Beggar

Try Associating with Saintly Persons BY: GURUKRPA DASA Feb 17, THAILAND (SUN) — According to Suresh Prabhu, who I do not know, he is assuming he knows what happened in Japan, although he was not there, and he never came, and he was never on our party. He appears to have anger issues with me and others, and also with Srila Prabhupada. Our philosophy is we are servants of the servant. I served Prabhupada, and he served his Spiritual Master, and in this way we are serving the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna! Whatever money was raised was 100% given to Srila Prabhupada, and was never kept by myself or by Srila Prabhupada, who used every ounce of his being, what to speak of his money for the service of Bhagavan Sri Krishna. You have said we were too cheap to take care of the devotees with hotels and other amenities. It would be one thing if I were living in some comfortable condition while the others suffered. Yasodanandana and I slept, bathed, and ate exactly the same as the other men. We took our inspiration from the Six Goswamis, who slept under different trees with no residence! In Japan many men came and left. I never hear any of them complaining, as they know that every penny they collected went to Srila Prabhupada. What right do you have to write and say these men were abused when none of them say it to me? I am eternally indebted to them for their helping me to carry out Srila Prabhupada's order, just as Srila Prabhupada feels indebted to all his disciples for helping him to serve his Guru Maharaja. You should get your facts straight. Then to bring up my step-daughter is ridiculous, as maybe she is referring to her natural father, not to me. You are obviously disgruntled, unhappy, and are an unrealized person. Maybe if you'd spend a few Kartiks in Vrindaban doing parikram and associating with saintly persons, your attitude would change? Your well-wisher, Gurukrpa

He got the 'Dayal' name from Harikesa and the 'Narayana' name from Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

In the eighties and nineties I had the fortune to associate with the first Hungarian devotee who was a sannyasi. Because of the Soviet Domination he was fluent in Russian and became the first translator of Srila Prabhupada's books into both Russian and Hungarian. After Prabhupada left the world he took sannyasa from Harikesa and was the regional secretary for Hungary. One day in the mid-eighties, Harikesa along with some gundas stormed the Budapest temple when this Maharaja (who later was known as Bhakti Abhaya Narayana Maharaja). It seemed that some of the newer devotees had much affection and respect for Maharaja and hardly knew Harikesa and some had been clamoring to take initiation from Maharaja although he wasn't GBC approved. Harikesa was threatened a pulled a coup de'tat, effectively ousting Maharaja from Hungary. Some of the newer devotees wanted to go with Maharaja, but Harikesa floated a story that Maharaja was disloyal to Srila Prabhupada because he was secretely in to Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Maharaja told us, "I didn't even know much about Srila Sridhar Maharaja at the time, so the story was a frabrication." Later some godbrothers advised Maharaja to go to Navadvip to consult with Srila Sridhar Maharaja for Harikesa had also revoked his sannyasa. Later Maharaja became Bhakti Abhaya Narayana Maharaja after receiving the name and danda from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Unfortunately Maharaja left this world around 1994 due to an automobile accident in Hungary.

guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah utpatha-pratipannasya parityago vidhiyate It is ones duty to give up a guru who cannot teach the disciple what he should do and what he should not do, and who takes the wrong path, either because of bad association or because he is opposed to Vaisnavas. One goes to hell if he accepts mantras from an avaisnava-guru, that is, one who is associating with women, and who is devoid of krisna-bhakti. Narada-pancaratra (1.10.20) Therefore, according to the rules of sastra, one should take mantras again from a Vaisnava guru. Hari-bhakti-vilasa (4.144)

Srila Sridhar Maharaja, 1982:

The Yamadutas are looking for a few good souls, The few the proud, The Yamadutas. paid advertisement

I'm not attacking your overall ideas in this post...but - yes, if Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead then His WISH" is some kind of magic wand. It's just that He wishes to have suddha bhaktas represent Him, and those who claim to represent Him will be tested by Him for purity. And what I mean by represent here is to take the position of Krsna's (Mahaprabhu's) pure representative of His sampradaya.

Good point! The lynch mob may be angry as hell and the criminal quite guilty or maybe even innocent. That's why the members of the lynch mob should take a look at themselves. Judge not lest you be judged. Were we searching for God and the Truth when we joined or found out about Krsna Consciousness or to become a member of a lynch mob?

One time in the early 90's, Srila Govinda Maharaja of the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math was on the same plane with Hrdayananda Maharaja. Hrdayananda M. asked, "please stop re-initiating my disciples". So when Srila Govinda M. came to the U.S. he announced that he would no longer re-initiate Hrdayananda M's disciples because he was not fallen. Then this was publicly announced. The Hrdayananda M disciples who were there, just didn't say anything or even lied when questioned and all ended up getting the connection with Srila Govinda Maharaja. I remember how anxious they were to break their connection with Hrdayananda M and establish what they believed was a real one. We have also heard that there were also certain inhabitants of Vraja 5,000 years ago, who were even willing to renounce scriptural injunctions to obtain their goal.

It just comes down to for what ever reasons, persons have taken or have been put in posts for which they are unqualified. Hridayananda M. presentations of Krsna Consciousness have clearly become mixed with the 'objective' perspective of the university professor mindset. He fought an uphill battle and lost at least for now, because he fought from a position of weakness not strength. It was the dictates of his own mind that sent him to graduate school in the first place, not the advice of a superior sadhu. I have heard his classes where he implicitly criticizes Srila Prabhupada's translations and gives his own unique perspective which often is way off the point of pure devotional service to Krsna. His socio-politcal views are just a part of a centrifugal drift away from the concepts of suddha Krsna bhakti. In reality he has already very much separated himself from mainsteam Iskcon but he is still, often requested to speak in the temples for eccentric, separatist programs have become the norm in the religio-political stalemate that exists within Corporate Iskcon, as it has become a ship without a true rudder.

dhyayan stuvams tasya yasas trisandhyam. One chants the diksa mantras given by Sri Guru at the beginning of each sandhyam, which means three times a day. So after diksa mantras one pays obeisances, dandavats to the Spiritual Master. But literally dhyayan means to meditate and the trisandhyam means the three parts of the day which is 8 hours times 3 = 24 hours. a day. IOW that one should meditate on the lotus feet of Sri Guru, 24 hours a day. Srila Prabhupada: But what is this conception of twenty-four hours of devotional service a day? Actually it is only possible in the line of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers, sri rupa-raghunatha-pade yara asa. Srila Prabhupada:

True, but for years he's seen Srila Prabhupada as big, big, big guru and Hridayananda as little guru. Recently his began to see him as little, little guru. Now he finally has the smoking gun and saw that he's little, little, little, little, little - wait a minute guru can't be that little, guru. Which means he aint no guru at all and you knew it all along! (okay so did I). Did you watch his video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU

When one has a siksa guru that is coming from another branch of Caitanya Saraswat line, he will have to harmonize the apparent differences between his siska guru and Srila Prabhupada. Then there will be a personal sythesis. In GBC dominated Iskcon, and in other similar circles such an approach is taboo. Hridayananda M. has fully absorbed the 'Comparitive Religions conception' that he learned in the university system and now teaches at the University of Florida (how 'bout them Gators!). Now he has haromized the teachings of Srila Prabhupada with the 'Comparitive Religions conception' and derived his unique personal sythesis. Hrdayananda M. is quick to flaunt his personal synthetic conception to all areas of the topic of Krsna bhakti and often rubs those who care for standard Gaudiya Vaisnavism the wrong way. Even from the 'comparitive religion conception' one would accept that a Gaudiya Vaisnava guru would be duty bound not to make that kind of synthesis. If so then one would no longer be within the definition of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. One who has taken the position of a Gaudiya Vaisnava guru has a sacred duty not to step that far out of bounds. In fact this is what can happen when we become to proud of our intellect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU

The followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur consider him to be a nitya siddha bhakta. IOW that he and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur came down from Goloka to serve Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu by expanding His divine mission (sankirtan). The followers of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami believe the same about him. If we think that we are nitya siddha, also, then we have no way in which to distinguish ourselves from them. It that sense, 'it all becomes one' which is similiar to the siddhantic mistakes made by the followers of Sankaracarya. Again why is the term 'nitya baddha' appear so many times in the Caitanya Caritamrta? The answer must be that it was used by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Himself. From the eternal viewpoint, everyone is nitya siddha, but we will not apply that viewpoint when thinking about our gurus who include the eternal associates of Krsna (parivars) because our logical conclusion would be anti-devotional. PS: And I also agree with Sonic Yogi in the last post #223.

From the angle of vision of time, the creation and dissolution of the material world, the expansion of Garbhodaksayi Visnu, Karanadaksayi Visnu and Ksirodaksayi Visnu, (the lila of creation); the spiritual body is something to attain. From the angle of vision of eternal Vaikuntha and Goloka, "The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body."[srila Prabhupada] These two apparently opposite concepts are both simultaneously, inconceivably, one and different, acintya bheda[a] bheda tattva. Yet to think that the eternal servants of Krsna fall or dream that they fall from their eternal service is an aparadha not bhakti or devotion. Therefore the siddhanta must properly adjust the different angles of vision to come to the devotional conclusion. It's only common sense, otherwise the words: nitya baddha, saddha siddha etc. would not exist.

Like I have said many times, there is a profound truth behind what Gauragopal is trying to communicate. The problem is in the explanation or communication that he gives. In his case he should just quote Srila Prabhupada. Now to summarize: communication breakdown, Its always the same, I'm having a nervous breakdown, Drive me insane!

I used to read Krsna kirti's blogs and sometimes communicated with him. Even four years ago, KK and Hridayananda were having spats over the Gay Rights issue. The blessing of the "gay marriage" was the last straw for him. Still KK is a big-time GBC loyalist and is often either apologizing for their postitions and actions or trying to exert some influence over them. So in his case this is more like an institutional political statement than a spiritual-religious one.

EDITORIAL January 1, 2000 VNN5195 Comment on this storyAbout the AuthorOther Stories by this Author Sadhana-Siddha, Nitya-Siddha <hr> BY SWAMI B.V. TRIPURARI EDITORIAL, Jan 1 (VNN) — "You ask who is right and who is wrong. You want an objective answer to a subjective reality. Guru is ultimately Krsna. If we find Krsna in a Vaisnava, proportionately we will honor him. A mere glimpse of Krsna warrants all regard." Q&A discussion with Swami B.V. Tripurari. Q. In Sanga 12/26 'where time meets eternity,' you said 'the guru who is a sadhana-siddha, who has perfected himself via sadhana, or spiritual practice, (the majority of gurus in our line) has spiritualized his or her practitioner's body (sadhaka-deha) over time.' Could you please elaborate further on 'the majority of gurus in our line who have perfected themselves via sadhana.' Aren't such gurus always perfected, eternal companions of the gopis (perhaps gopis themselves) who have come down to this plane to lift us up to their level? And when you say 'the majority of gurus,' what happens to the minority? If they are not 'perfected over time' does that mean that their disciples are just unlucky? A. The idea is that most of the gurus are sadhana-siddha, the others are nitya-siddhas. All are siddhas. The nitya-siddha is more rare, but not better, for both are siddha. The sadhana-siddha is one who becomes a siddha through sadhana and then serves in the capacity of guru. Narada Muni is a sadhana-siddha. His story is found in Srimad Bhagavatam. While the disciple may think of his or her guru as a nitya-siddha, he may very well be a sadhana-siddha. Most of Prabhupada's disciple think of him as a nitya-siddha. However, he himself used to say that in his previous life he was a doctor and committed no sins. Sridhara Maharaja clearly took the postion of a sadhana-siddha, as did every disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta in Gaudiya Math. Bhaktivinoda Thakura described himself as a sadhana-siddha as well, although Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura thought of him as a nitya-siddha, and taught that he was. Bilvamangala Thakura is the example of a sadhana-siddha pointed to in Bhaktirasamrta-sindhu, and Prahlada Maharaja is also considered a sadhana-siddha. In this way the list goes on. Q. The disciple sees the guru as nitya-siddha but non-disciples may see him as sadhana-siddha or simply as an ordinary man. Who is right, who is wrong? Disciples may see their guru as nitya-siddha but how should you, or I or any non-disciple view such feelings? Do we honor them as corresponding to reality? You cite A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as an example of a sadhana-siddha in our line. That brings to mind a song that you and Narasingha Maharaja wrote years ago in glorification of Srila Prabhupada. In the song you write that Srimati Radharani summoned her 'servant dear,' ordering him 'tomorrow on earth you will appear.' This seems to imply that prior to his appearance in this world Srila Prabhupada was already with Srimati Radharani. How then can he be a sadhana-siddha? A. Disciples may or may not see their guru as nitya-siddha. They may see him as sadhana-siddha. There is nothing wrong with this. It is also possible that he could be both! Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says regarding Prahlada and Narada Muni 'evam prahladasyamsena sadhana-siddhatvam nitya-siddhatvam ca naradadivaj jneyam.' Prabhupada comments, 'Prahlada Maharaja is a mixed siddha; that is, he is perfect partly because of executing devotional service and partly because of eternal perfection. Thus he is compared to such devotees as Narada. Formerly, Narada Muni was the son of a maidservant, and therefore in his next birth he attained perfection (sadhana-siddhi) because of having executed devotional service. Yet he is also a nitya-siddha because he never forgets the Supreme Personality of Godhead.' So now what? We should honor the vision of others as best as we can within reason. After all, others may be doing that with us when they honor our guru. As you mentioned, your vision may not be theirs. Krsna shows different things to different devotees. You ask who is right and who is wrong. You want an objective answer to a subjective reality. Guru is ultimately Krsna. If we find Krsna in a Vaisnava, proportionately we will honor him. A mere glimpse of Krsna warrants all regard...

<table id="post1124076" class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="thead" style="font-weight: normal;" align="right"> #203 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="alt1" style="border-top: 1px solid rgb(207, 207, 207); border-right: 1px solid rgb(207, 207, 207); border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(207, 207, 207); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex; background-color: rgb(239, 239, 239);" width="175"> Username: Sarva gattah <!-- v3 Arcade --> <!-- /v3 Arcade --> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: postbit_reputation --> <!-- edit sig --> <!-- /edit sig --> </td> <td style="border-top: 1px solid rgb(207, 207, 207); border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(207, 207, 207);" class="alt1" id="td_post_1124076"> <!-- icon and title --> <hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Germany, June 22, 1974</td></tr></tbody></table> Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83 <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)". <o:p></o:p> (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)". <o:p></o:p> (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The English word 'remember' however, is as good as the word 'regain', which Prabhupada uses in his books to descibe that our svarupa bodily form is never lost due to the 'eternal present' however, it can be forgotten due to our dreaming condition on the sub-conscious level of independant self centred desires. Such selfish self planning desires, activated by free will and choice, make us forget Krsna and the perpetual body we serve Krsna as because we want to creat our own existence in the body WE choose in a world without Krsna, in a world where we try to be the master. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In the meantime while we are chasing our dreams of self importance in our dreams that end up being within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva, our svarupa nitya-siddha body is ever fresh and in an eternal state of originality because there is only the present, which means past and future do not and can not exist.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are, everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is eternaly established, fixed and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)". <o:p></o:p> (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)". <o:p></o:p> (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginningless). <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (at least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, that seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So we should all try to understand our original position that is our eternal identity in Krsnaloka', as Prabhupada would say’.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka. There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', where there is no past or future, these things will be seen in another way. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> What is that other way that many say is conceivable to understand? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in Krsnaloka.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “One should be humble and know that he is subordinate to the Supreme Lord. Due to rebellion against the Supreme Lord, one becomes subordinate to material nature. One must know and be convinced of this truth.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.12, purport. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” . . . - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -“Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia <!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________ This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the PERISHABLE mahat-tattva that is a real phenomenon in one cornor of the Spiritual Sky yet is temporary. "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu" .4.29.83. </td></tr></tbody></table>

So by this logic you have defeated the idea of the tatastha being a place or plane, yet your angle of vision is true but can also be defeated by the logic that proves the tatastha is also a place. One angle of vision is from eternity, that the jivas are always existing and the other angle of vision is from the standpoint of being locked into a material time based language. The siddhanta expresses these thoughts through language in a particular way. No one can show where the sastra says that the jivas originate in Goloka for that would imply that Krsna's eternal associates fall down, which would be impudent. Yet when you write: You are expressing a though which is absolutely true as confirmed many times by Srila Prabhupada and I have already shown you this in the Jaiva Dharma. But the real guru is expert at applying these apparently contradictory concepts for the correct time, place and circumstance because he has a mature, developed relationship with Krsna. He is experiencing the real bliss of chanting the holy name of Krsna and we are all hankering after that experience. This is what we are really after, not being right or correct about the origin of the soul question. And besides even if we are correct, it can only be hollow words for us because we are not actually experiencing the spritual reality.

Every day each one of the regular Audarya posters is getting closer and closer to the troll within. Don't fear this process, but rather embrace it. Get up every morning and look in the mirror, and you will see the troll within is now gradually coming out. It is not that this troll picture has shown up on this thread by some random coincidence. Nothing takes place by chance.

39. When I give charity, I often do it grudgingly knowing that these guys are not really collecting for the temple. Then somehow I get changed-up, anyway and I wonder just what happened? 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7

25. I often quote Srila Prabhupada about cats, that cats are demoniac and cause women to have miscarriages, but in real life I have a cat named Fluffy that sleeps on my head at night. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7

Audarya Personality Inventory This test was designed by Dhira Govinda das, the Director of ISKCON Office for Child protection (Alachua, Florida). You can check which guna predominates your habits. *Scoring key is at the bottom Underline the number under each statement which corresponds the statement about you. 1 Very Strongly Disagree 2 Strongly Disagree 3 Somewhat Disagree 4 Neutral 5 Somewhat Agree 6 Strongly Agree 7 Very Strongly Agree 1. I am straightforward in my dealings with other people. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 2. I have very little interest in understanding why the Iskcon gurus are bogus. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 3. I am satisfied with my wife. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 3A. I am satisfied with my dog. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 4. Fruits and vegetables are among my dog's favorite foods. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 5. All living entities are essentially spiritual except the Iskcon gurus. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 6. In conducting my activities, I do not consider traditional wisdom. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 7. I often post without considering the future consequences of my actions. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 8. I usually feel discontented with life except when I am arguing with people on Audarya. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 9. I become happy when I think about the computer assets that I possess. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 10. I am good at using willpower to smash my opponents on Audarya. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 11. I enjoy spending time in internet hotspots. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 12. Computer cleanliness is very important to me. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 13. Others say that my tongue is very sharp. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 13 A.. Others say that GBC speak with forked tongue. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 14. I often feel depressed when there are no controversial subjects on Audarya. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 14A. I want to argue endlessly about the origin of the soul. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 15. I often put off or delay my responsibilities so that I can post on Audarya. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 16. I greatly admire materially successful people. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 17. When I write on Audarya, I really try not to irritate others. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 18. I believe life is over when my computer crashes. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 19. I often feel helpless. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 20. I enjoy foods with strong tastes. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 21. I am constantly dissatisfied with my position in Iskcon and want to be a bogus guru. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 22. Having possessions is very important to me. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 23. When things are tough, I want the U.S. Congress to bail out the rich bankers. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 24. I often feel like a victim of Iskcons bogus gurus. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 To Be Continued

Just like $100 contains $10, madurya contains santa. It doesn't mean that in an immature stage that the practitioner focuses on madhurya rasa, it means that one can understand that it is in the background. So the kama-gayatri and gopa-mantras are chanted in a reverential mood with the understanding that madhurya is far above our head. But we can understand that our acaryas are connected with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Rupa Goswami and this is what they came to give. It's like when a girl is a child and comes to the point of understanding that when she grows up the potential is there for her to get married and have children. Of course this analogy can be taken the wrong way, but I think some might get the point.