Beggar

Sarva, You think that you are listening to Srila Prabhupada, but mostly you are just hearing your own thoughts bounce off the inner part of your skull. This is why siksa guru is so necessary. Srila Prabhupada's disciples were in an extremely immature stage when he finished his manifest lila. Paranoia and immaturity can be a bad mix, then on top of it the Zonal Acarya scam that was like a nuclear explosion on the Iskcon institution and then the GBC's failed reform. If the Western economies completely collapse, the disappointed people will not come to the Iskcon farms (what farms?) out of fear from "Monkey on a Stick". Besides will Krsna want them to come and hear some psychobabble?

What people like ____ and the ______ want to incite is that Western Vaishnavism is splitting into many fractions and become meaningless, thats all. Therefore they teach everyone should be guru, to be guru is also for neophytes, everything cheap, everybody acarya. To totally bring down Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan movement and destroy it in the name of defending it, that is their ambition. If anyone says, now just imagine the combined power of a global Vaishnava movement with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur as acarya and all affectionate Godbrothers, they immediately say, ritvik poison. They tell you directly, you're a demon. What people like ____ and the ______ want to incite is that Western Vaishnavism is splitting into many fractions and become meaningless, thats all. Therefore they teach everyone should be guru, to be guru is also for neophytes, everything cheap, everybody acarya. To totally bring down Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan movement and destroy it in the name of defending it, that is their ambition. If anyone says, now just imagine the combined power of a global Vaishnava movement with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada as acarya and all affectionate Godbrothers, they immediately say, ritvik poison. They tell you directly, you're a demon. What people like ____ and the ______ want to incite is that Western Vaishnavism is splitting into many fractions and become meaningless, thats all. Therefore they teach everyone should be guru, to be guru is also for neophytes, everything cheap, everybody acarya. To totally bring down Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan movement and destroy it in the name of defending it, that is their ambition. If anyone says, now just imagine the combined power of a global Vaishnava movement with Srila Prabhupada's qualified disciples as acaryas under Prabhupada's GBC and all affectionate Godbrothers, they immediately say, bogus poison. They tell you directly, you're a demon. What people like ____ and the ______ want to incite is that Western Vaishnavism is splitting into many fractions and become meaningless, thats all. Therefore they teach everyone should be guru, to be guru is also for neophytes, everything cheap, everybody acarya. To totally bring down Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan movement and destroy it in the name of defending it, that is their ambition. If anyone says, now just imagine the combined power of a global Vaishnava movement with Srila Narayana Maharaja as acarya and all affectionate Godbrothers, they immediately say, bogus poison. They tell you directly, you're a demon. What people like ____ and the ______ want to incite is that Western Vaishnavism is splitting into many fractions and become meaningless, thats all. Therefore they teach everyone should be guru, to be guru is also for neophytes, everything cheap, everybody acarya. To totally bring down Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan movement and destroy it in the name of defending it, that is their ambition. If anyone says, now just imagine the combined power of a global Vaishnava movement with Srila Govinda Maharaja as acarya and all affectionate Godbrothers, they immediately say, bogus poison. They tell you directly, you're a demon. What people like ____ and the ______ want to incite is that Western Vaishnavism is splitting into many fractions and become meaningless, thats all. Therefore they teach everyone should be guru, to be guru is also for neophytes, everything cheap, everybody acarya. To totally bring down Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan movement and destroy it in the name of defending it, that is their ambition. If anyone says, now just imagine the combined power of a global Vaishnava movement with Srila Puri Maharaja as acarya and all affectionate Godbrothers, they immediately say, bogus poison. They tell you directly, you're a demon. What people like ____ and the ______ want to incite is that Western Vaishnavism is splitting into many fractions and become meaningless, thats all. Therefore they teach everyone should be guru, to be guru is also for neophytes, everything cheap, everybody acarya. To totally bring down Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan movement and destroy it in the name of defending it, that is their ambition. If anyone says, now just imagine the combined power of a global Vaishnava movement with Srila ____ as acarya and all affectionate Godbrothers, they immediately say, bogus poison. They tell you directly, you're a demon.

The body leaves the soul, vacates due to its decay and ill health? I say old chap did you read me post on

Sarva, we need to hear from pure devotees. You personally heard from Srila Prabhupada, you have that memory, smaranam. The goal is Krsna prema, love of God, which can manifest as bhava on this plane. That is found is his mood of love and affection, not in the details and more details and more and more details of the philosophy. There really is no need to know so much, otherwise we become logicians like the followers of Sankaracarya. bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha-mate samprāpte sannihite kāle marane na hi na hi rakṣati ḍukṛñ-karaṇe Generally when Srila Prabhupada quoted this verse he used it to establish personalism over impersonalism but the application can be universal. Srila Prabhupada: Town Hall Lecture -- Auckland, April 14, 1972

I say old boy, this is truly rascaldom of the third degree, wouldn't you agree, Sonic Yogi, old chap?

A bona fide spiritual master actually feels this way in his divine humility, that he is just a disciple of his guru, simply carrying out his instructions. If one is not really pure then they will give lip service to this, but they will not be able to maintain and the false ego will then emerge.

A superficial thinker should never write a book on a deep subject such as this, that's absurd. Sarva gattah, Gauragopal, never explores that if the only understanding is that the jivas are all really nitya-siddha then why does the term nitya-baddha even exist and why does it show up so many times in sastra like Caitanya Caritamrta? The same is true over the issue of whether 'tatastha' is a place or not? As we have rehashed about a thousand times, tatastha literally means the place where the water meets the land at the shore, IOW, the place that can neither be called water or land. While it is completely true that certain concepts put forth in sastra are analogies, one has to at least wonder and and address the idea why the word 'tatastha' is used in the first place. Why did for instance Srila Krsna das Kaviraja and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu use this word at all, only to confuse us? The real reason is to point us in a particular direction. So it is best to hear from suddha bhaktas, pure devotees on all such subjects. If you want to hear from Srila Prabhupada, then it is best to read his books, yet in those books one will find that it is best to hear from the lotus mouth of a saintly devotee. In the proper context all such subjects can be discussed and outside that context, even such discussions become idle chatter which clutter the mind and digress into institutional politics, tantamount to a form of prajalpa. And that is what Garuagopal's book is - a form of prajalpa.

Believe it or not I think that the system laid out in post #27 could have been implemented within the Iskcon institution beginning in 1978. If other senior persons wanted to take disciples, then they could have gone outside the Iskcon institution. Another possibility for the GBC of the time was to have had the 11 initiate on Srila Prabhupada's behalf in his temples and start their own temples where they could be seen as a full guru if that is what they wanted. And I'm not saying that they were really qualified either. But the cat got out of the bag some 31 years ago. What's the use of telling someone that their grandparents had an illicit, bogus marriage? If you really look closely the whole issue calls into question Westerners becoming brahmanas, sanyassis, rtivks and gurus. Does anyone think that the disciples of H.H. Gour Govinda Maharaja will entertain the idea that he was not a full guru?

Good answer explaining how 'Henceforwardism' is not necessary for one's individual spiritual life, if their heart takes them exclusively to Srila Prabhupada. 'Henceforwardism' is an institutional consideration.

"Hencefoward" until a qualified guru shows up? Henceforward until a qualified guru in his line appears? Henceforward until the end of Kali Yuga? Henceforward until Ten Thousand Years is over? Henceforward until someone names their son Henceforward das? Henceforward until 'Henceforward' becomes a common last name in the United States, U.K. Cananda and Austrailia? Henceforward until I say the world 'henceforward' so many times that I go insane!

What would be the difference between rtvik for Iskcon in 1978 and the Ten Thousand Year Rtvik Reich idea? Let's try to stay on point.

The example of the physician is that he gives medical advice. When a spiritual teacher gives advice about the practice of bhakti to a student, it is just that, advice or instruction - siksa in Sanskrit. But andy108 goes on a long diatribe culminating in an attack on 'Caste Diksa privilege' which was probably triggered by my mentioning the word 'rtvik'. But I was calling into question the idea of one's only guidance being from books and Supersoul without association and guidance of a highly advanced Vaisnava. Theist got it, so he immediately rushed forth with his 'Supersoul Doctrine' (I'm not against Caitya-Guru). But andy108 took the 'rtivk' word bait and jumped. Hmm, maybe my fault for using the word. Another thought - there is a difference between just rtivk and The Ten Thousand Year Rtvik Reich.

Spiritual life (bhakti yoga) is a razors edge. This means that you can fall off to the right or the left, towards karma or towards jnana. There are so many permutations of karmic and jnanic deviations from pure devotional service to Krsna that it is practically unlimited. Anytime we take one or a number of these various karmic and jnanic deviations as the real thing, then we take a stand in the realm of imitation bhakti. We can be too dry and in our heads or too 'wet' and materially sentimental about Krsna Consciousness. Sometimes we know in our heart of hearts and sometimes we are just covered or don't even want to know. At that time we need approach an expert spiritual physician for advice. The problem for the Ten Thousand Year Rtvik Society and their fellow travellers is that they think the physician is only in a book, video or mp3 etc. Therefore he cannot talk back and give his diagnosis and prescriptive advice for their individual case. So despite all the denials, they have taken Srila Prabhupada as sastra guru, and that's fantastic for a first step. But for most, they are really their own guru.

In this and other instances, association would mean to express what points that we agree on. But as Kulapavana pointed out, Fundamentalists have no such agenda, such as the Islamic Jihadis. It sounds like an extreme comparison but there is a continuum. There were certain risks that Srila Prabhupada took in his preaching work, that there would be such an outcome amongst, let's face it, the majority of his 'aspiring followers' (aspiring for what, becomes the question?) If we keep up this kind of behavior in public, then the result will be that those looking for material relief will turn towards monism. So this cacophony of 'As it Isers' will do the anti-preaching and drive people away from Krsna Consciousness as a result. Sounds like a dark era for the preaching work in general. Sounds just as bad as the era when Sahajiya Vaisnavas had the upper hand at the turn of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

What if this paragraph is changed to read: In any case, anyone who is actually a guru is "officiating" on behalf of Lord Krsna. Just like Srila Prabhupada says, the postman is a representative (guru) who delivers the message of the President of the Government (the Supreme Personality of Godhead), but the post man is not the President of the Government himself, he is merely the representative. So Srila Prabhupada says, one has to be bona fide post men and deliver the message of the Government, but the postman is not the President of the Government, he is merely the agent. Why not just stick with Churchianity? There's a lot less social ostracism. Srila Sridhar Maharaja explains that there can be a difference between a guru who gives Hare Nama and diksa and an "acarcya" of an institution. He also explains that there are great gurus and minor gurus, that, "sometimes the Ganga is wide and sometimes it is narrow like a little stream, in the Himalyas, but it is still the Ganga." But Sats, he aint the Ganga at all, believe it.

I just turned 59, but the parole board couldn't have cared less. Here's me just after the hearing:

Also within Srila Prabhupada's community of followers during his manifest lila, there were different standards for different classes of devotees. For instance, uninitiated devotees were taught through different Iskcon publications to offer their food at home, usually to a picture of Srila Prabhupada and a picture of Sri Sri Gaura Nitai. Those who did the pujari activities of puja were second initiated into the gayatri [diksa] mantras and offered bhoga to the dieities installed by Srila Prabhupada by including either the full number of gayatri mantras or the abreviated form only meant for offering bhoga (usually depending on the time of the offering). Srila Prabhupada was fully aware that Jayatirtha had published the Iskcon Arcana Padati, which is coming directly from Hari Bhakti Vilas. After that, the puja rituals for diety worship became more complex. By the late eighties the GBC had deputed some pujaris to go to South India temples and learn even more about deity worship. Of course they could not go to the Gaudiya Math, which was much more closely related with Iskcon, due to politics and prejudices.

This is a perfect analysis and makes good sense. But you have to understand that the second part, the instructions on how to offer bhoga the way it was done in the mission of Srila Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati Thakur, is for those who have implicit faith in the speaker. Also remember, the instruction is about the details of devotional service not the essence. Therefore the essential part is: And: It will take an overly critical and devious mind to oppose these concepts.

To not respect one's elders is actually uncivilized behavior. This is true of both varnasrama dharma and vaisnava-sadacara or Vaisnava etiquette. Unfortunately in deep Kali Yuga many elders in both systems are not really worthy of respect, so one should then offer dandavats or obesances from afar.

I really appreciated andy108's last post (#24). Even if you don't agree with his solution(s) you will have to admit that it is an excellent analysis, especially for someone who was born after Srila Prabhupada's manifest lila.

These hardy pioneers travelled almost 2,500 miles to get diksa, their motto was "diksa or death!"

...They were also fanatics ...They were also fanatics ...They were also fanatics ...They were also fanatics:mad2::mad2: Five of these - = Who knows the answer?

Yet in a sense, formal diksa is the sampradaya like the shell of a sea animal is also the animal. But even if the animal dies, the shell will be left behind. Similarly real siksa is the real internal life of the sampradaya. So an institution can become like the shell and what's inside may be for all practical purposes, dead. And from the viewpoint of Caitanya Caritamrta, so can a sampradaya, or at least a branch of the sampradayic tree. The example was the son of Sri Advaita Acarya who did not accept the divinity of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur traced this phenomena to the imitationist lines masquerading as representing Mahaprabhu during his era. So has mainstream Iskcon for all intents and purposes also become the latest sahajiya sampradaya? There are many who would say yes. But despite all this if one doesn't want to accept formal diksa then they should really keep that to themselves. For if such a thing is broadcast publicly then they lead others to the non-sampradaya, sampradaya, formal diksa or not. So such things are private matter, not for public consumption otherwise it also becomes an hypocrisy for it would be a total contradiction. And I don't expect most to agree or even understand what I am writing.

Left in the Dust BY: SURESH DASA Feb 18, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA (SUN) — Dear Gurukrpa Prabhu, I apologize if it seems my facts are inaccurate, as you contend. I did not serve on your particular Sankirtan party in Japan; however I have spoken a number of times with one of your top collectors who did serve on your party in Japan. He related to me that you did, in fact, fry many of the devotees on your party, driving them to leave ISKCON and destroying their spiritual life and happiness in the process of your money collecting efforts for Srila Prabhupada. This is what I based my story on. Regarding your contention that when I spoke to your step-daughter, she was referring to her natural father, and not you - she iN fact stated that it was her father, whose name is Gurukrpa, who is suffering from a heroin addiction. What I left out was that she said her father, Gurukrpa (forgive me if I am mixing you up with someone else with your same name), served in Vietnam, and suffers regular nightmares from witnessing the horrors of war. If that is you, I do not fault you Prabhu, but in fact sympathize with your suffering from what you saw and experienced. At the same time, Srila Prabhupada stated his disciples are to observe “No Intoxication”, so how can I offer you respect or follow you as a leader of the devotees if that principle is not being observed? Then there is the reality that in fact, your party was kicked out of Japan. No one really has ever been allowed to know the facts behind why you and your members were forcibly removed from Japan, or what you did to deserve it. There has always been some talk about the “Pens”, but no one has ever been allowed to know the whole, true story. There is only the hearsay evidence I have found on the Internet in searching about the pens: “Siddha’s men were also involved with Gurukrpa in collecting money for building a temple for Srila Prabhupada from stolen Japanese pens”. I have heard about the pens many before, and the devotee from your party also confirms that pens were involved. It is not abnormal that many illicit dealings were involved back at that time by many of the sankirtan collecting parties, all over the world, not just yours. We all did it. Whoever could steal the most money and turn it over to Srila Prabhupada seemed to receive the greatest glory and accolades in ISKCON at that time, so who wouldn’t do it? Somebody told us that we should distribute books and collect laxmi for ISKCON “by hook or by crook”, so we made that our anthem. Any means was acceptable in collecting for ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada. It was really a competition back then to see who could be the greatest swindler and rip-off artist. It seemed to be authorized from the highest sources. My only question is what does that have to do with Bhakti yoga, or the principles in our books that we stand behind and seem to represent? If that makes me an offensive devotee, I truly apologize. Even after thinking about it for decades now, I can’t come to a resolution in my mind how our actions were moral, socially correct, or a solution to Kali-yuga and the present ills of society. I remember in the L.A. Temple, as an example, one year during the Christmas Marathon we all collected money for “UNICEF”. The Sankirtan leaders created large coffee cans and painted them bright red. Then a large plastic laminated card was attached to each can. On the front of the card was a picture of devotees feeding children in Mayapur. Above the picture in big, bold letters read "UNICEF", and in tiny, little, almost unreadable letters, “endorsed by”. For the first couple of weeks of December that year we collected thousands of dollars, all over the L.A. area for “UNICEF”. Then before the last 10 days of the Christmas Marathon started, an urgent letter came from Srila Prabhupada, ordering us to stop collecting for “UNICEF” at once. I personally witnessed Tulsi dasa (then the Temple President) and Ramesvar read the letter from Srila Prabhupada, in Tulsi dasa’s office. They deliberated about it carefully, and then decided to keep the collecting going for the rest of the Christmas Marathon, since the last 10 days are the best. They filed away Srila Prabhupada’s letter, and after the marathon was conveniently over, they told all of us that Srila Prabhupada did not want us to collect in this way again. Of course, not one penny of the money we collected actually went to feed the poor or to UNICEF, but instead all of it went into the BBT coffers. I never said anything either, to any of the devotees at that time about what I saw. You kept your mouth shut back then if you wanted to stay alive. It was the way it was back then. For a short time I collected on one of the New Vrndavan teams. I was told that Kirtanananda Swami intended to break all of the regulative principles to build the Palace of Gold, because that is how the great cathedrals of Europe were built. I personally could not get behind breaking the regulative principles to build a temple, so I left that party. I was kicked off the Radha Damodhar party as well, because I refused to rip off my parents. I personally witnessed devotees such as Tripurari doing the “Change-Up”. The change-up was a popular collecting technique back then in ISKCON. You went up to a karmi and asked for change for a $20.00 bill. I watched Tripurari take the $20, give the man back $5 and a book, and then run down the street. I watched a female devotee in the Chicago airport steal a man’s wallet and then run into the women’s bathroom and not give it back. I am not singling you out, Gurukrpa Prabhu. It was common for all of us to do what you did, and I did it as well. All I was upset about was how the individual devotees on your party were treated in the collecting of your money, based on what one of the biggest collectors from your party told me about his experience and how he feels, even today. I remember living in the kinds of conditions like you described too, and that’s why I wrote. I never said anything about staying in fancy hotels. I asked you why your devotees couldn’t have been put up in the cheapest MOTEL room. Back then you could have packed 10 devotees into a tiny motel room for maybe $10 a night. You would only have spent $1 per day on the typical devotee’s well being, plus food of course, instead of sleeping on the ground and bathing in rivers. Couldn’t you have offered your devotees in your charge a warm room and a hot shower in return for their free service to ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada? Especially, when the average sankirtan devotee collector was never going to see the Krishna Balaram Mandir, be allowed to visit Mayapur, see or interact with Srila Prabhupada personally, or enjoy private quarters at any of those places. I guess that’s what my beef is with ISKCON leadership. They ground us into the dust to collect their money, and then became millionaires themselves, with private bank accounts, and cushy lifestyles, while the average devotee was left in the dust with nothing.

Inconceivable Topics by Swami B.G. Narasingha Question: I have heard it said recently by some devotees that the origin of the jiva (regarding the soul's falling or not falling from the lila of Krsna) is inconceivable and that we cannot imagine or understand how or from where the soul has come into this material world. Can you please comment on this controversial topic? Answer: With our tiny brains so many things in Krsna consciousness are inconceivable. Not only is the origin of the soul inconceivable but Krsna's name, His form, qualities, and pastimes are all inconceivable to us. Who could conceive that the Absolute Truth (the source of all existence) is crawling as an infant child in the courtyard of Nanda Maharaja or suckling the breast of Mother Yasoda? The great devotee, Raghupati Upadhyaya says, srutim apare smrtim itare bharatam anye bhajantu bhava-bhitah aham iha nandam vande yasyalinde param brahma "Those who are afraid of material existence worship the Vedic literature. Some worship smrti , the corollaries to the Vedic literature, and others worship the Mahabharata . As far as I am concerned, I worship Krsna's father, Maharaja Nanda, in whose courtyard the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Absolute Truth, is playing." That the Absolute Truth is crawling in the courtyard of Nanda Maharaja is inconceivable to even the greatest thinkers that the world has ever known, but it is a fact. When we rely on the capacity of our tiny brain then all such things may be inconceivable. Knowledge or proper understanding of the Absolute Truth is obtained through the descending process (avaroha) and not through the ascending process (aroha). Aroha depends on the mind and senses, which are inherently defective and thus knowledge obtained in this way is also defective or incomplete. Avaroha means the process of receiving transcendental knowledge through the disciplic succession of self-realized souls. Such knowledge when received submissively enables one to understand the Absolute Truth. The sound that comes to us through (disciplic succession) the process of avaroha is also called sabda-brahma or transcendental sound vibration that is not subject to bhrama (mistakes), pramada (illusion), vipralipsa (cheating), or karanapatava (imperfect perception). On the other hand any form of knowledge or understanding (particularly regarding the Absolute Truth) sought through the process of aroha is most certainly wrought with the four defects of bhrama, pramada, vipralipsa, and karanapatava. If we want to know the origin of the soul or to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead we must first hear from authorities with faith (sraddha). This is called sravana-dasa, hearing from authorities with faith. Then comes varana-dasa, acceptance. When we faithfully hear from authorities the next natural step is to accept what the authorities have said. Only faith allows us to embrace transcendental knowledge. If for some reason we lack the essential faith and rely on our tiny brains for understanding, then the truth remains inconceivable and beyond our understanding or power of recognition. When we lack the proper faith then even after hearing the truth we will fail to recognize it. Acceptance or varana-dasa must be followed by sadhana-dasa, the stage of practice. Practice means to follow in the footsteps. This means that the knowledge from spiritual authorities must be followed and passed on to others without adding anything of our own concoction. What the self-realized authorities say we accept as truth. Then we come to the stage of prapana-dasa or attainment. In prapana-dasa there is realization of the Absolute Truth. That which has been accepted on the basis of faith now becomes fully realized. By the grace of our spiritual teachers we can accept the truth after hearing with faith and thus such matters as the inconceivable origin of the jiva can easily be understood even in our neophyte stage of spiritual life. If we do not have real faith then even after hearing the truth we will not accept it or embrace it fully. The issue of the origin of the jiva is only inconceivable in the minds of those devotees who have not embraced the transcendental knowledge passed down in our disciplic succession. Our spiritual master Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has stated: "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." (S.B. purport, 3.16.26) Shortly before the close of Srila Prabhupada's manifest pastimes he left instruction that if his disciples had any questions regarding philosophy that they should approach his godbrother, Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja. As it turned out, the origin of the jiva and the jivas falling or not falling from the spiritual world was one of the first philosophical questions to be raised after the departure of Srila Prabhupada. Thus the disciples of Srila Prabhupada approached his godbrother Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja for clarification and instruction. Srila Sridhar Deva Goswami Maharaja stated as follows: "The brahma-jyoti, the non-differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of non-differentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahma-jyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahma-jyoti is the jiva . The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahma-jyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms. "Generally, souls emanate from the brahma-jyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahma-jyoti , their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non-differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication. "Because the soul is very small, his freedom is also imperfect; a soul in the marginal position is very vulnerable. Freedom does not mean absolute freedom. Because the soul's existence is small, his freedom is defective -- there is the possibility of committing a mistake. Freedom of the minute soul does not mean perfect freedom. Complete freedom would be perfect reality, but the minute soul is endowed with the smallest atomic freedom. This is the position of the atoms of consciousness, and this is why they are vulnerable. They may judge properly or improperly; that is the position of those who are situated in the marginal position. If the soul were not endowed with the freedom to determine his position, we would have to blame God for our suffering. But we cannot blame God. The starting point of the soul's suffering is within himself." (Sri Krsna - Reality the Beautiful, ch-4, Origin of the Soul) When approached about this subject, Srila Sridhara Maharaja made no reference whatsoever to the jiva ever having been in the lila of Krsna before his having fallen down to this material world. Rather Srila Sridhara Maharaja makes it quite clear that the jiva originates in the marginal plane of existence. This is called srota-pantha, hearing and accepting knowledge through the disciplic succession. Those who struggle with embracing the proper Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta regarding to origin of the soul (as described above) are either the victims of a poor fund of faith or they are simply suffering from the reactions of vaisnava-aparadha. When we lack the essential faith to hear from authorities about the knowledge pertaining to even the simplest truth (as the jiva issue) then what chance do we stand to understand the higher lilas of Radha and Krsna in Vrndavana, where every word is a song and every step is a dance and from where once having gone no one ever returns.