Vigraha

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WWYGEM19cUk

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Srila Prabhupada the eternal nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna. Why? Because he chooses to never forget Krishna

Srila Prabhupada - "We are marginal energy! Marginal means sometimes internal, sometimes external. When we are under the internal energy, that is our normal life, and when we are under the external energy, that is our abnormal life. Therefore, we are called marginal energy; we can be either this way or that way. But being qualitatively one with the purusa, our tendency is to remain in the internal energy. Being in the external energy is our artificial attempt".letter to Lilavati prabhu April 25, 1969 Allston, Mass USA

nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha is every marginal living entity. Originally everyone is nitya-siddha Srila Prabhupada - “Your next question, "Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul? We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated? You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent. Therefore a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with? <o:p></o:p> Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti. Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.” <o:p></o:p> Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down. That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected. <o:p></o:p> “Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “If one understands Krsna, then all the departments of knowledge are part and parcel of that understanding. Krsna is transcendental, for He is always situated in His eternal internal potency. The living entities are manifested and are divided into two classes, eternally conditioned and eternally liberated. Such living entities are innumerable, and they are considered fundamental parts of Krsna. Material energy is manifested into twenty-four divisions. The creation is effected by eternal time, and it is created and dissolved by external energy. This manifestation of the cosmic world repeatedly becomes visible and invisible”. Bhagavad gita as it is Chapter 18. Conclusion--The Perfection of Renunciation <o:p></o:p> <o:p>"Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has turned his face away from the Lord from time immemorial". - Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya lila, 20.108.</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned but factually every marginal living entity has these two fold characteristics. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease. </o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-02-27 Los Angeles</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>"This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant". - Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.5.19, purport.</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>Srila Prabhupada - "This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered". Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 </o:p>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MieDFkhlByo

The biological human body is a garment provided by Maha-Vishnu that is made up of billions of other embodied jiva-bhutah's each at different stages of evolving from a single cell through to complex organs on their path of evolving back to the biological human form. All jivas that enter the lower species of life have previously fallen from the human biological body or vessel. Before that they enjoyed in their celestial body or ethereal form in the heavenly planets. When that form falls to the middle planetary system it is further covered by the human biological body. It is due to sinful and lusty activity that one falls further to the lower species and ethereal hellish real of the three aspects of creation in the mahat-tattva. Human biological existence on the middle planetary systems is not possible without the complex existence of lower life forms. Biological life can only be sustained within the mahat-tattva under Krishna’s arrangement by having to 'feed' off other biological bodies or vessels that house the soul. In this way every cell is the vessel of a trapped jiva soul or nitya-baddha consciousness which is the inferior or the secondary characteristic of the marginal living entity. The superior portion of the marginal living entity is ones genuine identity, personality and body which is called nitya siddha. This body is eternally protected in eternal time and is always present in Vaikuntha even when the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is trapped within 8,400.000 containments within the mahat-tattva in ethereal aand biological dressing. The presents of life in the mahat-tattva means the presents of the jiva, be it a demigod, a human, a ghost, an elephant, a cold virus or a cancer cell etc If one is too attached to material existence they can go through all life forms until they get frustrated with ‘existing’ and then seek out the shelter of the Impersonal Brahman or tatastha where ones consciousness is within a ‘non-dream’ state. This is also temporary and one falls out of ‘tatastha only to start their existence from a single cell creature and after billions of years and births again reach the human platform. The decaying fossilizes bodies the embodied jiva vacates is the foundation of atmosphere and the oceans on this planet as will be explained in Chapter 14 In this way ALL matter comes from life. 68/10/14 Seatle, Bhagavad-gita 2.20-25 - Srila Prabhupada - "Vedic literature gives us information that in the fire there is germ also. Just like in water there is germ; in the earth there is germ; in the air there is germ, living entities. Similarly in the fire there is also. And here it is said it cannot be burned. Even it is in the fire, there is no possibility of being burned. So why not in the fire? It requires a different type of body only". Within the celestial heavenly realm in the he mahat-tattva, ones thoughts and dreams are as real as ones actions however, on our middle earthly planet, it is not like that due to the gross biological containment, which is a further layer of energy, generated by the jiva-bhutah consciousness within the maha-tattva, that covers the ethereal (subtle body) vessel and suppresses ones ability to manifest thoughts or dreams as actions. The subtle body is the original encasement of the jiva-bhutah 'dreaming' consciousness when they first enter the maha-tattva or material universe. The ethereal body only subsists within the heavenly and lower hellish planetary systems (Explained in more detail on page 236) within the maha-tattva. Both bodies are shekels covering the jiva-bhutah consciousness, which is originally transmitted from ones innovative position and individual body after rejecting Krishna Lila (on the perpetual Spiritual planets) We are always in the position of ‘marginal’ and very few understand that ones marginal identity has a two-fold feature – nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. In this way of thinking, the material universe is the invented figment of the non-Krishna Conscious self that is transmitted as thoughts of selfish dreams to the maha-tattva (inferior energies or the place where lifeless matter exists) when one's consciousness is no longer Krishna Conscious, or aware of their own Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body. Srila Prabhupada – “Spiritual life and material life is that when you want to enjoy, when we want to be lord of these material resources, that is material life. And when you want to become servant of God, that is spiritual life. They..., there is not much difference between the activities of material life and spiritual life. Only the consciousness has to be changed. When my consciousness is to lord it over the material nature, that is material life, and when my consciousness is to serve Krsna, the Supreme Lord, here, Krsna consciousness, that is spiritual life. So as there are rules and regulations for accelerating your material possession, material life, similarly, there are rules and regulation for spiritual life also”. Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.354-356 New York, December 28, 1966

hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare

Prabhupada: "Physical nature is a by-product. Just like I explained that you create your body. The physical nature is subservient to the soul. Therefore, according to my desire, I get a body. I create a body." Shyamasundara: "His idea is that these monads, they create bodies." Prabhupada: "Yes. That I say. So 'ya ya vapi smaran bhava tyajaty ante kalevaram'. At the time of death, as you are thinking, your next body is created. Therefore you create the body." Shyamasundara: "But does the monad of a, say, a hydrogen molecule, does that also create its own body? Does it only accidentally become part of a water molecule, or does it..." Prabhupada: "Nothing is accidental." Shyamasundara: "It also desires to become a water molecule? Does the atom of hydrogen desire to combine with oxygen and become a water molecule?" Prabhupada: "He... The ultimate desire is of Krsna." Shyamasundara: "But does each atom, even of matter..." Prabhupada: "If you take it that way, Krsna is within every atom. So Krsna wants to be it; therefore He is willing to let these two things become one, and there is some creation, and again another creation, and another creation. The ultimate brain is Krsna." Shyamasundara: "Does the hydrogen molecule have an independent desire?" Prabhupada: "No, but within the hydrogen atom, there is Krsna; therefore it is combining. Not this hydrogen atom as matter is combining, but because Krsna is within that hydrogen atom existing. He knows that by combination this thing will come about, that will come out, that will come out... Shyamasundara: "But the individual soul has a little independence to choose?" Prabhupada: "No, no." Shyamasundara: "Has no independence?" Prabhupada: "No. The individual soul does not. In Bhagavad Gita it says that 'anumanta', individual soul, wants to do something and Krsna gives orders. Man proposes and God disposes. Shyamasundara: "So we have no free will?" Prabhupada: "No. Without sanction of Krsna we cannot do anything. Therefore He is the ultimate cause." Shyamasundara: "But I thought you had been saying that we have a little independence." Prabhupada: "That independence that Krsna wants me to do something but I want to deny it. But unless Krsna sanctions, you cannot do that also." Shyamasundara: "What I’m trying to get at is that if we desire something and we take a body because of that desire, can a hydrogen molecule desire to become part of water and be given that body? Does it have the independence to desire something and take a body accordingly? The hydrogen molecule, does it have a life?" Prabhupada: "So far as we get information, our knowledge is from the Vedic information, 'antantara-stha paramasu': Krsna is within, the Paramatma. It does not say the soul is within, the Paramatma." Shyamasundara: "It doesn’t say that an individual soul is present within the atom?" Prabhupada: "No. Krsna is present." Shyamasundara: "So then this philosophy of Leibnitz is not correct." Prabhupada: "No." Shyamasundara: "Because he says in matter there is also this kind of individuality." Prabhupada: "That individual is Krsna. Krsna knows that so many atoms will be combined, then another thing will be formed. It is not the individual soul but Krsna directly." Shyamasundara: "But when you come to the living entities, then the individual soul is also there." Prabhupada: "Yes. Within the body. Both of them—Krsna is also there, and the individual soul is also there." Shyamasundara: "He says that the definition of substance is a being capable of action. Substance means to be capable of action, and that existence means action." Prabhupada: "Substance is original. Other things are categories." Shyamasundara: "So being capable of action, is that a good definition of substance?" Prabhupada: "Yes. Substance means the original cause, so He is completely able to act." Shyamasundara: "He says to be is to be active." Prabhupada: "Yes, to be means to be active. Without activity, what does it mean to be?" Shyamasundara: "He says that these monads change in their appearances because the inner desire impels it to pass from one phenomenal representation to another." Prabhupada: "The monad does not change, but his mind has changed. But I do not know what this means, monads. He is complicating. He cannot express what is this monad." Shyamasundara: "Monad is very vague. It means a small unit of oneness or unity, which is the substance behind everything else, even the atom." Prabhupada: "That is Krsna. Krsna is fully independent." Shyamasundara: "He says, for instance, that a monad changes its appearance according to its desires." Prabhupada: "That indication is for the soul. But Krsna is not that. Krsna is 'kuta'; means he does not change." Shyamasundara: "He says just like this thing, (holding up an object) it will change to another thing, to another thing, to another thing, depending on its desire, which impels it to change. He says that even behind some object there is some ability to change." Prabhupada: "That I have already said. Just like Krsna, first of all He created the whole total cosmic energy, and then, by His plan, by His devices, He divides into so many things, changes, parts and parts and parts. It can be taken in that way. The material changes are going on according to the will of God, or Krsna. Is that clear?" (Philosophy Discussions with Professor Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibnitz)

The biological human body is a garment provided by Maha-Vishnu that is made up of billions of other embodied jiva-bhutah's each at different stages of evolving from a single cell through to complex organs on their path of evolving back to the biological human form. Human biological existence on the middle planetary systems is not possible without the complex existence of lower life forms. Biological life can only be sustained within the mahat-tattva underunder Krishna’s arrangement by having to 'feed' off other biological bodies or vessels that house the soul. in this way every cell is the vessel of a trapped jiva soul or nity-baddha consciousness. the presents of life means the presents of the jiva, be it a cold virus or a cancer cell etc 68/10/14 Seatle, Bhagavad-gita 2.20-25 - Vedic literature gives us information that in the fire there is germ also. Just like in water there is germ; in the earth there is germ; in the air there is germ, living entities. Similarly in the fire there is also. And here it is said it cannot be burned. Even it is in the fire, there is no possibility of being burned. So why not in the fire? It requires a different type of body only. That's all. Just like the fish. It has got a different type of body. It is living very comfortably in the water. You have got a different type of body. You are living in the land very comfortably. You cannot live in the water. The fish cannot live in the land. Similarly, in the fiery planet, just like sun, there must be living entities. There must be. You cannot say by any reason that there is no living entities. How you can say? If it is a fact that living entity cannot be burned. Is it not? Just try to understand. Yes. Bhagavad-gita 2.20-25 -- Seattle, October 14, 1968 Bhagavad Gita 2:29 äçcarya-vat paçyati kaçcid enam äçcarya-vad vadati tathaiva cänyaù äçcarya-vac cainam anyaù çåëoti çrutväpy enaà veda na caiva kaçcit TRANSLATION Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all. purport Since Gétopaniñad is largely based on the principles of the Upaniñads, it is not surprising to also find this passage in the Kaöha Upaniñad (1.2.7): çravaëayäpi bahubhir yo na labhyaù çåëvanto 'pi bahavo yaà na vidyuù äçcaryo vaktä kuçalo 'sya labdhä äçcaryo 'sya jïätä kuçalänuçiñöaù The fact that the atomic soul is within the body of a gigantic animal, in the body of a gigantic banyan tree, and also in the microbic germs, millions and billions of which occupy only an inch of space, is certainly very amazing. Men with a poor fund of knowledge and men who are not austere cannot understand the wonders of the individual atomic spark of spirit, even though it is explained by the greatest authority of knowledge, who imparted lessons even to Brahmä, the first living being in the universe. Owing to a gross material conception of things, most men in this age cannot imagine how such a small particle can become both so great and so small. So men look at the soul proper as wonderful either by constitution or by description. Illusioned by the material energy, people are so engrossed in subject matters for sense gratification that they have very little time to understand the question of self-understanding, even though it is a fact that without this self-understanding all activities result in ultimate defeat in the struggle for existence. Perhaps they have no idea that one must think of the soul, and thus make a solution to the material miseries. Some people who are inclined to hear about the soul may be attending lectures, in good association, but sometimes, owing to ignorance, they are misguided by acceptance of the Supersoul and the atomic soul as one without distinction of magnitude. It is very difficult to find a man who perfectly understands the position of the Supersoul, the atomic soul, their respective functions and relationships and all other major and minor details. And it is still more difficult to find a man who has actually derived full benefit from knowledge of the soul, and who is able to describe the position of the soul in different aspects. But if, somehow or other, one is able to understand the subject matter of the soul, then one's life is successful. The easiest process for understanding the subject matter of self, however, is to accept the statements of the Bhagavad-gétä spoken by the greatest authority, Lord Kåñëa, without being deviated by other theories. But it also requires a great deal of penance and sacrifice, either in this life or in the previous ones, before one is able to accept Kåñëa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kåñëa can, however, be known as such by the causeless mercy of the pure devotee and by no other way. http://www.vedabase.com/ used with permission We know that the physical body consists of many organs which are made up of tissues which are made up of cells. Some ask if we should consider each cell as a living entity - if this premise is correct (as it intuitively seems so!), then each cell must house a soul. In that case with millions of cells in the body not to mention the other living organisms such as bacteria and viruses etc., the bodies of which also must each posses at least one soul, which soul are we talking of when one refers to one's 'soul'? Let us examine a discussion with Srila A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad and Professor Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibnitz, the great mathematician who invented the calculus. He was also a philosopher. The following discussion is which later came about between His Divine Grace and his disciple Shyamasundar dasa: Shyamasundara: "So even between the atoms of matter there is a spiritual life, spiritual force?" Prabhupada: "Yes. That force means spiritual force." Shyamasundara: "He says that all bodies are ultimate quantums of force, that the essential nature of all bodies is force." Prabhupada: "Yes. Force is the spirit soul. Without the spirit soul, the body has no force. It is a dead body." Shyamasundara: "But just as there is a dead body of a man lying there, still there is force going on in that body. There are worms coming out..." Prabhupada: "But that individual soul, force, is not perfect. As Krsna is within the atom, the body is combination of so many atoms, so therefore the force for creating another living entity is there." Shyamasundara: "So just the decomposing is a force, turning to gasses. So there is force in every body." Prabhupada: "Yes. That individual soul’s force is stopped. That we call dead body. But Krsna’s force is still there, because it is combination of atoms." Shyamasundara: "He says that which is manifested to our senses, which occupy space and exists in time, is only an effect of the basic nature, which is transcendental to the physical nature. The physical nature is just an effect of a higher nature."

Chapter 11. The Universal Form<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> TEXT 7 <o:p></o:p> ihaika-stham jagat krtsnam pasyadya sa-caracaram mama dehe gudakesa yac canyad drastum icchasi<o:p></o:p> SYNONYMS <o:p></o:p> <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 16.5pt; HEIGHT: 3.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href=" " src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\3c\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\02\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>iha--in this; eka-stham--in one; jagat--the universe; krtsnam--completely; pasya--see; adya--immediately; sa--with; cara--moving; acaram--not moving; mama--My; dehe--in this body; gudakesa--O Arjuna; yat--that; ca--also; anyat--other; drastum--to see; icchasi--you like. <o:p></o:p> TRANSLATION <o:p></o:p> <v:shape id=_x0000_i1026 style="WIDTH: 16.5pt; HEIGHT: 3.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href=" " src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\3c\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\02\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>Whatever you wish to see can be seen all at once in this body. This universal form can show you all that you now desire, as well as whatever you may desire in the future. Everything is here completely. <o:p></o:p> PURPORT <o:p></o:p> <v:shape id=_x0000_i1027 style="WIDTH: 16.5pt; HEIGHT: 3.75pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href=" " src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\3c\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\02\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>No one can see the entire universe sitting in one place. Even the most advanced scientist cannot see what is going on in other parts of the universe. Krsna gives him the power to see anything he wants to see, past, present and future. Thus by the mercy of Krsna, Arjuna is able to see everything.<o:p></o:p>

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Even before the publication of Leaves, the authors' opinions were already circulating and had gained some support. The GBC was less alarmed by the immediate confusion caused by the controversy than the long-range consequences of the conclusions in this book. Particularly disturbing was the contention that Prabhupada's statements about the fall of the soul were merely a preaching strategy adapted to suit a particular time and circumstance, and did not represent his actual conviction. The authors maintained that Prabhupada was in agreement with all previous teachers in the line, but had made adjustments as a convenient means of expressing a complex philosophical concept for a Judeo-Christian audience unfamiliar with Sanskrit terms or the Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy. Many wondered what possible cataclysmic events could have occurred since Prabhupada's time to so alter the circumstances as to require the authors to change Prabhupada's preaching strategy (if indeed that is all it was). Their reason for concern was obvious: once one aspect of Prabhupada's teaching is labelled a mere preaching ploy, there is nothing to ensure that whatever else he taught was not equally a deception. Leaves threatened to undermine the very philosophical foundation of ISKCON. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>The GBC at their annual meeting in 1995 took steps to check such an occurrence. They resolved first, that the view expressed in Prabhupada's commentary to the Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, namely, that the original position of the soul is to be in a personal relationship with Krishna, which having been rejected leads to fall-down into the material world, is ISKCON's official view and none other should be presented under any circumstance. (Prabhupada1987: 4.28.54) Second, regarding philosophical controversies, Prabhupada's instructions and personal example are to be the first and primary source for ISKCON devotees. Vedic literatures, the writings of the past acharyas, and even the current teachings of any bonafide non-ISKCON acarya must be viewed through Prabhupada's teachings. Finally, the GBC rejected the speculation that Prabhupada practiced deception. The book In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall was banned.34 <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Neither of the authors was philosophically satisfied by this legislation, though they were willing to have the book withdrawn. But the purpose of the resolution was simply to stave off further confusion. The GBC had already concluded that a thorough response to the Leaves book was required. By the time of the next annual meeting, they published a comprehensive refutation, Our Original Position. This book labors extensively to define key Sanskrit terms used by Prabhupada and the previous acharyas with reference to the soul. The authors establish the logic and consistency of Prabhupada's presentation, then demonstrate how it is supported by previous acharyas. In his preface to the volume, Hridayananda dasa Goswami explains the view which he and the other authors maintained while compiling the work: "The members of ISKCON, who live perpetually at the feet of Srila Prabhupada, may speculate how Srila Prabhupada's statements are true, but they may not challenge his statements, or claim that they are false. This is precisely what it means to accept Srila Prabhupada as the founder-acharya." (Goswami, H. d. 1996: viii) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The publication of the GBC Press book seems to have had the desired effect. ISKCON devotees are now nearly of one mind on this issue, though a few (including the two contesting authors) have not been swayed. Both authors' participation within ISKCON was restricted, and they were asked to vacate their rent-free ISKCON residences. The resolution of this issue was reached over a period of more than four years during which time great effort was made to consider how to preserve both persons' participation in the Society's activities. The Chairman of the GBC explained at the time that either was again welcome to become active, but they would have to first demonstrate that they have changed their philosophical views. While ISKCON does not insist that all its members must hold to a particular persuasion, it does insist on certain policies for those engaged in teaching.

Most ISKCON readers wondered, in the light of such clear explanations from their founder, how this subject managed to remain a burning issue within ISKCON. But the seeming paradoxical nature of Prabhupada's answers resists systematisation and argue for alternative readings. The influence of Gaudiya Matha and other non-ISKCON authorities, whose presentation of the subject sometimes differed from Prabhupada's, further added to the confusion. New translations of important Vaishnava texts also began to appear. Where these translations seemed at variance with Prabhupada's translations or his teachings, controversy arose. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> One divergent view holds that the bound soul originally came from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent region of light surrounding <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>. (See letter to Jananivasa, Prabhupada1987: Vol. I: 200) <o:p></o:p></b> <o:p></o:p> <b><font face=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>'s abode. Such souls have never enjoyed a personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. In the same 'Crow and Tala-fruit' essay, Prabhupada rejects this idea, stating that the soul may have more recently come from the brahmajyoti but originally was with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Prabhupada counsels that it is a waste of time to argue whether our origin is in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>'s abode or the region of light surrounding it: <o:p></o:p> <o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5></o:p> <FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">On the top of the tree there is nice Tala-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some panditas (big, big learned scholars) saw this and discussed: 'The fruit fell down due to the crow's agitating the limb.' 'No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away.' 'No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch,' and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So, whether you were in the brahma-sayujya or with Krishna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin. (See Goswami, H. d. 1996: 189-90) <FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><o:p><FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">But pundits (and ISKCON pundits are no exception) seem never to tire of debate. When the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust decided to publish Jiva Goswami's Sat Sandarbhas, there was constant contention over the subtle nuances in translating Sanskrit terms. When two of the appointed members of the translation team insisted that Jiva Goswami was absolutely clear-bound souls have not fallen, but have always been eternally bound-a serious controversy arose. The remaining translators maintained that the Goswami's viewpoint was consistent with Prabhupada's-souls have fallen to this world from the spiritual realm. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">Drutakarma dasa, an ISKCON scholar, subsequently completed an impressive compilation of quotations entitled 'Once We Were with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>' to establish that the conclusions of all the great teachers descended from Chaitanya concur with Prabhupada's position on the fall of the soul. In response, the two dissenting members of the translation team published a book, In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall, so titled to emphasise their view that in Vaikuntha, the spiritual realm, if even leaves do not fall, certainly souls do not either. Observing the escalating controversy, the BBT trustees decided to put the Sandarbha project on hold. <o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5> </o:p></o:p>

As early as 1967, Prabhupada wrote: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> About your question: the spirit soul is certainly eternal and changeless; and the fall is superficial, just like the relation between father and son cannot be broken ever. Now we are simply in a phase of forgetfulness, and this forgetfulness is called maya. There is a nice example of the waning of the moon. To us the moon appears to be changing, but in fact, the moon is always the same. So as eternal servitors of Krishna - our constitutional position - we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>. (See letter to Jananivasa, Prabhupada1987: Vol. I: 200) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <font face=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. (See letter to Jananivasa, Prabhupada1987: Vol. I: 200) <o:p></o:p> <o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5> </o:p> <FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">In another letter, Prabhupada tried to sort out a devotee's paradoxical questions: <o:p></o:p> <o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5></o:p> <FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">Your next question, 'Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul? We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?' You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy a materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. The living entity is always pure. (See, Goswami, H. d. 1996: 200) <o:p></o:p> <o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5></o:p> <FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">In 1972, in response to a letter from his Australian disciples, Prabhupada dictated a brief essay entitled 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic.' Prabhupada explains that the soul is never actually separated from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, but only dreams of such separation. <o:p></o:p> <o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5> </o:p> <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5>We never had any occasion when we were separated from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In a dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the king discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over the 'seen' disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position . . <FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5>We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by maya [illusion]. Formerly we were with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in his lila or sport. But this covering of maya may be very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. <FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has become a moment only. (See Goswami, H. d. 1996: 1879-8) <o:p></o:p> <o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5></o:p>

In Bhag. 2.5.19, Lord Brahma states:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> karya-karana-kartrtve dravya-jnana-kriyasrayah badhnanti nityada muktam mayinam purusam gunah<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "These three modes of material nature, being further manifested as matter, knowledge, and activities, put the eternally transcendental living entity under conditions of cause and effect and make him responsible for such activities."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The key synonyms are: badhnanti--conditions, nityada--eternally, muktam--transcendental, and purusam--the living entity.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In this text of the Bhagavatam, we find Lord Brahma clearly stating that the original state of the soul is nityada-mukta, or eternally liberated. But upon turning from Krsna, the soul is bound by the material energy. This refutes the theory that the jivas in the material world are eternally conditioned in the sense of never having had a relationship with Krsna. In his purport, <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Because they are between the internal and external potencies, the eternally transcendental living entities are called the marginal potency of the Lord. Factually, the living entities are not meant to be so conditioned by material energy, but due to their being affected by the false sense of lording it over the material energy, they come under the influence of such potency and thus become conditioned by the three modes of material nature. This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So here we have the true meaning of the term nitya-baddha (eternally conditioned), explained by Srila Prabhupada and confirmed in the Bhagavatam itself. Lord Brahma clearly says that the living entity in the material world is a nitya-mukta soul (nityada muktam purusam) that has come under the influence of the material modes of nature. All souls are originally nitya siddha, but some come to the material world and appear as if eternally ignorant. Significantly, Srila Prabhupada says that the "external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Second Canto: Sukadeva Goswami<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In Bhag. 2.5.19 (above), we learned that the soul is originally nityada-mukta (eternally liberated). In text 2.10.6, Sukadeva Goswami gives the classic definition of mukti:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> muktir hitvanyatha rupam sva-rupena vyavasthitih<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The synonyms are: muktih--liberation, hitva--giving up, anyatha-- otherwise, rupam--form, sva- rupena--in constitutional form, vyavasthitih--permanent situation.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada's translation is: "Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living being after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle material bodies."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In his purport to 2.10.6 -, <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "...Some of the conditioned souls, who follow the transcendental sound in the form of the Vedic literatures and are thus able to go back to Godhead, attain spiritual and original bodies after quitting the conditional gross and subtle bodies. The material conditional bodies develop out of the living entities' forgetfulness of their relationship with Godhead, and during the course of the cosmic manifestation, the conditioned souls are given a chance to revive their original status of life with the help of revealed scriptures, so mercifully compiled by the Lord in His different incarnations."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So if we accept that the conditioned souls in this material world were originally nityada-mukta, as stated in text 2.5.19, and also accept the definition of mukti given in text 2.10.6, it is clear the that jiva originally had a spiritual body and relationship with Krsna. This conclusion is definitely in line with the above purport by Srila Prabhupada, who speaks of "spiritual and original bodies," the jivas' "forgetfulness of their relationship with Godhead," and the conditioned souls "being given a chance to revive their original status of life." Thus, my view (once we were with Krsna), the Bhagavatam verses 2.5.19 and 2.10.6, taken directly, and Srila Prabhupada's translations and purports, taken directly, are harmonious. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Third Canto: Lord Kapila<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In the Third Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, we find the following verse:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> yan-mayayoru-guna-karma-nibandhane 'smin samsarike pathi<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> caranti carams tad-abhisramena nasta-smrtih punar ayam<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> pravrnita lokam yuktya kaya mahad-anugraham antarena<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "The human soul further prays: The living entity is put under the influence of material nature and continues a hard struggle for existence on the path of repeated birth and death. This conditional life is due to his forgetfulness of his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, without the Lord's mercy, how can he again engage in the transcendental loving service to the Lord." (Bhag. 3.31.15). In 1972, in response to a letter from his Australian disciples, Srila Prabhupada dictated a brief essay entitled 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic.' Srila Prabhupada explains that the soul is never actually separated from Krishna, but only dreams of such separation. <o:p></o:p> “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In a dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the king discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over the 'seen' disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position . . . We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by maya [illusion]. Formerly we were with Krishna in his lila or sport. But this covering of maya may be very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has become a moment only”. <o:p></o:p>

[ <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Krishna is who everyone is looking for <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Beautiful Krishna

Krishna always protects His devotees

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> The Important action is to chant Hare Krishna and eventually what we all need to know will be revealed

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> By chanting the maha mantra all will be one day revealed

Srila Prabhupada “When there is a cosmic manifestation the jivatma, or the individual soul appears in the creation in different forms according to his previous fruitive activities (karma). Therefore it is due to his long forgetfulness of his real existence he identifies himself with a particular form awarded to him by the laws of material nature. While enwrapped in such ignorance, his natural opulence’s, although existing in minute quantity, become almost extinct.” Krsna Book. The Supreme Personality of Godhead in the chapter on the prayers of the personified Vedas.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture (text 2.9.1) given by Srila Prabhupada on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan, is one of the most important statements given by Srila Prabhupada on the origin of the jiva. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Karandhara: Translation: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working.”<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada So, purport?<o:p></o:p> Karandhara: “Purport. The question of Maharaja Pariksit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind.”<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada It is a very important question. Pariksit Maharaja inquired... Many people inquired that “How the living entity was with Krishna became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?” So this is the answer. Read the translation.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Karandhara: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead...”<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?<o:p></o:p> Devotees: Yes.<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada Actually the moon is not moving. It is a maya, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, “I am fallen. I am material.” That is the reason....Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-maya rte rajan. Except atma-maya, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>, he became fallen in this material world?” Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that “How the living entity who was with <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. This illusory energy develops when we forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. That’s all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is giving us.<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice.’” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967, Srila Prabhupada - "So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. Krishna Consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position"<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In a letter dated December 2, 1968, Srila Prabhupada replied to a question by Rayarama<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada –“The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s marginal energy.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Mayapur</st1:City>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region></st1:place>, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada once more addressed the perennial question of how a soul could fall from a spiritual planet.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Guru-krpa: . . . They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so why if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Krishna in such conditions? This is a very . . . <o:p></o:p> Acyutananda: The original sin.<o:p></o:p> Sudama: Why we are envious.<o:p></o:p> Guru-krpa: How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements . . . <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada Yes.<o:p></o:p> Guru-krpa: How is it that . . . <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate.<o:p></o:p> Sudama: It is very hard to understand.<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult.<o:p></o:p> Acyutananda: It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand.<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel.<o:p></o:p> Acyutananda: But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada But if he likes, he can return.<o:p></o:p> Acyutananda: He can return.<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown.<o:p></o:p> Acyutananda: In Krsna book it says that there were some color fighting in Dvaraka. They were throwing color. And some men became lusty seeing the women. So is . . . Will that be the first part of their falldown, to be in Vaikuntha and think of personal lust with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s associates?<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada Yes.

The term 'svarupa' is in brackets in the original thesis on this topic however, Srila Prabhupada said we are all originally 'nitya-siddha' and nitya-siddha also means our original svarupa. I apologise for the confusion however I firmly stick by those comments. This is confirmed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture (text 2.9.1) given by Srila Prabhupada on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st=" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Japan and many oyjer statements from Srila Prabhupada as follows.</st1:country-region> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Actually he has not fallen<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada:He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. . (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) . <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In a Caitanya-caritamrta lecture delivered in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">San Francisco</st1:place></st1:City> on February 18, 1967, Srila Prabhupada – “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. Don’t you sometimes dream that tiger is eating you? Is there any tiger? You are simply thinking. So if you keep in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, that nonsense thinking will go away. Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Krishna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, Srila Prabhupada – “...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 - <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada makes the same point he made in the above-quoted <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Tokyo</st1:City></st1:place> lecture. No one really falls from Vaikuntha. We are always in the spiritual world. We just think we are somewhere else.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Kulasekhara: Could you explain a little bit about the position in which we were situated in the spiritual sky before coming to the material world? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, that is material. And as soon as you become <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">London</st1:place></st1:City>. It is Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotees: Haribol! <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Because here everyone is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious. They haven’t forgotten <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Therefore they are in Vaikuntha. Others may see that “Oh, you are in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">London</st1:place></st1:City>. How you are in Vaikuntha?” Just like <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, in the Bhagavad-gita is said, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ‘rjuna tisthati. God is situated in everyone’s heart. So everyone’s heart means He is in the heart of the hog also. But if the hog is within the stool that does not mean Krsna is also within the stool. Similarly, the devotees although they are in <st1:City w:st="on">London</st1:City> or <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New York</st1:place></st1:State>, they’re in Vaikuntha. That is to be realized when one is in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. Yatra tisthanti mad bhakta tatra tisthami narada. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> says, “I live there where My devotees are there.” So <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> can be everywhere where there is devotee. So this material world, spiritual world means when you forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, that is material. When you are <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. That’s all. You may remain in the same place. Because everything is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s—isavasyam idam sarvam—so how you can distinguish what is material, what is spiritual? If every, every part of the creation belongs to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, you cannot practically distinguish “This portion is spiritual, this portion is material.” That distinction is due to our forgetfulness. So as soon as you come to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness you will find everything spiritual.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Guest (5):If one realizes the impersonal Brahman, what progress can be made here from this?(?)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada:So if you realize impersonal Brahman, there is chance of falling down again to the material conception. Because you are person, you cannot remain in impersonal stage. Therefore to elevate, to be elevated in the impersonal stage means there is chance of falling down again. But if you elevate yourself to the personal conception of the Absolute Truth, there is no falldown. Of course, because we are marginal potency of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, there is possibility of falldown always. But those who are strong in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, they do not fall. That’s all right.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada said on April 20, 1972, in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place> - “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” Srila Prabhupada says that we were originally with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) . <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "When you are free from the conception of gross and subtle bodies and when your senses are free from all influences of the modes of material nature, you will realize your pure form in My association. At that time you will be situated in pure consciousness." (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.33) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘So the nitya-siddha maha-bhagavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach Krishna Consciousness. This is maha-bhagavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but maha-bhagavata. How it is tested? Never forgets <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally everyone is nitya-siddha.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya' kabhu naya<o:p></o:p> zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata". <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada:"Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport<o:p></o:p>

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because their svarupa body never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘This is an important point to understand and it is significant to comprehend (it does matter)<u> <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></u> <o:p> </o:p> In the 14th century all Europeans believed the world was flat and to say otherwise was condemned by the Catholic Church. Just because you cannot understand what 'marginal' really means, it does not mean no-one else can. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p> The Krishna Consciousness movement is expanding in many ways, it is not stagnant to a devotee, in fact this century we see great devotees take birth who are so advance in their love for Srila Prabhupada and Lord Chaitanya that we will really see how un-advanced we really are. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p> We are all so concerned and attached to what ever activity we and others have done in this one insignificant life time. We have all had millions of lives trapped in ethereal and biological bodies within Maha-Vishnu's dreaming maha-tattva creation yet all we see is this one life time. How many of us really understand we are neither the biological body nor its underlining ethereal vessel?? Compared to the great souls lined up waiting to take birth on this planet, we are very primitive due to our attachment to the biological body we are trapped in and think we are! Even though the Gita tells us every day WE ARE NOT THESE MATERIAL BODIES!! As long as we think we are the gross disgusting biological human body and mind, then how can we ever understand the deep secrets of Spiritual life?<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p> Being marginal, which ALL of us eternal are, means we can choose to remain as who we really are eternally IN our fully Krishna Conscious svarupa body, or we can ‘sub-consciously’ drift off into a ‘dream’ that is out of synch (eternal time) from that perpetual body in Goloka and enter the perishable material creation, not as our eternal devotional Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body, but as a bodiless non-Krishna conscious projection known as the nitya-baddha consciousness that is provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu that enables the nitya-baddha consciousness to enter His dreaming mahat-tattva creation.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> This secondary consciousness creates its own counterfeit bodily forms or vessels of ethereal and biological structure facilitated and provided by the creator of the material creation or mahat-tattva Maha-Vishnu. Only through His provisions, can the nitya-baddha bodiless conscious projection of the marginal living entity, live out their non-Krishna conscious dreams ‘embodied’ within the mahat-tattva. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In this way the marginal living entity in their secondary lower nitya-baddha consciousness, chases their dreams of self importance throughout the three worlds of the unlimited universes within the maha-tattva. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Maha-Vishnu, an expansion of the Supreme Lord, gives facility to those who choose to forget <st1:place u2:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place>. Such forgetfulness can almost seem an eternity but when they revive their original nitya-siddha identity, the nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness will be as if it never happened!!<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p> In this way it is important to understand that All marginal living entities are created as persons first, as a perpetual nitya-siddha devotee with an eternal ‘svarupa’ body that always exists even if we cannot remember that vigraha (bodily form) rasa or personal bodily relationship with <st1:place u2:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place>. Forgetting ones Krishna Conscious original is due to being absorbed in our nitya-baddha conscious protrusion that is compared to one who chooses darkness rather than light.<o:p></o:p> <table align="center"> <tbody> <tr> <td></td></tr></tbody></table><!-- Fullview Container --> <table id="fullSizeContainer"> <tbody> <tr> <td id="fullSizeCell"> </td></tr></tbody></table><!-- Navigation --><!-- Start - prevNextContainer --> <table> <tbody> <tr> <td> </td></tr></tbody></table> <table> <tbody> <tr> <td> </td></tr></tbody></table><!-- End - prevNextContainer --><!-- Square Ad -->Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because their svarupa body never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”.<o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada clearly explains here how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body, are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva. This seconday (conditioned) extension of the nitya-siddha devotee is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> There is no mention of originally being in or coming from the Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya or the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Viraja</st1></st1:place><st1:place w:st="on"><st1> River</st1></st1:place>. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada also tells us that we have never been always conditioned. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada tells us that our original position is nothing less than being a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee eternally serving Krishna in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -“Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming statedue to our non-Krishna conscious choices”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada -"In this dreaming state, after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer". <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada tells us that the nitya-baddha conditioned state of mistaken self centered choices or non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious dreams are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada however further explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is refering to our perpetual svarupa body)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We are not fallen because we are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition (nitya-baddha lower self) that cannot stay in Goloka”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Technically, as already explained such nitya-baddha consciousness has never existed in Goloka and instead does originate from our individual tatastha consciousness that is a characteristic of our marginal identity. It therefore only due to the dimensional divisions of time that the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness co-exist within the identity of all marginal living entities. This duality exists because it is the basis of free will and without it there is no concept of love. The eternally conditioned nitya-baddha consciousness is part and parcel of the impersonal Brahmajyoti and the mahat-tattva while the nitya-siddha svarupa body is ‘similtaniously at the same time’, is eternally in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Because I wanted. I wanted to forget Krishna, so <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is giving consciousness: “All right, you can forget Me in this way.” Srila Prabhupada- 'That is His kindness. Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on. Srila Prabhupada - "And if you want to again revive your relationship, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>Ye yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is... "<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!”<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation”. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because their svarupa body never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘This is an important point to understand and it is significant to comprehend (it does matter)<o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p> <o:p> </o:p> In other words to defeat Impersonalism and ignorance it does matter however, it also does not matter for the humble devotee who just wants to Go back home back to Godhead. <o:p></o:p>

We did not originate from Impersonal Brahman or tatastha - it does matter <TABLE id=fullSizeContainer><TBODY><TR><TD id=fullSizeCell> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- Start - photoMetaData -->Srila Prabhupada – “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the Spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world. Even while he is in that position, the Lord remains with him as the Supersoul, his intimate friend. Because of his forgetfulness, the living entity does not know that the Supreme Lord is accompanying him as the Supersoul. In this way the living entity remains conditioned in each and every millennium. Although the Lord follows him as a friend, the living entity, because of forgetful material existence, does not recognize Him”.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning. In this way all the marginal living entities are always in their full expression of nitya-siddha-svarupa and that can never change. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> All of us are eternally in Goloka since our devotional svarupa body can never fall down as the Srimad Bhagavatam and Gita teaches us. We just have to wake up from this mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu’s and realize this fact<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> All marginal living entities are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always existed without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us. All marginal ‘souls’ therefore are never created nor do ‘jiva-souls’ appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasis believe.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The real secret to the marginal living entities is that each entity is endowed with an eternal Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body serving in perpetual time within Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha that is up to the individual marginal living entity to stay recognize or reject - there is always choice because without choice then we (the marginal living entities) can never exhibit true love or service.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In this way ALL marginal living entities have not only their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving beautiful Krishna in Goloka in a particula rasa but each marginal living entity also has a secondary 'self' that manifests as the nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness. This aspect of the marginal living entity manifests when one wants to be lord instead of serving the Lord.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world"<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space (past, present and future) that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming condition that forgets the perpetual nitya-siddha body one serves <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> as in 'perpetual' time or the eternal present in Goloka that has no past or future. THIS SIMPLE TRUTH IS THERE FOR ALL OF US TO ONE DAY UNDERSTAND