Vigraha

The dreaming Maha-Vishnu's dreams is where we go when we miss use our free will and choose to forget our perpetual 'svarupa' body in Goloka Kailasa Candra dasa explains - “Although he is constitutionally eternal, blissful, and cognizant, due to the littleness of his existence, he forgets his constitutional position of service to the Lord and is thus entrapped by nescience. And, under the spell of ignorance, the living entity claims that the Lord is responsible for his conditional existence." - Bhagavad-gita, Chapter 5, verse 15, purport<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> We all can enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation, however no-one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation. We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva (material creation) <o:p></o:p> An individual's svarupa, in direct relationship with the Lord, is an elaborate subject. One of five primary mellows (rasas) constitutes the svarupa of the living being in his perfectional stage. These primary rasas are exchanged in Vaikuntha or Goloka, in the eternal spiritual sky. How can we regain that particular relationship if we have never had it? How can we reclaim it if we had never had an active claim to it? How can it be revived if it was never operational? How can we have forgotten it if we never once remembered relishing it? "No-fall" does not answer these questions.

We are all presently dreaming within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> We are all presently dreaming within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Many skeptics and those who foolishly believe we originate from the Brahmajyoti ask – “Please where have you heard this idea that we originally came from Goloka? Who is teaching you this? Is this your own understanding?” ANSWER - Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse. Lecture Washington DC Temple 1976<o:p></o:p>

Theist many devotees have used the English words such as choice, option, preference, alternative, and selection to simply describe the free will that all marginal living entities have and given by Krishna in order for the marginal living entities to forever increase their love for Him - or miss use it for their own agenda .<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Every marginal living entity, not only has an eternal ‘svarupa’ body perpetually protected and sheltered within Krishna’s past times beyond the concept of the mundane time and space within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu, but also can establish a secondary consciousness (nitya-baddha) manifested simply by self centered choices, options, preferences, alternatives and selections that are all words describing the free will that all marginal living entities have. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This ability of free will also mean one has a choice, or as you say-<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “The fall idea hinges on a raw simple bare naked desire to experience life as the central enjoyer at which point one immediately begins his sojourn outside of his natural svarupa or rasa body. The same one he returns to when he reawakens to his svarupa”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Sojourning away from ones ‘svarupa’ body is called the nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness, which is ones non Krishna conscious thoughts, dreams and desires. Such selfish emotions can only temporarily exist 'embodied or housed' within the mahat-tattva, or Maha-Vishnu's creations of ethereal and biological vessels or containers that are ornaments and features, or parts and parcels of His mahat-tattva. What makes this difficult to understand, is from ones ‘svarupa’ bodily point of few, one actually never left Goloka because of the imperishable nature of Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, that is perpetually beyond what we call 'time', which really means impermenance. Srila Prabhupada has told us – ‘ actually no one leaves Goloka, they only ‘think’ they do’<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In other words every living entity (marginal potency) has an original perpetual devotional bodily form that is eternally serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, even if they have temporarily entered the mahat-tattva as a non Krishna conscious hallucination, dream, thought or desire (nitya-baddha) state<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Also the correct understanding of the living entities is All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ have the same (yet individual) perpetual bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The marginal potency or sparks emanating from the whole categorically means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form that IS their eternal 'svarupa' without beginning or end. Although ones 'rasa' (relationship) with Krishna can change in the Goloka or Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The marginal living entities connection to Krishna is compared to a fire (Krishna) from whence those individual sparks (marginal bodily living entities) come from. Another comparison is the Sun (Krishna) from whence the Sunrays (marginal bodily living entities) emanate and perpetually surround Krishna however, these analogies are only metaphors, allegories, figures of speech. Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire or a bright Sun in His Ultimate Bodily Form and neither are the marginal bodily individuals impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire or Sun in their full potential. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal bodily personalities in their original position that has no origin however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are ORIGINALY individual bodily Krishna Conscious personalities. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The Master (Krishna) and the servant (marginal individuals in their full expression and constitution) are called nitya-siddha svarupa eternal devotees of Krishna. In this way ALL living entities serve Krishna in an atmosphere beyond the mundane mahat-tattva time and space within the perpetual Goloka realm. <o:p></o:p>

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist Both suchandra and Kulapavanna are on track as far as I can see it. Bhakti is the point not Jnana. If ones siddhanta is so-called all in order but he has no Bhakti for Krsna what is the value of his knowledge? Conversely, as mentioned, the supremely high worship and love shown by the gopis is the considered the pinnacle rasa with Krsna. So Bhakti with little or limited jnana is infinetly more valuable than the reverse of perfect jnana and no bhakti. My feeling is we spend so much time on these less than important questions because we don't really want to love Krsna but yet we have seen through the material illusion of happiness to a certain extent so we are caught in between with topics like the moon etc I don't view Srila Prabhupada as an answer machine. Nor Gaudiya Vaisnavism in general either. NM group won't eat red veggies because some Purana says those veggies sprang from cow's blood. This kind of stuff just makes me roll my eyes. It is not just Iskcon beliefs on some things I question. But with GV teachings are to be found the highest most sublime concepts of theism imaginable and I won't toss this oppurtunity to learn even a few of them just because of some suspect statements and silly teachings. In short we get into trouble when we become too heady and start thinking we are some big scholars or philosophers or some kind of learned persons. We are all losers, defeated by maya. That is a better mood to have when approaching Krsna. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> The shruti-veda (Upanishad) confirms that the Supreme Truth, the Personality of Godhead never reveals Himself to anyone who is proud of his academic knowledge: nayam atma pravacanena labhyo na medhasa na bahuna srutena yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas tasyaisa atma vivrnute tanum svam "The Supreme Lord is not obtained by expert explanations, by vast intelligence, or even by much hearing. He is obtained only by one whom He Himself chooses. To such a person, He manifests His own form." The whole matter is explained by the Lord Himself, and one who has no approach to the Lord in His personal feature can rarely understand the purport of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. Without being taught by the bhagavata-devotees in the disciplic succession, it is practically impossible to understand the transcendental nature and qualities of the supreme Lord. Only by faithful devotion and absorption of the mind the qualities and nature of God will become revealed. Krishna is not bluffing when He says how one can mediate about the Supreme Lord. There is a instructive story in this connection, narrated by Srila Prabhupada: Narada Muni used to visit Narayana sometimes in Vaikuntha. Once when he was passing through a village, one very learned brahmana asked the great Muni, “great sage, were you are going?” “I am going to visit Lord Narayana,” he replied. "Oh, you are going see the Lord. Will you kindly ask Him, when I shall get my salvation?" "All right. I shall ask Him." Than the sage went further and later on met a cobbler. He was a very simple man who lived underneath a Banyan tree. When he saw Narada Muni, he greeted him and inquired, "Will you kindly inquire from God when you meet Him next time about my salvation?" “Okay, I will do it,” the sage replied, and went on his way to Vaikuntha. When he met Lord Narayana, he required from Him about this two persons – the brahmana and the cobbler: “…what is their destination?" Narayana said, "Well, the cobbler, after giving up his body, he's coming here to Me at Vaikuntha." "And what about that brahmana?" "Oh, he has to remain in the world of samsara for many more life’s. It depends on him, I do not know when he's coming." Narada, hearing this statement by the Lord, was astonished, that he had to ask Him, "I saw that he is a qualified brahmana, and the other one is just a cobbler. How is that? I cannot not understand the mystery behind it. Why do You say, that the cobbler is coming back to You, after his very life time and the Brahmana not?" "You will understand when they will inquire from you, ‘what Narayana, was doing when you were at His abode?' Then you just explain, that He was drawing an elephant through the eye of a needle". When Narada, after the darshan of the Lord went back to the earth and came through the same village as before, first he went to the brahmana’s house. The Brahmin greeted the sage happily and inquired, "Oh, Sadhu! You are already back! Have you seen the Lord?" "Yes." “What he told you about me?” “The Lord told, that he doesn’t know Himself when you will be ready for salvation.” “What?! He doesn’t know! Than what kind of God is this?! Anyway, can you tell Me what kind of engagement He did when you were there?” "He was drawing an elephant through the eye of a needle,” Narada replied. doing pulling an elephant through the eye of a needle." "Impossible!” the Brahmin burst out. “I cannot believe you. I think you ridicule me. I have all respect for your garb as a Sadhu, but I don't believe a word what you say." Then Narada could understand, “that this man had no faith in the supernatural activities and nature of the Lord. He simply reads and studies the books. That's all." Head shaking, Narada left the ashram of the Brahmana and went to the cobbler. The poor man was very happy to see the sage returning from the spiritual sky. After he greeted the Muni he also asked, "Oh, you have seen, what Narayana was doing?" The sage also told him the same thing, as advised by the Lord: "He was drawing an elephant through the eye of a needele.” “Aja, the cobbler began to cry, my Lord is wonderful! He can do anything." Narada seeing the ecstasy of the simple man inquired, "So do you believe that the Lord can push an elephant through the eye of a needle?" "Oh, why not? I must believe you. " "Then what is your reason?" "Oh, my reason? I am sitting under this banyan tree, and so many fruits are falling daily, and in each fruit there are thousands of seeds, and in each seed there is a tree. If in such a small seed there can be a big tree like that, than, is it impossible to accept that Narayana is drawing an elephant through the eye of a needle?” This is called faith. But not blind faith. They have a reason. If by Krishna's process, by God's process, or nature's process, such a big tree can be put within the small seed, is it impossible for Krishna to keep all these planets floating in His energy – to enter even the smallest and must subtle elements in creation? So, we have to believe it, because we have no other explanation – we cannot proof the opposite, that it is not like that. We have to understand it in this way as the Lord and His representatives are revealing it to us. Our reasoning, our argument, our logic should go in this way.

So what is the real meaning of nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) and nitya-baddha (eternally conditioned)? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘So the nitya-siddha maha-bhagavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach Krishna Consciousness. This is maha-bhagavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but maha-bhagavata. How it is tested? Never forgets <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, <U>because originally everyone is nitya-siddha.<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p></U> <u1:p></u1:p>nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya' kabhu naya<u1:p></u1:p> zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata". <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada:"Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport <u1:p></u1:p>

:deal: These exact quotes are what Srila Prabhupada has said on our origins. He clearly says that all of us have come from Goloka. Only a fool, rascal, mundane religionist, athiest, materialist to attached to their biological identity, the envious, the ignorant, the selfish, the impersonalist or mayavadi and the demons, will not understand and aggressively and angrily NOT accept this absolute truth that ALL of us come from Goloka or Vaikuntha. In fact such low class human beings will almost go to any hash extreme to prove their nonsense that we all originate from the Brahmajoyti. Aithough in all fairness there are many, many others all over the material universe who are innocent and simply in their early stages of Spiritual life, knowledge and developement, who wait patiently for their own devotional realizations to their Guru to reveal this truth Prabhupada has given us when they are ready. Srila Prabhupada - "So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna it only seems like a second" Prabhupada in letter to Australian devotees 1972 Srila Prabhupada: "He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krishna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies". (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) . Srila Prabhupada – “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger". Caitanya-caritamrta lecture delivered in San Francisco on February 18, 1967 Srila Prabhupada - "So we have to get out of this dream. Don’t you sometimes dream that tiger is eating you? Is there any tiger? You are simply thinking. So if you keep in Krishna consciousness, that nonsense thinking will go away". Caitanya-caritamrta lecture delivered in San Francisco on February 18, 1967 Srila Prabhupada - 'Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Krishna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by Krishna consciousness”. Caitanya-caritamrta lecture delivered in San Francisco on February 18, 1967 Srila Prabhupada on letter to Australian devotees 1972 - "We cannot say, therefore, that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become the Lord, immediately we are covered by 'maya'. Formerly we were with Krsna in His 'lila', or sport. But this covering of maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore [in the interim] many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant hen one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Prabhupada in letter to Australian devotees 1972<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> It is like a dream: "We are thinking it is a very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. To give another example: Krsna's friends were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed". Prabhupada in letter to Australian devotees 1972<o:p></o:p>

"However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas." Prema-pradipa,

If one is in an imperishable atmosphere then the very meaning of ‘imperishable’ is no one ever leaves as that constitution or foundational Krishna Conscious body they eternally are in Goloka or Vaikuntha. One can leave if they choose to reject Krishna however, they can only leave Goloka 'sub-consciously' like one leaves their present body while dreaming. The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal ‘svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ or ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position. Therefore the ‘perishable’ (nitya-baddha consciousness) is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones imperishable marginal identity while unconscious to their full constitutional nitya-siddha identity, which is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and 'always' in Goloka. Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15 reads as follows, explaining what imperishable means which is beyond the confines of material time and space: Babaji: The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time. therefore, whenever we make statements such as, 'the Jivas were created', 'thereafter the Jivas became bound by maya', 'the spiritual world became manifest', 'there is no aspect of maya in the constitution of the Jiva', material time influences our language. These kinds of statements are unavoidable in our conditioned state. For this reason, no statement concerning the Jiva and spirit is exempt from the jurisdiction of material time. Feelings of past present and future naturally creep in. therefore, while experiencing the import of the descriptions of the spiritual world an spiritual objects, people who are devoted to pure thinking experience the changeless nature of present time. Be very careful in this respect. Giving up the unwanted sense which is unavoidable (due to the influence of material time) try to experience the spirit........ I know at present you will not be able to digest these subtleties so quickly. As the spiritual influence will increase in your heart, so the spiritual understanding will easily increase, distinguishing it from the material conception. You body is inert and so are all the bodily activities, but you are not; you are an atomic conscious being. The more you are able to understand yourself, the more you will experience yourself as superior to the material world. Therefore, even if I explain it and you listen, you will not able to grasp it. The more you awaken your spiritual consciousness by taking shelter of the holy name, the more you will experience the spiritual world." (Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15.).

"Once Srila Prabhupada got a letter about a devotee in Australia who had been asked to leave the temple because he had a problem. Prabhupada was crying. He said, “This devotee has done so much service. You should fall at his feet and beg him to take up Krishna consciousness again. Why you are throwing him away? At least fall at his feet and beg him three times. If he still doesn’t come after that, then what can you do?” Prabhupada wanted every devotee to be treated very nicely and given every opportunity to remain in Krishna consciousness. At the same time, if someone was preaching mayavada philosophy or something, then Prabhupada had to take a strong action to protect the others". Jayapataka Swami:

Dhirasanta: Srila Prabhupada was walking in St. James’s Park, tapping his cane on the ice that had formed overnight. At one point he asked, “What does this mean?” We looked at each other and wondered what we should say. Prabhupada asked again, “What does this mean?” We couldn’t fathom what Prabhupada meant. Suddenly he said, “Ice is maya. The original constitution of water is liquid, but when it comes in contact with freezing weather it becomes hard ice. And when there is ice, there is the possibility that you may slip.” Prabhupada may have been breaking the ice because he didn’t want anyone to slip. He continued the analogy, explaining that the heart becomes hard, but just as the sun rises and melts the ice, in the same way the continued chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra softens the heart and reinstates the individual in his natural constitutional position.

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu – “When we "return" to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth” Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

Guruvani you brought up this subject of our eternal constitution, not me. The beauty about this web site is that it is not a dictatorship meaning you have no right to edit or dictate how others think or post Srila Prabhupada's correct understanding of our constitutional position. At least I believe that and have that right to post his comments. If you want a totalatarian dictatorship then start your own web site and be the lord and master controller of everything. Then you will have a web Site of 'yes devotees and Guests' who only believe in what you believe in. Didn't you criticize ISKCON of the same dictatorial tactics and now you want the moderaters to ban me Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: Fall down? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?” Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada - 'Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position'.Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it ia Srila Prabhupada - “We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities... Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are”. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 -- San Francisco, March 28, 1968 Srila Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2, 1975) :deal: So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second".

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83 “Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.” Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31 “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .” Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323. “By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport Srila Prabhupada “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

I believe everyone already knows the many quotes from Srila Prabhupada on this subject matter. The correct understanding is All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ have the same perpetual bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The marginal potency or sparks emanating from the whole categorically means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form that IS their eternal 'svarupa' without beginning or end. Although ones 'rasa' with Krishna can change in the Goloka or Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> The marginal living entities connection to Krishna is compared to a fire (Krishna) from whence those individual sparks (marginal bodily living entities) come from. Another comparrison is the Sun (Krishna) from whence the Sunrays (marginal bodily living entities) emanate and perpetually surround Krishna however, these analogies are only metaphors, allegories, figures of speech. Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire or a bright Sun in His Ultimate Bodily Form and neither are the marginal bodily individuals impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire or Sun in their full potential. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal bodily personalities in their oeiginal position however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are ORIGINALY individual bodily Krishna Conscious personalities. <o:p></o:p> The Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals in their full expression is called nitya-siddha svarupa eternal devotee’s of Krishna) that serve in an atmosphere beyond mundane mahat-tattva time and space. Every marginal living entity also has a secondary consciousness manifested simply by choice that is called the nitya-baddha consciousness that only can temporarily exist 'embodied' within the mahat-tattva or material creation.<o:p></o:p> In other words every living entity (marginal potency) has an original perpetual devotional bodily form that is eternally serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, even if they have temporarily entered the mahat-tattva in their dreaming (nitya-baddha) state. <o:p></o:p>

If it happens it will only be partical, there is still 427,000 years left in Kali-yuga, good post though. Sometime in the future there will be a 'short' golden age that will spread all over the whole planet of Lord Chaitanyas Sankirtan movement. We are at the very beginning of it. As you once said in another post "we've seen nothin yet" Can you imagine what six million devotees in LA would be like. The human race may get worse before it gets better, but it will get better long enough for billions of devotees to return back home back to Godhead. The Christians call this period the Rapture however, unknown to Christian theology, due to its primitive education, this is always happening because devotee are continuiosly returning back to Goloka or Vaikuntha from their 'dreams' in the mahat-tattva.

[url=" http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);"] Very well written

I have hear there is a group of Prabhupada disciples who started this, does anyone know anything about it? <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I have about 35 BTGs in storage, what are they doing in storage?? Today I'm going to hand them out for free and buy more off the BBT and hand them out, leave them at doctors surgerys, dentists, hairdressers and buses etc. And I know who would take a stand also.

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Changing ISKCON will not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but will come through continuous struggle as aspiring devotees attempt to continually struggle to become purified from the darkness of Kali-yuga. So we must straighten our backs and work for our own pure selfless Krishna Consciousness. Only when we ae pure can we help others. An evil man or dictatorial ‘devotee’ can't ride you unless your back is bent.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> A devotee who passively and naivly accepts evil is as much involved in it as a devotee who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it. Ignorance and ‘we didn’t know’ or 'we were just following' is no excuse<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition within ISKCON was not the strident clamor of the bad and dictatorial devotees, but the appalling silence and naivity of the good simplistic 'humble' devotees.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys an aspiring devotee's sense of values and his/hers objectivity. It causes him/her to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true. Power at its best is a devotees compassion implementing the demands of justice. Justice at its best is Krishnas punisment and our forgiveness, even for what we see are the most fallen, correcting everything and everyone, who are humble enough to realize they have strayed away from love of Krishna and Srila Prabhupada's mission. Is this the real mission of Lord Caitanya, to save even the murders and child molesters. There is a song composed by Narottama Dasa Thakura. He prays to Lord Caitanya "My dear Lord, please be merciful to me, because who can be more merciful than Your Lordship within these three worlds?" Actually, this is a fact. Not only Narottama Dasa Thakura but Rupa Gosvami also prayed to Lord Caitanya in this way. At the time of the first meeting of Lord Caitanya and Rupa Gosvami at Prayaga (Allahabad), Srila Rupa Gosvami said, "My dear Lord, You are the most munificent of all incarnations, because You are distributing love of Krsna, Krsna consciousness." When Krsna was personally present He simply asked us to surrender, but He did not distribute Himself so easily. He made con- ditions--"First of all you surrender." But this incarnation, Lord Caitanya, although Krsna Himself, makes no such condition. He simply distributes: "Take love of Krsna.'' Therefore Lord Caytanya is approved as the most munificent incarnation. Narottama Dasa Thakura says, "Please be merciful to me. You are so magnanimous, because You have seen the fallen souls of this age, and You are very much compassionate to them, but You should know also that I am the most fallen. No one is more greatly fallen than me." Patita-pavana-hetu tava avatara. "Your incarnation is just to reclaim the conditioned, fallen souls, but I assure You that You will not find a greater fallen soul than me. Therefore, my claim is first.''

Dynamic not stagnent, Yes very important, I have just read 'Beyond birth and death' again and my realizations are always expanding, understanding things I previously never understood. As Hari Sauri prabhu said 'One must have personal realizations of Srila Prabhupadas books and not just PH.d 'academic credentials'. In other words we must become more than just 'parrots' quoting so many slokas and Krishna katha. We must have personal realizations of what Srila Prabhupada has given us and then write them down as Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to do. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p>“Perfect this Krishna consciousness; try to understand the philosophy behind it. It is a science, not a bluff. We can speak from any angle of vision. Krishna consciousness is the great necessity of human society. Learn it and appreciate it, comprehend it and assimilate it—and teach it. It is very simple.”</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>“Unless you fully assimilate, understand, you cannot describe it. So two things... Simply reading will not help us.” </o:p><o:p>Instead of effortless sentiment and artificial repetition, Srila Prabhupada encourages us to assimilate, understand and enquire:</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>“So we request simply people that you accept this authoritative knowledge and try to assimilate it by your intelligence. It is not that you stop your argument and intelligence, simply blindly accept something. No. We are human beings, we have got intelligence. We are not animals that we shall be forced to accept something. No. Tad viddhi pripātena paripraśnena sevayā [bg. 4.34].”</o:p> .