Beggar

Only half your desire is fulfilled = FACE. We're you ever so Mad that you danced with Alfred E. Neuman in the faded sunlight of waning intelligence?

How about the Divine Grace of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Whom is none other that Sri Sri Radha Krsna in combined from? Could this Grace be manifesting through His first expansion, Sri Baladeva who appears in this yuga as Sri Nityandanda Prabhu?

His Divine Grace. So who is He?

Srila Prabhupada was a real messenger of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura who was a real messenger of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. This transcendental messenger system is called the guru parampara. We may assist these messengers but we will have to attempt to live up to their standards of purity according to their instructions. In this way myself and so many of us come up so short on this measuring stick. In this condition it is best to be not so cocksure of oneself and sometimes look at what others are seeing and experiencing. That's why its supposed to be a "discussion".

The problems of translating into a mundane language based on a material time conception are seen in this verse translation. How could one obtain what they already have, "my own eternal spiritual body" and "my own realized name?" Thus we go around and around in circles chasing our own tail, quibling about words.

The Spiritual Planets or Vaikunthas are in the Spiritual Sky. The Spiritual Sky is also known as the Brahmajyoti. In this sense the Spiritual Sky and it Vaikunthas are non-different. So in that sense both sides would agree that the jiva's in this world have come down from Vaikuntha. Yakity yak Don't talk back Take out the paper and the trash Or you don't get no spending cash (for your program) If you don't sweep that temple floor You ain't gonna go on sankirtan no more Yakity yak Don't talk back

Without the genuine mood of para-upakara the same ideas become just the opposite - oppressive. Then how would one get that mood? By following the order to chant Hare Krsna with extreme humility, trnadapi sunicena. The chanter would then have to follow, naham vipro, na ca nara patir, na vaishyo na sudro... I am not really any varna or asrama but rather the eternal servant of Krsna. Identification with the varnas are really for those who do not have the sukrti to understand the position of eternal service to Krsna. But the implementers of the system would have to be absorbed in this mood, like Srila Prabhupada, otherwise it will be perceived as oppression. To say that Prabhupada is the brahmana is almost like the rtvik conception that he is the only guru. This mood calls into question the failures of the Iskcon leaders while sweeping our own personal failures under the carpet. Without self introspection one cannot even be on the path leading to para-upakara.

There is devotional philosophy and devotional mood. In the moods or transcendental sentiments of the pure devotees we can see the application of devotional philosophy. Also visa versa, acaryas like Srila Jiva Goswami have taken these moods and the realizations that are received in them and put them in a philosophical form, for the benefit of human civilization. All of these kind of thoughts taken to their extreme dualities without harmonizing them with the apparently opposing view can be dangerous in and of themselves. Thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis. But "Krsna" which implies love of Krsna, Krsna prema (prema pumartho mahan) is the all-hamonizing factor. We may not have this but this can be our ideal. This aspiration in what we should be looking for in those we associate with in person or on the internet. What good is suspicion? Now if I could only follow this myself, for I'm sure that it takes some humility that I do not have at present.

Although from the angle of vision of the present moment of eternity all are perfect, from the angle of vision of our present bondage in material time and conditioning there are souls who are perfect who have come to save us. Therefore we think of souls like Srila Rupa Goswami as eternally perfect and only appearing temporarily as minister of a Muslim king as an instructional lila orchestrated by the Lord. We think of ourselves as fallen souls although we pray that someday the veil of the Maya Jala will be lifted and we can really experience the holy name and citamani dhama. It's all about application of thoughts to a prayerful existence which is an instrinsic part of bhakti, not endless quarrel and debate over theology with devotees. Oh when will that day me mine when I can see the good in everyone, starting with the devotees and offer proper respect to everyone (according to their position). When will the day come that I will stop pretending that know more than those who have genuine devotion? Will I then give up my pride and arrogance for they are such burdens to carry.

Dekhite Dekhite Srilla Bhaktivinoda Thakura dekhite dekhite, bhuliba va kabe, nija-sthula-paricaya nayane heriba, vraja-pura-sobha, nitya cid-ananda-maya (1) When I will forget my gross bodily identity, then I will behold the exquisite beauty of Vraja, full of eternal spiritual bliss and cognizance. vsabhanu-pure, janama laiba, yavata vivaha ha’be vraja-gopi…-bhava, haibe svabhava, ana bhava na rahibe (2) I shall take birth in Vrsabhanu Maharaja’s town and will marry in the nearby village of Yavat. My sole disposition and nature will be that of a cowherd maiden. nija-siddha-deha, nija-siddha-näma, nija-rupa sva-vasana radha-krpa-bale, labhiba va kabe, krsna-prema-prakarana (3) When will I obtain, by the power of Radha's mercy, my own eternal spiritual body,my own realized name and dress embellishing my real form? And when will I receive initiation into the techniques of expressing divine love for Krsna? yamuna-salila-aharane giya, bujhibo yugala-rasa prema-mugdha ha’ye, pagalini-paya, gaiba radhara yasa (4) As I go to draw water from the Yamuna, I will understand the confidential mellows of Yugala-Kisora’s loving affairs. Being captivated by prema, I will sing Radhika’s glories just like a madwoman.

Good points bija. Yet why does one faction represented by Sarva, Swarupa (all Gauragopal) insists on raising the spectre of Mayavada? One could chalk it up to paranoia although I don't believe that's the full explanation. Perhaps it has to do with something like this: For instance Srila Prabhupada usually gave the angle of vision that the Holy Name is non-different than Krsna but that we are covered due to our offenses to Krsna's Name (nama-aparadhas). From the angle of vision I have heard from say Srila Sridhar Maharaja, the problem is that we are chanting nama aparadha. In other words the same idea is being expressed differently. One can describe it either way with sastric citations. So by using one explanation or the other different nuances are implied. When we preach Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's doctrine, impersonalists will often retort, "the truth is beyond words". So if forces us into the opposite postion, that what our gurus have given in words is reality. But for our own understanding the reality of the situation will be far more subtle. The impersonalist is a monist and in relation to him we are giving a dualistic position, that the soul is the eternal servant of the Supreme Soul. But remember, the jiva is actually simultaneously one and different from the Lord. One (potentially) in quality and different in quantity. (are we now manifesting divine qualities? There is that word again - manifest, see my last post). So Mahaprabhus followers are not really dualists but rather followers of acintya bhedAbheda tattva. Both sides of the duality are correct but with the nuances of an inconcievable reality or the adhoksaja plane. So if we approach Srila Prabhupada's general angle of vision in his description of nama aparpadha with out considering the fact that the Sanskrit word nama aparadha clearly implies something quite opposite - that the chanter is vibrating nama aparadha and not the name proper - we might fanatically, and ignorantly assume that this is some impersonal propaganda designed to discourage the sadhakas in their japa practice! But that is not true, just as it is not true that the concept of a tatastha origin of the jiva is an impersonalist ploy. It is simply and idea to convey other ideas to lead one to surrender to Krsna and engage in sadhana bhakti. Not all aspects of the philosophy are exactly literal. In other words, the actual experience of being in Krsna lila is not the same as hearing Krsna Book read aloud over milk and bananas after spending the day distributing books. But Iskcon managers drummed such ideas into their charges heads day after day to try to keep the book scores up. The subtle nuances of Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta were seen as potential excuses that might neutralize a book distributor or a collector. Thus managerial expediancy depended on simplistic answers to everything and those who saw beyond this were repressed and ousted. This process reached it's apex during the Zonal Acarya era. Eventually many of the ousted and their sympathizers went to the Gaudiya Math derivatives for shelter but carried with them their resentments of Iskcon and then passed on these resentments to a new generation. Thus a backlash developed and now be see some posters being just as rigid in their "anti-fall from Goloka" outlook as are the "fall from Goloka (OOPs) " or "we are just dreaming that we fell" factions. We become a reflection of what we oppose just as we become what we passionately criticize. Better to remain dispassinate about these issues and enthusiastic to accept what is favorable for bhakti and reject what is unfavorable.

Yes, it is very difficult to understand how the jiva is manifested by the Lord since the jiva is eternal. Dictionary.com: man·i·fest - adj. <!--EOF_HEAD--> <!--BOF_DEF--> Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious. Or - To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal. So the jiva is shown or revealed because it's existence is eternal. That is why it is said that the jiva is in the tatastha position before he is manifest. But if the jiva is eternal and beyond time, then how is there a before? Actually there isn't really but because one says manifest then there must be said that there is an unmanifest postion (to be consistent and logical) and that is the tatastha. It is compared to where the sand meets the water on the seashore. So the tatastha is the place on the seashore that is not really sand and not really water. Go down to the beach and find such a place! It doesn't really exist at all, for it is just a construct of language to try to convey an idea which is a complete paradox or acintya, inconceivable. Beyond this the Eternal Present where we are in our relationship with Krsna and His internal energy and associates. But despite all this, it is still not proper to say that, "the jivas originate in Goloka Vrndavana" or that "the jivas are presently in Goloka and dreaming that they are in the material world". It's against siddhanta to say such things because it implies that our eternal worshipable masters, the parishad devotees can fall down to a positon like ours. And to even imply such a thing is an aparadha or offense - not bhakti. And this is not my speculation. This is what I heard directly from Srila Narayana Maharaja on a morning walk in Badger last June and I am just paraphrasing. This means that to argue over the origin of the jiva is far more absurd than we first thought. Far, far more absurd. Its one thing to say that if one's house is burning, just get out, and later you can find the cause. Its another thing to feel the blazing fire coming towards you. Look what recourse those poor people took at the World Trade Center. But we are so foolish that we are trying to enjoy this holocoust, kamala-dala-jala, jīvana ṭalamala bhajahū hari-pada nīti re. Govinda das prays, "This life is tottering like a drop of water on a lotus petal; therefore you should always serve and worship the divine feet of Lord Hari." The Crow and Tal Fruit logic given by Srila Prabhupada and what the previous acaryas have explained is enough. The different factions in this illusory quarrel on the internet are like the different blind persons who feel different parts of the elephant and then say the elephant is like this... They are all correct, but they are just not seeing the total picture. Download: 2008-01-01 - 08 - Mukunda Datta das - Bhaja Hure Mana.mp3

How 'bout Sampradaya Sam, varmits!!!! <!--n--><!--m-->

The brahminical class in Iskcon destroyed themselves by indulging in money grubbing en masse. You'll need a brahminical class to establish the other classes and be their head. Srila Prabhupada wrote and said many times that if Krsna Consciousness does not succeed socially that it can succeed individually, which leaves us with the internal part, only - unless, of course you can establish a real Vaisnava brahminical class. The Westerners and now Westernized Indians in Iskcon circles don't seem to be attracted by this for there's no money in it.

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

I thought this was the real Hare Krsna dance: dharmah svanusthitah pumsam visvaksena-kathasu yah notpadayed yadi ratim srama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8) Without hearing Krsna katha, everything one does is a waste of time. The Srimad Bhagavatam frankly informs us of this important message. Dharmah svanusthitah pumsam: you are doing dharma. That includes your following of daiva varnasrma dharma, chanting of harinama, serving the deities, so many limbs of vaidhi-bhakti, but if rati, deep attachment for hearing Hari katha (the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Sri Radha-Krsna), if this rati does not come, then srama eva hi kevalam. It is only srama-srama means hard labor, hard work for nothing. Why not invite people to this program as Srila Prabhupada did by his life's work? Why invite them to dance with the devil in the pale Alachua moonlight?

Come on Sarva it's not like you're really satisfied by crow and tal fruit logic, you are promoting the "We are Dreaming From Goloka Faction". Canvassing and canvassing for new converts! What does it matter if we meet Krsna for first time or meet Him again -- it will be as if we have known Him for eternity, the end is the same. The variegated theological-siddhantic constructs given by the acaryas on only appoximations of eternal reality that we read in our languages that are bound by material time. Even if we read the sanskrit we would not have the realization or experience by reading or even hearing. And besides why would we want to re-experiece our original fall or our original indescretion that led to our dreaming from lifetime to lifetime. The goal is to be reinstated in our original swaupa and should be the focus -Oh, oh, but thats not allowed lest we fall into sahiyaism. But maybe endless and continual wrangling about the nuances of siddhanta is another big trap! If we could only be trnadapi sunicena, then we could continuously chant the Holy Name!

Onetime one gentleman explained a similar conception to Srila Sridhar Mararaja, saying, "We are the finite and then there is the infinite. If the infinite is truly infinite then it cannot be known to the finite. Srila Sridhar Maharaja then replied, The Infinite is not Infinite if He cannot make Himself known to the finite."

If Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had not come to the West and preached in very successful way, then how would anyone except maybe a handful of persons know about Caitanya bhakti in places like America, Austrailia and Europe? Could we assume that we would be in that handful of persons? How unlikely! So everyone in the West or non-Vedic regions like Japan, Russia and Hong Kong etc. can trace their good fortune to Srila Prabhupada's sacrifice to follow his guru's order and come to the Western world with just a few dollars and a few books by sailing for weeks on an old Indian freighter and all at nearly 70 years of age! Materialistic devotees within Iskcon have pushed Srila Prabhupada as the only real successor to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and Iskcon as the only authentic Gaudiya Vaisnava institution. Now and for some time the reaction to this extremism has visited us as some kind of irrational anti-Prabhupada phobia. Reaction to illusion is another illusion. How could that be favorable for bhakti? Illusion is illusion and Reality is Reality, no matter what form it comes in. Srila Sridhar Maharaja in Sri Guru and His Grace states: <table class="ddr_steps" id="ddr_steps_0"><tbody><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_1"><td class="num"></td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_1"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_2"><td class="num"> </td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_2"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_3"><td class="num"> </td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_3"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_4"><td class="num"> </td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_4"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_5"><td class="num"> </td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_5"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_6"><td class="num"> </td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_6"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_7"><td class="num"> </td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_7"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_8"><td class="num"> </td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_8"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_9"><td class="num"> </td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_9"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_10"><td class="num"> </td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_10"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_11"><td class="num"> </td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_11"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr><tr class="dirsegment" id="step_0_12"><td class="num"> </td><td class="dirsegtext" id="dirsegtext_0_12"> </td><td class="cbicon"> </td><td class="sdist"> </td></tr></tbody></table>

Lyrics to "Happy Chai" Happy chai to you, until we meet again. Happy chai to you, keep smilin' until then. Who cares about the clouds when we're together? Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather. Happy chai to you, 'till we meet again. Some chais are spicy ones, Others are blue. It's the way you ride the trail that counts, Here's a happy chai for you. Happy chai to you, until we meet again. Happy chai to you, keep smilin' until then. Who cares about the clouds when we're together? Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather. Happy chai to you, 'till we meet again. Alternate Devotional Verse: Happy chai to you, it's great to say "haribol". And to share with you the jaya we've come to know. It started on the day that we met Caitanya, He came into our hearts and then he freed us. For a life that's true, a happy jaya to you. Hari Bol Club Rules: 1. Be neat and clean. 2. Be courteous and polite. 3. Always obey your parents. 4. Protect the weak and help them. 5. Be brave but never take chances. 6. Study the sastrahard and learn all you can. 7. Be kind to animals and never eat them. 8. Eat all your food and never waste any. 9. Love Guru and go to Sunday Feast regularly. 10. Always respect our flag and our country.

The last paragraph of Bhagavad Gita As It Is, by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada : And let there be only one topic on Audarya Fellowship, Spiritual Discussions, "How have we fallen into this Material World?" (Added by The Committee For Spiritual Suicide)

Bob Dylan I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine I dreamed I saw St. Augustine, Alive as you or me, Tearing through these quarters In the utmost misery, With a blanket underneath his arm And a coat of solid gold, Searching for the very souls Whom already have been sold. "Arise, arise," he cried so loud, In a voice without restraint, "Come out, ye gifted kings and queens And hear my sad complaint. No martyr is among ye now Whom you can call your own, So go on your way accordingly But know you're not alone." I dreamed I saw St. Augustine, Alive with fiery breath, And I dreamed I was amongst the ones That put him out to death. Oh, I awoke in anger, So alone and terrified, I put my fingers against the glass And bowed my head and cried. 1968; renewed 1996 Dwarf Music

I got the Eternal Present for X-mas instead of an X-Box, Mate! Now I can go back to the future at least it me mind. (I'm gonna watch the movie with the family today). I think I'm going to celebrate New Years 1927 on Long Island, New York. I'll be careful not to preach to those people because I don't want to change history! Happy New Year Mate and a non-alcoholic grog toast to all the blokes and blokarinis down under! I Dreamed I Saw Srila Jiva Goswami I dreamed I saw Srila Jiva Goswami, Alive as you or me, Tearing through these quarters In the utmost separation ecstasy, With a chader underneath his arm And a kopin of so very old, Searching for the very souls Whom already have been sold. "Arise, arise," he cried so loud, In a voice without restraint, "Come out, ye gifted kings and queens And hear my sad complaint. No acarya is among ye now Whom you can call your own, So go on your way accordingly But know you're not alone." I dreamed I saw Srila Jiva Goswami, Alive with fragrent breath, And I dreamed I was amongst the ones That misinterpreted him to death. Oh, I awoke in anger, So alone and terrified, I put my fingers against the lassi glass And bowed my head and cried.

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