual body being the source of their transmitted jiva bhutah consciousness) and the disease of Impersonalism (Mayavadism) and confinement to ethereal and biological vessels or bodies, overwhelms and traps their transferred secondary consciousness to the confines of the material temporary universe or mahat-tattva.

The unfortunate unknowledgeable view of believing our origins are from Impersonal origins even affects many great Vaishnava devotee’s like Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja Swami, B.G. Narasingha and many others in the Gaudiya Math. Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls. Their understanding of the jiva or souls origins is simply incorrect. The fact is, we are all eternal person as a perpetual transcendental body and always have been that bodily form. We can either accept that Krishna conscious bodily origins, or we can deny that body and consciously transfer our desires, aspirations, dreams and thoughts to he mahat-tattva (impermanent material universe of self centered importance).

Ultimately Krishna’s ‘marginal-potency-bodily personalities’ are the Brahmajyoti!!

It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, may sometimes go on to ‘consciously’ (never as the body they are eternally, that is their true selfless devotional unique self) leave Krishna’s imperishable abode and enter the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a secondary non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti. Only in this way, via the mahat-tattva cloud, can the Impersonal Brahmajyoti temporarily exist.

All the ‘individual bodily subsidiary sparks (vigraha’s) of the effulgence originating from Krishna’ are actually collectively the Brahmajyoti Brahman effulgence or Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha’s bodily personalities serving Krishna.

The mahat-tattva on the other hand, is also part and the parcel of the Brahmajyoti, and comes into existence due the dreams of Maha-Vishnu (the parcel or energetic) and simultaneously the non-Krishna conscious desires, aspirations, thoughts and dreams of the marginal living entities (the part or energy) perpetually serving the either Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana when they abandon that service. Without the part, (marginal) the parcel (Krishna) is not complete – without the marginal secondary transmitted consciousness emanating from the marginal living entities authentic bodily origins, Maha-Vishnu’s dreams within the mahat-tattva and incomplete. Krishna and his marginal devotee’s are inseparable even when his marginal servants choose even when His marginal servants choose to extend their consciousness to a secondary existence away from the full potentialities of their own original devotional bodily identity.

Because Krishna is the Supreme Personality of God and the cause of all causes, He anticipates such choices of His marginal energy (vigraha’s). In other words, for Krishna to be complete, the marginal potency, including their secondary transmitted consciousness, actually make Krishna the absolute-whole or simultaneously one and different (acintya-beda-beda-tattva)

It is because Krishna allows individuality, He knows in advance that some will choose to reject Him and their own Krishna conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha body and apt for the secondary option which is the mahat-tattva or material universe.

For Krishna to be complete, He creates this secondary option via His Maha-Vishnu expansion (technically Maha-Vishnu is an expansion of Balarama who is Krishna’s brother). The mahat-tattva is created ironically out of love for His marginal vigraha devotee’s because He would rather they choice to love or serve Him than be like a slave or ‘mindless’ servant without free will. Therefore one can stay in Krishna’s Autocratic Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm if they choose, or they can ‘consciously’ enter the impermanent mahat-tattva (never as their authentic bodily form as that body is perpetually part and parcel of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky).

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ have the same bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha.

The marginal potency or sparks emanating from the whole categorically means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form. Sometimes this is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from. It’s only a metaphor, a allegory, a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and bodily form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna).

In other words every living entity (marginal potency) has an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

As explained, it is important to understand that Krishna’s marginal potency bodily personalities are the Brahmajyoti!! It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, that a secondary non-Krishna conscious phenomenon may sometimes ‘consciously’ leave or be projected from their Krishna conscious authentic original bodily self within the imperishable abode of Krishna (Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). This is how the living entity (a secondary projected non-Krishna conscious self, enters or falls down to the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a inferior non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti existing in the mahat-tattva cloud.

Only in this way, via the mahat-tattva cloud (never as ones authentic body that can never leave Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm), can the Impersonal Brahmajyoti temporarily exist.

All the ‘individual bodily marginal sparks (souls, jiva’s, living entities or life force) of the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna, are actually collectively the Brahmajyoti Brahman effulgence or the Vaikuntha’s that is eternally glowing with individual personalities in perpetual devotional bodies.

It must be give emphasis to, that the mahat-tattva, also part of the Brahmajyoti, comes into existence due to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu in partnership (the parcel and the part can never be separated) with the non-Krishna conscious desires, aspirations, thoughts and dreams of the marginal living entities perpetually serving in either Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana, when they foolishly desire to be the master instead of the servant.

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks, jivas' or souls’ have the same bodily features like Him. Sparks emanating from the whole means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form that is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from.

The terminology of sparks, energies, atoms in the effulgence, and potency are only metaphors, a allegories - a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire.

Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna).

In is way it is clear that every living entity (marginal potency) has/is an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha whether they are aware of who they really are or not.

theist · March 29, 2007

Guest108108-To appear as an actually spark of living individual light cannot exist within the Personal original and only real reality or Brahmajyoti Known as Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha that takes up ¾ of creation, it can only exist in that part of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky that is covered by the dark cloud where the mahat-tattva also exists and under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu.

I question this. Is the Spiritual Sky not full illuminated by the bramajyoti also? I have wondered to myself about the possibility of those individual jivas that make up the Brahman being in a kind of incubator state (for lack of a better metaphor) until their desire to act as individuals manifests at which time their desire to be the enjoyer or serve the Enjoyer exhibits itself and determines the direction they will follow. I don't know. This is just mental on my part. This is my split mind thinking from the Brahman as Origin side.

As an aside if we really want to consider origins then we would all agree that we all issued forth from the Form of Krsna and placed in the Brahman or Goloka. A point of harmony which I know is not germain to the debate.

March 29, 2007

<b>Who</b> is Pradyumna Swami?

Sign In

Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

Recommended Posts

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites