Vigraha

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu describes below our secondary 'dreaming' nitya-baddha consciousness, which has all the essence of the jivatma and is a factual attribute of ones marginal identity. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> This description of the 'dreaming aspect of our marginal identity', that has been controversial for so long, is not the some 'mental' state illusionary dreams that we all have in our material bodily sub-consciousness. No, it is not like that interpretation of the word dream. The nitya-baddha 'dreaming' conscious state is an authentic and real condition that ALL living entities can activate. Srila Prabhuapada calls those non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, - dreams. Srila Prabhupada - "Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”. Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b. We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka Srila Prabhupada also uses the analogy of the cloud covering the sun, its not that the sun is not there, but rather is that we cannot see the sun similarly, the nitya-baddha consciousness is like the cloud and the only when that cloud (nitya-baddha consciousness) dissipates, can we see the sun or our true perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily identity. <o:p></o:p> The problem with the dream analogy is many foolishly relate this’ dream' state with the biological body of nine gates, hence we are always reading the impersonal brahmajyoti origin believers, unintelligently call those who understand aw ALL come down from Goloka as dream-avadis or sleep-avadis. The word vardi actually means impersonalism and in point of fact describes their own ‘impersonal’ beliefs because they cannot understand we have ALL come down from Goloka.. <o:p></o:p> The marginal living entity therefore can choose to use their 'marginal' freewill and venture their non-Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha characteristic of their marginal identity to the mahat-tattva 'dreaming' creation of Maha-Vishnu. <o:p></o:p> Because the mahat-tattva is real, even though temporary due to its fading scenery, the nitya-baddha consciousness is a existent living part and parcel of the marginal potency that is a further secondary feature of the individual living entity with full independence that is a quality of the superior energy (the life force) and is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness within the mahat-tattva cloud. <o:p></o:p> The Vishnu-tattvas and the jiva-tattvas are the individual entities that make up the superior energy. Lord Krishna is the source and maintainer of all His Vishnu-tattva expansions as well as His jiva-tattva servant. The marginal living entities or jiva tattvas have their own independence and individuality and are called the marginal living entities or jiva tatastha's. <o:p></o:p> Each living entity has their ceaseless nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity and also has the ability, due to the freedom to choose, to stimulate their non-Krishna conscious desire, thoughts and imaginings. This ‘lower self or secondary consciousness’ is known as ones nitya-baddha responsiveness or the derived state that all jiva-soul possess and can activate if they no longer want to stay with Krishna in Goloka.. <o:p></o:p> In this way this attribute within the mahat-tattva or material creation and the impersonal Brahmajyoti, ones jiva-soul identity is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair IN OUR dimension of awareness within the maha-tattva, AND can also move on to a dreamless dormant state within the impersonal trait of the Brahmajyoti that can only also exist outside the personal active realm of Goloka and Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The Impersonal feature of Brahman or the Brahmajyoti cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness in an inactive dormant dreamless state.

When Theist leaves the restricted material universe of past, present, future, decay, birth, disease, old age and death, he will enter the Krishna Conscious majority portion of the Spiritual Sky. His experiences in the material creation will be of no real significance and is compared to the experiences he imagines or conjures up while resting at night in his present body. In fact his total adaptation into his perpetual service to Krishna will have the phenomenal effect that will make him feel that he has always been with Krishna in Goloka (the eternal ‘presents’) This is what serving Krishna in the eternal presents means, nothing else other that that rasa has any significants. It is for this reason ones ‘svarupa’ body has always been because Theist will only be interested in serving Krishna, everything else (his experience in the material world) will be as if it never was, hence the word Maya – that which is not. P.s. I hope Theist is not offended by using him as an example

Correct Yes the devotees see the material world as temporary but that is what illusion really means <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> So Theist is correct in saying the material is not real because genuine reality never fades away. The material world is only real in passing so for that reason it is illusion or Maya - MAYA MEANS THAT WHICH IS NOT (MEANING THE MATERIAL CREATION OR MAHAT-TATTVA IS ILLUSION) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - The living entity's constitutional position is to be a servitor; he has to serve either the illusory Maya or the Supreme Lord. If he serves the Supreme Lord he is in his normal condition, but if he prefers to serve the illusory, external energy, then certainly he will be in bondage. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - In illusion the living entity is serving in this material world. He is bound by his lust and desires, yet he thinks of himself as the master of the world. This is called illusion. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - When a person is liberated, his illusion is over, and he voluntarily surrenders unto the Supreme to act according to His desires. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - The last illusion, the last snare of Maya to trap the living entity, is the proposition that he is God. The living entity thinks that he is no longer a conditioned soul, but God. He is so unintelligent that he does not think that if he were God, then how could he be in doubt? That he does not consider. So that is the last snare of illusion. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - Actually to become free from the illusory energy is to understand Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and agree to act according to His order. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - Real knowledge is the understanding that every living being is eternally a servitor of the Lord, but instead of thinking oneself in that position, the living entity thinks that he is not a servant, that he is the master of this material world, for he wants to lord it over the material nature. That is his illusion. This illusion can be overcome by the mercy of the Lord or by the mercy of a pure devotee. When that illusion is over, one agrees to act in Krishna consciousness. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - A conditioned soul, illusioned by the external energy of matter, does not know that the Supreme Lord is the master who is full of knowledge and who is the proprietor of everything. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - One who does not know Him (Krishna) is under the spell of illusion; he does not become a devotee, but a servitor of Maya. Arjuna, however, after hearing Bhagavad-gita from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, became free from all illusion. - http://vedabase.net/bg/18/73/en1 B.G. 18.73 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - As living spiritual souls, we are all originally Krishna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness is now polluted by the material atmosphere, called Maya, or illusion. <o:p></o:p> And what is this illusion? <o:p></o:p> The illusion is that we are all trying to be lords of material nature, while actually we are under the grip of her stringent laws. When a servant artificially tries to imitate the all-powerful master, he is said to be in illusion. Translation to the Hare Krishna mantra 1966 <o:p></o:p> When the mayavadi's say the world is an illusion, to them nothing is real because they have no concept that Krishna is the Supreme Creator and enjoys His eternal pastimes in the eternal 'presents’ or Goloka, the permanent imperishable Krishna Conscious Spiritual Sky. The devotees on the other hand see that if it is not permanent, then it is illusion, only because it does not include Krishna. In this way, that which is illusion means it is temporary, decaying, fading, to the point that eventually it will appear as if it never was – that which is not - Maya.

Very nice quote <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:Begger <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Therefore the mentality of Vṛndāvana is the perfect status of mind for devotees. The inhabitants of Vṛndāvana have no concern with understanding Kṛṣṇa. Rather, they want to love Kṛṣṇa unconditionally. It is not that they think, "Kṛṣṇa is God, and therefore I love Him." In Vṛndāvana Kṛṣṇa does not play as God; He plays there as an ordinary cowherd boy, and although at times He proves that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the devotees there do not care to know it. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist This problem is only solved with the elimination of our notions of past present and future. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> A devotee is too absorbed in his devotional service in the eternal 'present' to Krishna to be concerned about anything else. Such loving service, thinking of the object of ones love and service, does not allow him the memory of past, present and future of the material world and its bye product of decay, forgettfulness, changing bodies, to exist. Why would he want to remember 'that which is not' (Maya)? However if one looks up into the Spiritual Sky, they may see a dark cloud, but that cloud (mahat-tattva) will only remind one possibly (we do not know our eternal realationship with Krishna) simply of Krishna's complextion (the color of a monsoon cloud)

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Guruvani Living entity refers to the sparks of the brahmajyoti, not to the liberated devotees of Vaikuntha. This needs to be understood or so many misunderstandings arise from the sayings of Srila Prabhupada. A devotee does not refer to another devotee as 'living entity". It would be rude and improper. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Guruvani's understanding is incomplete, here is the correct understanding “Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport <!-- / message -->

Interesting 'viewpoint' but when thiest is in Goloka, is he really going to care what material body he was in 2007? After all, he has had billions of them. Isn't the eternal 'present' beyond the concept of past, present and future in the material world? Which means thiests' Krishna Consciousness will have no interest in what he was in the past in the material world, nor the future in the material world because Thiests is too absorbed in his devotional service in his 'present' to Krishna. Such loving service, thinking of the object of ones love and service, does not allow him the memory of past, present and future of the material world and its bye product of decay, forgettfulness, changing bodies, to exist. Why would he want to remember 'that which is not' (Maya)? However if Thiests looks up into the Spiritual Sky, he will see a dark cloud but that cloud (mahat-tattva) will only remind him possibly (we do not know Thiests eternal realationship with Krishna) simply of Krishna's complextion (the color of a monsoon cloud)

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist So then you agree that a present nitya- baddha can become a nitya-siddha. I agree with this. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah 1- The residents of Goloka are as good as Krishna because of their Krishna consciousness but they are sill jiva-tattva although their are so many Vishnu tattva's playing different roles as well as the Caitanya Caritamrita reveals, it is explained there that so many expansions of Krishna Himself play out different roles, for example only Srivas (Naradha Muni) is jiva-tattva, the rest in the Pancha-Tattva are Vishnu-tattva and their are many many more also that are Vishnu tattva who play out different parts in Krishna Caitanya's own Lila<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 2 - Yes you are right that the marginal living entities are part of the superior energy in ‘bodily nitya-siddha form’ however, because they are jiva-tattva they serve as individual devotees and are not on the same level as Krishna who is the embodiment of the internal potency. Our disagreement on this issue is with the use of words only.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 3 -The nitya-baddha’s jivs are also part of the marginal energy (a characteristic of the superior energy (life force) yet become covered and slave to the inferior energy or material creation<o:p></o:p> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.154, purport: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Everything in the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ānanda. Everyone there is of the same potency — ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> This means in service atitude. Remember, there are not only unlimited marginal living entities (jiva-tattva's) in Goloka but there are also unlimited expansions of Krishna (Vishnu tattva's) that include Radha, many of the gopis, Balarama, Vishnu etc etc. You have to be careful here with the 'same potency' because the jiva-tattvas and the Vishnu tattva's are one only in service atitude in Goloka - THEY ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME, JIVA-TATTVA CAN NEVER BECOME VISHNU TATTVA <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist Sorry but if you think the other residents of Goloka are going to be looking at someone as a newcomer and an outsider then your question is infected with the concept of past. "This baddha-jiva was not here a minute ago and now he is here." You rightly object to the idea of souls falling asleep in Goloka and/or disappearing altogether (as have heard some people claim). but yet you are then stuck with the exact same problem in nature with the idea of a new soul arriving and raising the conception of class distinction. Your problem is on the back end and others have their problem at the front end. This problem is only solved with the elimination of our notions of past present and future. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist Well trying to respect Guruvani's desire to make this as free as possible of the 'fall from' arguments which have dominated this board for months I can certainly understand how that could be. That is one side of the argument and it is not possible to defeat it philosophically. On the other hand IMO there is no way one can establish it philosophically either. The reason being one could be a pencilpoint of brahmajyoti and still cast his consciousness into the dreamland of matter. Or one could even have been amalgomated in the Brahman with no individual sense of identity and desiring again personal life cast his consciousness back into the three modes. So dreaming is there no matter what the origin of the soul is. The point is it is ONLY by the medium of projecting the conciousness into the field of temporay forms (dreaming) that the soul has any contact with matter from any position. But the question of class distinction being in the spiritual sky seems so odd to me especially in a land where everyone is the servant of everyone else in the service of Krsna. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Interesting point<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Guruvani You just don't pop-up in Goloka without a prior sequence of developing the relationship with Krishna in the material realm of time. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by mahak well, there ya have it. the apprenticeship is gokula, then goloka. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist My view is that I am tatashta or that demarcation line between the land and the sea. By use of my free will I can be controlled by the internal energy or the external energy meaning I can place my consciousness in either field and shift back and forth like the shifting of the line where sea meets the shore. You may have a different view which is your right because you are also marginal. Just because you may have a different view doesn't mean you are incapable of abstract thinking or thinking outside the box as they say. Marginal ultimately means free will to choose to be wrong if one so desires. Free will marks the place where one individual living being has his boundary between himself and all other living beings. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah <o:p>“The fact is the individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.</o:p> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by mahak Individual identity is the basis of this philosophy, and a snare of monism is grabbing all who deny that I am me, not you, not anyone else. This nonsense has me going to gokula, then merging with someone else in goloka? mahak </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->You don't merge into anyone, you simply realize who you really are Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist Never thought of like that but that is the conclusion that that line of thought ends up with. It is monism. I can hear one of these monist's now, calling himself a vaisnava and preaching krsna-lila with the idea that you first merge into a character in krsna lila like Mother Yashoda and then you merge into the Brahman which is beyond lila. Krsna lila being just a fairytale to attract the poor slobs of kali-yuga who can't see beyond the illusion of variegatedness. Razor's edge baby. We ain't out of the woods yet...danger lurks behind every tree. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by mahak The answer is on the cover of first canto, where we see krsnaloka in full. The activities are going on. Off to the side is Lord Chaitanyas samkirtana party. This is where we are, engaged in facilitation of rasa lila by hearing, chanting, remembering. This is our perfection, this is our swarupa siddhi. In that samkirtana party, all the rasas, including madurya rasa, are present. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Dream simply means illusion and illusion means that which is temporary, try and humbly undertand that no one is dreaming in the mundane way you are presenting. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "we are dreaming life after life. As human being, as animal, as tree, as aquatics. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. This evolutionary process is going on".Bombay, December 27, 1972 <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <font face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - "You are right when you say our past life is a dream only. Just like at night we see so many dreams and in daytime we forget everything. Similarly we forget everything of our past life and as such so long we do not be reposed to our spiritual factual life, all these changes of lives one after another are considered to be dreams" Letter to Nandakisora, <st1:date month="<font" face="Times New Roman">[size=3><o:p></o:p> <font]<st1:place">Krishna</st1:date> can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38) <o:p></o:p></font][color=></st1:date> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada "Just as a dreamer dreams his being fast asleep and dreaming of things (friends, relations, business, etc.), which are really inside him, and when he wakes up from this dream to the original one, imagines himself awake though he is still dreaming, even so the perceiver should realise this waking (state) as a mere dream created by Maya, the jiva’s own deluding power. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Therefore one should break the illusion of this waking state by fixing one’s attention only on Me, its Witness. Know Me to be the transcendental Reality, the very Self (of the dreaming jiva), Brahman, the Consciousness which experiences and transcends the three states of waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

I thought this is ecouraging on this thread

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only Krishna's love can do that.The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies. History will record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition where the world is turning into a global Vikkage, was not only the strident clamor and sinful activity of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Narottama dasa Thakura prays to Lord Caitanya, "My dear Lord, please be merciful to me, because who can be more merciful than Your Lordship within these three worlds?" Actually, this is a fact. Not only Narottama dasa Thakura, but Rupa Gosvami also prayed to Lord Caitanya in this way. At the time of the first meeting of Lord Caitanya and Rupa Gosvami at Prayaga (Allahabad), Srila Rupa Gosvami said, "My dear Lord, You are the most munificent of all incarnations, because You are distributing love of Krsna, Krsna consciousness." When Krsna was personally present He simply asked us to surrender, but He did not distribute Himself so easily. He made conditions -- "First of all you surrender." But this incarnation, Lord Caitanya, although Krsna Himself, makes no such condition. He simply distributes: "Take love of Krsna." Therefore Lord Caitanya is approved as the most munificent incarnation. Narottama dasa Thakura says, "Please be merciful to me. You are so magnanimous, because You have seen the fallen souls of this age, and You are very much compassionate to them, but You should know also that I am the most fallen. No one is more greatly fallen than me." Patita-pavana-hetu tava avatara: "Your incarnation is just to reclaim the conditioned, fallen souls, but I assure You that You will not find a greater fallen soul than me. Therefore, my claim is first." By His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <TABLE id=fullSizeContainer><TBODY><TR><TD id=fullSizeCell>........ type=text/javascript> Event.observe($('fullSizedImage'), 'load', function(event) { pageTags.addTagListToImg('fullSizedImage', [ ]); }); .........> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> photo prints photobooks posters mugs stickers photo disks and more … <!-- End - formFullView --><TABLE id=fullSizeContainer><TBODY><TR><TD id=fullSizeCell>83%........ type=text/javascript> Event.observe($('fullSizedImage'), 'load', function(event) { pageTags.addTagListToImg('fullSizedImage', [ ]); }); .........> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

We can choose to reestablish our original Krishna Consciousness, or dream on within the material world for an almost eternity. Srila Prabhupada's teachings can free us from this 'hogs heaven' of the three material worlds

lie

Interesting post prabhu Like a fog lifts and reveals the sun, one's true eternal nitya-siddha identity is also revealed when the covering of the mahat-tattva is dispelled, only then does one become aware of their full Krishna Conscious spiritual potential as their real self (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) serving Krishna.

Is the world a better place for spreading the teachings of Lord Caitanya?

Ha! ha! ha! ha! Good one theist

Dream, think, imagine - same thing, also don't get sucked into their abuse with further abuse - Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by realist The word vardi means impersonal brahmajyoti. Maybe the real sleepervadi’s or fall-avadis are members of the present day version of the Gaudiya math. The word vardi is closer to their mundane impersonal Brahmajyoti origins. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Just let sleepng dogs lie

Exactly, And where do you eternally exist beyond time and space? Read carefully - It is at that 'time without mundane temporary existence', that has to be re-established by reviving our original Krishna Consciousness, or whom we really are in the eternal present, (our endless nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally our Krishna Conscious identity or real self). Presently it is the dark troublesome cloud of past, present and future carried by our material bodies that are part of the mahat-tattva (material creation) that has to be lifted or cleared from our consciousness like dust is cleared from a mirror that allows us to see who we really are. When this is achieved by dent of our Krishna Consciousness mundane time will no longer exists, just as darkness can no longer exist in the presents of light. When one reaches this realization, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense AT ALL in Goloka.

The topic is eternal time Are we hear to 'enjoy our material existence' on this website or are we suppose to be trying to 'again'' become Krishna Conscious by preaching to others how all of us can revive our genuin svarupa bodily identity that is eternally founded and established within the wonderful blissful ecstatic realm of eternal time or the eternal present (Vaikuntha reality)? This is not a theory, this is a fact that our Srila Prabhupada has explained to us, and to me personally in 1972. The topic is eternal time and that only exists in Goloka and Vaikuntha. If anything I have strickly kept to the topic of eternal time, explaining it is where we all perpetually exist serving Krishna in Goloka yet only presently 'imagine, think and dream' we are not there only to create our own ilusionary scale of tim from Brahma down to the ant.

I apologise, it wasn't intentional, I can understand your point because of so much controversy and debating, but my posts and quotes from Srila Prabhupada is what explains the real meaning of genuin perpetual time to me. Who cares about material time, it's only an illusion that has some reality but always fades away and eventually appears as if it never was. Just like NewYork will one day seem that it never was (a million years from now) THIS IS WHAT ILLUSIONARY TIME MEANS

"The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present" Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15 COMMENT - The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you and I are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time where Krishna’s unlimited pastimes are perpetually going on. Every event in Goloka and Vaikuntha (the Personal Krishna conscious active part of the Spiritual World or Brahmajyoti is ever present. This is NOT the case in mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that takes up 25% of the spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti. When ever we speak or describe 'time' in the material world, it is always under the influence of material space and an impermanent reality that is under the constant influence of decay and the dualities suffering and enjoying. Krishna says ‘time I am destroyer of the worlds’, Bhagavad gita as it is 11:32, that is, the material worlds. Also whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jiva tattvas were created’, such concepts are not true because the jiva-tattvas were never created, in fact ALL jiva tattvas have always existed as their full bodily ‘svarupa’ potential and real self in Goloka but sometimes, due to free will and choice, ‘think, believe, dream and assume ’ they are not that eternal ‘svarupa’ body.

What then is the difference between Vaikuntha time and mahat-tattva time? It's all connected. I am not trying to mislead anyone, to the contrary prabhu, I am only trying to point out that Vaikuntha time means that ALL the marginal living entities ALREADY have a 'svarupa bodily forms' that is always there and never leaves that eternal Krishna Conscious devotional selfless place. This is because of 'Vaikuntha time' (the peprtual present) In this way the marginal living entities who find their way back to Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. will discover their 'svarupa' body is already there and has always been there. This is what the perpetual present means

Presently we are so 'way down there' as one sanyasi once told me years ago, we presently have no idea what our nitya-siddha bodily identity is or even if we have one, in fact we are not even close as this thread reveals. Most of us cannot even understand we are not the material body we occupy<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is why many of us barely comprehend we are eternally nitya-siddha and find it a lot easier to foolishly believe we all originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, even many big, big sanyasi’s and guru's (even some in ISKCON) believe this nonsense that we have somehow fallen out of the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Most of us cannot even understand we are not these material bodies, what to speak of trying comprehend that we all are perpetually nitya-siddha, So many devotees even judge others by their material opulence, only seeing their bodily identity - lets face the facts, regardless of how clever we are at imitating Srila Prabhupada in the dress of a Sadu or even sanyasi, most of us are nowhere near spiritually advanced in this early pioneering stages of ISKCON.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The fact is we only 'think' 'imagine' or 'dream' we are THESE MATERIAL BODIES due to identifying with these bodies AS BEING WHO WE ARE. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The difference between us and Srila Rupa Goswami is he knows he is nitya-siddha (Krishna Conscious) and we don't know because of our selfish desires that cover our real identity as a cloud covers the sun or as darkness blocks out the sun. In other words Srila Rupa Goswami is perpetually Krishna Conscious while we have simply chose to 'dream' (WE ARE DOGS, HOGS, CAMELS ASES AND HUMANS) we are not Krishna Conscious, its as simple as that.

Srila Prabhupada explains - "One who wants to be free of material entanglement should take to the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and give up the contamination of ignorance, involving pious and impious activities. Thus one regains his original identity, just as a block of gold or silver sheds all dirt and becomes purified when treated with fire" Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.24.48 Srila Prabhupada's purport - "The purpose of human life is to purify oneself of this contamination so that one can regain his spiritual form and not undergo this cycle of birth and death. The recommended process of decontamination is devotional service to the Lord ..The word varṇam refers to the luster of one's original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], RRSNA." Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.24.48 bhajeta — may revive; varṇam — his original identity bhajeta — renders service; SB 1.3.38 bhajeta — must one worship; SB 2.1.39 bhajeta — one must worship; SB 2.2.6 bhajeta — must worship; SB 4.8.61 bhajeta — would embrace; SB 4.26.26 bhajeta — should worship; SB 5.19.8 bhajeta — should execute; SB 7.14.10 bhajeta — may revive; SB 8.24.48 bhajeta — worships; SB 11.11.29-32 bhajeta — he should worship; SB 11.20.27-28 bhajeta — a person worships; SB 11.25.11 varṇam — colors; BG 11.24 varṇam — classification of castes; SB 1.9.26 varṇam — his original identity; SB 8.24.48 varṇam — color; SB 10.3.20 varṇam — the color; SB 10.3.20

Unfortunately most people in the material world are morons. When ever we speak or describe 'time' in the material world, it is always under the influence of material space and an impermanent reality that is under the constant influence of decay and the dualities suffering and enjoying. Krishna says ‘time I am destroyer of the worlds’, Bhagavad gita as it is 11:32, that is, the material worlds. One thing is certain and that is you and I are not the 'biological bodies', 'minds' or 'subtle bodies we are presently occupy and are presently restricted by. It's not that you were originally nitya-siddha because the fact is right now you ARE nitya-siddha. READ THE QUOTE BELOW PRABHU

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Vigraha Also whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jiva tattvas were created’, such concepts are not true because the jiva-tattvas were never created, in fact ALL jiva tattvas have always existed as their full bodily ‘svarupa’ potential and real self in Goloka but sometimes, due to free will and choice, ‘think, believe. dream and assume ’ they are not that eternal ‘svarupa’ body. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Absolute undertanding from the Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedabta Swami Srila Prabhupada Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48 Srila Prabhupada - “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad Part Two Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968. Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural"discussion with Svarupa Damodara (his wedsite) "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be".BG 2.12 "That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul".BG 2.17 "For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill? As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones.The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.. This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.BG 20-24 : By Jahnava Nitai Das Published 06/12/2005Audarya Fellowship "When speaking of the spiritual realm, we must always remember that there is no limitation of time. Time practically does not exist in that realm. Only when you come down to the level of creation, at the mahat-tattva stage can we actually say that time is acting on anything. So any discussion of something constitutionally beyond the realm of mahat-tattva is by nature free from the influence of time. Therefore there is no room to bring in the idea of a point of creation. Everything beyond the mahat-tattva is beyond time and therefore eternally existent. "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings." Why is that so? Because never was there any time to influence the realm of spirit. With that in mind, when we speak of something spiritual (such as the Vedas, the jivas, the very spiritual realm itself, vaikuntha, etc.) we can never bring in the concept of a point of creation. I.e. "it was created at this point in time". Why we can't make such a statement is that it puts its constitution within the purview of the mahat-tattva. Therefore nothing spiritual was ever created in the general sense of the word. But still everything has a source, something on which it is dependent. Vishnu is the only sva-tantra (self- dependent principal) and all others are para-tantra (dependent on another). Everything has a cause, and that cause is directly the category of the Personality of Godhead. But this dependence is eternal dependence. Never was there a time when it did not exist. So, though Vishnu is the cause of everything, everything eternally existed beyond time. One may ask, "How to understand this?" If you don't already understand it there is no mental gymnastics that will make you understand it. The Srimad Bhagavatam clearly states: om namo bhagavate vasudevaaya janmaadyasya yatah tene brahma hrda ya aadi kavaye. Why the statement "tene brahma hrda ya aadi kavaye" is linked directly to the statement of janmadyasya yatah? Because everything is an emanation of Vasudeva, including the eternal spiritual sound vibrations (brahma) of the Vedas. Furthermore, we should remember that the Vedas are describing Him, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Never was there a time when the Vedas did not exist, never was there a time when vaikuntha did not exist, never was there a time when the jivas did not exist, never was there a time when the spiritual realm did not exist. Why? Because in the spiritual realm time never existed. Regardless of that fact, the Vedas, the jivas, vaikuntha, and everything in existence is an emanation from the Lord. The spiritual energy is His energetic expansion. Yet one cannot have Isvara (the controller) without Shakti (the controlled energy). So, once again there is no question of when the expansion took place, it is an eternal reality"