Beggar

Well, at least I changed it. Rupanuga was my GBC a few times. He was so authoritarian in approach it used to blow my mind - very much old school.

He also explains that those whose devotion is based on fear (of suffering, death etc) must follow Srila Rupa Goswami whereas those who are on the level of spontaneous devotion will see Srila Rupa Goswami as Sri Rupa Manjari. Just like Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Narayana Maharaja has warned us not to try to jump prematurely to the higher level.

TLC CH. 17 Folks, they don't call him Sonic fer nutt'n. Sonic Yogi has just hit a 500 foot, plus, home run right OUT of the entire ball park - on Gaura Purnima, by golly. Aren't you glad you tuned in?

Hare Krsna. It seems that you are looking for an objective answer, but guru bhakti, which is an important component of Krsna bhakti is anything but objective. Rather, it is subjective based on love and affection. Since we are of mixed diksa (initiating) and siksa (instructing) gurus on this site, definitive answers would sound sectarian and are bound to ruffle some feathers and hurt some feelings. Of course on Audarya, Spiritual Discussions we are known to engage in such things but we have to remember that we are on the eve of Gaura Purnima, so really it is a time to unite under the banner of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, at least for a day or so. So as Srila Sridhar Maharaja has said, "the heart is a tasting machine". So do the research on your own and correspond with different followers of different gurus and ask them about their experiences and their guru's opinions on this subject. Maybe if you can, actually meet the teachers that you are refering to, and then let your heart be your guide.

Perhaps Srila Babaji Maharaja was a unique exception to many 'rules'. He was bhajanandi, whereas his guru was training his disciples to be gosthyanandi, as was Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Maybe the different 'chastisments', by his guru and his esteemed godbrother were for the sake of their general followers, not Babaji Maharaja. When a group of Western devotees went to Navadvipa in '76 to learn mrdanga beats from Babaji Maharaja, they were told that they could find him at Srila Sridhar Maharaja's Math. Sometimes when they asked him about a beat, he would show them. Sometimes he would just break into a bhajana and sometimes he would grab them by the arm and drag them upstairs to hear Srila Sridhar Maharaja speak. It is all on a tape which is quite amazing.

In the material world we say, "its a dirty job but somebody has to do it." In the spiritual world they say, "its a blissful service but somebody has to do it." Compare and contrast. Talk amongst yourselves, I'm vaklemfed.

BTW folks, it is bad taste to even think about a successor at a time like this. Let those who served and loved Srila Puri Maharaja feel the separation, they must feel. For others be in the moment and just appreciate Srila Maharaja's memory. I was very fortunate enough to personally meet him, several years ago, and I must thank my lucky stars.

Look at the rest of the quote at post #2: Inconceivable Jiva-Tattva

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

See how the issues are very interrelated?

Sonic Yogi: Beggar is my siksa guru. Dr. Von Schulzt: How long have you felt this way? Sonic Yogi: Since I read that post where he quoted Narayana Maharaja explaining the position of Narada Muni. Dr. Von Shultz: Calm down Mr. Yogi or we will have to put you in restraints. Sonic Yogi: No, no you don't understand Beggar is my siksa guru. Dr. Von Shultz: Nurse Kravizt is preparing a shot for you, Mr. Yogic, it will help you calm down. You will have to drop your drawers because it is too powerful of a shot to administer in your arm. Cut to Rod Serling: Here we have the strange case of one Sonic Yogi; He seems think that Beggar is his siksa guru, just because Beggar knows how to use the Google search engine and found a neat quote by Srila Narayana Maharaja. These things are going on in The Audayazone... [fade to scene one with audio effects]

So just as it appears that the jiva manifests, but is actually eternal, similarly the sthayi-bhava appears to manifest, but is actually eternal. This is what I meant before by the interrelatedness of the two issues. So one can go up to Goloka from Vaikuntha and the story of Narada seems to be one of the major examples. So in a sense one who goes up from Vaikuntha to Goloka is really just realizing their "eternal" form. Its just like the origin of the jiva issue in that there is only so much analyzing that one can do, until we get it that language really doesn't do the topic full justice because we are dealing with something that is really inconceivable. But when we hear about these subjects from the lotus mouth of a sadhu (sad - sat) or sat guru then not only do we hear about the intricacies of the topic, but also there is the deep faith, love and affection in that voice. Sometimes if we are fortunate then we can read it and such a mood will just jump off the page into our hearts. But if we are not careful then we will only see the intracies and apparent contradictions of the subject as we try to disect it with our rational minds, just because we have nothing better to do.

Just look at this part. I'm not demanding you accept the authority here. But at least look at the ideas. What do you think? Does this answer any of the questions? Do you agree? Do you want something more specific?

Morning Walk [Excerpt] New Zealand: Wednesday, 09 January 2008

Find out in our own heart: 1. What is Srila Prabhupada's rasa with Krsna. 1.a. What is his eternal form in Krsna and Gaura lila? 1.b. What is our eternal form? 2. What is the origin of the jiva soul. 3. Whether our sthayi bhava is fixed or can be changed. 4. Whether Sri Guru is giving Krsna Consciousness or uncovering that which is already within us. 5. Whether we are becoming detached from the material world and attached to Krsna. 6. Whether or not we are attached to pratistha, position, or gradually giving it up. 7. Whether or not we understand the goal of sadhana bhakti. 8. Whether or not we have overestimated our own position. 9. Whether or not we are offensive. 10. Whether or not we are really sincere. Unfortunately for myself, I would rather argue about things that are a zillion miles from my own realization just because I think that I can understand them intellectually. So ditto, if I have offended anyone please forgive me. Hare Krsna

Yes, I'm glad you see chronological order of the discussions as being important because it has been alleged that this quote: took place as a reaction to certain criticisms coming from the GBC of the time and a few others. I don't believe that is the order. I could be wrong but I could swear that he said this just after discussing the possibility of sakhya rasa for Srila Prabhupada and the evidence for it, essentially the first time the topic was discussed extensively.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: I take it like this, that it was Srila B.V. Prabhupada's decision not to distribute madhurya rasa in the first installment and Srila Sridhar Maharaja does not want to disturb those persons in installment one who are not ready for installment two. Yet it is the very vani of Srila Sridhar Maharaja that for Srila Prabhupada's disciples is installment two. So he is treading lightly and being carelful and at the same time dropping the hint to the others that - maybe, just maybe your are correct and that if his gurudeva is Radharani then of course, he must be in madhurya rasa. This is how I heard the first time in 1982 and that is how I hear it today. Therefore all manifestations of sakhya during Srila Prabhupada's manifest lila were either coming through as a manifestation of his saktyavesa of Nityananada Prabhu or were as Srila Sridhar Maharaja stated, something that manifesting during the conscious suppresion of madhurya rasa [since the adi-rasa contains all rasa]. This being said, for me this is really just an intellectual exercise and I hope against hope that one day I will develop the desire to serve and know Srila Prabhupada as he is in nitya lila, otherwise all is for naught, srama eva hi kevalam.

Do you have faith that somebody knows? Do you have faith that somebody can Know Srila Prabhupada's siddha swarupa? But not knowing by research work and then weighing the evidence like a civil court or a university study, but knowing by revelation, by realization through the descending process. There are those that know, that have been given the eyes to see, like Duryodhana, was given spiritual eyes by Krsna to get a brief glimpse of Him. This is the process, not to take apart recorded statements and compare them with anecdotal evidence from questionable sources. Go ask someone who has been given the eyes to see for themselves and they may just tell you that you should engage in the process so that you may be give the eyes to see for yourself. And this is really what Srila Narayana Maharaja is saying, what Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Prabhuapada are saying, what all bonafide gurus are saying. But unless we are deeply engaged in this process we will take what is really Hari katha as knowledge that we can grasp in our fist. Yet when we take this approach, we will get the opposite, we will find our fist is quite empty.

Sri Narayana Maharaja, Mathura Los Angeles, June 27, 1975: Srila Prabhupāda, Los Angeles, June 27, 1975:

Actually this not what I am saying, I am saying that one should approach a siksa guru that they have faith in, and inquire from them. For those who want to line up with Srila Sridhar Maharaja, what about Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja? Why don't they ask him? Well they don't because they think, "I have my math and he has his." But this does not mean that they are even close to being his league, even if they think they are. Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that Govinda Maharaja is a "transcendental personality", that sounds like a very high recommendation. So, why do research? If you don't have faith in Srila Narayana Maharaja then for God sakes ask someone like Srila Govinda Maharaja? You don't think that he understands Srila Sridhar Maharaja after forty years of intimate service and hearing? Another interesting thing about Govinda Maharaja is that he actually lived with Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada for a couple of years in the late forties. Why not ask him about this: And BTW, this statement was not made as a reaction to Prabhupada disciples in Iskcon's criticisms; That happened later. Also Srila Narayana Maharaja has been asked, "what is Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's spiritual identity, who is he in Krsna lila?" The only answer that I have ever heard is, "I know and when you are qualified, I shall tell you." And this is the exact same answer that Srimati Jadurani (Symarani) received, which she told me, personally. And she is practically the most senior Western devotee in that sanga! So Srila Narayana Maharaja's opinion is that as a class, we (including Indian neophytes, also) are not qualified to receive a definitive answer on the subject and Srila Sridhar Maharaja also gave qualified statements, not a definitive answer. Yet, so many right here on this forum are taking his statements that the evidence is definitive even though he gives the maybes as shown above.

...and they will choose according to their inner nature. gHari proposed that it's "like another Crow and Tal Fruit debate," and here is the exact instance where he is proven correct. At what point did the jiva fall? At what point did choice come into play if we already have an internal swarupa [in seed form]? Here is where the topics become one, or at least interrelated. And if you look closely you will see that it's deeply intertwined with who is guru, and who can become guru or even a sannyasi or brahmana?

Guru is one. Guru: Look, over there. Is it a rope or a snake? Disciple: It is a snake. Guru: Are you sure, but look again for actually you will see that its a rope. Disciple: Yes, yes, now I see it. It is a rope. Guru: Actually it is a snake, look carefully. Disciple: No, no, I have seen. Guru: But you have not really seen, it is really snake after, so look. Disciple: Yes, I will look. Oh my Gurudeva, yes, yes, it is a snake! Guru: Now look again my disciple for you will see that you are incorrect... (I know that Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that he is "not wholly one with Swami Maharaja", but on certain points and on certain levels they are one, around 99.9% of the time as are all real Gaudiya Saraswat gurus. Not only will the guru contradict perhaps another guru, but he will appear to contradict himself, but it is our limitations....) Take a look at the whole article: http://www.purebhakti.com/teachers/bhakti-discourses-mainmenu-61/18-discourses-1990s/128-rupanuga-and-raganuga.html

Who could be influencing devotees to do that? Could it be Narayana Maharaja? What does he have to say about this: Srila Narayana Maharaja: Maybe some posters here have done that, but which substantial preacher, substantial authority in the Gaudiya Saraswat line has done or is doing this? The answer is none! And this is the premise that seems to be behind much of the effort. Therefore it is a false premise!

Guess what Prabhus, It all comes down to who is qualified to give the definitive answer. And not only that, but who is even qualified to hear the definitive answer. This is not a court case based on the preponderance of evidence as the author seems to assert. Yes, it comes down to who is qualified to be guru. Or at least amongst gurus who is senior and who is junior. Is there anyone more senior than the "living" authorities that you are approaching? Yep, the guru thing, the rtvik thing comes full circle. You don't think that anyone has more realization? Are you ready for this? Ready or not, hear it comes!

First part of :02-27-2009, 10:52 PM <!-- / status icon and date --> #38 So why doesn't it? Some people have an agenda.