Vigraha

Hari Bol !!

It is at that 'time', when one has finally re-established themselves as who they really are, (their endless nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally their Krishna Conscious identity), THAT the dark troublesome cloud of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva is lifted and no longer exists just as darkness can no longer exist in the presents of light. When one reaches this realization, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense AT ALL in Goloka.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or nitya-baddha consciousness' is finally dissipated from the mahat-tattva, like a fog lifting and revealing the sun or one's true nitya-siddha identity, only then does one become aware of their full Krishna Conscious spiritual potential as their real self (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) serving Krishna. It is at that 'time', when one has finally re-established themselves as who they really are, (their endless nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally their Krishna Conscious identity), the dark troublesome cloud of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva is lifted and no longer exists just as darkness can no longer exist in the presents of light. When one reaches this realization, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense AT ALL in Goloka. Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport Then Srila Prabhupada explains how we are all perpetually NITYA-SIDDHA serving Krishna in the eternal 'present' beyond the past, present and future within the mahat-tattva where our illusionay NITYA-BADDHA CONSCIOUSNESS dreams its own imaginary existence. Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968. The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you and I are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time where Krishna’s unlimited pastimes are perpetually going on. Every event in Goloka and Vaikuntha (the Personal Krishna conscious active part of the Spiritual World or Brahmajyoti is ever present. This is NOT the case in mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that takes up 25% of the spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti. When ever we speak or describe 'time' in the material world, it is always under the influence of material space and an impermanent reality that is under the constant influence of decay and the dualities suffering and enjoying. Krishna says ‘time I am destroyer of the worlds’, Bhagavad gita as it is 11:32, that is, the material worlds. Also whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jiva tattvas were created’, such concepts are not true because the jiva-tattvas were never created, in fact ALL jiva tattvas have always existed as their full bodily ‘svarupa’ potential and real self in Goloka but sometimes, due to free will and choice, ‘think, believe, dream and assume ’ they are not that eternal ‘svarupa’ body. Such thoughts immediately place them ‘sub-consciously’ in the divided time of past, present and future within ethereal and biological material bodies or vessels that has a side effect of decay, impermanance and ‘self importance’ within its own separate reality called the mahat-tattva. In this way the Jivas, in their secondary nitya-baddha self became bound by Maya’s past, present and future. The spiritual world of Goloka and Vaikuntha are perpetually manifest in the eternal present’, ‘there is no aspect of maya in the original NITYA-SIDDHA svarupa constitution of the Jiva Material time therefore ONLY influences the nitya baddha secondary conscious characteristics of the marginal living entity that can only manifest 'covered' by the mahat-tattva or uncovered (dormant, no active time) as part of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. For this reason, no statement concerning the NITYA-BADDHA is exempt from the jurisdiction of mundane material time and its bye product of impermanence and decay. In this way past present and future naturally are part and parcel of the lower secondary nitya-baddha consciousness but in the face of ones real genuine authentic nitya-siddha bodily, who one really is without beginning or end, the nitya-baddha consciousness is simply an illusion that has only a real but temporary existence. Srila Prabhupada clearly has told us that actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they (their svarupa body) never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down. Srila Prabhupada however further explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is referring to our perpetual svarupa body) Srila Prabhupada explains we are not fallen because we only 'think' or imagine' ourselves as our non-Krishna Conscious dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that projects us out of Goloka and Krishna’s pastimes that performed in the 'eternal present' as the Brahma samhita tells us. So in actual fact we don't go anywhere, we simply imagine we do. It must be clearly understood that ones svarupa body is NOT sleeping in Goloka, please understand that once and for all, it is only due to the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or nitya-baddha consciousness' is finally dissipated from the mahat-tattva, like a fog lifting and revealing the sun or one's true nitya-siddha identity, only then does one become aware of their full Krishna Conscious spiritual potential as their real self (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) serving Krishna.

Krishna says ‘time I am destroyer of the worlds’, Bhagavad-gita as it is 11:32. The correct understanding of what time is? The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you and I are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time where Krishna’s unlimited pastimes are perpetually going on. Every event in Goloka and Vaikuntha (the Personal Krishna conscious active part of the Spiritual World or Brahmajyoti is ever present. This is NOT the case in mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that takes up 25% of the spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti. When ever we speak or describe 'time' in the material world, it is always under the influence of material space and an impermanent reality that is under the constant influence of decay and the dualities suffering and enjoying. Krishna says ‘time I am destroyer of the worlds’, Bhagavad gita as it is 11:32, that is, the material worlds. Also whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jiva tattvas were created’, such concepts are not true because the jiva-tattvas were never created, in fact ALL jiva tattvas have always existed as their full bodily ‘svarupa’ potential and real self in Goloka but sometimes, due to free will and choice, ‘think, believe, dream and assume ’ they are not that eternal ‘svarupa’ body. Such thoughts immediately place them ‘sub-consciously’ in the divided time of past, present and future within ethereal and biological material bodies or vessels that has a side effect of decay, impermanance and ‘self importance’ within its own separate reality called the mahat-tattva. In this way the Jivas, in their secondary nitya-baddha self became bound by Maya’s past, present and future. The spiritual world of Goloka and Vaikuntha are perpetually manifest in the eternal present’, ‘there is no aspect of maya in the original NITYA-SIDDHA svarupa constitution of the Jiva Material time therefore ONLY influences the nitya baddha secondary conscious characteristics of the marginal living entity that can only manifest 'covered' by the mahat-tattva or uncovered (dormant, no active time) as part of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. For this reason, no statement concerning the NITYA-BADDHA is exempt from the jurisdiction of mundane material time and its bye product of impermanence and decay. In this way past present and future naturally are part and parcel of the lower secondary nitya-baddha consciousness but in the face of ones real genuine authentic nitya-siddha bodily, who one really is without beginning or end, the nitya-baddha consciousness is simply an illusion that has only a real but temporary existence. Srila Prabhupada clearly has told us that actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they (their svarupa body) never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down. Srila Prabhupada however further explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is referring to our perpetual svarupa body) Srila Prabhupada explains we are not fallen because we only 'think' or imagine' ourselves as our non-Krishna Conscious dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that projects us out of Goloka and Krishna’s pastimes that performed in the 'eternal present' as the Brahma samhita tells us. So in actual fact we don't go anywhere, we simply imagine we do. It must be clearly understood that ones svarupa body is NOT sleeping in Goloka, please understand that once and for all, it is only due to the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or nitya-baddha consciousness' is finally dissipated from the mahat-tattva, like a fog lifting and revealing the sun or one's true nitya-siddha identity, only then does one become aware of their full Krishna Conscious spiritual potential as their real self (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) serving Krishna. It is at that 'time' one has finally reestablished themselves as who they really are and always have been as their endless nitya-siddha-svarupa REAL ETERNAL body eternally. When one reaches this realization, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it in Goloka. Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport Then Srila Prabhupada explains how we are all perpetually NITYA-SIDDHA serving Krishna in the eternal 'present' beyond the past, present and future within the mahat-tattva where our illusionay NITYA-BADDHA CONSCIOUSNESS dreams its own imaginary existence. Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

The correct understanding of what time is explained very simply that even our good mate Gurvani can understand<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. <o:p> </o:p> Every event in Goloka and Vaikuntha (the Personal <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious active part of the Spiritual World or Brahmajyoti is ever present. This is NOT the case in mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that takes up 25% of the spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time. therefore, whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jivas were created’, such a concept is not true because they were never created, they have always existed as their full bodily ‘svarupa’ potential and real self in Goloka but sometimes, due to free will and choice, ‘think or believe and assume ’ they are not that eternal ‘svarupa’ body. Such thoughts immediately place them ‘sub-consciously’ in the divided time of past, present and future within ethereal and biological material bodies that has a side effect of decay and importance within its own separate reality called the mahat-tattva, ‘thereafter the Jivas became bound by Maya <o:p> </o:p> The spiritual world of Goloka and Vaikuntha are perpetually manifest in the eternal present’, ‘there is no aspect of maya in the original NITYA-SIDDHA svarupa constitution of the Jiva <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Material time therefore ONLY influences the nitya baddha secondary conscious characturistics of the marginal living entity. For this reason, no statement concerning the NITYA-BADDHA is exempt from the jurisdiction of material time. Feelings of past present and future naturally are part and parcel of the lower secondary nitya- baddha consciousness but in the face of ones real genuin authentic nitya-siddha bodily, that who one really is without beginning or end . Therefore, while experiencing the import of the descriptions of the spiritual world an spiritual objects, people who are devoted to pure thinking experience the changeless nature of present time. Be very careful in this respect<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada clearly has told us that actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they (their svarupa body) never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada however further explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is refering to our perpetual svarupa body)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada explains we are not fallen because we only 'think' or imagine' ourselves asour non-Krishna Conscious dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that projects us out of Goloka and Krishnas pastimes that performed in the 'eternal present' as the Brahma samhita tells us. So in actual fact we don't go anywhere, we simply imagine we do.

So from ones nitya-siddha perpetual body in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, the aspect of ones marginal identity (nitya-baddha) may manifest due to ones free will and choice to THINK IMAGINE AND ‘DREAM’ in a separated state from their svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna however, in absolute reality one is never separated from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body and ones rasa with Krishna. Factually, due to the eternal 'present’ ones relationships of servitude NEVER interrupted BECAUSE WHEN THE DREAM IS OVER IT WILL BE AS IF THEY NEVER LEFT, Srila Prabhupada says we only dream or think we are fallen, in actual fact we are NEVER fallen and only dream for a moment we are separated from Krishna. That IMAGINARY, THINKING AND DREAMING condition of sub-conscious restricted awareness is called the nitya-baddha conscious condition that enters the mahat-tattva to become covered by the illusion of moving between birth & death, heaven and hell, past & future where that ‘moment’ for the nitya-siddha can be trillions upon trillions of years to the nitya-baddha condition of consciousness. Srila Prabhupada- Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centred choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming. Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We can simply choose to do what we desire, think, dream, contemplate or imagine an exitence without Krishna because that is the freedom all marginal living entities are endowed with. In this way any marginal living entity in Goloka or Vaikuntha have the propensity to knowingly turn their back on Krishna and the perpetual body they eternally serve Krishna as. Even though most marginal living entities never ever fall down 'consciously' from Goloka, they still have that choice to pursue their non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts if they mediate on such things. EVERY living marginal entity has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that they have always been for eternity without beginning and without end. Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the nitya-baddha secondary aspect of the jiva-tatastha, seeing everything from the viewpoint of that secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and not from their nitya-siddha perpetual body that they have forgotten. Srila Prabhupada - “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada "We have come from God. Just like one man is put in the prison house. He has come from his free home. By his work he is criminal; therefore he is put into the prison house. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God. Our real home is Vaikuntha”,. Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.12.2 Bombay, April 13, 1976 Srila Prabhupada “But we have come here. How we have come, that is a very mysterious thing; but we are part and parcel. Why you are jumping with a jet plane to go to the moon planet? If you prepare yourself… There are methods; otherwise, why Krishna says, yanti deva-vrata? “If you want to go to the higher planetary system, you prepare yourself in this life. You’ll be next life…” Tyaktva deham: “You shall go there. Or if you want to remain, go to the planets of Pitrloka, you can go there. And if you prepare yourself to come to Me, back to home, back to God, you can do that.” So what should be our aim of life? We shall go to the higher planetary system or back to home, back to Godhead? “Back,” we say, because we have come from God. Just like one man is put in the prison house. He has come from his free home. By his work he is criminal; therefore he is put into the prison house. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God. Our real home is Vaikuntha. But we have come here. How we have come, that is a very mysterious thing; but we are part and parcel. Somehow or other… Bhaktivinoda Thakura has sung, anadi karama phale, padi ’bhavar?ava-jale. Somehow or other we have fallen this. Therefore the real aim of life, how to get out of this bhavar?ava, nescience, that is the aim of life. If we remain again like the monkeys and cats and dogs, eating, sleeping, mating, and dancing, that is not very responsible life. Every man should be responsible." Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.12.2 by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Bombay, April 13, 1976 We just have to become ‘Krishna consciously pure enough to realize it’ the ‘svarupa bodily identity’ of the marginal living always exists without any beginning or end. Those of us trapped in the material world in our secondary conscious state can only revive the memory (service) of what already exists because one is originally and perpetually nitya siddha eternally as Srila Prabhupada explains to us. He further explains we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen but in actual fact our ‘svarupa’ bodily identity is never fallen. Question - Are we dreaming the material world that is a real but a temporary phenomenon? Answer - The marginal living entity or jiva tatastha always has access to a twofold reality because of their marginal stastus that gives them the free will to choose, one as who they really are as their ‘svarupa bodily form’ that is there eternal nitya-siddha bodily identity that is always Krishna Conscious, and the other is their dreaming secondary consciousness called nitya-baddha that can only exist in a temporary changing atmosphere devoid of any bodily form, until one is provided one within the unpreserved maha-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. It is hard for us judge how Krishna gives out his causeless mercy and realizations to His dear devotees? Just because we may not understand that technically we are always with Krishna and presently we are only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking” we are not with Him, does not mean other devotees do understand this and have actually realized this truth of Krishna’s creation. Just because other cannot understand this, do we believe their misconceptions that we have originated from the Impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti? Bhakti yoga or loving devotion to Lord Krishna and His dear devotees is not based on jnana (knowledge) or imitation; it is purely based on the simplistic teaching of Lord Chaitanya and the congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra meant to deliver us back home back to Godhead – from whence we originally came from. The introduction of the Bhagavad-Gita as it is tells us Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position”

quotes by CCC "That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>From Bhagavad Gita Introduction: "The Lord says, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. One who can approach that spiritual sky is not required to descend again to the material sky. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> That mean that there is a posibility to fall down from the spiritual planets, is not an obligation because you are not entagled by your karma so you don't have to return, but if you want to descend from the spiritual world to the material world again, you can come. But when the souls comes to this plane they realize that this material world is hard and almost invariably don't come again to enjoy without Krsna, and if they come again is for preaching or to assist the Lord in other pastimes. "Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back. Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, 'Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,' I'll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I'll never become." Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967) "END OF QUOTE BY CCC <!-- / message -->75% of the living entities NEVER ever fall down 'consciously' from Goloka or Vaikuntha, and those who have 'fallen or come down sub-consciously' MOST NEVER EVER return to the material world HOWEVER, IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW, they ALL still have that choice to pursue their non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts if they want, but (MOST) choose NEVER AGAIN to leave their service within the pastimes of Lord Krishna. Therefore even in Goloka and Vaikuntha, 25% of the marginal living entities DO make that SELFISH foolish choice and therefore 'think' or 'dream' they are fallen and 'sub-consciously' (only as there secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, and NEVER AS THEIR NITYA-SIDDHA PERTUAL OR REAL IDENTITY) enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu. It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud cover, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones REBELLIOUS THOUGHTS, RATHER THAN FROM THEIR NITYA-SIDDHA BODY which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels fascilitated by Maha-Vishnu in a within His mahat-tattva 'dreaming' phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay, imagination, illusion and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky established permanantly within the never ending 'PRESENT' surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devs’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu (also Vishnu tattva) AND AROUND 33,000,000 demigods (jiva-tattva) who are also 'dreaming' as nitya-baddha. The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary. In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go and DREAM with their thoughts of imagination and mistaken desires when they choose to have their ‘moment’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, an almost eternity, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left. There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity, time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning or end like all marginal living entities or nitya-siddha-svarupa devotee’s that are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always exited without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us. All jiva-tatastha or marginal living entities (‘souls’) therefore are never created nor do they EVER appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as A PLANE SHEET OF CONSCIOUSNESS as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasi’s believe. EVERY living marginal entity OR JIVA-TATASTHA has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that the jiva-soul has always been in the perpetual 'present' in Goloka for eternity without beginning and without end. Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the nitya-baddha secondary aspect of the jiva-tatastha, that is the conditional state of the living entity in the material world (dream) All of us are presently seeing our existence from the viewpoint of that secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and NOT from our Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha 'svarupa' perpetual body that we have all forgotten. Srila Prabhupada “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world and that I am simply Krishna’s servant.- Eternal servant., we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation” lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only” The occurrence of time only exists in the perishable mahat-tattva due to the phenomenon of past, present and future where as only the present exists in perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. Therefore no one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka, please understand that once and for all. It is only because of the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or the nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated, and one has returned to their full spiritual potential and awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna. Once one has returned one realizes themself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it in Goloka. Also a special thanks to His Holiness Ramai Swami Maharaj for his class this morning - "O Lord, with this corpselike body, always full of fear, we bear the burden of the relative happiness of kings, which is just like a dream. Thus we have rejected the real happiness of the soul, which comes by rendering selfless service to You. Being so very wretched, we simply suffer in this life under the spell of Your illusory energy". Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.70.28 <!-- edit note -->

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Murali_Mohan_das All this chatter, and not one person from the "fall from Goloka" camp has attempted to answer the question below. It seems like such a simple question. It should be easy to answer. How is it useful to think that we are nitya-siddha? What is the mood shown by the great Vaishnavas? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> It is not a question of thinking we are nitya siddha prabhu because perpetually (way beyond the concept of originally) we ARE ALL nitya siddha Krishna Conscious devotees of the Lord but presently 'think' 'imagine' and 'dream' we are not who we really are (nitya-siddha). Our eternal 'svarupa body' is our real genuin identity in the 'eternal present' that only exists in Goloka and Vaikuntha. This is not really that difficult to understand.

Quote:CCC <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0> "Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions." Pay very attention to the question Jagadisa is asking if the conditioned soul has ever seen Krsna, the conditioned soul!! not the liberated soul!!! (is obvious that the liberated soul has seen and see Krsna). So Srila Prabhupada replied Him yes. Just before the conditioned soul get conditioned we have seen Krsna in his Mahavishnu form and He injected us in the mahat tattva as a father inject the soul in the womb of the mother also this mean that the conditioned soul has the chance to see Mahavishnu when He enter Him after the aniquilation of the universe and enter in the susupti state. so when we are in our original liberated state we can see Lord Krsna face to face and we are in his lilas (First question above), and when we are conditioned we can see Lord Krsna as Mahavishnu (NOT in Krsnaloka or vaikhunta) before entering and after leaving the destroyed universes in his maha vishnu form otherwise we can't see lord Krsna (In Goloka or Vaikhunta) in the conditioned state only if He descends but this is not the line of the question. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Correct however Srila Prabhupada further says that even before that we were all with Krishna. There are some who are suggesting our original position comes <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:PersonName>from</st1:PersonName> an impersonal beginning if we are not all originally nitya-siddha? Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or from a plane sheet dreamless consciousness. If we believe this way then we are no better than Mayavardis or Impersonalists. We also certainly did not originate from Maha-Vishnu, it is only our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that takes shelter within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and subsequently merges into His body at the end of each of His material creations, remaining dormant until the next creation of the maha-tattva. (that is if they desire to continue their 'dream' that denies their real perpetual nitya-siddha bodily identity in Goloka. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in His Lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami 1972 <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down <st1:PersonName>from</st1:PersonName> Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami 1972 <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, <st1:date Month="12" Day="7" Year="1974">December 7, 1974</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter <st1:PersonName>from</st1:PersonName> Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls <st1:PersonName>from</st1:PersonName> the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go (nitya-baddha consciousness). It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky. <o:p></o:p> Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Then Srila Prabhupada explains how we are ALL are originally nitya siddha <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, <st1:PersonName>from</st1:PersonName> time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, <st1:date Month="2" Day="18" Year="1977">February 18, 1977</st1:date><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.<o:p></o:p>

Good observation and well explained - Even though most marginal living entities (75%) never ever fall down 'consciously' from Goloka, they still have that choice to pursue their non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts if they want, but choose NEVER to leave their service within the pastimes of Lord Krishna however, 25% do make that foolish choice and therefore 'think' or 'dream' they are fallen and 'sub-consciously' (as nitya-baddha) enter the mahat-tattva. It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud cover, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devs’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu. The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary. In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go when they choose to have their ‘moment’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left. There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity, time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning or end like all marginal living entities or nitya-siddha-svarupa devotee’s that are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always exited without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us. All jiva-tatastha ‘souls’ therefore are never created nor do they EVER appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as A PLANE SHEET OF CONSCIOUSNESS as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasi’s believe. EVERY living marginal entity OR JIVA-TATASTHA has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that the jiva-soul has always been in the perpetual 'present' in Goloka for eternity without beginning and without end. Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the nitya-baddha secondary aspect of the jiva-tatastha, that is the conditional state of the living entity in the material world (dream) All of us are presently seeing our existence from the viewpoint of that secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and NOT from our Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha 'svarupa; perpetual body that we have all forgotten. Srila Prabhupada “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world and that I am simply Krishna’s servant.- Eternal servant., we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation” lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

The Answer to your question is the ‘svarupa bodily identity’ of the marginal living always exists without any beginning or end. Those of us trapped in the material world in our secondary conscious state can only revive the memory (service) of what already exists because one is originally and perpetually nitya siddha eternally as Srila Prabhupada explains to us. He further explains we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen but in actual fact our ‘svarupa’ bodily identity is never fallen. Question - Are we dreaming the material world that is a real but a temporary phenomenon? Answer - The marginal living entity or jiva tatastha always has access to a twofold reality because of their marginal stastus that gives them the free will to choose, one as who they really are as their ‘svarupa bodily form’ that is there eternal nitya-siddha bodily identity that is always Krishna Conscious, and the other is their dreaming secondary consciousness called nitya-baddha, yet can only exist in a temporary changing atmosphere devoid of any bodily form, until one is provided one within the unpreserved maha-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu? It is hard for us judge how Krishna gives out his causeless mercy and realizations to His dear devotees? Just because we may not understand that technically we are always with Krishna and presently we are only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking” we are not with Him, does not mean other devotees do understand this and have actually realized this truth of Krishna’s creation. Just because other cannot understand this, do we believe their misconceptions that we have originated from the Impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti? Bhakti yoga or loving devotion to Lord Krishna and His dear devotees is not based on jnana (knowledge) or imitation; it is purely based on the simplistic teaching of Lord Chaitanya and the congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra meant to deliver us back home back to Godhead – from whence we originally came from. The introduction of the Bhagavad-Gita as it is tells us Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position”

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only” The occurrence of time only exists in the perishable mahat-tattva due to the phenomenon of past, present and future where as only the present exists in perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Therefore no one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka, please understand that once and for all. It is only because of the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or the nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated, and one has returned to their full spiritual potential and awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna. Once one has returned one realizes themself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it in Goloka. <o:p></o:p> The nitya-baddha 'dreaming’ consciousness aspect of the jiva=tatastha is not moving from one body to the next. Krishna says the soul is immovable in the Gita. The only movement there is is one of nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness and not movement as understood and experienced under the influence of material time and space. <o:p></o:p> So from ones marginal svarupa body in Goloka- Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, the marginal nitya-baddha may manifest due to ones free will and choice to ‘dream’ in a separated state from their svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna however, in absolute reality one is never separated from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body and ones rasa with Krishna. <o:p></o:p> Factually, due to the eternal 'present’ ones relationships of servitude NEVER interrupted BECAUSE WHEN THE DREAM IS OVER IT WILL BE AS IF THEY NEVER LEFT, Srila Prabhupada says we only dream or think we are fallen, in actual fact we are NEVER fallen and only dream for a moment we are separated from Krishna. <o:p></o:p> That dream condition of sub-conscious restricted awareness is called the nitya-baddha conscious condition that enters the mahat-tattva to become covered by the illusion of moving between birth & death, heaven and hell, past & future where that ‘moment’ for the nitya-siddha can be trillions upon trillions of years to the nitya-baddha condition of consciousness. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada- Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centred choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> We can simply choose to do what we desire or imagine because that is the freedom all marginal living entities are endowed with. In this way any marginal living entity in Goloka or Vaikuntha have the propensity to knowingly turn their back on Krishna and the perpetual body they eternally serve Krishna as. Even though most marginal living entities (75%) never ever fall down 'consciously' from Goloka, they still have that choice to pursue their non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts if they want. <o:p></o:p> It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud cover, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devs’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu. <o:p></o:p> The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary. <o:p></o:p> In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go when they choose to have their ‘moment’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity, time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning or end like all marginal living entities or nitya-siddha-svarupa devotee’s that are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always exited without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us. All jiva-tatastha ‘souls’ therefore are never created nor do they EVER appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as A PLANE SHEET OF CONSCIOUSNESS as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasi’s believe. <o:p></o:p> EVERY living marginal entity OR JIVA-TATASTHA has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that they have always been for eternity without beginning and without end. Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the nitya-baddha secondary aspect of the jiva-tatastha, seeing everything from the viewpoint of that secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and not from their nitya-siddha perpetual body that they have forgotten. <o:p></o:p> In other words, modern day 21st century Vaishnavism are seeing everything from the viewpoint of the nitya-baddha consciousness that is given ethereal and biological bodies or vessels by Maha-Vishnu. In this way, the description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the nitya-baddha conscious aspect of the jiva-tatastha covered by the inferior energy (the mahat-tattva) and the nitya-baddha consciousness (the lower secondary characteristic of the marginal living entity dreaming in a dreamless state in the surrounding impersonal portion of the Brahmajyoti that only CONSCIOUSLY’ separates Vaikuntha (Superior energy) from the maha-tattva (inferior energy). <o:p></o:p> The fact is 100%, or ALL of the marginal living entities or jiva-tatastha are eternally in their original position as nitya-siddha devotee of whom some (UP TO 25%) are simultaneously 'DREAMING’ in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless conscious projection that is provided ethereal and biological material vessels by Maha-Vishnu.

Some devotees once said in Mayapur that it is too difficult to understand how we originally feel down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed. Here is Srila Prabhupada's response. Srila Prabhupada - "No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult". Acyutananda - "It is not difficult. They don't want to understand". Srila Prabhupada - "Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel". Acyutananda - "But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns." Srila Prabhupada - "But if he likes, he can return". Acyutananda - "He can return". Srila Prabhupada - "That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown".Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: Fall down? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?' Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad Bhagavatam Class Srila Prabhupada - "Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only 'think' they are fallen or 'dream' they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down". Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupadfa of how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) as our dreaming nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness Srila Prabhupada - "So as eternal servitors of Krishna-our constitutional position-we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall". Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967 This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky. Srila Prabhupada - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83. Srila Prabhupada - "This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation." Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

The correct translation from the teachings of Jiva Gosvami - <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> The jiva-sakti is not included within the svarupa-sakti that refers to superior energy, which are Krishna and His Vishnu tattva expansions. The jiva-sakti is also not included within the maya-sakti or the inferior energy or the Lord known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is the dream of Maha-Vishnu. The jiva sakti is totally independent and can choose to serve the superior energy or be covered and a slave to the inferior energy. In this way the independent marginal living entity is known as tatastha-sakti. This also means the marginal living beings can choose to remain as their perpetual svarupa body serving Krishna in Goloka in the eternal 'present', or can choose to be covered by the inferior energy or the temporary bodily vessels that are on offer within the mahat-tattva or material creation. This mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu takes up and attracts only 25% of the living entities in creation to 'consciously' abandon their perpetual service to Krishna and their 'svarupa' body that is their eternal bodily form that has no beginning or end within Goloka and Vaikukuntha. <o:p></o:p> The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land, which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land. <o:p></o:p> The above means the marginal living entities can choose to serve Krishna AS their original svarupa position within the perpetual 'present, or can choose to forget that genuine eternal bodily identity that is always their in Goloka or Vaikuntha and be covered [like a cloud or dream] by the mahat-tattva's illusionary [temporary] ethereal and biological vessels. Tatastha also means being completely independent and in between the influence of the Superior and inferior energy (they are not Vishnu-tattva nor belong to the mahat-tattva), they have their own ‘marginal identity' that is not part of both the superior energy [Krishna, His Vishnu-tattva expansions] and the inferior energy the [maha-tattva or material lifeless energy] (that’s why it’s called marginal) yet paradoxically are 'dependant on Krishna in Goloka or Maha-Vishnu within the material creation or mahat-tattva) <o:p></o:p> In his Paramatma-sandarbha, Jiva Gosvami has described the tatastha-sakti as follows: “The jiva-sakti is known as tatastha-sakti for two reasons. First of all it cannot be included within mayasakti for it is beyond maya-sakti (This means the marginal living entity you and I are not part of the inferior energy or mahat-tattva, but can be covered by it). Secondly, although jiva-sakti is overcome by ignorance, the defect of being overcome in this way cannot touch the Paramatma (Maha-Vishnu - Kshirodakasayi Vishnu accompanies the marginal living entity as Paramatma ONLY while covered by ethereal and biological vessels because those vessels are the property of Paramatma (maha-Vishnu) situated in his heart of His bodily creations). <o:p></o:p> This is understood by the following analogy. We see that shade or clouds can cover some portion of the sun’s rays, but the sun itself cannot be covered. Similarly, the individual marginal living entity, who is vibhinnamsa, a separated part of Him is always as their full potential perpetually vigraha form established as their svarupa body in their original position in the eternal ‘present’ that can be forgotten or covered by the mahat-tattva like clouds or shade cover the sun. <o:p></o:p> In this way the marginal living entity can 'come down and be covered by the mahat-tattva', not as their svarupa body, but rather in a dreaming conscious state called nitya-baddha that can come about due to being marginal, or independent and having the ability to choose. Krsna Himself can never be covered. “From this it may be understood that the jiva-sakti or jiva-tattva is separate from the svarupa-sakti or Vishnu-tattva for the following obvious reasons. Svarupa-sakti or Vishnu-tattva is present AS the Paramatma or Maha-Vishnu - Kshirodakasayi Vishnu. <o:p></o:p> If the jiva-sakti (marginal living entity) were included within the svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattva), then the defect of the jivas (marginal living entities) being overcome by ignorance would be transposed upon the svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattva) situated within as Paramatma or (maha-Vishnu - Kshirodakasayi Vishnu) well and ultimately upon the Paramatma Kshirodakasayi Vishnu (Maha-Vishnu) Himself. <o:p></o:p> Since that is not the case, it is evident that the jiva-sakti (marginal living entity) is not included within svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattva's). Consequently, because the jiva-sakti (marginal living entity) is included neither within svarupa-sakti (Vishnu-tattvas) nor within mayasakti (mahat-tattva), it is known as tatastha-sakti (neither part of the superior (Vishnu tattva's) or inferior energy (mahat-tattva or material creation”).

In actual fact NO-ONE FALLS DOWN, but not in the way Kundali/Satyanarayan explain in their book "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall". <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Why? Because we are now only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking’ that we are not there in Goloka or Vaikuntha when in actual fact our svarupa body is ALWAYS there regardless. Srila Prabhupada explains clearly to us that our original position is ALWAYS in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen OR NOT THERE. In fact we are not fallen, we only 'IMAGINE, BELIEVE or have convinced ourselves that we are fallen due to our mistaken selfish desires. <o:p></o:p> There argument is therefore with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world and that I am simply Krishna’s servant.- Eternal servant. That’s all. Lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that I have nothing to do with this material world and that I am simply Krishna’s servant.- Eternal servant., we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only” <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) <o:p></o:p> This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky. <o:p></o:p> In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explain very clearly to his disciples and grand disciples to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka. <o:p></o:p> There is no region, place or plane called tatastha, the jiva souls ARE the jiva-tatastha's. Also they are NOT inbetween the material and Vaikuntha realm but rather choose between SERVING the Superior energy (Krishna and His expansions) or being COVERED by and a slave to the inferior energy (maha-tattva) <o:p></o:p> In other words, one can stay in Vaikuntha as their 'svarupa' body or 'dream' of an imaginary self COVERED by the material energies ethereal and biological vessels within the mahat-tattva. <o:p></o:p> In actual fact NO-ONE FALLS DOWN, but not in the way Kundali/Satyanarayan explain in their nonsense book. Why? Because we are now only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking’ that we are not there in Goloka or Vaikuntha when in actual fact our svarupa body is ALWAYS there regardless. Srila Prabhupada explains clearly to us that our original position is ALWAYS in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen OR NOT THERE. In fact we are not fallen, we only 'IMAGINE, BELIEVE or have convienced ourselves that we are fallen due to our mistaken selfish desires. <o:p></o:p> All glorious to Srila Prabhupada

Are sure you are not an impersonalist Begger? There is no region, place or plane called tatasha, the jiva souls ARE the jiva-tatastha's. Also they are NOT inbetween the material and Vaikuntha realm but rather choose between SERVING the Superior energy (Krishna and His expansions) or being COVERED by and a slave to the inferior energy (maha-tattva) In other words, one can stay in Vaikuntha as their 'svarupa' body or 'dream' of an imaginary self COVERED by the material energies ethereal and biological vessels within the mahat-tattva. Also CCC's Grades: Part 1 F Part 2 F are very true, very well written. It's also very clear that when Svarupa talks of other sects, he means the Gaudiya math who Srila Prabhupada instructed his genuine disciples to avoid completely, ISKCON has nothing to do with the present mundane version of the Gaudiya math :deal: :deal:

There is no difference between Prabhupada's books, tapes, letters, morning walks and classes.

Yes, "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp. "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp. "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY, he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp. In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently. So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul. It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities. If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96) If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy. Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

Thats a fair point, anyway - "The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes. In its diseased condition, the spirit soul engages in material activities under the material covering. Realsense enjoyment is possible only when the disease of materialism is removed. In our real spiritual form, free from all material contamination, pure enjoyment of the senses is possible".Srī Isopanisad 11 Srila Prabhupada's purport Text 11 purport "The position of the jiva is a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original positon".- Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 101. "The position of the jiva is a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original positon" - Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 101. The pratisthacharya of the Sri sampradaya, Srila Ramanujacharya also states: atma-svarupa-matrasya prag eva siddhatve'pi karma-bandha-vinirmuktaparicchinna-jnanadi-svarupasya hy atravirbhava ucyate. "Here it's stated that the specific form of the jiva's constitutional body was known, existing in perfection. Upon the manifestation of that form of unlimited knowledge, the jiva is freed from karmic bondage". - Vedanta-sara commentary on Vedanta sutra 4.4.2 "Upon attaining the goal of the Supreme Soul, He serves in his own personal luster and color and in his own personal form of bliss. At that time, the jiva again attains his imperishable form, completely uncovered and free from impediment". - Pada-ratnavali commentary to Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48 Jiva Gosvami's commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam also states the jiva has an eternal perpetual form 11.11.3: vastuto nitya-mukto'pi pratitito 'nadi-baddha iti yugapad ubhayatvam ghatata ity arthah. "Simultaneously, both are transpiring: the jiva is eternally liberated in substantive form and is bound without beginning". We are considered eternally conditioned, because it has been such a long, long time. The history can never be traced out. The history may well be previous to this kalpa's Brahma. The history of our conditioning is before the material creation: "And some of them, those who are not fit to live in that spiritual world, they are--I mean to say--sent to this material world". - Srila Prabhupada Lecture, Buffalo, April 23, 1969

Whats wrong with this? Its very clear - "The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna AND His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)" Read it correctly this time prabhu, where did you get the word infinitesimal from? Maybe a long time ago when I mixed up the words infinitesimal with infinite. Lets make it clear for you - The marginal living entities (jiva-tatasthas) are compared to the sunshine and Krishna and His purusha expantions (Vishnu etc) are compared to the sun. (Both originally founded in perpetual bodily forms) As Prabhupada once said 'Some people look at the moon and accept it as it is while others only look at the moon and try to find faults'. Frankly prabhu, we don't mind even such mundane fault finding because this subject has to be clearly understood. An that is we all originated from Goloka. Even the trapped soul in a big worm in stool originally, a long, long time ago, came down from Goloka or Vaikuntha (obviously not as their eternal svarupa body as by now you all must have CLEARLY understood) Guruvani cannot understand this fact.

"Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now materially manifested, being covered by the material body and mind. The activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of the activities of the original, spiritual senses.... In our pure spiritual form, free from all material contamination, real enjoyment of the senses is possible.Śrī Īśopaniṣad 11 purport <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Some say up the road from Mayapur that we have not fallen down from Goloka and no one can fall from Goloka. They also claim we have never been in Goloka to fall from there. The pure devotees of Krishna are infallible as Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita". <o:p></o:p> Yes, that is true, we can never fall as Srila Prabhupada has ALWAYS BEEN TRYING TO GET THROUGHT TO US. Try to understand that our svarupa body can never fall from Goloka - <o:p></o:p> "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all, when the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> The following verse from Krsna Book refers to souls withdrawing from MATERIAL EXISTENCE and on their way to re-establishing their relationship with Krishna, therefore they first go to a place in the material world where Krishna is having His transcendental pastimes before they go back home, back to Godhead and awakened to their perpetual “svarupa body” that has always been in Goloka - <o:p></o:p> "Those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna’s association in the universes within the material world. Krsna’s pastimes are continually going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across this earthly planet, so Krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly." Srila Prabhupadas Krsna Book <o:p></o:p> It is very clear that Krsna Book is referring to the conditioned souls withdrawing from MATERIAL EXISTENCE (the mahat-tattva) and on their way back to re-establishing or reawakening their eternal svarupa bodily relationship with Krishna that is perpetually founded in Goloka or Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> Krsna's pastimes are always present in the material world in one of the many universes. These pastimes appear in the universes one after the other, just as the sun moves across the sky and measures the time. Krsna's appearance may be manifest in this universe at one moment, and immediately after His birth, this pastime is manifest in the next universe. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada has clearly confirmed that we did indeed come from Goloka and we can fall down (not as our perpetual svarupa body as already explained) from Goloka if we choose to miss use our free will. <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking. <o:p></o:p> Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect us from that desire? <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this <o:p></o:p> Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that? <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence. <o:p></o:p> Vipina: And no love. <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? (laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape? - 760708ed.wdc Conversations So it is a fact that we have all originally come from Goloka.

The Vaikunthas are the perpetual abode of Krishna that represents the full meaning of the word REALITY (without beginning or end and always imperishable) This endless part of the creation or Spiritual Sky is where the full conscious potential of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) is fully perpetually manifest, forever present and eternally founded as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily form that is fully awake in the service of the Lord. The mahat-tattva or the material creation, that includes the ethereal and biological bodily vessels, on the other hand, is the dreaming creation of Maha-Vishnu. The material creation is also an illusionary place for the dreaming. It is where the marginal living entity can enter (not as their perpetual svarupa body) but in a dreaming state of forgetful consciousness This phenomenon only happens when one choose to miss use their free will and ignore Krishna AND their own eternal transcendental svarupa body they serve Krishna as. "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination". (Bhag.11.2.38) "So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83. The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA) Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander. Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks of light particals within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness. In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes, they also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space. All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below - “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Srila Prabhupada's Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36) “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974 “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11 “These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas–explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control.” Cc. Madhya, 25.42 “The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], Krishna. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48 “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada The Kingdom of God is an Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional Place that is ever lasting and never aging, therefore the nitya-siddha-svarupa bodies are always there in Goloka and Vaikuntha – Nitya-siddha means — eternally established. This is what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never changing (although lila-rasa — the mellows of a pastime, can change in the spiritual universe). On the other hand eternally conditioned or nitya-baddha is only a temporary stated of consciousness of the marginal living entity as Explained by Srila Prabhupada - Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, NOTE - Eternally conditioned means nitya baddha. Eternally liberated means nitya siddha Only nitya siddha is truly perpetual

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The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA) Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander. Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks of light particals within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness. In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes. They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space. All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below - “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Srila Prabhupada's Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36) “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974 “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11 “These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas–explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control.” Cc. Madhya, 25.42 “The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], Krishna. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48 “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada