Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

March 2, 2007

<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size=4 COLOR="red"><b>Please take advantage of higher saintly association that can ultimately give that which you can never ever receive on your own. The descendfing process is Krsna's way of delivering the conditioned soul from matter to pure spirit. Please dear brothers come to the light of conclusive truth stored in the heart of the acaryas and thereby get out of the darkness of misunderstanding. </font></b>

krsna · March 6, 2007

Jiva soul who is marginal energy

not superior energy like KRSNA

who sports in His own abode.: :pray: :pray: :pray:

March 6, 2007

<font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="red" size=5><B><I> Jiva soul who is marginal energy not superior energy like KRSNA </B></I></font>

March 18, 2007

This understanding that follows is a sastic point that should be undersood without the 'oh no' fear of understanding the truth of the jiva-tattva issue.

Such an understanding is clear, 'we are eternal persons' serving the 'Supreme Person Krsna'. Srila Prabhupada warned His disciples to keep away from His Godbrothers in the Gaudiya Math because of their impersonal understanding of Vaisnava teachings. The understanding from the Hare Krishna dicussion thread I found interesting. A quote from that thread is as follows: -

"We hear from the Vedic texts that the Supreme Brahman or Brahmajyoti exhibits Krishna’s effulgence, and therefore everything becomes illuminated. We can understand from Brahma-samhita that this Brahmajyoti, or the Brahman effulgence, emanates from the Personal body of Lord Krishna. Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of individuals to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks’ in Krishna’s effulgence are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency or sparks.

All marginal sparks, atoms in the effulgence, potencies, energies etc are all individual bodily personalities that originally manifested as an eternally Krishna Conscious body or sat-cit-ananda-vigraha.

It is only when they (the marginal devotee’s) foolishly transmit their secondary consciousness to the mahat-tattva, such knowledge of their originality is lost and the disease of Impersonalism (Mayavadism) overwhelms them. This disease of believing our origins are from Impersonal origins even affects many great Vaishnava devotee’s like Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja Swami, B.G. Narasingha and many others in both the Gaudiya Math and ISKCON.

Ultimately Krishna’s marginal potency bodily personalities are the Brahmajyoti!! It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, may sometimes go on to consciously leave Krishna’s imperishable abode and enter the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a secondary non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti. Only in this way via the mahat-tattva cloud can the Impersonal Brahmajyoti temporarily exist."

March 18, 2007

As already mentioned, don't have the 'oh no, here we go again' atitude if you want to understand the truth. Unedited section from the Hare Krishna thread by Pradyumna Swami: -

Krishna or God is a perpetual ‘Bodily-Person’ and so are all of the individual marginal potencies (souls) that emanate/surround Him.

We hear from the Vedic texts that the Supreme Brahman or Brahmajyoti exhibits Krishna’s (God’s) effulgence, and therefore everything becomes illuminated. We can understand from Brahma-samhita that this Brahmajyoti, or the Brahman effulgence, emanates from the Personal body of Lord Krishna.

Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls.

Even the terminology ‘originally manifested’ is incorrect because there is no beginning or end to Krishna or His marginal devotee’s. One thing is certain; all living entities that enter the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the far corner of the Spiritual Sky have all originated from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, not as their perpetual devotional Krishna Conscious body, but rather as a transformation of consciousness caused by non-Krishna conscious desires.

All marginal sparks, souls, jiva's, atoms in the effulgence, potencies, energies etc are all individual bodily personalities that originally manifested as an eternally Krishna (God) Conscious devotional body or sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. (Etenity, knowledge, bliss and form)

It is only when they (the marginal devotee’s as their authentic devotional body) foolishly transmit a 'secondary conscious phenomenon’ (jiva-bhutah) to the mahat-tattva (material universe), that such knowledge of their original service to Krishna in the transcendental body they really are, is temporarily lost (never severed due to their spiritual body being the source of their transmitted jiva bhutah consciousness) and the disease of Impersonalism (Mayavadism) and confinement to ethereal and biological vessels or bodies, overwhelms and traps their transferred secondary consciousness to the confines of the material temporary universe or mahat-tattva.

The unfortunate unknowledgeable view of believing our origins are from Impersonal origins even affects many great Vaishnava devotee’s like Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja Swami, B.G. Narasingha and many others in the Gaudiya Math. Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls. Their understanding of the jiva or souls origins is simply incorrect. The fact is, we are all eternal person as a perpetual transcendental body and always have been that bodily form. We can either accept that Krishna conscious bodily origins, or we can deny that body and consciously transfer our desires, aspirations, dreams and thoughts to he mahat-tattva (impermanent material universe of self centered importance).

Ultimately Krishna’s ‘marginal-potency-bodily personalities’ are the Brahmajyoti!!

It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, may sometimes go on to ‘consciously’ (never as the body they are eternally, that is their true selfless devotional unique self) leave Krishna’s imperishable abode and enter the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a secondary non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti. Only in this way, via the mahat-tattva cloud, can the Impersonal Brahmajyoti temporarily exist.

All the ‘individual bodily subsidiary sparks (vigraha’s) of the effulgence originating from Krishna’ are actually collectively the Brahmajyoti Brahman effulgence or Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha’s bodily personalities serving Krishna.

The mahat-tattva on the other hand, is also part and the parcel of the Brahmajyoti, and comes into existence due the dreams of Maha-Vishnu (the parcel or energetic) and simultaneously the non-Krishna conscious desires, aspirations, thoughts and dreams of the marginal living entities (the part or energy) perpetually serving the either Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana when they abandon that service. Without the part, (marginal) the parcel (Krishna) is not complete – without the marginal secondary transmitted consciousness emanating from the marginal living entities authentic bodily origins, Maha-Vishnu’s dreams within the mahat-tattva and incomplete. Krishna and his marginal devotee’s are inseparable even when his marginal servants choose even when His marginal servants choose to extend their consciousness to a secondary existence away from the full potentialities of their own original devotional bodily identity.

Because Krishna is the Supreme Personality of God and the cause of all causes, He anticipates such choices of His marginal energy (vigraha’s). In other words, for Krishna to be complete, the marginal potency, including their secondary transmitted consciousness, actually make Krishna the absolute-whole or simultaneously one and different (acintya-beda-beda-tattva)

It is because Krishna allows individuality, He knows in advance that some will choose to reject Him and their own Krishna conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha body and apt for the secondary option which is the mahat-tattva or material universe.

For Krishna to be complete, He creates this secondary option via His Maha-Vishnu expansion (technically Maha-Vishnu is an expansion of Balarama who is Krishna’s brother). The mahat-tattva is created ironically out of love for His marginal vigraha devotee’s because He would rather they choice to love or serve Him than be like a slave or ‘mindless’ servant without free will. Therefore one can stay in Krishna’s Autocratic Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm if they choose, or they can ‘consciously’ enter the impermanent mahat-tattva (never as their authentic bodily form as that body is perpetually part and parcel of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky).

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ have the same bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha.

The marginal potency or sparks emanating from the whole categorically means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form. Sometimes this is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from. It’s only a metaphor, a allegory, a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and bodily form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna).

In other words every living entity (marginal potency) has an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

As explained, it is important to understand that Krishna’s marginal potency bodily personalities are the Brahmajyoti!! It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, that a secondary non-Krishna conscious phenomenon may sometimes ‘consciously’ leave or be projected from their Krishna conscious authentic original bodily self within the imperishable abode of Krishna (Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). This is how the living entity (a secondary projected non-Krishna conscious self, enters or falls down to the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a inferior non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti existing in the mahat-tattva cloud.

Only in this way, via the mahat-tattva cloud (never as ones authentic body that can never leave Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm), can the Impersonal Brahmajyoti temporarily exist.

All the ‘individual bodily marginal sparks (souls, jiva’s, living entities or life force) of the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna, are actually collectively the Brahmajyoti Brahman effulgence or the Vaikuntha’s that is eternally glowing with individual personalities in perpetual devotional bodies.

It must be give emphasis to, that the mahat-tattva, also part of the Brahmajyoti, comes into existence due to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu in partnership (the parcel and the part can never be separated) with the non-Krishna conscious desires, aspirations, thoughts and dreams of the marginal living entities perpetually serving in either Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana, when they foolishly desire to be the master instead of the servant.

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks, jivas' or souls’ have the same bodily features like Him. Sparks emanating from the whole means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form that is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from.

The terminology of sparks, energies, atoms in the effulgence, and potency are only metaphors, a allegories - a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire.

Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna).

In is way it is clear that every living entity (marginal potency) has/is an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha whether they are aware of who they really are or not.

March 18, 2007

Thank you for this understanding, some believe Krishna could not bring an elephant through the eye of a needle, similarly, some foolishly believe we must of originated from the Brahmajyoti because they do not have the faith to believe all marginal so called sparks could actually have an original spiritual body of sat cit ananda vigraha. The ISKCON official view has always Known that and this helps one understand it further

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks, jivas' or souls’ have the same bodily features like Him. Sparks emanating from the whole means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form that is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from.

The terminology of sparks, energies, atoms in the effulgence, and potency are only metaphors, a allegories - a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire.

Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna).

In is way it is clear that every living entity (marginal potency) has/is an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha whether they are aware of who they really are or not.

March 18, 2007

it is clear that every living entity (marginal potency) has/is an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha whether they are aware of who they really are or not.

Great! If I'm already liberated, serving Krishna in his eternal pastimes, then nothing needs to change. Pass the hamburgers!

March 18, 2007

Can someone please translate into plain English what Brahma-Bhuttah and Venu Gopal dasa are trying to say.

The unfortunate unknowledgeable view of believing our origins are from Impersonal origins even affects many great Vaishnava devotee’s like Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja Swami, B.G. Narasingha and many others in the Gaudiya Math.

These Maharajas were only following the teaching given by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote in Sri Brahma Samhita. Text 21:

sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakrtis ca paraiva sa

TRANSLATION: The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

PURPORT: <b>Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays</b>, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krishna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Geeta it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

March 19, 2007

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote in Sri Brahma Samhita. Text 21:

‘The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship”

‘Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer’

‘That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity’

‘But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya’

All Impersonal aspects of existence are only made possible within the mahat-tattva cloud. Impersonalism is not possible in the Goloka-Vrndavana/ Vaikuntha realm (3/4 of the Spiritual Sky) except in Krishna Lila (like Jaya and Vijaya). Technically Krishna makes the rules, they are His rules because everything is His creation, and He can break them, change them or do what ever He wants.

In the Goloka-Vrndavana Planet, Krishna and Balarama kill’s demons – how is this possible in the Spiritual realm outside of the mahat-tattva cloud? Well, as Krishna Book tells us, all Demons are playing a part in a play to please Krishna and are always Krishna Conscious. Its all Lila and such pastimes are vast and inconceivable to a non-Vaishnava, especially when Krishna brings His pastimes to within the mahat-tattva (material universes).

Impersonal liberation in the non Krishna Conscious sense (not Lila), is achieved only after ones transmitted consciousness (jiva-bhutah) first travels through the mahat-tattva (ethereal and biological vessels in material existence) impermanent cloud and only then, can ones secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) become free from the shekels of ethereal and biological constraints however, even the merging into the Brahma- sayujya or tatastra sakti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti, or even into the bodily form of Maha-Vishnu, is temporary. As already emphasized, the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastra-sakti or Brahma-sayujya is only attained after one first enters the mahat-tattva, and only after first being ‘consciously’ transferred (yet never separated) from their perpetual original and authentic Spiritual body (sat-cit-ananda-vigraha) in Goloka-Vrndavana or the Vaikuntha’s.

It is therefore clear that Impersonal liberation is only attained after one first ‘consciously’ abandoning ones original perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, and then, after entering the mahat-tattva cloud and chasing selfish desires, dreams and thoughts of self importance and grander, further eventually abandon those impermanent ethereal and biological vessels out of frustration, then entering the tatastra inactive Impersonal conscious state. Remember, one has first ‘consciously transferred their consciousness to the mahat-tattva’, long, long, long before entering the tatastra condition of consciousness, One original transferred their jiva-bhutah secondary consciousness to the mahat-tattva in order to achieve autonomy from Krishna’s Personal association and their own eternal Krishna Conscious body they serve Krishna as.

This is what His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness means when he says:

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastra-sakti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

Srila Prabhupada further explains: -

“Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

"A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called Maya, is always available.

Srila Prabhupada: - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krishna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krishna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada: - “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their Lila with Krishna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahma-sayujya (Impersonal Brahmajoyti) after being killed three times as demons. This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent”.

These are important revelation at a time (the beginning of the 21st century) when even so-called advanced Guru’s and Swami’s in various Vaishnava traditions, foolishly mislead others to believe their origins are from the Brahma-sayujya, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Tatastra-sakti. All these states of impersonal consciousness are only attained after first passing through the mahat-tattva or creation of Maha-Vishnu.

The Vedic texts such as the Brahma samhita are the prayers of Lord Brahma to Krishna however Brahma’s view of the creation is from within the mahat-tattva, in fact the Vedic texts are written to glorify Krishna and His devotee’s for the benefit of those trapped within the Impersonal mahat-tattva. If one carefully studies the teachings of the Srimad Bhagavatam, the viewpoint of our Impersonal so-called origins from the pertain to the tatastra or marginal potency that is located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies is actually referring to ones existence in the Impersonal varigatedness of the mahat-tattva.

As already stated, that’s why Prabhupada says, “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastra or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. – Meaning outside the impermanent realm of the Impersonal mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the Spiritual World and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krishna says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Krishna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krishna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Krishna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prison house, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prison house. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that”.

ALL those who choose to forget Krishna and enter the forgetful temporary material universe (mahat-tattva) have an original nitya-siddha body. Every living entity has an original nitya-siddhasvarupa-sat-cit-ananda-atma-vigraha body they realize if they are Krishna Conscious, or cannot realize when not Krishna Conscious

Only after many births confined to ethereal and biological containers or bodies within the mahat-tattva, does one eventually no longer desire to be ‘consciously extended’ to those bodies and contained in those impermanent vessels or bodies of suffering and despair within the smaller inconsequential mahat-tattva cloud or material manifestation. It is Impossible for such inactive consciousnesses to exist in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha domain (3/4 of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti) or within the active dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva.

March 19, 2007

It must be emphasized -- that such an inactive state of consciousness is generally only attained after first being consciously transferred (Not in ones original genuine Krishna Conscious body because ones perpetual bodily form never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha) to the mahat-tattva cloud and only then after being active in ethereal and biological bodies for millions of births and deaths, until one becomes fed-up with those impermanent decaying bodies supplied by Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva.

Only then, while immersed deeply in forgetfulness of who’s one’s authentic perpetual bodily identity is outside the mahat-tattva, and the frustration with ethereal and biological vessels one has taken shelter of for so long, does one seek out the Impersonal solution. Such an inactive state of individual consciousness (jiva-nikaya) and its motionless quiescent place called the Impersonal Brahma-sayujya and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti can never exist in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti that takes up 3/4 of Krishna’s Creation. Such mysterious non-Krishna conscious impermanent realities exist only because of the mahat-tattva dark cloud that is created by Maha-Vishnu for those who do not wish to be with Krishna.

Unlike the projected jiva-bhutah relocated consciousness, the ethereal and biological vessels are eternally part and parcel of the mahat-tattva (the impermanent material universal creation). Such vessels within the mahat-tattva are only obtained after ones extended secondary consciousness first enters the mahat-tattva, which is a dark existent (real but temporary) impermanent cloud where the four-armed expansion of Balarama, (Krishna’s brother) the dreaming Maha-Vishnu, and His wife Maya Devi (an expansion of Lakshmi) resides and manages, as shown above.

Unfortunately it also appears many scholars are getting Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha permanent Spiritual sky mixed up with Maha-Vishnu’s impermanent mahat-tattva.

The biological human body is a garment provided by Maha-Vishnu that is made up of billions of other embodied jiva-bhutah’s each at different stages of evolving from a single cell through to complex organs on their path of evolving back to the biological human form. Human biological existence on the middle planetary systems is not possible without the complex existence of lower life forms. Biological life can only be sustained within the mahat-tattva have ‘feeding’ off other biological bodies; this will be fully explained in later chapters. To enter into the lower biological species in the first place, the embodied jiva-bhutah conscious had fallen (a further fall down) from the biological human platform. The biological human body is achieved (covers or further contains the ethereal vessel) after falling from the heavenly sub-space universe. The heavenly planets are achieved after one abandons their service to Krishna in the Goloka-Vrndavana, or Vishnu in the Vaikuntha’s, by consciously (not as their true bodily form and identity) leaving Vaikuntha and entering the mahat-tattva cloud as already explained. The ethereal vessels in the sub-space heavenly and hellish realms can never be proved as an existence by means of the biological human body and the secular gross material facilities surrounding the human biological body, no-matter how scientifically or technological advance our human society becomes.

The five realities achieved or re-realized in the mahat-tattva are – 1. The transcendental abode of Maha-Vishnu, Vishnu in the Vaikuntha’s or Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana, that is only realized as one awakens from their secondary relocated consciousness and realizes whom they really are serving Krishna ‘outside’ of the mahat-tattva.

2. The sub-space subtly refined heavenly and vulgar hellish material universes where the jiva-bhutah consciousness is constrained in ethereal bodies.

3. The secular-space middle gross material universes where the ethereal vessel is further restricted in a biological container.

4. The hard and awkward liberation from both those vehicle constraints, where the jiva-bhutah amends into a ‘dormant’ transformation called the jiva-nikaya motionless consciousness which becomes (not enters) as another individual inactive consciousness (tatastra-sakti) and part and parcel of the Brahma-sayujya or Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

5. Merging (as an individual dormant consciousness) into the body of Maha-Vishnu either by choice or forced to at the time of annihilation of the material universes.

The smaller mahat-tattva (material universes) phenomenon on the other hand is a dark perishable cloud, as shown above, that is also situated in the Spiritual Sky and surrounded by the superior Vaikuntha Planets that vastly out number the insignificant material universes within the mahat-tattva cloud. This dark impermanent cloud is a discoloration within the Spiritual Sky and is constructed for the mutinous desires, thoughts or dreams of those individuals who no longer wish to be with Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Krishna is the original Supreme Personality from whence all other individual perpetual bodily personalities (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or energy) are sustained from. Krishna also expands Himself from His Personal Goloka-Vrndavana abode and takes up residents on the infinite number of Vaikuntha planets; however Balarama, Krishna’s brother in Goloka-Vrndavana, appears as Sankarshana and is the origin of Maha-Vishnu who goes on and creates the mahat-tattva.

Lord Krishna, the original Godhead and cause of all causes, firsts expands as Balarama who resides with Him in His Personal abode. It is Balarama who creates and maintains the dark cloud (mahat-tattva) that is encircled by overwhelming presents of perpetual Vaikuntha Planets. It is within the mahat-tattva, the four-armed sleeping expansion of Balarama appears. He is known as Maha-Vishnu and is accompanied by His wife Maya Devi. Together they build, administer and create the facilities to fulfill the desires, thoughts and dreams of those who no longer yearn to remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm and who prefer to ‘consciously’ transfer their ‘self-awareness’ or secondary conscious state (jiva-sakti or jiva-bhutah) to Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation. One has to understand Maha-Vishnu’s appearance in the mahat-tattva with great intelligence because the material energy is also emanating from Him. Maha-Vishnu is the original source of the impermanent material energy or mahat-tattva, just as the sun is the source of the sunshine. The sunshine cannot cover the sun globe, nor can the material energy, being an emanation from of Maha-Vishnu, cover Him. Maha-Vishnu is simultaneously within and without of the mahat-tattva, He is in the three modes of material energy, but actually the three modes of material energy cannot cover Him. The highly intellectual philosophers understand this. In other words, although Maha-Vishnu appears to be within the material energy yet is never covered by it.

Maha-Vishnu therefore provides the bodily vessels and their material surroundings that make the transmitted jiva-bhutah’s desires a reality however, even though it is all-real, it is also temporary and for that reason the dreams of Maha-Vishnu are considered an illusion. All non-Krishna conscious dreams or disloyal thoughts of self importance are transmitted as the jiva-bhutah consciousness (the soul or life force) and then contained in outward ethereal or biological vessels (supplied by Maha-Vishnu) or may eventually, after many, many births and deaths, become silent in an impersonal inactive un-bodied liberated state that both belong to and are only achieved after ones secondary projected consciousness has entered the mahat-tattva (the impermanent material universal creation).

As explained, the non-Krishna conscious dream, seditious feelings and requirements of self-importance is expressed as a secondary conscious condition known as the jiva-bhutah consciousness which is transferred out of the imperishable Vaikuntha realm to the perishable mahat-tattva cloud phenomenon also in the Spiritual Sky. Then entire Spiritual Sky or creation is further known as the Brahmajyoti, as shown above.

Once the transmitted jiva-bhutah consciousness enters the mahat-tattva cloud, it is immediately contained in outward ethereal or biological vessels that belong to and are provided from within the mahat-tattva by Maha-Vishnu, or eventually, after many, many births of trying to enjoy those bodily vessels, the transmitted jiva-bhutah consciousness may discover the existence of an Impersonal inactive outlet state of consciousness (jiva-nikaya) if they continue to deny the Krishna Conscious bodily origins of their transmitted secondary consciousness transferred to the mahat-tattva from the outside Vaikuntha realm. The Impersonal condition, only found after going through the mahat-tattva in ethereal and biological vessels, releases one from being trapped in those impermanent decaying vessels. The jiva-nikaya condition of inactive consciousness is only achieved after one is impersonally liberated from those bodies by withdrawing into a dreamless, thoughtless and desireless condition of consciousness they foolishly believe is becoming one with God and the universe. Maha-Vishnu, the Over-Lord, facilitator and provider within the mahat-tattva or material universe, does also allowthe jiva-nikaya impersonalists to merge into His body but they certainly do not become Maha-Vishnu, they simply remain dormant there until Maha-Vishnu creates the next mahat-tattva manifestation. Such dormant jiva-nikaya dormant consciousnesses eventually fall down to the jiva-bhutah condition and become again contained in ethereal and biological vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu.

Both states of consciousness, namely the active embodied jiva-bhutah consciousness that is confined to ethereal and biological vessels, as well as the ‘play-acting imaginary oneness with the universe, which is actually just an inactive condition of individual consciousness called the jiva-nikaya liberated position, are both only attained after first ‘consciously’ entering the mahat-tattva from ‘the outside surrounding Vaikuntha planets’ where ones perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form exists. The so-called dormant jiva-nikaya dreamless condition, where ones consciousness is individually merged into the ‘supposed Impersonal Brahma-sayujya or Impersonal Brahmajyotiis actually no more than just a consciously non-active place or reality within the mahat-tattva creation where ones secondary consciousness, that changes from the active jiva-bhutah condition to the inactive jiva-nikaya condition, remains dormant. This Impersonal stationary condition is not full of an unlimited number of individual ‘inactive’ jiva-nikaya, it is all those transmitted jiva-nikaya consciousnesses congregated together that are the stationary effulgent Brahma-sayujya or Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks, jivas' or souls’ have the same bodily features like Him. Sparks emanating from the whole means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form that is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from.

The terminology of sparks, energies, atoms in the effulgence, and potency are only metaphors, a allegories - a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna).

March 19, 2007

Krsna doesn't kill any demons in the spiritual world. CaitanyaCaritamrta says Visnu kills the demons and he does this in the material world. There are no demons to kill in Vaikuntha for only devotees exist in Vaikuntha.

The maha-tattva is described in Srimad Bhagavatam. What you say about Mahad tattva is all wrong. Read the Bhagavatam before you preach wrong ideas.

theist · March 19, 2007

It must be emphasized -- that such an inactive state of consciousness is generally only attained after first being consciously transferred (Not in ones original genuine Krishna Conscious body because ones perpetual bodily form never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha) to the mahat-tattva cloud and only then after being active in ethereal and biological bodies for millions of births and deaths, until one becomes fed-up with those impermanent decaying bodies supplied by Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva.

I see this as the linch pin in the argument for the Iskcon position. Because there is no past and future in transcendance the original form of the spiritsoul never leaves even though he has fallen into time and space. Only the consciousness has been thrown, like when in a daydream. When he awakens/returns he will be exactly positioned before he fell therefore there was no fall from Vaikuntha/Krsnaloka. In that sense both sides are correct. This is also seen in the Tal Fruit letter.

Of course to really understand this we must go there. Until then, "nothing to get hung about"........ "tulasi fields forever."

March 20, 2007

So they are saying none of the people in the material world are really here. We are all in Vaikuntha right now. Brilliant.

So I have a question to ask.

Why does Lord Caitanya come into the material world to awaken the souls from illusion if they aren't really here.

Since the root cause of the problem is that sometimes a soul will desire to seek happiness in Maya, leaving Krishna, then why doesn't Lord Chaitanya busy himself with preaching to these people in Vaikuntha?

Do they have preaching campaigns in Goloka?

Do they have Jehova Witness type preachers going door to door warning people about what will happen to them if they forget Krishna or serving Krishna?

Pity if they don't because if they did then the material world would never have been populated in the first place would it?

theist · March 20, 2007

Your questions are basically nonsensical, sorry.

Lord Caitanya comes and sends other avatars to awaken the sleeping souls. Dreams have a real existence...as illusions. Once awake the illusion or dream of material existence has no meaning to you.

I am not taking any side in this debate but the Iskcon position has a point that the opposition has yet to answer in any positive way.

Please speak to the fact that there is no time (as in past and future) in the Spiritual Sky and it's relevency to the point proposed.

Why don't you take up Venu Gopals point as quoted below.

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> It must be emphasized -- that such an inactive state of consciousness is generally only attained after first being consciously transferred (Not in ones original genuine Krishna Conscious body because ones perpetual bodily form never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha) to the mahat-tattva cloud and only then after being active in ethereal and biological bodies for millions of births and deaths, until one becomes fed-up with those impermanent decaying bodies supplied by Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Shakti-Fan · March 20, 2007

Your questions are basically nonsensical, sorry.

Lord Caitanya comes and sends other avatars to awaken the sleeping souls. Dreams have a real existence...as illusions. Once awake the illusion or dream of material existence has no meaning to you.

I am not taking any side in this debate but the Iskcon position has a point that the opposition has yet to answer in any positive way.

Please speak to the fact that there is no time (as in past and future) in the Spiritual Sky and it's relevency to the point proposed.

Why don't you take up Venu Gopals point as quoted below.

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> It must be emphasized -- that such an inactive state of consciousness is generally only attained after first being consciously transferred (Not in ones original genuine Krishna Conscious body because ones perpetual bodily form never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha) to the mahat-tattva cloud and only then after being active in ethereal and biological bodies for millions of births and deaths, until one becomes fed-up with those impermanent decaying bodies supplied by Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

It must be emphasized -- that such an inactive state of consciousness is generally only attained after first being consciously transferred (Not in ones original genuine Krishna Conscious body because ones perpetual bodily form never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha) to the mahat-tattva cloud and only then after being active in ethereal and biological bodies for millions of births and deaths, until one becomes fed-up with those impermanent decaying bodies supplied by Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva.

Conditioned souls in the material world never had a spiritual body. The spiritual body of a conditioned jiva only exists in a latent form, like a seed form. How will that form come out? Here's an interesting description by Srila Narayana Maharaja about how one comes to the higher levels of bhakti:

suddha-sattva-visesatma

prema-suryamsu-samya-bhak

rucibhis citta-masrnya-

krd asau bhava ucyate

["When devotional service is executed on the transcendental platform of pure goodness, it is like a sun-ray of love for Krsna. At such a time, devotional service causes the heart to be softened by various tastes, and one is then situated in bhava (emotion)." (Madhya lila 23.5)]

We must know what is sattva, and then we must know what is suddha-sattva. Sattva means existence. This body is material sattva. It has no actual existence. All kinds of existence in this world and that transcendental world are sattva. Sattva is of two kinds: Suddha-sattva and misra-sattva. All the souls who are captured in the material energy are now misra-sattva. One who gives up the material sattva and considers himself an infinitesimal part of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is suddha-anucit. Transcendental substance is called suddha-sattva.

Next, what is suddha-sattva-visesatma? What is this type of suddha-sattva? Baladeva Prabhu is the origin of all suddha-sattva, transcendental existence, and everything that exists in this world also comes from Him. He is the presiding Deity of sandini-sakti, Krsna's potency of existence. Everything that comes directly from this sandini-sakti in the form of Baladeva is suddha-sattva. Do you understand?

Suddha-sattva-visesatma. Hladini-sakti and samvit-sakti belong to the category of the svarupa-sakti of Krsna. Krsna's svarupa-sakti is hladini and samvit. Hladini-sakti is love and affection, with ananda. Samvit means knowledge. From that knowledge all the various kinds of bhava to serve Krsna which are in Radhika may partly come in the jiva. The essence of hladini and samvit, on the platform of sandini, is suddha-sattva visesatma.

How will it come? It will not come by any sadhana that can be performed by a jiva. It will come by krpa-siddha. What is krpa-siddha? It is perfection by mercy. Mercy is of two kinds. The first is Krsna's mercy, and that includes the mercy of Srimati Radhika, Vrnda, and all tadiya, associates. Secondly, mercy comes from high-class devotees of Krsna, like Sankara, Narada Gosvami, Uddhava, and even more advanced than that, Rupa Gosvami, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, our Gurudeva, our Srila Swami Maharaja, and others in this line.

March 20, 2007

Krsna doesn't kill any demons in the spiritual world. CaitanyaCaritamrta says Visnu kills the demons and he does this in the material world. There are no demons to kill in Vaikuntha for only devotees exist in Vaikuntha.

The maha-tattva is described in Srimad Bhagavatam. What you say about Mahad tattva is all wrong. Read the Bhagavatam before you preach wrong ideas.

You misunderstand what Venu gopal is quoting. Even the mahat tattva is in the Spiritual WORLD, it is seen as a cloud in the the corner of the Spirtual Universe or Brahmajyoti. Is not Vrndavana and Mayapur in the Spirtual world if you have the pure devotional eyes to see it?

Only in mundane eyes does one view 'demons in Vrndavana' as non-devotees when in actual fact they are great devotees serving Krishna as a demon.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Sri Caitanya Siksamrita describes the demons KRISHNA KILLED IN HIS VRNDAVANA pastimes and the anarthas (unwanted things) with which they may be associated.

Putana (the witch) - the pseudo guru.

Sakatasura (the cart demon) - carrying the burden of a cart-load of old and new bad habits, lethargy and vanity.

Trinavarta (the whirlwind demon) - false pride which comes from material scholarship, which leads to bogus philosophies.

Deliverance of Nalakuvara and Manigriva (breaking the twin arjuna trees) - Arrogant pride which comes from puffed-up prestige, which is rooted in a madness for wealth.

Vatsasura (the calf demon) - a childish type of mentality which gives rise to a type of greediness which results in a wicked type of mischievousness.

Bakasura (stork demon) - Cunning duplicity, deceptiveness and false types of behavior.

Aghasura (the snake demon) - Cruelty and violence.

Brahma-vimohana Pastime (Lord Brahma steals the cowherd boys and calves) - mundane activities and speculative scholasticism.

Dhenukasura (the ass demon) - gross materialistic intelligence, ignorance of spiritual knowledge.

Kaliya (chastising the Kaliya serpent) - brutality and treachery.

Extinguishing the Forest Fire - inter-communal discord among Vaishnavas.

Pralambasura (killing the Pralamba demon) - lusty inclinations; desire for personal gain and honor.

Second Forest Fire - disturbance of religious principles and interference with religious people by those who are atheist.

Brahmanas Performing Sacrifice - indifference toward Krishna caused by pride because of one's status (position) in varnasrama.

Overcoming the Pride of Indra - demigod worship, and the tendency to think "I am Supreme."

Nanda Maharaja Captured by Varuna - thinking that spiritual life can be enhanced by intoxication.

Nanda Maharaja Swallowed by Vidyadhara (the snake) - rescuing the truth of Krishna consciousness from being swallowed by the impersonalists.

Sankhacuda (killing the conch-shell demon and getting the jewel that was stolen by him) - proneness toward acquiring name and fame, and desire for sensuous enjoyment, under the plea of devotion.

Aristasura (the bull demon) - pride arising from indulging in false religions invented by cheaters which causes neglect of devotional service (bhakti).

Kesi (the horse demon) - The feeling that "I am a great devotee and spiritual master."

Vyomasura (the demon in the sky) - associating with thieves and other rascals, and with people who put themselves forward as avataras.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura says: "The devotee who worships the holy name should first petition the Lord for the strength to cast out all these unfavorable tendencies and should pray thus before Lord Hari on a daily basis. By doing this regularly, the devotee's heart will eventually become purified. Sri Krishna has killed a number of demons which may arise in the kingdom of the heart, so in order to destroy these problems, a devotee must cry very humbly before the Lord and admit defeat then the Lord will nullify all contaminations."ASOMATINAN

March 20, 2007

Great! If I'm already liberated, serving Krishna in his eternal pastimes, then nothing needs to change. Pass the hamburgers!

You grossly misunderstand BOTH Spiritual life and material conciousness! Read careflly the following if you want to understand the difference between Krishna CONSCIOUSNESS and selfish material CONSCIOUSNESS

The Jiva-soul: Its Origin, Nature, And Potentialities by Pradyumna Swami

The perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, known as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana and encircled by the imperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets, where Krishna’s numerable expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) takes up 3/4 of the imperishable Spiritual Sky or total creation.

Krishna’s planet is centered above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets, both transcendental abodes are made up of living entities (individual bodily personalities and Krishna’s marginal potency) with eternal devotional bodies, where as the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe only 1/4 of creation), as well as its impersonal escape, is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts and desires of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities. Such dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to the mahat-tattva or temporary material manifestation, due to their desire not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body. It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, becomes contained by ethereal and biological vessels provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu.

Krishna’s subsidiary or marginal living entities make Him inclusive and all pervading like the sun and the sunrays, yet both Krishna and His marginal potency always remain individual persons as those original authentic perpetual person in/as transcendental bodies that is always who they really are for eternity.

In other words such spiritual bodies in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Empire are not vessels or container or a body one is housed in, no, it is not like that in the perpetual spiritual Sky because those bodies are who one really is for infinity.

The energy of Lord Krishna is divided into three: para, kshetrajna and avidya. The para energy is actually the energy of the Supreme Lord Himself; the kshetrajna energy is the individual living entities or the marginal potency of Krishna that are all originally eternal bodily persons like Krishna yet always in the constitutional position of eternal servants and the enjoyed, while Krishna is the enjoyer; and the avidya energy is the material world (mahat-tattva), under the influential control of Maya-Devi, the wife of the creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu.

Never was there a time when all the individual transcendental bodies (marginal potency, soul or atma-jiva-vigraha devotee’s) did not exist, nor in the future will such original bodies cease to be. This is confirmed as follows –

‘Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be’ - Bhagavad-Gita as it is chapter 12 text 2.

Krishna or God is a perpetual ‘Bodily-Person’ and so are all of the individual marginal potencies (souls) that emanate/surround Him.

We hear from the Vedic texts that the Supreme Brahman or Brahmajyoti exhibits Krishna’s (God’s) effulgence, and therefore everything becomes illuminated. We can understand from Brahma-samhita that this Brahmajyoti, or the Brahman effulgence, emanates from the Personal body of Lord Krishna.

Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls.

Even the terminology ‘originally manifested’ is incorrect because there is no beginning or end to Krishna or His marginal devotee’s. One thing is certain; all living entities that enter the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the far corner of the Spiritual Sky have all originated from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, not as their perpetual devotional Krishna Conscious body, but rather as a transformation of consciousness caused by non-Krishna conscious desires.

All marginal sparks, souls, jiva's, atoms in the effulgence, potencies, energies etc are all individual bodily personalities that originally manifested as an eternally Krishna (God) Conscious devotional body or sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. (Etenity, knowledge, bliss and form)

It is only when they (the marginal devotee’s as their authentic devotional body) foolishly transmit a 'secondary conscious phenomenon’ (jiva-bhutah) to the mahat-tattva (material universe), that such knowledge of their original service to Krishna in the transcendental body they really are, is temporarily lost (never severed due to their spiritual body being the source of their transmitted jiva bhutah consciousness) and the disease of Impersonalism (Mayavadism) and confinement to ethereal and biological vessels or bodies, overwhelms and traps their transferred secondary consciousness to the confines of the material temporary universe or mahat-tattva.

March 20, 2007

Conditioned souls in the material world never had a spiritual body. The spiritual body of a conditioned jiva only exists in a latent form, like a seed form.

Your understanding and Srila Narayana Maharaja viewpoint is incomplete (mostly wrong) and not correctly understood. We all have an original sat-cit-ananda-vigraha body from whence our present mundane consciousness is transmitted from. Our Spiritual devotional Krishna Conscious jivatma VIGRAHA body is eternal and is the source of our present consciousness (jiva-bhutah) trapped in the maha-tattva.

This is what His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness means when he says:

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastra-sakti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

Srila Prabhupada further explains: -

“Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

Devotee -: In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?

Prabhupada: ‘Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there." But he insists, "Oh, I must go. I must go.All right, you go at your risk. That's all. And you suffer. What can be done?" Because you are son of God--God has got independence, full independence, almighty--therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that "I must go and enjoy independently," so God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy. Beginning from Lord Brahma down to the worms in the stool, gradually, according to your work, according to your desire, you manufacture your different types of body and enjoy and suffer. That's all. That is explained. Prakrti-stho hi bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan. And as soon as you became entangled in different types of punishment, not enjoyment but punishment.

So in this way, being punished in different types of life, when we come to the sense... That sense can come in human form of life. When we understand that "I have travelled through, in, transmigrated from many species of life, but every life I can see, not that I have forgotten. Even if I have forgotten, I can see the suffering of the cats, dogs, tiger, man, bulldog and everyone. So I had all these lives in the past. Evolutionary process, I have come to this human. So I suffered all these things. So when the question comes, "Why shall I suffer?" then the inquiry--this is called, Vedanta-sutra, athato brahma-jijnasa--the inquiry of God begins. That is human life. Yes.

theist · March 20, 2007

The Iskcon position is very persuasive. But then my mind is easily swayed. Fascinating to contemplate. This is very deep subject matter.

March 20, 2007

So they are saying none of the people in the material world are really here. We are all in Vaikuntha right now. Brilliant.

So I have a question to ask.

Why does Lord Caitanya come into the material world to awaken the souls from illusion if they aren't really here.

Since the root cause of the problem is that sometimes a soul will desire to seek happiness in Maya, leaving Krishna, then why doesn't Lord Chaitanya busy himself with preaching to these people in Vaikuntha?

Do they have preaching campaigns in Goloka?

Do they have Jehova Witness type preachers going door to door warning people about what will happen to them if they forget Krishna or serving Krishna?

Pity if they don't because if they did then the material world would never have been populated in the first place would it?

In a straightforward way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, similarly to the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel. The non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version (that is real but temporary) of the self. Keep in mind on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, such counterfeit bodily creations and their surroundings are temporary and therefore cannot exist within the same space that all their perpetual bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha).

In this way such temporary creations or thoughts are expelled from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual aspect of the Spiritual Sky by ones own selfish independent desires and transferred to a far distant place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, creations or desires. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

A basic instance of how one selfishly desires to be served like Krishna, instead of serving Him, causing one to be bewildered and thus consciously falling from their perpetual body into a secondary forgetful state of consciousness, is when one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time. One as the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies that the body is dreaming that appear real while they are sleeping. In a comparable way, ones dreams or thoughts as the secondary jiva-bhutah consciousness create a separate reality within the mahat-tattva (material universe) that is real but temporary.

In this way the thoughts of ones lower self are unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, that are illusionary and not real. This is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming causes our existence in the material universe. There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. However if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the perpetual Kingdom of Krishna. To experience such self-centered dreams and desires their consciousness is extended to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body).

Another way of understanding the paradox of the eternal liberated state (nitya-siddha) and the eternally conditioned state (nitya-baddha) simultaneously existing at the same time, is within a large building the basement is always at the bottom and the penthouse suite is always at the top. When one is in the penthouse, that does not mean the basement does not exist, it is always there at the bottom of the building.

In the same way, both the nitya-baddha and nitya-siddha condition exists eternally and at the same time, it just depends on which condition of consciousness one is in. The nitya-siddha atma-vigraha condition is one's real Krishna conscious bodily form, while the nitya-baddha condition is illusion and the concoctions of non-Krishna conscious desires. The Srimad-Bhagavatam also tell us that the Kingdom of Krishna is a timeless energetic abode of boundless pastimes where nothing ever perishes which confirms one has an eternal body that is always there. Everything in Krishna's Abode is always everlastingly there because of the uninterrupted and enduring nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or domicile.

As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah teleported conscious condition.

In a familiar way, when one is awake in their biological body, or when that body is asleep and one is dreaming, it is the same 'self' existing on two completely different levels of consciousness, one as the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies that appear real while they are dreaming. In a similar way, ones dreams or thoughts create a separate reality that is real but temporary (unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping) and only exists within the mahat-tattva cloud that is the creation of Maha-Vishnu. Ones consciousness is only transferred there when one is unaware (due to self centered desires) of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body).

A rudimentary illustration of this is when one is alert in their biological body, or when that body is sound asleep and dreaming, it is the matching 'self' that is active on two completely diverse echelon of awareness, one as the biological body, the other as hallucination or flights of the imagination that emerge as authentic and real while one is identifying with their biological dreaming thoughts. In a comparable way as previously explained, ‘ones dreams or thoughts from the absolute level create a separate reality that is real but temporary’. Such thoughts therefore are not hallucinations because on this level they are real. Keep in mind that on the absolute level thoughts, dreams and actions are all equal however, thoughts or dreams that are not Krishna conscious cannot stay in the Vaikuntha realm and they are therefore transferred (not as ones perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha-body) to the mahat-tattva or material universe as transmitted consciousness or the non-Krishna conscious lower-self.

This separate reality or lower consciousness is an extension of one’s-self (atma-jiva-vigraha) and is real yet subject to forgetfulness and bewilderment due to the desire to be away from Krishna and no longer depend directly on Him through pure unalloyed unconditional loving devotional service. Ones consciousness then falls to the conditional state of consciousness called the jiva-bhutah non-Krishna conscious active state of awareness. In this state one still depends on Krishna via His Maha-Vishnu expansions however, they are mostly unaware of this fact and foolishly believe they directly and alone create their existence and destiny within the confines of the mahat-tattva or material universe. This ‘individual lower self’ is transferred to the mahat-tattva and exists as trapped consciousness within ethereal and biological bodies within the impermanent reality of the mahat-tattva or ‘material universal dream that is under the jurisdiction of Krishna's Brother Balarama in His Maha-Vishnu form’. The material universes’ within the mahat-tattva are the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu - from Pradyumna Swami's book

March 20, 2007

You misunderstand what Venu gopal is quoting. Even the mahat tattva is in the Spiritual WORLD, it is seen as a cloud in the the corner of the Spirtual Universe or Brahmajyoti. Is not Vrndavana and Mayapur in the Spirtual world if you have the pure devotional eyes to see it?

Only in mundane eyes does one view 'demons in Vrndavana' as non-devotees when in actual fact they are great devotees serving Krishna as a demon.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Sri Caitanya Siksamrita describes the demons KRISHNA KILLED IN HIS VRNDAVANA pastimes and the anarthas (unwanted things) with which they may be associated.

Krishna doesn't kill demons. Visnu does.

===============================

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.11-12

nārāyaṇa, catur-vyūha, matsyādy-avatāra

yuga-manvantarāvatāra, yata āche āra

sabe āsi' kṛṣṇa-ańge haya avatīrṇa

aiche avatare kṛṣṇa bhagavān pūrṇa

Lord Nārāyaṇa, the four primary expansions [Vāsudeva, Sańkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna and Aniruddha], Matsya and the other līlā incarnations, the yuga-avatāras, the manv-antara incarnations and as many other incarnations as there are — all descend in the body of Lord Kṛṣṇa. In this way the complete Supreme Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself, appears.

ataeva viṣṇu takhana kṛṣṇera śarīre

viṣṇu-dvāre kare kṛṣṇa asura-saḿhāre

At that time, therefore, Lord Viṣṇu is present in the body of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and Lord Kṛṣṇa kills the demons through Him.

March 20, 2007

Theist where did you read that there is no past or future in Goloka?

THere is astakalia lila in Goloka and that means there is a passage of time from morning to noon to night. Past and future do exist. Goloka is not a static reality.

March 20, 2007

Read carefully and try to understand

The Kingdom of God (Krishna) is an Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional abode of unlimited pastimes that is forever lasting and never aging. Krishna’s marginal potency or energy are eternal servants known as the atma- (self)-jiva- (soul)-vigraha (unending form) transcendental body (the soul's real spiritual Krishna Conscious self and form). All marginal bodily individuals can never fall down to the material universe nevertheless; it does not mean one can never fall down from their perpetual bodily self.

How is this paradox possible when one can never fall down, yet also fall down?

On the absolute level ones thoughts, dreams and desires are real however, when one no longer wants to be with Krishna, such dreams and desires become temporary and can only exist in that condition in the mahat-tattva.

How this happens is through a secondary conscious transformation that is activated when one no longer desires to be with Krishna. Such fall down is only ‘consciously’ feasible by means of a transformative capability made achievable by a secondary conscious version of the self that is transmitted from ones original authentic body and out of the Vaikuntha realm and the projected into the mahat-tattva cloud. Remember, during this transformation of consciousness, ones perpetual Krishna Conscious atma-jiva-vigraha body always remains in its original devotional position within the Vaikuntha’s or Goloka-Vrndavana and can ever never fall down. The secondary conscious lower self is transmitted as consciousness called the jiva-bhutah or jiva-sakti consciousness. This secondary consciousness is an extension of one’s real perpetual self and form that is eternally serving in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana and only manifests or comes into existence when one denies their original Krishna Consciousness.

When the light of Krishna Consciousness is there, this dark sub-conscious version of the self (jiva-bhutah) cannot exist however, when such dark consciousness does exist, one can longer see whom they really are serving Krishna.

As emphasized, one never falls down as their permanent devotional Krishna conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-jivatma-vigraha–bodily form. As soon as one desires to enjoy or take pleasure in their existence separately from Krishna, they are only sub-consciously transferred to the mahat-tattva or material impermanent manifestation where they can shape, carve out and choose their own ethereal and biological vessels and destiny that are all provided within the mahat-tattva by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu. In this way it must be clearly understood that ones secondary projected consciousness is the jiva-bhutah or jiva-sakti lower self, which is only activated when one no longer wants to serve Krishna in His perpetual Kingdom in their perpetual bodies in either Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana.

When we foolishly deny who we are as Krishna’s eternal servant, then struggle against our devotional inheritance or nature, uncertainty develops and cause our ‘now limited jiva-bhutah conscious awareness’ to become covered by ethereal and biological bodies or vessels that impound our consciousness (jiva-bhutah) within the restricted realms of the mahat-tattva. Eventually, after many births, we loose control over who we have imagined ourselves to be within the mahat-tattva. In our continual search for happiness; we frantically possess millions upon millions of different ethereal and biological bodily identities and personalities however, non of them gives us permanent pleasure because of the impermanent nature of the material universe or mahat-tattva..

The natural eternal constitutional position of ‘ones ‘authentic bodily self' (atma-jiva-vigraha Krishna Conscious bodily form) is forever engaged in an infinite number of pastimes and relationships serving Krishna. Nitya-siddha, or our eternal constitutional marginal condition of servitude or loving selfless unconditional devotion to Krishna, is the ultimate natural, original and perpetually nature of ones innovative active Krishna Conscious state. Such a Krishna Conscious condition is our genuine bodily form or self that is forever dedicated to devotional selfless service to Krishna and His pure devotees.

Our atma-jiva-vigraha perpetual Krishna Conscious body represents what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never decays or changes yet at the same time there are always unlimited transcendental changes and devotional adjustments going on within unlimited pastimes that are illimitable active in the present, beyond the concept of past and future, birth or death.

The Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (the supreme imperishable Kingdom of God) feature of the Spiritual Sky exists in the majority of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti (3/4 of the creation). It is a place where past and future does not exist because everything there is imperishable and exists always in the eternal present beyond our material understanding of time and space.

Only within a dark cloud (1/4 of creation) that is also existing in Spiritual Sky (Known as the mahat-tattva or material universe) does impermanence, past, present, future, birth, death, suffering, impermanence and forgetfulness exist and always moving in cycles, i.e., the cycle of birth and death, the cycle of Yugas or ages, the cycle of the climatic seasons etc. These qualities of decline and regeneration do not exist within the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm. Only within Lila-rasa or the mellows of ones personal pastime with Krishna, does eternal farsightedness exists in diverse behavioural ways of outward manifestations (relationships) and ‘seasons of seemingly change’ according to rasa (pastimes with Krishna and His devotees) that never needs regeneration because it never ages or fades.

The atma-jiva-vigraha devotee’s are sometimes referred to as marginal spiritual sparks and Krishna the Supreme Personality of Godhead however, both are distinct as individual Persons, atma-vigraha devotees or Purushas meaning “Individual Persons" with bodily form in the sense of a conscious spirit. Both God (Krishna) and the individual spirits (atma-jiva-vigraha devotee’s) are purushas, but Krishna is the Adi (Original, exemplary) Purusha, Parama (Highest) Purusha, and the Purushottama (Best of the Purushas or atma-vigraha bodily personalities), and Krishna the Supreme Atma-Vigraha or Purushas.

The finite atma-jiva-vigraha devotee’s are always subservant to Krishna or His various expansions including Maha-Vishnu who is the provider and facilitator of the material manifestation or mahat-tattva. Krishna is their provider in all aspects of existence even when they ‘consciously’ (or transmitted consciousness that is called the jiva-bhutah or jiva-sakti) choose to leave Vaikuntha and enter the material universe or mahat-tattva where Maha-Vishnu provides the ethereal and biological vessels that facilitates the jiva-bhutah’s or jiva-sakti’s non-Krishna conscious desires. In the Vedas and Puranas all Persons as their marginal identity are distinct individuals with a perpetual bodily form that is the authentic identity of the ‘so-called’ spiritual spark, so for Vaishnavas, it is not difficult to understand the eternal personal existence of the finite jivatmas (atma-vigraha devotee’s) in relationship to the infinite Deity Paramatma (Lord Krishna) is always personal and ones original constitutional position is an eternal bodily person eternally serving Krishna.

Such Lila’s or pastimes although, can change in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha feature of the Spiritual Universe in ways that can only be understood as one genuinely re-awakens their 'old' and original Krishna Conscious bodily identity and withdrawal their extended transmitted secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) from the confines of ethereal and biological vessels ensnared within the material universe (mahat-tattva). And even then, after withdrawing from the dream of Maha-Vishnu (the Over-Lord and facilitator of the mahat-tattva) and giving up the ethereal and biological containers at their root cause, which is the desire to enjoy separately from Krishna, can one again take up their original position in the Kingdom of God (Krishna).

Along these lines ones projected jiva-bhutah consciousness is eventually withdrawn or again re-established back as ones Krishna Conscious real self or atma-jiva-vigraha body as the dust of material desires are cleared from the mind and replaced with memories of ones real self serving Krishna. Even then, when re-established as ones real self, the ways of Krishna's devotional perpetual Kingdom will always be inconceivable and remain a mystery.

In other words, even though one has an original nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha or atma-jiva body, still the entire creation will remain a forever expanding creation, not with living entities (atma-jiva-vigraha devotees) for they have always been and there was never a time when they did not exist. The forever-expanding creation is due to the forever expanding pastimes of Krishna and His expansions that will always eternally remain a mystery.

Srila Prabhupada states in his teachings of Lord Chaitanya referring to the living entity (jiva-bhutah consciousness) entrapment in the material manifestation (mahat-tattva): -

‘The living entity is eternally part and parcel of God, when he is liberated from the impermanent material manifestation; he revives his original, eternal, part-and-parcel bodily identity. The realization of aham brahmasmi ("I am not this biological body") does not mean that the living entity loses his identity. At the present moment a person may consider himself to be matter, but in his liberated state he will understand that he is not matter but spirit soul, part of the infinite. To become Krishna conscious or spiritually conscious and to engage in the transcendental loving service of Krishna are signs of the liberated stage’.

Every living entity (Krishna’s marginal potency) has an original nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-atma-vigraha body they can realize if they remain Krishna Conscious, or can never realize when not Krishna Conscious. The meaning of these Sanskrit words are: -

Nitya-siddha - Everyone (all living entities or the marginal potency of Krishna) has a perpetual nitya-siddha higher self or Krishna conscious body that can never fall or leave Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

The fall down (forgetting Krishna) state is not a bodily plunge, it is a conscious descend downwards to the lower self or unconscious dream setting where one’s ‘thoughts’ enters and creates the holographic dimension of the material delusional universe, such creations are not factually created by the jiva-bhutah transmitted consciousness, even though one may think they are creating such facilitates due to forgetfulness of who they really are and Krishna the cause of all causes. In actual fact all the dreams, thoughts and desires of the transmitted secondary self are built into a secondary reality within the mahat-tattva by Maha-Vishnu.

Nitya-siddha refers to ones original Krishna Conscious body or higher personified self personified that is always there in bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (Gods Kingdom) even when ones dreaming jiva-bhutah consciousness, or lower self is projected into the material universe of dreams, or further transformed into the jiva-nikaya stage or non-dream state that happens after the embodied jiva-bhutah becomes frustrated with the impermanent nature of its material hallucinations, that, from the viewpoint of the Vaikuntha’s, are no more real than a mirage in a desert. However on this absolute level, all dreams, hallucinations, thoughts and mirages are real but temporary because the mahat-tattva or material universe does temporarily exist in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

Eventually the jiva-bhutah’s ethereal and biological containments that trap the transmitted life force or secondary consciousness in the material-interactive condition of existence in the mahat-tattva, withdrawals from the confines of those bodily vessels and the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, withdrawing to the jiva-nikaya inactive non-ethereal, biological and material condition. This is just another change of consciousness, altering one illusion for another, an active sub-consciousness (material activities), to an inactive sub-consciousness (Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti that exists outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu but still within the confines of the mahat-tattva.). They are both an illusion (real but temporary) and only exist in sub-conscious dreams transmitted from the Nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha body to the mahat-tattva as either the jiva-bhutah or jiva-nikaya condition while totally unaware of the atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body.

Due to the nature of eternal time and the permanence of the Spiritual universe or Personal Brahman or Brahmajyoti, past, present, future, space and time that can only exist within the mahat-tattva cloud within the Spiritual Sky, are amalgamated as an everlasting event with no beginning or no end. Everything in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha eternally happens in the present. This confirms that ones original atma-jiva-vigraha body is always in Goloka-Vrndavana, even if one is sub-consciously off somewhere else in some imaginary dream. That dream world or non-Krishna conscious mahat-tattva is the material universe and comes under the phenomena of past, present, future, time, space, ethereal vessel, biological vessels, impermanence, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age, death

· Siddhasvarupa - One’s Krishna Conscious unique, original and servitor personal relationship with Krishna that is eternally in Goloka-Vrndavana even if one has turned their back on Krishna and experience existence through their lower self as the sub-conscious transmission of non-Krishna conscious desires or thoughts, where one imagines themselves as many different forms with many personalities, still their real transcendental state of Krishna Consciousness and relationships with Krishna, His internal plenary individual expansions and His devotee’s (other nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha’s) is always in Goloka-Vrndavana, regardless if ones dreaming consciousness has entered the abstract universe of shadows known as the material universe. It is therefore clear that ones original eternal relationship is always with Krishna, even while one is dreaming other things and has forgotten their atma-vigraha body from where the illusionary dreams are transmitted. One can only be re-awakened, after previously ‘choosing to deliberately leaving Goloka-Vrndavana’, when one is again Krishna Conscious. It is impossible to understand whom one really is in Krishna Lila (pastime) while still absorbed in the sub-conscious-jiva bhutah or jiva-nikaya projected hallucinations.

· Sat - Krishna Conscious eternity beyond time and space, past, present and future.

· Cit - Krishna Conscious Knowledge.

· Ananda - Krishna Conscious bliss.

· Atma - (soul’s higher self, personality and individuality) – Krishna Conscious self, identity, and personality (also atma can mean jiva however, in this thesis, the jiva (soul’s lower self) is the sub-consciousness of the full conscious atma (the souls higher self) and is called the jiva-bhutah that is the transmitted dreaming consciousness that creates the material illusion. The non-Krishna Conscious jiva-bhutah-sub-consciousness only exists when one is not Krishna Conscious, just as darkness cannot exist when the light is on.

· Vigraha - Soul’s Krishna Conscious eternal form and is the atma’s individual eternal identity and personality

Ones inability to remember Krishna while trapped in the jiva-bhutah sub-consciousness is due to attachment to the lower self. This addiction to counterfeit bodies and identities are shaped by the jiva-bhutah-sub-conscious determination to satisfy their self-interest of being determined to enjoy like Krishna, replacing service to Krishna with service to the imaginary self. In this way, the shadow of the Krishna Conscious atma-jiva-vigraha body becomes that imagined self and is called the jiva-bhutah-sub-conscious non-Krishna conscious condition. This shadow of ones self is only interested in pursing self-centered sensual gratification (lower-self addicted to ethereal, biological and material life or non Krishna conscious dreams) that creates what we call the material universe where one can forget Krishna for almost an eternity if they want.

The Brahmajyoti or Brahman is held together by form and is the entire creation where Goloka-Vrndavana, the Vaikuntha’s (imperishable) as well as the mahat-tattva (perishable) exist. What anyone does within the mahat-tattva, it is like acting out a role in a play

Generally nitya-siddha among Vaishnava's means one never falls to the conditioned living entity stage, known as the jiva-bhutah non-Krishna dreaming conscious condition, which is the sub-conscious lower self (nitya-baddha or eternally conditioned state) that is oblivious to their full Krishna Conscious atma-vigraha body in Krishna's perpetual Kingdom.

The lower conscious self (jiva-bhutah) is always in the nitya-baddha condition of comatose consciousness that can only actively manifest within the perishable material universal dream. Therefore, more or less, their understanding is correct however, even though the nitya-siddha atma-vigraha bodies never fall down from Krishna's Personal Kingdom, the introverted dreaming conscious state 'within' which is called the nitya-baddha jiva-bhutah, can be generated as consciousness from ones real self or nitya-siddha atma-vigraha bodily form.

Even though ones original body can never fall down from Krishna’s perpetual Kingdom, it is possible, due to free will, one can enter a trance like insignificant (real but temporary) consciousness and forget that unique blissful nitya-baddha form and ‘consciously fall’ (not as ones uninterrupted bodily form) to the nitya-baddha eternally conditioned state. This is similar to forgetting the biological body while sleeping and dreaming. In simple terms, the atma-vigraha body, or higher conscious awareness in the form of ones real bodily form serving Krishna in the Kingdom of God, is eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and can never fall down, where as the lower conscious self, manifested as a multiple dreaming bodily identities and forms within the material universe or mahat-tattva, is eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) and is always in that state.

Every living entities original individual bodily devotional form (marginal potency of the Lord) in Krishna's Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode.

March 20, 2007

Krishna doesn't kill demons. Visnu does.

===============================

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.11-12

nārāyaṇa, catur-vyūha, matsyādy-avatāra

yuga-manvantarāvatāra, yata āche āra

sabe āsi' kṛṣṇa-ańge haya avatīrṇa

aiche avatare kṛṣṇa bhagavān pūrṇa

Lord Nārāyaṇa, the four primary expansions [Vāsudeva, Sańkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna and Aniruddha], Matsya and the other līlā incarnations, the yuga-avatāras, the manv-antara incarnations and as many other incarnations as there are — all descend in the body of Lord Kṛṣṇa. In this way the complete Supreme Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself, appears.

ataeva viṣṇu takhana kṛṣṇera śarīre

viṣṇu-dvāre kare kṛṣṇa asura-saḿhāre

At that time, therefore, Lord Viṣṇu is present in the body of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and Lord Kṛṣṇa kills the demons through Him.

If you want to get technical, Maha-Vishnu created the maha-tattva not Krishna - Do you understand the concept of Lia? Do you understand we originate from Vaikuntha?

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4. 11.16

Lord Narayana, the four primary expansions [Vasudeva, Sankarshana, Pradyumna and Aniruddha], Matsya and the other lila incarnations, the yuga-avataras, the manv-antara incarnations and as many other incarnations as there are -- all descend in the body of Lord Krishna. In this way the complete Supreme Godhead, Lord Krishna Himself, appears.

At that time, therefore, Lord Vishnu is present in the body of Lord Krishna, and Lord Krishna kills the demons through Him.

Thus the killing of the demons is but secondary work. I shall now speak of the main reason for the Lord's incarnation

The Lord's desire to appear was born from two reasons: the Lord wanted to taste the sweet essence of the mellows of love of God, and He wanted to propagate devotional service in the world on the platform of spontaneous attraction. Thus He is known as supremely jubilant and as the most merciful of all.

During the period of Lord Krishna's appearance, the killing of asuras or nonbelievers such as Kamsa and Jarasandha was done by Vishnu, who was within the person of Sri Krishna. Such apparent killing by Lord Sri Krishna took place as a matter of course and was an incidental activity for Him. But the real purpose of Lord Krishna's appearance was to stage a dramatic performance of His transcendental pastimes at Vrajabhumi, thus exhibiting the highest limit of transcendental mellow in the exchanges of reciprocal love between the living entity and the Supreme Lord. These reciprocal exchanges of mellows are called raga-bhakti, or devotional service to the Lord in transcendental rapture. Lord Sri Krishna wants to make known to all the conditioned souls that He is more attracted by raga-bhakti than vidhi-bhakti, or devotional service under scheduled regulations. It is said in the Vedas (Taittiriya Up. 2.7), raso vai sah: the Absolute Truth is the reservoir for all kinds of reciprocal exchanges of loving sentiments. He is also causelessly merciful, and He wants to bestow upon us this privilege of raga-bhakti. Thus He appeared by His own internal energy. He was not forced to appear by any extraneous force.

March 20, 2007

The Lord does not kill any demons in his pastimes in Goloka Vrindaban. Killing of demons only happens in the material world.

In Goloka the residents of Vraja hear rumours that Kamsa is the King of Mathura but Kamsa does not exist in Mathura in the spiritual world. In Mathura in Goloka, Krishna enjoys pastimes with his family the Yadavas.

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Origin of the Living Entity- Oh No! Here we go again about this jiva-tattva issue!!!

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