Beggar

The border between Germany and France is a line. There is a fence on the line and that is the border, bas. The border between the material and spiritual energies is called tatastha. Tata[astha], tata means literally the shore on a beach. The idea is two-fold, one is that the ocean is moving back and forth, so that the borderline is constantly changing. The second idea to be conveyed is that the border between the beach sand and the water is not something we can measure with exaction. Some of the sand is below the water. Some of the sand is touching the water and very wet. Some of the sand is not touching the water but is still wet. Some of the sand is a little further inland and slightly moist and eventually there is sand which is completely dry; But then again the waves or the tide comes in and everything changes. So the exact margin or border in the case of the tatastha - shore and the tatastha sakti cannot be measured in an exact way. So one important aspect of the tatastha conception is that it is a conception which is so subtle as to be immeasurable by our calculative, rational minds. Arguing that the tatastha is a place or is not a place is like arguing that at the exact margin or border between the sea and the land is either wet or dry. If one is involved in taking sides in this duality then we just don't get it. Just chant, do service and leave the thinking to thinkers and the philosophy to philosophers. Otherwise we will will be implicated in the Internet's 21st Century Hare Krsna Tower of Babel which is the antithesis of the preaching of those holy souls who have sacrificed their lives to spread Krsna Conciousness.

Interestingly both sides are correct. Tatastha is a place, a theoretical place, so from that viewpoint, yes, it really isn't a place. But then again if you don't consider it a place, at least theoretically, then you will miss many of the more subtle explanations of the acaryas. Its just words anyway, its really the thoughts that the acaryas are trying to convey with the use of words that is important. Also words are used for time, place and circumstance. Circumstance in the world of syntax would be called context. A word, yes even a sanskrit word, will often have a different meaning in relation to the context in which it is used. It is difficult enough to express siddhanta in Sanskrit or even Sanskritized Bengali, what to speak of English. But what can be done, today everyone is an expert, even Bhakta so and so, can get on the internet soapbox and spout - whatever? Everyone wants to interpret Srila Prabhupada according to their own mentality without accepting any guidance and think that their conception is "As It Is". It reminds me of the Tower of Babel in the Old Testament.

<table style="border-left-width: 0pt; border-top-width: 0pt; border-bottom-width: 0pt;" width="989" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border-right-style: none; border-right-width: medium; border-top-style: none; border-top-width: medium; border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-width: medium;" valign="top" width="54" height="100%"><!--mstheme--> </td> <td style="border-right-style: none; border-right-width: medium; border-top-style: none; border-top-width: medium; border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-width: medium;" valign="top" width="795" height="100%"><!--mstheme--> KRSNA IS A COWHERD BOY Letter to: Rupanuga -- Vrindaban 7 December, 1975 Our cows are happy, therefore they give plenty of milk. Vedic civilization gives protection to all the living creatures, especially the cows, because they render such valuable service to the human society in the shape of milk, without which no one can become healthy and strong. In your country the dog is protected, and the cow is killed. The dog is passing stool and urine in the street, he is considered the best friend of man, and the cow is all pure, stool, urine, and milk, but they are taken to the slaughter house and killed for food. What kind of civilization is this. Therefore we have to preach against all this nonsense. Letter to: Hayagriva -- Montreal 14 June, 1968 The community in which Krishna preferred to belong was Vaisya community, because Nanda Maharaja happened to be a Vaisya king, or landholder, and his main business was cow protection. It is understood that he had 900,000 cows and Krishna and Balarama used to take charge of them, along with His many cowherd boy friends, and every day, in the morning He used to go out with His friends and cows into the pasturing grounds. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.19 -- Hawaii, January 15, 1974 So in this movement, our one program is to respect the cows. We chant this mantra, namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya ca. The brahminical culture and the cows... Why they have selected the cows? There are so many animals. Why cow protection is so important in Krsna consciousness? Why Krsna personally Himself became a cowherd boy and was taking the care of the cows and the calves? Oh, that is very essential. Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C. Give protection to the cows. Krsna mentioned specifically, go-raksya. That is our request, because Krsna says go-raksya. And in His practical life He played as a cowherd boy giving protection to other cows. There is a picture, Krsna is sitting, and the cow and the calf is feeling very safety. Krsna is embracing. So because we want to be Krsna conscious, we want to follow His personal behavior and instruction. Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.1-2 -- London (Tittenhurst), September 13, 1969 Just see Krsna's picture, how He's loving the cow. You see? He is instructing by His practical life how He is compassionate with the cows. He played as a cowherd boy. Why? Because if in human society these two things are neglected, cows and the brahmana, that is animal society. Animal society. That is not human society. That is the idea. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.10.4 -- London, November 25, 1973 So it appears that how much strictly the cow protection was there so that the gavah, payasodhasvatir muda. They were... You'll see Krsna. He is always with cows, and how the cows look very happy with Krsna. And Krsna is personally teaching how to protect cows. He became a cowherd boy. He was king's son, Maharaja Nanda; but His business was to take the cows and the calves daily to the pasturing ground. And it was very sportive engagement with the cowherd boys. The cows were grazing, and the boys, they took their meals in a pot, tiffin carrier. Not tiffin carrier in those days. Some way or other. And they used to eat them, distribute amongst the friends. Sometimes a tiffin carrier was stolen by one boy, and he was searching, and then it was... So just like the boys do. This was the children's life, to take protection, to give protection to the cows, to the calves. The small children, up to six years, seven years old, they used to take care of the calves, and the elderly men, the used to take care of the... Or elderly boys, they used to take care of the grown-up cows. So the cows were fed very nicely. Vrajan. Therefore Vrndavana is called Vrajabhumi, "where there are many cows." It is called Gokula. Gokula. Go means cows, and kula means group. Gokula. Govardhana. Govardhana Hill. Because the cows were grazing on the hill, and profuse grass was being grown, and they are enjoying. So there should be arrangement. Just like here we see, there are so many open fields and the cows are grazing. But they cannot be happy because they know that they are simply raised for being killed. They cannot be happy. </td></tr></tbody></table>

Wait a minute! Didn't I say that?

Jiva's of the material world unite!!! You have nothing but your chains to loose!!!

Yeee Haaw!!! Rid'in a Nuclear Warhead down ta take out a couple of million Hare Kristians!!! The South of India will rise again!!!

Where I come from we don't tolerate Hare Krsitians at'all. Nope we either shoot 'em or feed 'em to the Lions!

Any way the word is lila and pastime is just a crude English word. When I think of the word pastime, I wonder if there the cowherd boys have a seventh inning stretch when watching Krsna kill the demons, see what I mean? You know, was watching Krsna kill the demons, Vrndavana's favorite pastime? Did the coming of the Autumn Season signify the Annual Fall Classic? If you just stick with the word, lila, then you don't these strange English word associations.

Sorry to hear that you are nearing, "the fag end of life". Of course you can continue to accelerate the process if you keep on mess'in with those damn motorcycles. "You know you're gonna drive me to drink'n, if you keep on drivi'n that hot rod Lincoln!"

Sex only for procreation is a standard to be followed by Vaisnava brahmanas. By 1976 Srila Prabhupada was seeing the failings of giving the Vaisnava brahminical standards to persons who had no real chance at following these things do to the samskaras and sukrti/dukrti they have brought into this life. That year the epidemic of sanyassi fall downs was upon Iskcon and that percipitated Srila Prabhupada's comment where he suggested real daiva varn[a] asrama dharma. At that time there was only one varna in Iskcon [as now] - brahmana. How to do this, is a problem to be solved either now or in the future. Those who are attracted by real Gaudiya sadhana bhakti are Vaisnava brahmanas but those who have only a little sukrti, come to the Sunday Feast as their only involvement on a social level and work in the world in various occupations need a system to protect them from severe sinful reactions and at the same time gradually uplift them to a higher sukrti level. At present no such system exists. Krsna says in BG, " if you can't do this, then do this, then if you can't do this then do that etc." In our present system its no sex outside of marriage and only for procreation. Too high of a standard for non-brahmanas means chaos for society. It's just not noticed so much because the number of Hare Krsna followers is still relatively tiny.

Maybe this should be another topic but since we are at it... What happens if you set the bar too high? IOW tell late teenage and young adult "devotee" kids, only sex in marriage is permitted and then only for procreation and what do you get? Remember most of this kids went (or go) to public high school and then maybe regular college. I've been around the large Hare Krsna communities in California and Florida and I've seen what you now get with this approach. Since the standard is so high then you get zero standard, nada, zilch. These kids follow usually 2/3 of 1 of the 4 rules, that is, no meat, fish and some eggs. When you meet their new boyfriends or girlfriends they have be sleeping together often from day one. The girls do not even dress modestly, and if they wear a sari to the Sunday Feast it is done in an extremely revealing manner, maybe to show their tatoos or body piercings. Many of these young adults have moderate to serious addictions to drugs and alchohol and some smoke cigarettes. At the Mormon's large university, Brigham Young University in Utah they have a behavior code. If they break the code they get a warning and if they break it again then they are usually expelled from the University. No intoxication, or open sex before marriage is allowed. Here it is from Wikipedia:

How to become detached from American Women: <button class="master-sprite wasinline QLIconImg" title="" onclick="clicked_add_icon(this, this.parentNode.getAttribute('ql'), 0, 'http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/-oMeGu1MMaI/default.jpg?e=thm_100', 'American Woman The Guess Who');return false;" ...........="mouseOverQuickAdd(this)" onmouseout="mouseOutQuickAdd(this)" onmousedown="urchinTracker('/Events/VideoWatch/QuickList+AddTo')"></button>Added 5:25 [url=" "]

BTW does Sonic carry a veggie burger yet?

Maybe Srila Prabhupada's books themselves, if deeply studied, challenge the "ISKCON myths." Look at Sarva's ideas, he almost exclusively quotes from letters and conversations, not the books.

Both ideas are correct, yet they are one and different. Just how so, is beyond our intellect to understand therefore these topics are acintya or inconceivable.

Not all jivas are impregnated into matter. Some are in the brahmajyoti in a latent stage and most are serving Bhagavan in the Vaikuntha planets. Why? Sometimes it is told by desire, sometimes misuse of minute free will and sometimes by chance. But one thing for sure is that the souls who are adverse to Krsna's service are the ones who are impregnated into prakrti. This condition is called patita in sanskrit and translated into fallen in English. One name of Krsna is Patita Pavana, friend of the fallen. He is not known as 'friend of the impregnated into apara-prakrti.' Words are chosen to convey ideas, not so that we get hung up on words. Why become the anti-Sarva? IOW the opposite reflection. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Srila Narayana M. said on a walk, that, "actually tatastha is imaginary, really there is only two energies, the superior and inferior and the jiva is superior". To me what he means by 'imaginary' is not a phantasmagoria but more like a word created to convey a concept from the viewpoint of time. From the angle of vision of eternity the jiva is eternal and therefore not 'generated'. The idea of 'generated' is to illustrate how everything and everyone comes from Krsna. IOW everthing and everyone are related to Krsna. Why not unite around this concept? Why squabble or become a fanatic over thoughts that were never intended to be used the way we use (misuse) them. This is why Prabhupada warned against becoming an "armchair philosopher."

'Fall' is only a word used to convey a thought. Such is true of all words. Sonic seeks to use words to shock, almost as a polar opposite to Sarva's use of words as a repetitive blitzkrieg. The truth is always in the middle, which is just as abstract as the notion of tatastha. We all yearn for absolute harmony not total discord.

Maybe the idea of 'place' gives the wrong impression. After all everything exists within consciousness. The 'place' or identified satki 'where' the generation occurs is the tatastha sakti. The living entities are also referred to as tatastha sakti. 'Generation occurs' is a rather crude attempt at using language to explain the concept, especially since the jivas are eternal. Its all words, analogies and descriptions. What is frustrating me is Sarva's fanatical stand that tatastha only refers to the individual jiva being marginal. Although he has been shown on numerous occasions, purports that directly contradict his notion, he refuses even to acknowledge that they exist.

Sarva gattah is claiming that the jiva are tatastha sakti and "Tatastha is NOT a place in the creation, it is simply another name for marginal living entity or jiva tattva." IOW he says that it is incorrect that any other definition of tatastha be used, especially if it is used to be a place or point of origin. But Srila Prabhupada is clearly using the word, tatastha, in the way to which Sarva objects in this purport which I already quoted, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.7.9: And then again in this lecture: HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada 741219SB.BOM Lectures: It has already been told that Srila Narayana Maharaja has explained the this place is in a sense only a concept, since the jivas actually have no origin, being eternal. Yet still, "Tatastha means in between", as well as marginal and every sanskrit word has many meanings.

If he only knew that Gaudiya Vaisnavas couldn't have Jello-O because of gelatin that comes from the collagen inside animals skin and bones he, would weep for their misfortune. The soft-hearted Vaisnavas will weep for the poor animals that are mercilessly slaughtered.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.7.9, purport: Just what part of this quote do you not understand?